Daily Kos

The Breathtaking Hypocrisy Over Florida

Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:56:29 PM PDT

I know that lately Markos has decided that it's convenient to mock and belittle Florida Democrats lately for the sake of the Obama campaign lately, and likewise, the same position has been taken by many other proponents of the Obama campaign.

Yet I did not honestly expect it to involve such a clear abdication of values which had previously been held dear to these same people.  Indeed, almost every plank of the Democratic values system advocated by the likes of Markos, Dean, and Obama, from party unity, to changing the tone, to having every vote count, to the 50-state strategy is compromised in their effort to keep the Florida (and to a lesser extent, Michigan) delegation off of the floor in Denver.

These people need to take a good, hard look at the course of action that they are taking.

Florida House Bill 537

Governor Charlie Crist today signed House Bill 537 that will establish a paper trail for all votes cast in Florida elections. The election-reform legislation will provide optical scan machines for counties that do not already have them for Election Day voting and early voting sites. The legislation also changes the date of Florida's presidential primary to the last Tuesday in January.

In this state in the year 2000, we had huge issues with getting the vote counted and getting it counted accurately.  More importantly, there were far too many loopholes and back-door connections between the Diebold corporation, a lack of paper trails, electronic voting machines, and the Republican party, to ensure that free and fair elections occurred in Florida.  These problems were blatantly prevalent in 2006, keeping Democrat Christine Jennings out of Congress.

Florida Democrats voted in favor of this bill largely because it included this paper trail provision.  I, as a Floridian, would be FAR more upset if they voted against the bill for the sake of following the DNC's inane rules that continuing to leave Florida elections at risk for obstruction.  It's disappointing to see Democrats turn against Democrats in an effort to disenfranchise voters because our elected officials were acting in the best interest of free and fair elections--something that's supposed to be a core Democratic value.

Furthermore, I'm disappointed that persons previously so (rightly) opposed to the disproportionate power wielded by Iowa and New Hampshire in the primary would abandon that cause for the short-term political benefit of one single candidate.

I'm disappointed to see many Democrats rushing like lemmings off of a cliff, running to abandon Florida in the general election and with it most all chances of winning in the fall.  The St. Petersburg Times, largely recognized as the most respectable newspaper here in Florida, conducted a poll to find out how Floridians felt about the entire primary mess.

More than three out of four Florida Democrats say it’s "very important" that Florida’s delegates count toward the nomination, and one in four said they would be less likely to support the ultimate Democratic nominee if Florida’s delegates don’t count.

Like it or not, most Democrats in Florida are Hillary supporters (as evidenced by her landslide victory), and if the Obama campaign and Washington bigwigs intentionally hand the election over to Barack by refusing to seat the Florida delegates, it will seriously depress the efforts and dedication of many, many Florida Democrats.

The 48-state strategy being pursued by the Obama camp and the DNC works against the values of free and fair elections, the values of counting votes, and the values of standing up for our constituents.

Floridian Democrats want their delegates seated, they do NOT feel that the primary was in any way illegitimate (including the lack of campaigning--and furthermore, the only TV ad I ever saw here was for Obama), and the Democratic Party simply cannot afford to damage its chances in this state the way that Markos, Obama, and Dean are promoting.  It's politically irresponsible to the interests of Florida voters and to the Democratic Party in the fall; the proponents of intentionally slighting these voters for the sake of hurting Hillary Clinton ought to be ashamed of their abandonment of their values, their fellow Democrats, and their fellow Americans.

Poll

What to do about Florida?

11%21 votes
55%104 votes
32%61 votes

| 186 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Florida, Florida Primary (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 176 comments

  •  Tip Jar (12+ / 0-)

    For those of you who don't want to hurt me after reading this.

    Hillary Clinton 2008

    by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:57:31 PM PDT

  •  You lost me at... (22+ / 0-)

    (as evidenced by her landslide victory)

    I'm a Clinton supporter, and I would hardly call what happened in Florida a "landslide victory".

    •  I made it further (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Trix, highacidity, Gator Keyfitz

      up to

      they do NOT feel that the primary was in any way illegitimate

      I think I even remember Floridians saying otherwise here.  The whole "Americans want" or "Democrats think" or "the People demand" approach always seems a bit much of an assumption for me.  

