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UnChristian: What A New Generation Thinks About Christianity . . . And Why It Matters

Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:12:59 PM PDT

Cross Posted from Future Majority

I finally finished reading UnChristian: What a New Generation Thinks About Christianity . . . And Why It matters.   It was a difficult read.  In the past I’ve reported on the exodus of young evangelicals away from Bush and the Republican Party, and the shift in focus of young evangelicals from culture war topics like abortion and gay marriage, and towards more community and social justice oriented work on issues of poverty and climate change.  I picked up the book hoping for a glimpse into how young people are changing the church along these lines.  These issues were only addressed tangentially in the book.

Instead, I got a full-throated defense of the most rigid interpretations of Evangelical Christianity and a market research-based attempt to rebrand Christianity among the general US populace, with a strong focus on capturing Millennials and Gen Xers (what the authors calls "mosaics" and "busters’).  

In essence, the authors, after extensive quantitative and qualitative research, identify six negative qualities most commonly associated with Christianity.  These are: that evangelicals are hypocrites who do not practice what they preach, they are only focused on a superficial "saving" of others souls rather than real connection, empathy and communication, they are anti-homosexual, they are sheltered and ignorant of the real world, they are too political, and they are judgmental.  In most instances, the authors assume that evangelicals themselves must accept responsibility for these negative "perceptions," which are due to their own failure to practice what they preach and live up to the teachings of Jesus.  This failure is the meaning of the books title, UnChristian.

It was extremely disorienting, being in the head of someone holding religious and social views so at odds with my own, even more so in that I’m a Millennial and the research and tactics the authors discuss are designed to make their brand of Christianity more appealing to me.   In particular, this manifested itself in two ways – or two tensions – that are present throughout the book

The first is between altering the general public’s perceptions of Christians and altering the lives of Christians themselves to more accurately reflect the values they preach and the teachings of Jesus.  At times the authors seem to be arguing for a fundamental revolution in how Christians live the Word and use themselves as examples of what they preach.  At other times they seem to be arguing for cosmetic or tactical changes - slicker PR to revitalize a dying brand.

The second tension is between that lived, altered, Christian life and the actual values of those they are trying to convert.  In some ways, these are fundamentally at odds no matter how much those in the church change their own lifestyle.  Gay marriage and homosexuality as a "lifestyle" are the two most prominent examples of this in the text.  No matter how much young people’s values change, the Church’s don’t.  The authors may argue for greater compassion and empathy for the GLBT community – essentially hate the sin, love the sinner – but at the end of the day the church and its practitioners are splitting hairs.  The sinner and the sin are one and the same and the GLBT community, and its friends, peers, supporters in the younger generations don’t see any sin at all.  Until the Church comes to that recognition, all their attempts at empathy really will be just so much PR.

Despite my fundamental disagreements with much of the author’s world view, the book is a wealth of demographic and opinion data, and contains a number of smart tactical ideas that could be applied to any persuasion campaign.

Among the findings:

Perceptions of Christianity among 18 – 29 year olds

BeliefOutsidersChurchgoers
antihomosexual91%80%
judgmental87%52%
hypocrtical85%47%
too political75%50%
Out of touch72%32%



Outsiders vs. Churchgoers on Homosexuality (% Who Believe the following to be a "major" problem in America)
DemographicHomosexual LifestylesPolitical Efforts of Homosexual Activists
All Adults35%35%
Mosaic and Buster Outsiders17%18%
Mosaic and Buster Churchgoers29%33%
Boomer Churchgoers46%44%
Elder Churchgoers58%52%


Young Adults Are Concerned about Conservative Christians in Politics

Mosaic/BustersBoomers/Elders
Outsiders62%48%
Born-Again47%40%


Mosaics and Busters - More Skeptical that Churches are Loving Environments

Mosaics and BustersBoomers
Outsiders51%41%
Church-goers38%23%



Percent Who Agree that the Bible Should Determine the Laws Of Our Country
AgePercent
18 - 2922%
30 - 4933%
50 - 6432%
Over 6444%

These numbers are extraordinary.  And while the authors see them as a sign that Christianity is in trouble and needs a serious shot in the arm to revitalize itself, I see a chance - offered by Millennials and Gen Xers, or Mosaics and Busters as the author calls them - to move beyond the culture wars that have entangled our politics for so long.   There is clear movement among the younger generations away from the christian conservative politics of the past.

