Daily Kos

Florida Dems, the DNC and the circular firing squad

Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:18:54 PM PDT

Its nice to be fought over even when no one is saying nice things about you. Its even nicer when those who are suddenly running in claiming to be your best friends are the folks who screwed you over in the first place.

Hillary wants our votes down here to count, but its a new found cause for her. The folks who were most responsible for our original disenfranchisement were Terry McAuliffe, Donna Brazile, and a whole host of long time Hillary faithful who were absolutely rabid about this issue when the Hillary campaign was going to be a cakewalk and the marching orders were to maintain the status quo so that she'd take the cake at the magic moment.

Fuck Florida said the Clintonistas. We don't need 'em anyway! Add to them the party gestapo who wanted to make an example of us. Nobody else much cared.

If there's anybody out there willing to look past whipping us for the delight in doing so, or using us as pawns because there's some short term advantage to counting or nullifying our vote for your preferred candidate, please follow me over the break.

What is insanely funny about this to me, is that almost no one appears to give a shit about the voters in Florida. I don't mean the functionaries, or the party leaders, or the candidates' organizers. I mean the voter who isn't wonky, doesn't know who their representative is, and thinks DNC is a medical procedure. You remember those folks, right? They're the ones we ask to vote for us on election day.

Yes, its nice to be fought over. Now that the Clintonistas need us all is forgiven, and we're supposed to somehow forget that the nastiest, most rabid Florida punishers have either done an about face or are trying to quietly walk away from the Clinton campaign without being called Judas!

And now its the Obama supporters and the party purists who have picked up the call. "Fuck Florida! We don't need 'em anyway."

The fact is, you do. We're especially vulnerable with our conservative democrats, our high proportion of military retired, our other elderly, and our many, many conservative Republicans. When we keep losing, you lose too.

There are two trends that tell the whole story. We're registering more Democrats, we've turned around a trend of electing more Republicans, and we're making gains.

Or I should say, we were making gains. State Senator Steve Geller ran a small-sample-size poll, and found a lot of residual anger over the whole issue. A do-over would have helped.

But he said the poll also indicated that if Florida does not have a delegation to the national convention, 5 percent of those surveyed would not vote in November and 14 percent would "seriously consider" voting Republican. He said another 12 percent weren't sure what they might do if Florida is unrepresented.
link

Its nice that both sides have gotten a good lick at us through surrogates. The Obama campaign has defaulted to distant and disconnected surrogates, like kos and others here, to deliver the "Fuck Florida" message. The Clinton campaign has delivered both messages from people much closer to the campaign. First the "Fuck You" from the Braziles, then the public lamentations over our disenfranchisement (when an unimaginable turn of events cause it to suit her purpose) from the candidate herself.

But it never seems to suit the purpose of very many in the party to consider the long term goal of delivering this state for a Democratic candidate in November. So we form the circular firing squad. There are always more important short term goals to consider, and many of them give the other 49 a chance to give us a good swift kick in the groin. And after all, there will be plenty of time to figure out why we didn't see the big picture after November.

Florida looks mighty red tonight.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Terry McAuliffe, Donna Brazile, Florida, DNC, FDP (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 41 comments

  •  Who has the bullet? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bradreiman

    tips/delegate passes?

    If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

    by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:20:56 PM PDT

  •  Ah, my home state... (5+ / 0-)

    We put the "fun" in dysfunction.

    Hillary = Palpatine
    -2.75/-1.38

    by jkddude on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:22:46 PM PDT

  •  well, you tried to cheat all the other states (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Samer, FlyingToaster, Wary, SciVo

    and it worked on the Republican side.  You chose McCain. You should happy.

  •  Geller's not the best guy to quote (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    highacidity, Wary, SciVo, Aqualad08

    Considering he was the guy who laughed in the DNC's face on the floor of the Florida Senate.

    I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    by incertus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:36:53 PM PDT

    •  In fact, he's the right guy to quote... (0+ / 0-)

      ...he knows exactly what's going on. I'd much prefer somebody who introduces a bill that has no chance of passage and is flip and laughs about it, than somebody who looks like he's been hit in the face by a mackerel when nobody votes for it.

      Is it a mark of intelligence to introduce a bill that has no support and act like you're serious about it? That's the guy I don't want to be quoting, because that person is a fool.