      •  I bailed out at "disenfranchisement".... (0+ / 0-)

        the new #1 most misused and dishonest word in this entire campaign.

        Let the word go forth from this time and place...that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--Obama '08

        by Azdak on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:20:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Fair? With no campaigning? (0+ / 0-)

      A lot your arguments are sound, but without campaigning, it is not "fair".

    •  Tiki lost me at (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      AlanF, highacidity, Gator Keyfitz

      ...mock and belittle Florida Democrats...

      I'm a lifelong Floridian, and a registered Democrat even longer (back in the old days you could do that in Fla.).

      But I'm a Democrat who believes in the principles laid out in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, which means that most days I feel like a Tibetan in Beijing.

      Florida is where old Republicans come to die. Way too many Fla. Democrats behave more like contrarian rightwingers than principled or even partisan Democrats, and it's been that way since I first served as Democratic precinct captain (and the only person in my precinct to vote for Shirley Chisholm in the 1972 primary).

      We have a long way to go to change Florida from the Bush league into something approaching a democratic state. As much as it stings to read references to Fla. Democrats by real Democrats, I think Markos (and all the rest) have been going easy on us. Corruption---criminal and ethical---is endemic in Florida, and until we Floridians mount a substantial and sustained campaign to root it out, we'll continue to play the role of Republican Party Steppin Fetchits.

      That's what democracy---and the Democratic Party---mean. The bellyaching about the primary vote is bullshit.

      (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

      by doorguy on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:19:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wanna jump on this fast, before (35+ / 0-)

    the conversation devolves. What I don't understand is this: if Florida broke the DNC rules, for which the acknowledge consequenced was the refusal to seat Florida delegates, then why should the DNC, well, retroactively immunize Florida from the consequences of its rule-breaking?

    If we can discuss this without actually mentioning specific candidates, that'd be cool. I honestly don't understand.

    •  'Acknowledge consequenced', btw, (5+ / 0-)

      is my attempt to correct 'acknowledge consequence' by putting the 'd' on the wrong word.

      Talk about consequences.

    •  Thanks, I too enjoy good convo (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GussieFN, Wufacta

      Because compared to the alternative consequences of the DNC's actions, seating the FL delegation is extremely minimal.  The cost of disenfranchising Florida voters, who were put in this position by a Republican controlled state government, is far greater than the cost of going back on threats that really shouldn't have been made in the first place.

      The primary system needs to be completely redone, anyways.  We might as well get started tearing it down, especially when it's in our best interests to do so.

      Hillary Clinton 2008

      by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:04:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Completely Agree (14+ / 0-)

      The issue for me is simple and some have accused my of being simplistic. There were rules. Rules were broken. Consequences were known before the rules were broken. End of discussion.

      What's the point of the rules if they are to be so easily tossed? Don't like them? Change them for the next go round but I really don't get what's not to get.

      •  It's entirely within the rules (0+ / 0-)

        to restore Florida's delegation via the credentials committee. And this has been entirely known at the time, including when the rules were laid down. Entirely within the rules.

        •  Very true (0+ / 0-)

          And my hunch is that even many of the Clinton supporters on the credentials committee will vote in favor of punishing Florida (e.g. Ickes)

        •  The problem with that is that you are still left (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Nellcote

          with a bullshit election and distorted results. I understand it is not a black and white issue, but I haven't seen a solution yet that is both practical and fair. I understand why some people disagree with the "they broke the rules--screw 'em" argument. But, IMO, the "accept the results as is" is equally wrong, regardless of which candidate you support. Like something I saw written before, accepting these results is like counting a touchdown that was scored by a bunch of kids playing around at halftime during a football game.

          Whatever solution is ultimately determined, to me there are a couple of conditions that are non-negotiable: 1)superdelegates in FL and MI should be not be allowed a vote under any circumstances; 2) any delegate solution should wait until after all other primaries have been completed--personally, I don't think these contests should have any effect on the ultimate outcome; 3) the popular votes should not count at all.