By about 20 percentage points, young born-again Christians (21 – 44) are more accepting of cohabitation, sex outside of a marriage and a variety of other "cultural" issues.  The evangelical movement seems to be fighting a losing battle.  Look at the charts; more young people perceive Christian conservative activism to be a greater problem than GLBT activism.  According to the authors, for every 100 young people who are not born-again by the time they are 18, only 6 will make the conversion later in their lifetime.  Perhaps most significantly, the authors predict that an equal number of born-again Christians will vote for Democrats in 2008 as Republicans.

Ultimately, the authors and I fundamentally disagree on the meaning of these numbers.  Where they see a problem to be solved, I see a trend in tolerance to be nurtured and encouraged.  In one instance, though, we are united in our view.  Where as they see it as incumbent upon believers to take the more tolerant, community oriented and diverse views of today's youth seriously in an attempt to engage them in a real conversation (that eventually leads back to the Church), I think that progressives must take the religious views of these more progressive churchgoers seriously and engage them in our own conversations.  Their numbers may be shrinking but it is in their power to move  the political activism of Christians in a direction that is more in line with progressive, social justice ideas.  That's an encouraging thought and certainly a conversation worth having.

Tags: evangelicals, christianity, youth, millennials, books (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 79 comments

    •  This is a very, very fascinating diary. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ice Blue

      Thanks so much for bringing this book to our attention - lots to chew over here.

      Also, good to meet you in San José this weekend at the CDP convention.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:16:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Great diary. (7+ / 0-)

      I see modern Christianity as a dying religion ripe for dramatic re-interpretation -- or extinction.  The canon and traditional interpretation are at odds with modern thought, and the Evangelical interpretation is laden with Taliban-esque land-mines that make it inappropriate as a moral guideline in a pluralistic society.

      Personally, the more people I see leave the Church, the better.  Christianity is a deeply flawed religion, and while there are obvious exceptions to the intellectual malaise that has accompanied Christian thought since the Enlightenment, over-all the Church and the religion have lost the vital spark.  

      But then again I'm a Pagan, so I might be considered biased.

      •  People have been saying that for decades, (3+ / 0-)

        if not millenia.  

        •  I think statitstics do show (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          pinkhighway

          a gradual decline in Christian belief over the past century.

          "You can't negotiate with reality" - James Kunstler

          by Bob Love on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:40:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Very hard to measure such things. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            wondering if

            Church-going may be going down, belief in some things like the virgin birth or physical resurrection may be declining, but the US is still an intensely religious society -- and Christianity has had and continues to have an immense influence here.  People who think "science" has replaced religion in this country are kidding themselves.  Materialism and consumerism maybe, but there's a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction underlying that.  I'm pretty sure Christianity is not going anywhere any time soon.

            •  Perhaps not but.... (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Kaina PDX, kalmoth

              ....half a century ago, the rate of church attendance in Canada was higher than it is in the United States. Now, it's well below twenty per cent, and that includes all religions, not just Christians.

              Organized religion thrives on fear, pain, and hopelessness. Put in universal medical insurance and see how fast the religious sentiments of the American people fade. They won't take the "opium of the people" unless there's no other choice.

      •  I'm nearly pagan, but I love my UU church. (4+ / 0-)

        Such a wonderful community of intelligent, kind, and like-minded individuals.  Pagans welcome! ;-)

        "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

        by Pandoras Box on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:32:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right, don't join an organized religion - join UU (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box

          My own Unitarian church needs a bit more pagan expression, I think.  At least a drumming circle -- and maybe something covenish as well.  Have you managed anything with yours?  I've been enjoying soaking up the diversity, but I think I'd like a more focused pagan practice, too.

