Growing Vegetables on City Rooftops

Updated June 2008 Check out this video and visit our blog to see what's new.

Crazy?

Maybe, but we're doing it.

At the end of this post is a guide full of relevant links showing how you can do this yourself.  We've also told our story using pictures at this Flickr page.  Next to those pictures are similar instructions on how to do this .

Our experience has shown that this process has other benefits, namely that it builds connections in a fragmented social/political landscape.  If you're trying to organize people, it's got a lot of potential.  A big selling point is that it is something that can be done by individuals.  You don't need to appeal for funding, attend planning meetings, or hire a budget busting number of "professionals".

If nothing else, you'll get some great tomatoes out of it.

In cities, most people can't garden because of scarce resources.  The biggest being lack of arable land. Other limits are money, knowledge, time, and desire.

If you've got the interest, we can show you how to inexpensively grow vegetables using fewer inputs and in less time, wherever you happen to be.  I'll be honest and say that nothing we're doing is all that novel.  The individual "technologies" are there for anyone to put together.  We want more people to do just that and have been posting our results to blogs with that in mind.

Ok, so what exactly are we talking about?

Last summer,  my friends  and I grew heirloom vegetables on our respective rooftops in Chicago using homemade self-watering containers similar to Earthboxes®.   What's so special about the design of the Earthboxes®?  After reading that they "more than double the yield of a conventional garden using less fertilizer, less water, and virtually no effort", we looked a little deeper and found that the results are scalable and they've got some numbers (PDF file) to back up the hype.  With that in mind, we decided to make our own boxes using cheap, readily available containers.

Here in Chicago, as in most cities,  green roofs aren't used to grow vegetables.   Gardening for food production isn't part of the design scheme;  if they are built at all, the roofs are sold by emphasizing their other environmentally friendly features, e.g.,  they reduce the heating/cooling load on a building and keep rain water out of the sewer system.  Unfortunately, they are large, expensive projects and don't encourage anyone other than good government types or motivated environmentalists to participate.  These containers can be put together using basic hand tools and commonly found materials.  They can sit on the ground, a deck or balcony, or any roof that can handle the weight.

It's possible to do this on a much larger scale.  In Montreal, a few non-profit groups have built an enviable partnership with their local and regional governments.  It's something that could be done by like minded people here in the U.S. who want to make their communities greener and healthier.

I'm Convinced, How Do I Make These Things?

Before you get started, one important question to ask is "How do I know if my roof can handle the extra weight?"  A builder, architect, or engineer can tell you if it's possible. Even if your roof can't support the weight, there are many creative, low cost ways that you can use these ideas to grow plants on your balcony, deck, or windowsill.

What exactly is an Earthbox®?  And why is it perfect for the challenges of urban rooftop gardening?   (Well, aside from the fact that they're not cheap.)

Once you understand how the original Earthbox® works you can use just about any combination of containers that does the same thing.

Here are the best plans for homemade self-watering containers that I found:

Where to start?

This   (heads up - pdf) is a link that obsessively details the whole process of making homemade boxes using different types of containers.

At the end there is a planting guide taken from the Earthbox® site, along with some other helpful tips.

If you've got a bunch of 5 gallon plastic buckets, the double bucket design on pg 18-19 of the pdf  works well.  Here's a video on how to do it.   It's what my friends Art and Heidi did, as you can see in the middle of my photoset and in these pics from her  Flickr photoset.

The design I used, but wished I hadn't

Here's the link.

I'm going to change what I made before planting this spring by replacing the pvc piping with a safer plastic or other inert material.   I had reservations about using pvc in the first place, see below under caveats for more.

What I should have made (the 2 tub design)

Here's the link

It's a lot easier to make and doesn't need any pvc.

You can find the fish pond baskets needed for the 2 tub design here.

Keep in mind that the height of the basket determines the capacity of the water reservoir you're creating.  You probably don't want one shorter than 5" unless you're going to have some kind of automatic watering system (more on that below).

Ok, so how much does it cost?

For the box, potting mix, fertilizer, trellis and watering system, the official Earthbox® is about $110/box.  The comparable homemade version is roughly $50/box, with the trellis accounting for almost half of that. Plus your time........  I think that you could get that number much lower by reworking the box and trellis design.

..........

A couple of caveats:

These sound pretty technical, but after you read through the above links you'll know what I'm talking about.