          One other thing to consider: I understand the concerns about "turning off" FL dems and making it harder to win FL in the general. However, pulling some underhanded maneuver will not be without consequences either. Giving Clinton the nomination based on an illegitimate FL primary could cost you Illinois and you would be almost back where you started.

          Let the word go forth from this time and place...that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--Obama '08

          by Azdak on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:44:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  haha it won't cost her (0+ / 0-)

            Illinois. Unless a bunch of people are stupid enough to vote primary vendetta instead of the future of the country.

            I don't see how the Florida election results were 'distorted'. The voters weren't 'a bunch of kids' they were the real voters. And it wasn't halftime, it was playtime. There was an expectation that there was a good chance that the delegations would be seated. So if you told a football team they'd play this game and there would be a 25% chance the outcome would be decisive on them making it into the next playoff round (say depending on the result of some other game), they'd play as hard as they could, right? All the candidates were on an even playing field, so there was no distortion (if anything it was BO running ads in Florida on the eve of the primary). You're talking about disenfranchising 2 million people.

    •  Here's an argument without mentioning specific (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GussieFN, ArtfromMI

      candidates: Florida has 27 electoral votes. The next President decides the future of the country. Even if you think we can't win Florida (which is questionable given that it's second best to VA in polling for the current Dem delegate leader) , it could still be decisive to compete there and make the GOP spend money there.

      •  Here's the thing. As a single mother, if I've... (13+ / 0-)

        ...learned nothing else, it's that you have to be consistent once you put a rule in place.

        We bend the rules, and why should ANY state listen to the party leadership? Fact is, if they let them break the rules this time, nobody will take them seriously again.

        Further, as a resident of Texas, a state that has been consistently marginalized in the primary process, I can't even begin to tell you how much various states' attempts to move their primary elections or caucuses earlier and earlier in a bid to have a bigger say irritates the rest of us.

        And Florida's Democrats played a bigger role in making the move-forward decision than simply serving as helpless, bystanding putty in Republicans' hands. Check out the video Kos posted as proof.

        Frankly, I don't know what the answer here is. But I do feel strongly that all of the states, and all of the candidates, knew the rules of the game before the game started. To pretend that they didn't because it's now expedient to do so is, to put it politely, the Tuzla two-step.

        "Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

        by Melody Townsel on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:24:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I admit that I do wonder if (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          highacidity, Elise, Melody Townsel, ER Doc

          my complete agreement with you is due in part to the fact that I've got a three year old. And as far as I can tell, good parenting is composed of three parts consistent rules and consequences, one part fascination with all things excretory, and seven parts laughter.

        •  Condescending idiocy (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Wufacta
          As a single mother, if I've learned nothing else, it's that you have to be consistent once you put a rule in place.

          Here's the problem - Florida is not a two year old toddler.  It is millions of Democrats.  You aren't just "punishing" the people who approved the date change, you are punishing the entire state.  

          So, back at you,

          As a father, if I've learned nothing else, it's that you can't punish every child under your control for the act of only one, or your punishment stops being a lesson and starts being a temper tantrum.

          Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

          by dhonig on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:45:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Its not the same. (0+ / 0-)

          Firstly, if you have three kids about the same age, and set the same rules for all of them. And you allow the older child to constantly break the rules, but lock the two younger children in their rooms for doing the same thing saying, "rules are rules in this house." Your younger kids will grow up resenting you and not believing in your authority. Your older kid will grow up with a sense of entitlement. This is exactly what the DNC has done. Iowa and New Hampshire both broke the rules-- the very same rules-- by moving their dates. New Hampshire even skipped ahead of Nevada. They broke the rules clear as sky, and got no sanction.

          If you want to completely side-step my point and scream "rules rules rules" at least do it consistently.

          Secondly, at the time of the Florida primary date change, there was a widespread expectation, both in and out of the Florida Democratic party, that the delegates would be seated because by the convention it was expected the nominee would be decided. No one thought that the delegations would actually matter to the outcome. No one thought that it would cause damage to the general election candidate to not seat the delegates at all. The situation at the time the rules were laid down and now, are entirely different. Since it is perfectly within the rules go revise the penalty, it is certainly legitimate to consider revising them now.

        •  FL Needs a "Time-Out" (4+ / 0-)

          This wasn't something that was pushed on the Democrats in FL.