          •  we used to have drumming circles (0+ / 0-)

            but they seemed to fade in the first year I was there.  we have had a recent surge in visitors and new members, and i am hoping we can see some new circles rise up

            "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

            by Pandoras Box on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:26:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Christianity is a tremendous force for good too (5+ / 0-)

        It is tempting to throw it all away given how the most publicly visible "Christians" have been behaving the past several years.

        But do not confuse these crooks for what more mainstream churches have been quietly carrying on the whole time: feeding the hungry, supporting the less fortunate, taking in refugees, etc.

        Most of such privately funded social work is done by Christian organizations.

        We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

        by CA Libertarian on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:57:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  fear factors (5+ / 0-)

      The fundamental problem is that the entire religious right is operating on the basis of fear.  Theologically speaking this is truly odd, since Jesus' two commandments were to love God and love thy neighbor.  Psychologically, fear and love are polar opposite emotions.  One could say that the religious right is a heretical deviation and is also emotionally ill.  

      Also, as it turns out, research shows that the most homophobic males also demonstrate measurable physical arousal (erections as measured with the penile plethysmograph, similar to a blood pressure monitor) in response to gay porn.  This is very interesting: ordinarily these guys would be garden variety homophobes, but put them into a religious context and what you get is the obsession with gay marriage and passing Jim Crow laws.  Seems to me what these guys are terrified of is themselves.  

    •  Stay away from today's religion (0+ / 0-)

      except to study and understand what motivates other people to choose that path.

      Be spiritual in a personal way and accept the fact that no man or religion can ever give you the answers you seek concerning truth and God.

      "...one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head."

      by adamsrw on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:05:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I liked the last (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah, Pandoras Box, deepeco

    chart especially.  Separation of Church and state might just survive after all, as political power moves out of the hands of older generations and into that of younger generations.

    Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

    by drbloodaxe on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:22:09 PM PDT

  •  Most Christian speech I've heard in a while... (12+ / 0-)

    ...was Barack Obama's speech on race.

    Instead of throwing his pastor under the bus, he forgave him.

    Instead of throwing his white grandmother under the bus, he chose to love her.

    And he urged compassion from all - understanding of the racially biased environments we have all grown up in.  That's also about not being hypocritical.

    These are core Christian values, and Barack expressed them beautifully.

    Hate and intolerance are not Christian values.

    The religious right has had it all wrong.

    We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

    by CA Libertarian on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:26:26 PM PDT

  •  This New Christianity Has Been Massively Corporat (7+ / 0-)

    for over a generation.

    I first saw it in the 70's with the so-called "non" denominational campus groups, leaving no term available to apply to them except "Christian" even though for all practical purposes they're southern Baptists.

    By the 80's the rise of televangelism, Republican sponsorship for political purposes and natural market forces had made this movement what I'd call a commercial cult.

    Everyone should visit a megachurch some Sunday and just look around. As a musician I'm in them periodically and for years and years I've seen a caliber of organization I don't see anywhere else.

    Yet another unfolding aspect of the evolving society that our system is completely unprepared to deal with.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:33:33 PM PDT

    •  Anti - Mega Church (8+ / 0-)

      What was very interesting about the book I read was that the authors were adamantly against the mega-church/televangelist movement.

      They see it as unnecessarily diluting the principles of the Bible.  In some respects they seemed to be fighting for the soul of their church against folks like Joel Osteen.

      Now, I don't know how receptive or how effective a vehicle mega churches can be for the kind of christian activism I describe in my final paragraphs, but the authors of this book clearly saw them as a danger/enemy/corrupting influence.

      •  I've noticed something of the same thing (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        anotherdemocrat

        in my now-going-to-be-former SBC home church. Particularly with Osteen. I think the preacher nearly had things thrown at him one Sunday for mentioning he'd meaningfully listened or read something by him.