      The Democrats are not in control of the Florida Legislature. That has a chilling effect on a party's ability to get its way.

      If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

      by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:41:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Way to misread what he was doing (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity

        He was saying to the DNC, in essence, "we don't think you've got the guts to slap us down, because you need us," even though the DNC had warned them ahead of time. Geller thought he could back the DNC down--he was wrong. So when he says he's commissioned a survey, I say "why should I believe a thing you have to say?" Geller is not trustworthy on this matter.

        I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

        by incertus on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:50:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But you have it all wrong. (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, Bandaloo, SciVo, Aqualad08

        Dean and the DNC didn't need Florida dems to successfully overturn the Republicans. They needed to TRY. That's all.

        In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state’s delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes...."

        They made no such effort. Nothing in there that they need to succeed, just that they need to honestly TRY.

        And again, the state party did this:

        And Jeremy Ring, a Democratic state senator from Broward County and co-sponsor of the legislation, defended it.

        "If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."

        FL Dems got what their fucked up representatives wanted. So, rather than blaming others, what are the plans to recall/primary out RIng? What about the others?

        -6.00, -7.03
        Obama '08

        by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:51:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And the deal already was made... (0+ / 0-)

          ...to trade the vote off for the paper trail. You can view this as slapping the DNC in the face, but the fact is, the paper trail issue was so important that it trumped the DNC. Fair elections trump primary delegates, and while your read of it may be different, incertus, impressing the DNC--or tweaking it--isn't even high in the mix.

          Are the Democrats going to renege on the deal and lose the paper trail? Not a chance.

          I will agree that Geller probably didn't think the DNC was so colossally stupid that it would risk losing the vote. He was absolutely wrong.

          The DNC was not only that stupid, but its come back to haunt them in ways they didn't anticipate when their own frontrunner who orchestrated the process reversed herself on it.

          This is one more reason this party is tearing itself apart. No, Geller probably didn't have a clue about that.

          If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

          by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:19:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gellar isn't tearing the party apart. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            highacidity, SciVo

            The people blaming the DNC and Obama instead of Gellar are.

            the paper trail issue was so important that it trumped the DNC.

            Nobody disputes that. And Dems didn't need to opposed the paper trail issue. They just needed to make a good faith effort to reverse the date. They never even tried to make an honest effort on that because they were the ones that introduced the date change.

            At its summer 2006 convention, the Democratic National Committee specified a tough penalty - the loss of half the delegation, plus a boycott preventing candidates from campaigning in the state. The 11 Florida DNC members voted for that penalty. With Florida's primary then still set in mid-March, "I don't think anyone envisioned any impact on Florida," said Mitch Ceasar, DNC member and Broward County party chairman.

            Initially, Florida Democrats, who had wanted an earlier date for years, favored the idea of January. They assumed that because Florida was a key presidential battleground, the DNC rule would not be enforced. State party Chairman Karen Thurman told the Tribune in November 2006, "I don't see any downside to it."

            A Democratic senator, Jeremy Ring, D-Parkland, even sponsored an initial version of the bill.

            "There was a miscalculation that because we're Florida, that's going to trump everything," Katz said.

            But as the legislative session began in March 2007, DNC officials issued warnings of strict enforcement of their rule. "They needed to make an example, or they'd have had a rush of other states doing the same thing," Katz said.

            DNC Chairman Howard Dean called and wrote to Florida legislators, urging them to vote no, as did Thurman. Democrats could not defeat the measure - Republicans held nearly a 2-to-1 majority in the Legislature - but if they opposed it, the DNC might be mollified, Thurman said."

            They never honestly tried to defeat the measure even knowing that they couldn't. They never honestly tried to modify the measure. When Dean offered the state $880K to help pay for a 2/5 caucus the state party told him to piss off. The state party did NOTHING to prevent this.

            -6.00, -7.03
            Obama '08

            by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:27:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is STILL NOT too late! (0+ / 0-)

              When Dean offered the state $880K to help pay for a 2/5 caucus the state party told him to piss off.