          If you need proof, then watch the video.

          FL decided in 2007 to thumb their nose at the rules and at the Democratic Party.

          If the voters of FL had an objection, the time to make that objection was before the vote...LONG before the vote.

          FL had their chance to behave. They broke the rules. Let them deal with the consequences.

          After the 2000 election mess, I wouldn't trust the state of FL to over-see a student council election.

      •  Competing in Florida (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, HRs Kevin

        I don't see how this argument carries water. Whether the delegates are seated or not, we're going to have a nominee. There are solid arguments on both sides as to which nominee gives us a greater chance to win there, but we compete with either one. There is no scenario where Florida is ceded to McCain.

        If Floridians are pissed, let them take it out on those responsible - their Governor and State legislature. You live with the decisions your Representatives make, and if you don't like - you get rid of them.

        If Florida or Michigan gets away with it, I'll be pissed that my state didn't flout the rules and jump to the head of the pack too. And I'd back there doing so next time around.

        Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power - Benjamin Franklin

        by johninPortland on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:45:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  are you so sure? (0+ / 0-)

          There is no scenario where Florida is ceded to McCain.

          I've seen numerous comments here with the effect of "we should cede Florida". Part of what disturbs me about this whole disenfranchisement thing is that it sometimes smells like more than just about whether the delegates are seated. It often seems like the reverse of what people here accuse the Clinton campaign of doing with respect to saying small states don't matter. It's a DNC chair from a small rural state who made his career on attacking other Democrats--often with valid criticisms certainly, but nonetheless-- saying "big states don't matter; screw Michigan and Florida". It's a kind of reverse bigotry.

          I'm hoping all of this is just because of the Obama-Clinton fight and that in the general election we can all come together.

          As for the rest of your argument, I do believe that seating the delegates will have an effect-- since polls seem to show a significant fraction of Florida Dems say they're less likely to vote for the nominee if the delegates aren't seated. Some compromise can be worked out which hopefully is not decisive to the result. If it is, I can see both sides fighting tooth and nail over this one.

          •  Seating the Delegates (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            highacidity, Gator Keyfitz, HRs Kevin

            So, you feel that Floridians are going to cast their vote in November based primarily on whether their delegates were allowed to be seated?

            As opposed to, oh, I don't know - Iraq, the Economy, the home mortgage crisis, any of the old supposed "moral" issues of gods, guns and gays, health care, or any number of other issues?

            You think their first concern will be - were the delegates seated?

            I don't think so.

            I think this whole dust-up is forgotten three weeks after the Convention.

            Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power - Benjamin Franklin

            by johninPortland on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:10:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Sort of like granting retroactive (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GussieFN, highacidity, Elise, ER Doc

      immunity to Bu$hCo and telecoms isn't it?

      The rules were agreed to and if the situation were reversed, with Obama demanding that the FL delgation be seated because he won, I would not only not support him on that but would probably have to withdraw my support for his candidacy.

      What FDR giveth; GWB taketh away.

      by Marie on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:23:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Rules (0+ / 0-)

      according to the 'Delegate Selection Rules for the 2008 Democratic National Convention', the DNC violated its own rules by stripping Florida and Michigan of all delegates:

      Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced byfifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent.

  •  To late now (7+ / 0-)

    If you cared so much about you vote mattering you should have addressed the issue before.  The rules were set and they were agreed too by ALL the candidates.
    You allowed your party apparatus to move the primary against DNC rules.
    Now Florida (and Michigan) are paying the price.
    Move on.

    •  I remember (0+ / 0-)

      Kos brazenly stating that the DNC never would (or should) follow through with these threats back in '07 when the issue came up.  I didn't much feel like digging for it, but I know they are there.

      Hillary Clinton 2008

      by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:07:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was just picking on you for using lately (0+ / 0-)

        three times in one sentence. I couldn't care if FL delegates were sat or not. I grew up in Fort Lauderdale and moved to Seattle 2 years ago. I can tell you, based on first hand knowledge, that Floridians are less involved with the process than people in this state. Florida got what it deserved and if the people don't like it they need to take it up with their elected officials. It's not in the candidates hands. It's not either candidates fault. The Florida state legislature needs to be purged and the only way that will happen is if the people in Florida get involved. Lately.