        •  That guy is bad news (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          anotherdemocrat

          He's the Gordon Gecko of the religious world....greed is good.

          •  Must Disagree (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sagesource

            I'm rabid anti-christian and follow the rise of new televangelists.  Joel Osteen general messages have legitimate value.  Very rarely have I listened to his speeches and found him to be teaching wrongheaded values.

            Generally, he seems to be focused on personal responsibility and paying attention to interior self-talk.  These are valuable lessons.  It's always odd when he ends his speech with biblical quotes and praying for salvation.  Perhaps I haven't watched enough Joel, but I find him to be a decent Christian and I'm cool with him.

            The other shoe dropping is that Mega churches and born-agains were waist deep in the sub-prime lending culture of greed.  Many, many congregations are completely fucked due to some preacher, or other member helping them buy a home "through the bounty of God's Kingdom" and realize they made a Faustian deal.

            Ye Reap what Ye Sows.

            •  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one (0+ / 0-)

              Most of his speeches have the "you will be rich" thread to connect them.  he couches it in "religious terms", but all he really provides is someone telling people they will be rich.  Everyone wants to hear that, even though it's not true.  He is one of the most dangerous of these "televangelists"...he preys on people's greed.

              •  I disagree (0+ / 0-)

                He's teaching people about the common hangups that result in self-sabotage.  I agree there is a Ton Robbins element to him, but I'm pretty sure that he means rich in the sense of spiritual wealth, peace of mind.  I think all of us can agree that peace of mind is a real treasure.

                Again... I'm so far from a christian... I am quite profoundly most christians worst enemy... mainly because I believe that there are moral lesson and process that are out there to be discovered but absolutely no basis for declaring oneself as a follower of any deity other than the god in yourself.  

                I've seen other Televangelists having Corvettes and Ferrarri's onstage talking about how Jesus is there co-pilot.  Real "get Jesus, get Rich" types were huge about 4-5 years ago... unfortunately for them and their followers they were deep into RE and Sub Prime and now they are all F*Ked.  Joel is getting popular because he's going back to basic on how to understand your own feelings and actions and how you percieve yourself in the world.  

                I haven't watched him more than 3 times in the last year and maybe 12-15 times in 5 years (and even then only about 5-10 minutes to satisfy the curiosity)  Joel is the only televangelist that is not actively trying to mindfuck the flock in my opinion.

    •  There's not enough room on this monitor... (5+ / 0-)

      ...to cite all the Biblical passages which become problematic for a televangelist/megachurch founder who becomes wealthy running such a church.

      But I'll mention one anyway.

      Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'"

      The tale of Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the temple occurs in all the Gospels.  It's the only time Jesus is ever said to have gotten angry.  And what he's angry about is clear - it's about people personally profiting off the church.

      We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan

      by CA Libertarian on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:43:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  85% see mainstream Christianity as hypocritical (5+ / 0-)

        and for good reason.  If Christ were to come down from those bland paintings, he just might slap someone.

      •  Back in the Day Metal Bands Gave us the Score (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        anotherdemocrat

        Send me your Money

        Welcome to the church of Suicidal
        We'll have a service and wonderful recital
        But before we go on, there's something I must mention
        An important message I must bring to your attention
        I was in meditation and prayer last night
        I was awakened by a shining bright light
        Over head, a glorious spirit
        He gave me a message and you all need to hear it
        "Send me your money", that's what he said
        He said to "Send me your money"
        Now if you can only send a dollar or two
        There aint a hell of alot I can do for you
        But, if you want to see heaven's door
        Make a check out for five hundred or more
        "Send me your money", do you here what I'm saying?
        "Send me your money"

        Now give me some bass, um yea that's how he likes it
        Now give me some silence, for all you sinners
        Now give me some bass, yea that was funky
        Now take them on home Brother Clark, send me your ...money