              Obama himself can and should offer about 10 times
              that.  FL and MI can both still have caucuses purely
              on the initiative of their state parties and they
              simply don't need any legislature's permission.
              All they need to do is confer with the DNC competently
              enough to make sure that what they are doing WILL
              COUNT this time.  There IS STILL enough time.
              With the 2 candidates raising $90M in Feb. alone,
              there is also obviously still enough money.
              What there is not, tragically, is clarity of insight
              about the IMPORTANCE, especially to THIS party, of
              CHAMPIONING the right to vote as a basic right
              of primary importance that EVERYone is entitled to
              exercise.  You would think that the mere fact that
              it is FLORIDA (again) would drive it through people's
              heads.  I am voting for Obama but he is totally
              screwing up on these two (FL and MI).
              He should be DEMANDING a re-vote, ESPECIALLY knowing
              that he's going to lose it.  He (obviously) ought
              also to know that he's not going to lose it by
              ENOUGH to lessen his chances of getting nominated.

              "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

              by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:49:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Florida and Clinton don't want (0+ / 0-)

                a revote.

                On a "do-over" in Florida and Michigan, which held nominating contests that broke Democratic Party rules
                I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the 2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their votes counted. And you know a lot of people would be disenfranchised because of the timing and whatever the particular rules were. This is really going to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn't have any choice whatsoever. And I don't think that there should be any do-over or any kind of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.

                Her Florida Campaign Chair has been working against it:

                I'm glad that the party has reached the same conclusion that was reached by the congressional delegation a week ago," said U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Florida.

                A supporter of Sen. Hillary Clinton, Wasserman Schultz had staunchly opposed a re-vote.

                But Obama has indicated that he thinks the delegates will get seated somehow and would like to see that happen. All of this noise is coming out of Clinton and out of Florida party folks that don't want people looking at their bullshit.

                -6.00, -7.03
                Obama '08

                by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 11:08:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Well then they need to (0+ / 0-)

            play that fiddle to their constituents.

            Because it sure seems like the song playing right now is "those meanies took away our delegates because we wanted to play a part [jump the gun]"

          •  You DID NOT HAVE to give up... (0+ / 0-)

            your primary delegates to get the paper trail.
            You CAN STILL have a primary if you want to and
            you DON'T NEED any permission from any legislature.
            ALL YOU DO need is about $9million.

            "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

            by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:43:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I live here too. (6+ / 0-)

    And with voters trying to vote on Super Tuesday, along with the Democrats voting to hold the primary in January and not being able to come up with another plan, I don't know what else you could expect.

    Time after time Florida has shown it has no business deciding any election. So why should we get another shot? We've proven time and again that we just don't deserve it.

    "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

    by blueintheface on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:37:25 PM PDT

    •  Its too bad therefore... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that the electoral votes for McCain will count. I'd be happy to have my state sit this election out. But we don't have that option either.

      If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

      by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:42:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Neither is the option to blame the DNC (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, tango

        for having rules that Florida Democrats purposely broke or being so gullible as to listen to Hillary or the pundits wringing their hands over their newfound concern for Florida's alienated voters.

        "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

        by blueintheface on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:48:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  because EVERY VOTE COUNTS, THAT'S why (0+ / 0-)

      why should we get another shot? We've proven time and again that we just don't deserve it.

      Constitutional rights, civil rights, and human rights
      are things you get FOR BEING HUMAN, NOT for DESERVING
      them.

      Seriously, it is very important that this party be
      taken seriously in comparison to the other party
      as a champion of people's right to vote.
      THAT IS WHY YOU NEED TO VOTE.

      If you actually needed this explained to you then
      you need to go back to MyDD and come back when
      you grow up.

      "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

      by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:42:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I lived in Fl (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    highacidity, tango, tbetz, blueintheface

    And escaped right before old Jeb got into office!!!

    I know what FL is like, paperless voting machines, failed, stolen elections based upon totally dishonest people, and it's up to the voters, and I mean Democrats, in that state to make it right.

    Listen we had to do this in my own state of KY, they are doing it in Texas as well, can't wait on the rest of the country to come 'bail you out' all the time, got to stand up for yourselves.

    Fact is any presidential democrat can not include Florida in that 'win' column, and heck even your won democratic Party plays footsies and sleeps with those Republicans.

    YOU the people got to take your state and party back!

    The rest of the country can't do it for you, and that's  the truth of it.