        •  Bah (0+ / 0-)

          I always write silly things like that when I take myself too seriously ;-)

          Anyways, I would agree with you, but the silence coming from the Obama camp about finding solutions to FL and MI has been deafening--to the point where the Clinton campaign feels that they have been working obstructively in this process.

          I know Floridians aren't the brightest crayons in the box, but the liberal element here is vastly underestimated because it all too often feels like we've been given up on...and the course of action we're taking now isn't helping that.

          I strongle believe that Florida can turn blue much more easily than Virginia, but if the delegates are not seated, I don't see it happening.

          Hillary Clinton 2008

          by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:26:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The silence from the Obama campaign (5+ / 0-)

            is deafening in comparison to Hillary's cries for the delegates to be sat. But he is just honoring his agreement with the DNC. I don't see how anyone (other than the Clinton campaign) can see that as being obstructive. She's going back on her word (and yes, she was fine with FL and MI not having a voice in the primaries before Feb 5) and trying to blame him for sticking to his. Don't you see something fundamentally wrong with that?

            •  They are both doing what they feel they have to.. (0+ / 0-)

              do.

              Let's not sugarcoat what is going on here. Clinton could give a rats ass about the "rights" of FL and MI voters. Anyone who thinks for a second that she is somehow taking the high ground on this for moral reasons is a complete moron. She is pumping this because she has to. And Obama is slowwalking it for the same reason. And the DNC is playing rope a dope, hoping the whole process sorts itself out so that they can come up with a "solution" that doesn't piss everyone off.

              Let the word go forth from this time and place...that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--Obama '08

              by Azdak on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:50:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Whatever the Motive (0+ / 0-)

                I really don't care why Hillary's on the right side of the argument.  All I care about is that she is, and the Obama campaign's passive obstruction of a Democratic process is hurting the Democratic Party's chances for success in a far more real way than the primary ever could.

                Hillary Clinton 2008

                by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:59:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's pretty obvious from the tone of the ... (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  psilocynic

                  discussion that probably 50% of people disagree with you. It is illustrative of how difficult the problem is that, while I respect your position and I understand the concerns you raise, I do not have sufficient words to express how strongly and vehemently I disagree with it.

                  And it's obvious that the discussion has once again reached a point of circular argument.

                  Let the word go forth from this time and place...that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--Obama '08

                  by Azdak on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:24:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  50% (0+ / 0-)

                    On the "Great Orange Satan" isn't bad.  I was expecting a much stronger backlash, to be perfectly honest with you.

                    Hillary Clinton 2008

                    by Tiki on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 08:08:26 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  We are making a conscious effort to play nice.... (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      psilocynic

                      ;-)

                      I think that with the "time out" in primaries, the "majority" has recognized that we were all getting carried away down the wrong path and there is an effort among many to maintain a more civil tone--at least for now!

                      I also think that reasonableness always elicits a more reasonable response.

                      Let the word go forth from this time and place...that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--Obama '08

                      by Azdak on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:08:03 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Honestly, the best idea I've seen... (0+ / 0-)

    for dealing with the MI and FL delegates has come from none other than Karl Rove.

    I think this would be a tactically brilliant move by Obama were he to do it.

  •  One can have full contempt (10+ / 0-)

    for Florida and Michigan for their stunt, without being motivated by Obama's standing.

    •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

      Iowa and New Hampshire are nowhere near being a representative sample of our country.  I would say FL and MI much more accurately reflect a picture of American society in the present and future--heck, I think they'd be two great states to start with every year.

      Hillary Clinton 2008

      by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:08:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  rules (5+ / 0-)

        If you don't like the way the 2008 rules were made in 2006, work to change the 2012 rules.

        Starting now.

        But you don't change the rules once they've been established.  And that includes the waiver granted to New Hampshire.  Asking for that was in the rules.