        Here comes another con hiding behind a collar
        His only god is the almighty dollar
        He aint no prophet, he aint no healer
        He's just a two bit goddamn money stealer
        Send me your money
        Send it, you got to send it
        Send me your money
        You hear what I'm saying?
        Send it, send it
        Send me your money
        Now how much you give is your own choice
        But to me it's the difference between a prosche and a Rolls
        Royce
        I want you to make it hurt when you dig into your pocket
        I want you to make it hurt!
        We'll take cash, we'll take checks
        We'll take credit cards, we'll take jewelry
        We'll take your momma's dentures if they got gold in them
        So whose gonna be the next king of the fakers
        Whose gonna take the place of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker?
        See my momma, she didn't raise no fool
        Cause you can't put a price on a miracle
        Amen

        Moneystealers got smart and got into the recording business... Rememerr when Britney and the rest were all packaged and sold as good Christian girls...  Right now there is a new music revolution going on with Trance/House/DnB/Electro seeping deeper into Pop Music... Guess who was dancing to Harder Better Faster Stonger a few years back?

        I got into Techno from Metal... and watching a ex Metal guitarist play a 3 hour psychedelic trance set with a guitar drum machine and laptop forever ended the debate of whether this computer stuff is music...

        And though I digress music has and will continue to be the undoing of Religion.    

    •  Recruitment vs. retention (3+ / 0-)

      Everyone should visit a megachurch some Sunday and just look around. As a musician I'm in them periodically and for years and years I've seen a caliber of organization I don't see anywhere else.

      There was an article in Christian Century a few weeks back that discussed the growing numbers of people joining mainline churches who came from mega-churches.  

      These people may first be drawn to a mega-church's organization and message, then over time they come to find them superficial and long for something deeper and more encouraging to the thought process, which they find among Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians: the very churches the IRD has been trying to undermine.

      I wish I could put my hands on the issue; it was quite interesting.

      There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who know binary and those who don't. (-5.25, -4.97)

      by JBL55 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:28:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The bottom line appears to be (11+ / 0-)

    that the old-line anti-gay fulminators are slowly dying off. That's welcome news, to be honest.

    This is the way it's always been: the old guard slowly caves under the pressure of cultural change, and heal-dragging "conservatives" struggle to catch up only when the money and votes start to dry up.

    That's how it was with civil rights, inter-racial marriage, cohabitation outside marriage, feminism and now gay rights (and, I think, immigration).

    I find it astonishing that over the past couple of decades so many "conservatives" have caved on most gay rights issues, agreeing now (as they did not then) that gays should have the same rights in hiring, housing, public office, hospital visitation, etc., and they're now left trying to hold the line at gay marriage.

    This is the type that used to think Social Security and  Medicare were a socialist conspiracy, and now they accept both because the nation grew past them. These people have always tried to block the door. They bitch and moan when America finally tramples them, but they never seem to rethink any of their ideological preconceptions. To which I say "Too fucking bad".

    "You can't negotiate with reality" - James Kunstler

    by Bob Love on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:39:05 PM PDT

    •  It's also about minority control. (5+ / 0-)

      The ultra-conservative takeover of the SBC now aimed at the mainline denominations through the IRD et al is based on minority control of churches and denominations.

      They took over the SBC by exploiting the system, often bussing people in to vote. Their standard MO when taking over a church is to locate conservatives who are still on the rolls, even if they haven't set foot in the church in years.

      They accurately reflect the mindset in the republican party today--winning at all costs. The takeover of the SBC was heartbreaking for many, many people. Careers were ended and families were hurt in the turmoil. It was a pure power grab at the expense of people living harmoniously with each other--kinda like a religious version of Yugoslavia.

      Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

      by homogenius on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:19:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sounds like a hostile takeover (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        homogenius, anotherdemocrat

        of Christian churches. I've heard of this before.

        You can bet the new "owners" will strip these churches of all their tangible assets to pad the wallets of their directors.