    "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

    by Wary on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:41:35 PM PDT

    •  No, but you're not even helping! n/t (0+ / 0-)

      If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

      by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:42:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You want some cheese with that whine? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ge0rge

        Trade in the diapers for some pull-ups and go change it instead of holding your breath until you get your way...

        Florida will have a delegation once everybody else who followed the rules has their legit shots...it will be halved or 50-50, but you'll get to stroll your show dogs out on the floor in Denver...

        Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

        by Aqualad08 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:02:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Look, I want a reasonable solution out of (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    highacidity, tango, Bandaloo, ge0rge

    Florida, but the residents of Florida first need to figure out who did this and that means that people need to stop lying about what happened there. This was a game of chicken between the FL state party and the DNC and they were playing with the voters. The FL state party is so far losing this battle, but they've done a nice job with Clinton's help to convince Floridians that the DNC screwed them unfairly. That's a complete lie.

    Once the voters figure out that people like Wasserman Schultz (among many others) are deserving of their ire, then we can talk about a proper solution. But first things first.

    I'm glad that the party has reached the same conclusion that was reached by the congressional delegation a week ago," said U.S. Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Florida.

    A supporter of Sen. Hillary Clinton, Wasserman Schultz had staunchly opposed a re-vote.

    But in the meantime, threats of staying home in November helps what, exactly? So the solution to bad representation in Florida is self-disenfranchisement? What the fuck solution is that? The people that keep peddling that threat need to work toward a proper end here - tell voters that they need to vote in November, and in addition to voting Dem they need to replace those state reps that created this problem. Recall them, primary them out, but quit blaming the wrong people for this mess.

    -6.00, -7.03
    Obama '08

    by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:46:50 PM PDT

    •  Let's leave Clinton out of this... (0+ / 0-)

      ...because she wanted Florida disenfranchised before she wanted the votes counted. This is only about her because she is just one more in the long line trying to turn us to her advantage.

      The threats of staying home in November helps McCain win. The proper end here is to vote the Republican majority out of office in Florida. I don't see that happening any time soon.

      We might have a chance to do something about Wasserman-Shultz. She's in a liberal district and the Cuban GOP that she's protecting are vulnerable.

      But Wasserman-Shultz is Paul Wellstone compared with Allen Boyd. He's a telcom immunity loving democrat in the Lieberman mold. But take a look at his district and poll it, and any astute wonk will see why he's in office and why its either a blue dog or a republican.

      The fact is, we need to replace most of the voters in this state to get the outcome we want. So the next best thing is to have people in the party who understand the situation on the ground here. It is not a solution to tell us to recall the Republican legislature. That's about as likely as outlawing Sonny's BBQ restaurants and Indian River Citrus Fruit.

      If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

      by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:02:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not my point. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, Aqualad08

        My point is that Floridians in general seem to be blaming Dean and to a degree Obama and Obama supporters. This is because Clinton keeps peddling this line:

        On a "do-over" in Florida and Michigan, which held nominating contests that broke Democratic Party rules
        I would not accept a caucus. I think that would be a great disservice to the 2 million people who turned out and voted. I think that they want their votes counted. And you know a lot of people would be disenfranchised because of the timing and whatever the particular rules were. This is really going to be a serious challenge for the Democratic Party because the voters in Michigan and Florida are the ones being hurt, and certainly with respect to Florida the Democrats were dragged into doing what they did by a Republican governor and a Republican Legislature. They didn't have any choice whatsoever. And I don't think that there should be any do-over or any kind of a second run in Florida. I think Florida should be seated.

        That's a lie and everyone in the DNC knows it. Clinton has her Florida chair now reiterating that lie as well as helping block any revote option, yet others on her staff are blaming Obama for blocking revote efforts.

        I'm not saying to recall the GOP. I'm saying to pressure the Dems to actually represent you, but instead Floridians are only enabling their behavior by screaming at the DNC instead of at them. Honestly, you'd be better off replacing those Dems with Republicans for a cycle given where you are now:

        And Jeremy Ring, a Democratic state senator from Broward County and co-sponsor of the legislation, defended it.

        "If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."

        State Dems did this to you and you need to punish state Dems for that and the way you do that is to come out and vote BIG in November for Dems. Show them that there are enough of you pissed off at them to boot them out of office at the next primary. If you stay home, they're safe. Incumbents love low turnouts, but you also need to show them that voters are interested in the truth here and won't just swallow whatever crap they tell you.