        The way to win is not to move to the right wing; the way to win is to move to the right policy. -- Nameless Soldier

        by N in Seattle on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:12:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Let me count the ways (8+ / 0-)

        1. You run dirty elections. You have your Secretary of State serving on campaigns.
        1. You have shown a complete inability to get along with others, as shown by this current mess.
        1. You have a supposed 'Red to Blue' Congresswoman who is protecting Republicans in your delegation.
        1. You have used your national influence to prolong a half-century of policy failure on Cuba.

        For starters.

      •  IA and NH have a role in the process (5+ / 0-)

        Iowa and New Hampshire are nowhere near being a representative sample of our country

        Perhaps not, but they are states where lesser known candidates without megabucks can make some news and gain some momentum. Otherwise, we'll always be electing the best candidates money can buy.

        McCain's speaking style: Like a bad Andy Rooney impersonator, except not that good.

        by edg on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:40:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ironically,.... (3+ / 0-)

          One could argue that this year, there were several states which had roles equal to or some might say greater than NH and Iowa.  Ohio? Texas? Wisconsin? The Potomac Primary?  If Florida and Michigan followed the rules, ironically, given their previous position on the calendar, they would have likely been the most important.

          This election has told us that the calendar doesn't have a bearing on the importance of a primary, the quality of the candidates does.

      •  Which is why they expanded it from (5+ / 0-)

        IA/NH to include SC and NV to bring in the west and the south. This was done in a coordinated fashion with the GOP. I think most would like to see states rotate into those first slots, but that'll NEVER happen if any state can go anytime they want. We'll have all the primaries between Labor Day and Halloween and sit on our hands for the next year waiting for the general.

        -6.00, -7.03
        Obama '08

        by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:55:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  FL, MI, IA and NH (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, NotGeorgeWill

        Iowa and New Hampshire are nowhere near being a representative sample of our country.  I would say FL and MI much more accurately reflect a picture of American society in the present and future--heck, I think they'd be two great states to start with every year.

        Great. Then lobby to get the rules changed for 2012 so that Florida and Michigan go first.

        IA and NH followed the rules for this year. FL and MI did not. If the rules are changed and FL and MI go first in 2012, and IA and NH jump to the front of the pack against DNC rules, I'll advocate for IA and NH delegates to not be seated.

        Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power - Benjamin Franklin

        by johninPortland on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:16:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  yeppers (8+ / 0-)

      FL and MI thumbed their noses at the Democratic Party, for which they deserve whatever punishment the DNC chooses.

      It doesn't matter whether Clinton, Obama, McGovern, Mondale, Carter, or whoever "benefits" from their penalty.

      The way to win is not to move to the right wing; the way to win is to move to the right policy. -- Nameless Soldier

      by N in Seattle on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:10:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In baseball, I think they call that a sacrifice (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pattyp, ER Doc, NotGeorgeWill

    they got what they wanted [paper trail], but had to sacrifice a run [seated delegates] to get it.

    Works out, don't you think?

  •  I'd Call the election we had (4+ / 0-)

    here in florida a mock election at best.

     title=

    I don't want a bigger government, I want an effective government!

    by KingGeorgetheTurd on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:08:53 PM PDT

    •  I beg to differ (0+ / 0-)

      Any way you slice it, 1.7 million is no mock election.

      Hillary Clinton 2008

      by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:10:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Disenfranchise (7+ / 0-)

        Any way you slice it, 1.7 million is no mock election.

        Don't you think you are disenfranchising all the people that did NOT vote because they naively expected the rules to be followed, ie that Florida would not count?

        •  That has always been, IMHO, a crap arguement (0+ / 0-)

          The vote we cast was in good faith.  The election itself wasn't not held in good faith, but don't claim that those who voted violated the rules, while those who didn't vote, did follow the rules.

        •  More than one way to disenfranchise voter (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          highacidity

          "Disenfranchised" Floridians who would like to see Hillary bow out do not get ANY support from me.

          I haven't voted yet. It's bad enough my state goes so late that all save for two candidates have dropped out.

          If you're complaining about being disenfranchised and egging on the last remaining candidate who provides some sort of choice different from the front runner to drop out - you are advocating for disenfranchising me as well as voters in all late voting states.

          We here in the later states also do not want to be disenfranchised. And we followed the rules.

          Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power - Benjamin Franklin

          by johninPortland on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 07:59:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]