        "You can't negotiate with reality" - James Kunstler

        by Bob Love on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:24:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  church assets (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Bob Love, homogenius

          This is the thing keeping many United Methodist churches from leaving. These horrible anti-gay rules get passed & decisions handed down, but the individual churches that are against what is happening can't just decide to not be Methodist any more, because the buildings are owned by the Church as a whole.

          The General Conference, meeting every 4 years to make major decisions, is at the end of this month. There is talk of splitting up, in various forms. Several people I know are planning to protest & get arrested. Wish I could go but it is the weekend of the Ride I'm training for.

      •  It's still going on in the SBC. (0+ / 0-)

        I didn't know there was a way to steeple-jack us anymore than we already were.

        Then one of the youth leaders started using phrases only pentecostals use. And there was a new church motto which was suddenly in every sermon. And the homophobia that had occasionally leaked into the sunlight was suddenly in every single sermon.

        Don't think that just because a denomination was steeple-jacked that the member churches can't get ven more steeple-jacked.

  •  The book is DEFINITELY worth reading (6+ / 0-)

    And your comment:

    Instead, I got a full-throated defense of the most rigid interpretations of Evangelical Christianity and a market research-based attempt to rebrand Christianity among the general US populace, with a strong focus on capturing Millennials and Gen Xers (what the authors calls "mosaics" and "busters’).  

    Completely on the mark!

    What makes the book meaningful is that the research done is excellent. Keeping in mind the data that is in there is definitely important. Ultimately, the data would be no surprise to any progressive Christian, as it was pretty much what we could have told you about the right wing and how their hijacking of the word "Christian" has made our faith perceived anyway.

    But, what the author was trying to do was basically re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. If he wanted to not have people see what he calls Christianity (which I don't find very Christian) as not being anti-gay, for example, he wouldn't have used the term 'lifestyle' to describe gay people, but he did so nearly 20 times in that chapter. "Homosexual activist?" What is this, 1965?

    He just can't see that the problem isn't how his theology is perceived, but rather that his theology is the problem. If he doesn't want it to be perceived as anti-gay, well, then he should stop being anti-gay ... but that point was completely lost on him. And it was, as well, on other issues.

    •  I almost got and read it when it came out. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ohwilleke, homogenius

      I have something deep inside me that distrusts anyone who sticks their books in normal chain bookstores with shrinkwrap, unless there is a disk inside.

      UnChristian comes shrinkwrapped.

      I may have to locate a copy of this, now, if only for the potential language usage analysis.

  •  the liberality will fade with age (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jay w

    The younger generation is always a bit more liberal, but it toughens up with age. The differences in views between elders, bommers and the young might not be signs of generation shifts in mentaility, as much as a reflection of the hardening of views with aging.

    Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

    by Marcion on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 12:57:00 PM PDT

    •  It might be a bit of both (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Marcion

      time will tell.

    •  That's just not so (5+ / 0-)

      Michael Connery himself has on other occasions produced overwhelming evidence to suggest that the older generations never were this liberal - that elders and boomers haven't changed at all over time but instead have carried relatively consistent beliefs across the decades.

      Our generation - the millennials - is more liberal than any recent generation was at this age point. The stats cited in this diary are further proof of this.

      In other words, Churchill was wrong.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:01:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what about all the sex and drugs? (0+ / 0-)

        Seems like these people were having a lot of sex and doing a lot of drugs in the 60s and 70s. Obviously not all, but there was clearly a very large number of fairly liberated people in the previous generation.

        Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

        by Marcion on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:07:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  In my case it's a change. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene, anotherdemocrat

      The difference between me and my elders both in family and in church is extensive. And it's in places that aren't going to shift without massive changes in who I am willing to call friend.

      I figured out last year that in order for me to become a Biblical inerrantist (the official SBC line on Biblical accuracy), there would actually have to be an in-between period of total and complete atheism for it to have any hope of sticking.