        Get rid of the Republicans if you can, but honestly, are they doing you any more harm than some of the Dems are? The only way to get honest Dems is to nuke the bad ones hard.

        -6.00, -7.03
        Obama '08

        by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:21:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Republicans most definately are doing more harm (0+ / 0-)

          They were keeping the elections crooked down here, and they only relented on the paper trail issue because they know its only a matter of time before they're either caught at it big time, or national legislation forces re-countable elections. The right  google search shows they pretty much been caught at it already.

          There is also a pretty serious constituency in their own party to clean up this mess. This is the perfect storm. They hand the Democrats an issue they dearly want to win on and couldn't otherwise, in exchange for joining them in a scheme that simultaneously reduces the Dems own credibility as champions of the right to vote.

          I'm not pissed at our Dems for getting us a paper trail. In fact, I'm amazed that they were able to get one at all. I would love it if Florida politics works the way you think it does. Unfortunately, the voters down here don't respond to the kind of arguments you're making.

          If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

          by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:34:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What do they respond to? Early bird specials? (0+ / 0-)

            You said it:

            The fact is, we need to replace most of the voters in this state to get the outcome we want.

            Well, sorry that the single greatest recruitment option (Obama himself) isn't allowed to come down there and start expanded the voter base, but if the leadership needed to do so isn't there, find out what you can do to do it yourself...

            Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

            by Aqualad08 on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:08:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  the actions of FL legislature are... (0+ / 0-)

            COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
            So your Republican legislature made you have
            a beauty contest.  That DOES NOT STOP YOU from
            having ANOTHER ONE THAT REALLY COUNTS.
            The only thing stopping that is your misguided
            hypocritical ignorant sense of false victimhood.

            "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

            by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:39:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Carl Hiassen comes to mind... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    nolabelle

    ...I wish people could just see things as they really are. That the state party screwed Florida, that criticizing Hillary's campaign methods isn't sexist on it's face, that the Republican party isn't the party for the rural voter just because they're against gay marriage...I could go on and on.

    This circular firing squad is not conducive to progress.

    Most of all I am enraged at the idea that people would vote for McCain because their candidate didn't get the nomination. These people surely deserve the consequences of that vote but everyone else certainly does not. A protest vote for the other party's candidate is unamerican on it's face, more unpatriotic than burning a silly flag  to be sure. A vote is one of the most sacred things we have, an enduring symbol of our democracy (whats left of it).

    "Good to be here, good to be anywhere." --Keith Richards

    by bradreiman on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 08:53:47 PM PDT

    •  I'm suggesting that disenfranchisement... (0+ / 0-)

      ...is only one item in the mix of whom they vote for. They'd vote against the party, not because they're angry about one candidate or another.

      The argument goes that the democrats didn't want their vote in January, so they won't get it in November. That's not my view, but I've heard it a lot and Geller's poll reflects it about at the percentage I've heard it.

      We don't have highly motivated Democrats down here. We have people who sit the fence a lot and it doesn't take a hurricane to knock them on one side or the other.

      If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

      by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:05:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "THey" who?? (0+ / 0-)

        'm suggesting that disenfranchisement...
        ...is only one item in the mix of whom they vote for. They'd vote against the party

        If you mean Florida Democrats, well, by all means,
        PLEASE LET THAT happen.

        People in other states, for the presidential
        election, are perfectly aware that we DON'T NEED
        Florida (Gore didn't need it in 2000 either; he just
        needed for Nader not to spoil New Hampshire).

        As for Democratic officeholders inside Florida,
        well, THEY are the ones WHO CAUSED THIS MESS,
        so the more of THEM who lose, THE BETTER.
        You need some new blood ANYway.  Give the R's
        two more years of rope with which to hang themselves,
        and elect a new generation in 2010 (just in time
        for the redistricting, hopefully).

        "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

        by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:55:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I care. I have posted repeatedly that I'm an O (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PBCliberal

    supporter who think it's absurd beyond absurd that Obama has let himself by linked to the idea that the party should completely shut out the voices of the Florida and Michigan voters.