    •  Not what happened in the UK (4+ / 0-)

      All those secular youths grew up to be secular adults and a generation and a half later, about 40% of Brits don't believe in God, while less than 50% do believe in God (percentages per this week's edition of the Economist).  In contrast, in the U.S., 10% of those surveyed don't believe in God and more than 80% do.

      Also notable is that recent data from Pew shows that non-religious is a religious identity with the most net conversion in, while many Christian denominations such as Catholicism show high levels of net conversions out.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

      by ohwilleke on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:23:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Latest research indicates the opposite is true: (0+ / 0-)

      link

      By comparing surveys of various age groups taken over a span of more than 30 years, sociologists found that in general, Americans' opinions veer toward the liberal as they grow older.

      "All the evidence we have found refutes the idea that as people age their attitudes become more conservative or more rigid," said Nicholas Danigelis, a sociologist at the University of Vermont. "It's just not true. More people are changing in a liberal direction than in a conservative direction."

      Now that's just one study, and I can't imagine that it properly takes into account the political events over the past 30 years; you'd have to compare several long term studies over a much longer period of time to firm up the conclusion.

    •  It depends on the cause. (0+ / 0-)

      One of my close friends isn't going to magically become not gay. One of my family's acquaintances targeted apparently for leaving the 'wrong kind of bar' is not going to magically get un-shot, much as I wish he had been alive for even thirty minutes of my life because I dearly wish that I could talk to him for even just that long.

      I'm not going to forget the things I learned in science class. I'm not going to forget all the really cool stuff I found during the years I tried to make Genesis and the Big Bang + evolution fit together.

      And so long as all that is true, I'm not going to become a Biblical inerrantist and be counted as a good little Christian with a good little Christian's worldview according to the people who write books like UnChristian.

  •  Sounds like we're ripe for a revival. (5+ / 0-)

    An out of touch, reactionary (un-Christ-like) old guard and a discontented new generation.  Christianity has been scooped up and revived any number of times in the past, occasionally even for progressive reasons (e.g. abolitionism, liberation theology).  I fantasize that young Christians will actually take back the churches in the name of other Christian values like social justice, anti-materialism, environmental stewardship, brotherhood of humankind and so on.  God (sic) knows we need the help . . . .

    •  Usually the groups that (0+ / 0-)

      take over the formal institutions and real estate end up floundering, while those squeezed out end up propsering.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

      by ohwilleke on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:29:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Christianity (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sagesource

    ..ain't for me because of a few small details I don't buy into, specifically 1) Supreme Beings, 2) Souls, and 3) the Afterlife.

  •  Time to bury this fraud (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sagesource

    It is about time people woke up to the fraud of Christianity, which fills its coffers like any other scammer, by promising fictional rewards that cannot be checked.

    The negativity is well-deserved. Christianity is a relic of the past that deserves to be buried, having done much more harm than good for ages.

    Perhaps in this election the worst of the fanatics will get a lot of publicity.McCain's advisers are simply evil and need to be exposed.

    Don't you think John McCain looks tired?

    by MakeChessNotWar on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 01:25:08 PM PDT

  •  "a dying brand" (0+ / 0-)

    Well, you got that one pegged dead on.

    Last summer, I had the privilege to hear some excellent public lectures on Christianity put on by the Vancouver School of Theology summer school. The overwhelming impression that remains of the cultivated, educated, but somehow enervated speakers was, "Well, now I know what it was like to listen to a priest of Apollo or Athene around 300 A.D." They were fading, and they knew it, but didn't know what to do about it.