    I think it's fine if he calls for throwing out the original primary and proposes some other mechanism for allocating the delegates -- e.g., let the delegates allocate themselves; use a poll; schedule a Jell O wrestling match -- but he and his fervent supports should support the general concept of "every vote must count" as much as the HRC supporters.

    To me, the sign that this site had started weirding out was when people posted the wave of diaries suggesting that the Florida vote didn't matter so there was reason to county the Florida delegates. To me, that seems like the sort of something that the Obama campaign thinks because some Karl Rove shill somewhere in his organization planted the idea. I can't believe that Obama would come up with an idea like "Florida Democrats don't count!" without some creep somehow squeezing it into his brain.

  •  Thank You. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PBCliberal

    You know, I really view FL as a microcosm of what kind of forces the Democratic Party is up against this fall.  The powers of Republican incumbency, the challenges of diversity, the battle against ignorance, healthcare, retirement, social security, welfare.  There are so many hot-button issues that come to a head here.

    The Democratic party needs to learn to succeed here if it's going to learn to succeed elsewhere.  Circular firing squads need to end, and if that means the first steps towards the death of an outmoded and ineffective primary system, so be it.  The delegates need to be seated in Denver.

    I don't want a President McCain.  I really, really don't.  The votes in Florida need to be counted.

    Hillary Clinton 2008

    by Tiki on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:32:37 PM PDT

    •  Of course the votes in FL need to be counted (0+ / 0-)

      But before they get counted, they need to
      be cast.  The votes that were cast in January
      ARE NOT legitimate because everyone was TOLD
      they would not count and because the candidates
      did not campaign there.

      If you actually needed this explained to you,
      then you are NOT COMPETENT TO ADVISE Democrats
      (or democrats, for that matter) on our needs,
      whether about circular firing squads or anything
      else.

      "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

      by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:52:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Kos would reply (0+ / 0-)

    but he's too busy getting marching orders from Obama.

    You know, because we all know Kos to be a total water-carrier and all.

    /snark

    •  I'll take my marching orders from Obama (0+ / 0-)

      Because I am a strong supporter, so this is not about that, snark aside. This is an issue that stands on its own and has only gotten more damaging and more convoluted when it was sucked into the candidate debate.

      Everybody is seeking high ground for their candidate and how the numbers can be worked. Before that, everybody was seeking high ground as a way to flex  their political muscles to control primary order.

      Who knows where the next eddy current will take us, probably not somewhere closer to the long term goal of winning more seats and the white house.

      If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

      by PBCliberal on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 09:58:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nobody is seeking high ground (0+ / 0-)

        except me.  The high ground position is that
        everybody is entitled to vote and have it count.
        Nobody is seeking that except me.

        "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

        by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:50:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  contrary to his handle... (0+ / 0-)

    The diarist IS NOT a P.C. liberal.
    The PC liberal position is, was, and always
    will be exactly the one that Brazile, McAuliffe,
    AND EVERY LAST OTHER DEMOCRAT took in January.
    It does bear stressing that Florida and Michigan
    BOTH had representatives ON THE COMMITTEE that
    voted for this penalty and THEIR REPRESENTATIVES
    voted for it.  Everybody who is actually a PC liberal
    understands clearly, easily, and trivially why it
    is important for there to be a strong penalty for
    this.

    I personally am not that PC.

    My personal position is that given that the name
    of this party is the Democratic party, it is very
    imporant, precisely as BILL Clinton has been saying,
    for everybody to get to vote and for everybody's vote
    to count.  So MI and FL should just re-vote by mail
    sometime before June 3.  And Obama is AN IDIOT for not
    volunteering TO FUND IT HIMSELF.
    He has simply handed both Hillary AND, FAR MORE
    importantly, THE REPUBLICANS an issue with which
    to pound him over the head -- they can say that
    his nomination victory is tainted and that -- far
    MORE importantly -- he has proven that he does NOT
    care a fig about little-d democracy or counting
    every vote.

    "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

    by ge0rge on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 10:37:18 PM PDT

  •  It's a perfect storm of dysfunction. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PBCliberal

    I have a really bad aftertaste from all of my online discussions earlier this year with Floridians who were exuding a repulsive sense of entitlement. They seemed to really believe that they were worth more than everyone else and damn well deserved to get whatever they wanted -- waiver of party rules, the rest of the country bowing to their whims, whatever. I cannot describe how much that pissed me off, and I've edited a great deal of profanity out of this paragraph to make it less unworksafe.