    •  Give Christianity some credit (0+ / 0-)

      It can't be an accident that the rise of parliamentary systems, public education and all of the benefits that flow from widespread literacy and a free press coincided with the Protestant Reformation. Unlike Islam or Buddhism, Christianity experienced a reformation in which its sacred book was translated into everyday languages and that sparked our civilization, whatever its many faults. Everything began when the first protestants formed the idea that the individual had to be literate enough to interpret the Bible and not just listen to official jibber-jabber that he couldn't understand - which is sadly still the case in many a temple, church, mosque or lamasery.
       Even atheism began with that invitation to literacy, since one man's interpretation be "Hey, this Bible is bullshit." Not something you're going to hear from, say, someone who makes a living off the Quran or whatever the favored scripture may be.
       So let's give Christianity, and in particular the great founders of protestantism Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, George Fox,John Wesley et al some credit, despite the asinine performances of current preachers, priests & pedophiles.

      •  Not buying that (0+ / 0-)

        That's the kind of facile analysis that sounds good, but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny, if your point is that there is something inherent about Christianity that gives rise to Western-style democracy.  By your own analysis, it was the advent of the printing press, not Christianity.  They could have been printing the Koran or Julia Child recipes, if the point is that people started to read and that sparked parlimentary systems.

        I guess you would completely discount non-Christian civilizations, like China, for example.

        No, there is nothing inherently better to Christianity than any other religion or belief system.  Our society may be the result of people who happened to be Christian, but to suggest that "Christianity" deserves credit is a bit much.

        •  I would say that the texts opened to Christians (0+ / 0-)

          by the Reformation allowed literate individuals to find in the words of Jesus, in particular, a guide to compassion and fair treatment for all people.    
             Every word of the Quran is attributed directly to God and this makes it difficult to discount any of it - which must be done if one is to take the ethics of Jesus seriously and discard the more rabid comments of Paul and a lot of the Old Testament.
            Buddhism, which I also love, is really just too inward-looking to have sparked the kind of changes that occurred during and after the Protestant Reformation. You might say that it is "faith not works" that carries the day in Buddhism but in Christianity there is really no way to get away from responsibilities to one's neighbors on the earth.
            I am talking here, of course, of the developmental effect of a given scripture on a wide population, not its tendency to help individual people to lead moral lives

      •  Actually, a better argument could be made that (0+ / 0-)

        Islam sparked western civilization, via the Iberian peninsula.  In the late medieval period, European science, music, etc evolved out of the Arabian influence through Spain.

        •  my point was about the "sacred" texts (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          skrekk

          of Christianity vs the other major religions. True, Islam offered much to Europe but not its sacred text. And Islam, I would say, failed to evolve because of the limitations not only of the Quran (it's hard to question the very words of God) but also by its continuing commitment to a sacred language. People talk and think best in their mother tongue, not in some lingo imported from a previous ancient civilization.
           And it is the very nature of the Quran that it cannot be translated into local languages. If one believes that God said every word in the Quran in Arabic, it would make no sense to translate it. Even the early Christians who read the first gospels in Greek knew that Jesus was not a greek. This set up the possibility for questioning the words of the scripture that never existed in Islam.
           
             

          •  On the other hand, the poor translations of the (0+ / 0-)

            Classics resulted in many centuries of darkness in the Western European countries as a fundamental misunderstanding of the basic concepts of Greek thoughts pervaded. It wasn't until the Fall of the Byzantine Empire that some fleeing Classicists set up shop in Venice and brought with them the originals in the original (by then dead language) that the fundamentals of the Renaissance began.

            Look at these people! They suck each other! They eat each other's saliva and dirt! -- Tsonga people of southern Africa on Europeans kissing.

            by upstate NY on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 05:55:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The has been passed around. (0+ / 0-)

        The early Islamic empire was far more dominant than the U.S. is today in geopolitics and rivaled the Roman empire that preceded it in sophistication.  It not only was important for preserving classical learning, but also advanced that knowledge.

        Buddhism likewise had its Golden Age.

        A more far statement might be that new religious movements tend to sweep away the rot that accumulated in their predecessors, leaving room in the intellectual landscape for new ideas.

        "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

        by ohwilleke on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 04:58:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What is a "Millennial?" n/t (0+ / 0-)

    There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese

    by thepdxbikerboy on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 02:07:04 PM PDT

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