    Setting aside all of the shortsighted provincial crap surrounding how we got into this aggravating situation in the first place. I only see three options:

    1. Be really fucking stupid and seat the delegates as-is. Okay, I failed on editing out the profanity. So sue me. That would be really fucking stupid. Those who are now Clinton partisans took Dean's position back in the day because it's necessary for the party. We can't break the IA/NH hegemony without rule enforcement credibility. Actually, I'm kind of surprised that there aren't more Iowans and New Hampshirites arguing that we should throw the rules to the wind. They must not really believe that the other 48 states of us would ever actually assert our interests, which is of course shortsighted and provincial of them (thank goodness they're so silly).
    1. Be really fucking stupid and do some kind of re-vote. I knew that something was wrong when Gingrich agreed with the position that I'd previously expressed. Eventually, I realized that the problem was money. The state wouldn't give any, so it would have to come from Democrats only. That money should be going to our Congressional, state and local races. Look, I'm Gen X, I've been kind of apathetic, and I didn't really get it until I saw how just a million dollars each was considered a huge investment by the DNC and RNC in Bill Foster's race. As big a deal as money is in politics now, it's still not that big a deal. Our perspective is distorted by the presidential race; everything else pales in comparison to that. Even if it were "only" five million dollars, the opportunity cost to the Democratic party of a re-vote in Florida would actually be gigantic. With a little underspending here and a little underspending there, it could easily cost us a Governorship, a couple of Senate seats, eight House seats, and so on!
    1. Be moderately foolish and freeze out the Florida delegates. It would be more of an issue if Clinton were going to be the nominee, but she isn't, and Obama's electoral map is different. Losing Florida is actually survivable with him, so their o'erweening sense of entitlement is less dangerous to the rest of the nation, thank $DIETY.
    1. Be rather goofy and assign some arbitrary number of delegates, not actually tied to anything else. This is probably the most likely choice. Most people would rather be seen as the class clown than the village idiot. Curse the Democratic Party of Florida for making that our choice!

    I also believe we must impeach Antonin Scalia for protection from his inhumanity.

    by SciVo on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:02:49 AM PDT

    •  Arrgh! Four options, not three! (0+ / 0-)

      I added one and forgot to edit my comment. Blech.

      I also believe we must impeach Antonin Scalia for protection from his inhumanity.

      by SciVo on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:03:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh, and I'm not actually calculating specifically (0+ / 0-)

      ...as I'm sure anyone who follows politics that closely can tell. I'm just saying that if a million dollars is considered a big investment in a House race, then five million dollars could constructively affect a lot of other races.

      I also believe we must impeach Antonin Scalia for protection from his inhumanity.

      by SciVo on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 12:09:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And its more complicated (0+ / 0-)

        By the fact that the change to a paper trail makes it impossible for some counties to hold an election until after the convention is underway. So that rules out a re-vote.

        The mail-in was suggested because it would be a way to run a vote without requiring voting machines and polling places, but that requires the county supervisors of elections to check the signatures or certify the ballots some way, and Florida doesn't have a good track record of that.

        A caucus is probably the best re-vote option of what is possible, but Florida has never done a caucus before, which is only going to confuse the electorate more. And, of course, its partisan because we strongly suspect it will favor Obama. (Disclosure: I'm supporting Obama).

        This state is flat broke, and the governor ran on a "no new taxes" pledge, so anything that costs state money is going to be opposed by Republicans who will act fiscally responsible but privately delight in picking the scab off the wound.

        The best solution is don't seat the delegates or seat them only after they make no difference. Seating them after they made no difference is rumored to have been the plan all along, because Clinton was to be the clear nominee, so it didn't matter much.

        That is a terrible solution, and its going to have its effect in November in a way that hurts us. My point in this is that we are cutting off our nose to spite our face, and its become the latest way the HRC campaign is tearing the party apart. But they're by no means alone in this. Its just that now that the hated Clintons have a dog in the fight that favors seating, its an excuse for an even bigger pile-on.

        If it were true, they couldn't say it on Fox News. -6.62 -5.90

        by PBCliberal on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 01:22:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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