The plastic in most of the homemade boxes, i.e. Rubbermaid containers or 5 gallon buckets, isn't UV resistant like the official Earthbox®.  You could paint them with a protective coating, but the only paint I found that will stick to Rubbermaid type plastic is very expensive.  Instead, I tried to protect the boxes by putting an oversized garbage bag over them, one that doubled as the mulch cover.   It's only been a year, but so far, so good.  Worst case, I'll have to buy a new tub (roughly $5).

Using PVC  as the screen support - as I did in my boxes -  is questionable.  I've asked several soil testing groups about pvc leaching into the soil, the consensus is that unless it's burned, rigid pvc is stable (though incredibly toxic to manufacture).  It's the pliable pvc products containing plasticizers- things like i.v. drip bags and baby teething rings - that leach phthalates when heated. The resulting residue can cause havoc with the endocrine system.   (I'm no expert.  If you know about this stuff, I'd love to hear from you.)  I've got plenty of links if you want them, though they're mostly inconclusive about using rigid pvc.  It's safe to use for drinking water, but no doubt about it, the stuff is nasty.

I'm going to replace the 4" pvc pipe screen supports in the boxes I made with heavy duty plastic disposable drinking cups.
..............

I made the trellis support system out of pressure treated lumber and thin wall metal  electrical pipe, clamps, and wire - all cheap and available at Home Depot.  It takes some basic construction knowledge and tools to put them together.  The idea was to use the weight of the tubs to support the trellis system without making holes in my roof.  I also wanted it to be sturdy enough to keep up year round and not worry about it getting blown off the roof.   If you weren't as concerned with it blowing over, 1" pvc would work just as well and is easier to work with.

I don't have any specific links to the trellis because I came up with that, though I was inspired by this photo.

You can buy the trellis netting here.

.................

Last summer, watering the 30 boxes on my garage roof every day or two was a hassle.  This year I'm looking to automate the process, but I haven't worked all the bugs out yet.  The Earthbox® company makes an automatic watering system, but it costs about $25/box and they only work with official Earthboxes®.   (Because the Rubbermaid tubs are taller than the official box the valve won't reach to the bottom of the reservoir. )

Donald 1800 is a frequent poster on the Earthbox® forum who has a great post full of pictures showing the official automated watering system at work.  He doesn't think it's worth the time or expense to make your own automatic watering system.

This is a link to a  DIY watering system.  Because my boxes are homemade and I've got so many, I'm going to try something like it.

I used lightweight potting mix as recommended by the Earthbox® planting guide.  Each of my homemade boxes used 2 cubic feet of mix (don't use potting soil, it doesn't wick water properly and your plants will die.)  This year we're thinking of following Donald 1800's recipe for better potting mix/fertilizer.

In a comment to this diary, Leilasab mentioned a promising product that I wanted to include here.

Gaia Soil, "Ultra-Lightweight and Eco-Friendly"

"The main ingredient in GaiaSoil™ for Green Roofs is non-toxic recycled expanded polystyrene foam coated with an organic pectin, and mixed with high-quality finished compost.  The Gaia Institute’s proprietary, patented process makes GaiaSoil™ for Green Roofs almost 50% lighter than any other green roof growing medium."

It's not available outside of NYC, but they told me that they're working on getting production/distribution licenses for other locations.  It looks promising for use in self-watering containers, we'll have to try it out.  As it was designed to have the same capillary action as soil, it should wick water up the internal soil column inside the boxes.  It sells for the very reasonable price of $4.50 per cubic foot, plus trucking costs.

A few helpful forums/blogs -

Low Cost Container Gardening Ideas

The official Earthbox® Forum.

Container gardening at GardenWeb.

Inside Urban Green, "Modern methods of growing food, foliage or flowers for the millions of us who are not green thumbs".

If you want to see the photo essay that complements this diary, please go on over to our Flickr page, or google the phrase "Flickr rooftop vegetables".

•  Good diary, Bruce.

  Will they grow in the Midnight Oil also?

  by TomP on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:45:21 PM PDT

  •  Different Bruce ...

    ... but, yes, they will.

    by BruceMcF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:51:19 PM PDT

•  Hope you're composting up there too!

  Worm boxes work well too. :)

  by discocarp on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:47:08 PM PDT

  •  We've got composting bins on the ground...

    and yeah, the worm boxes work great.

    by Bruce F on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:04:13 PM PDT

•  Cool! Where in the city are you doing this?

  I've been thinking about this for a while. Hell, I'm on the board of our building, so I bet if I had a plan, it might be considered.

  by iconoclastic cat on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:53:50 PM PDT

  •  Our Location

    We're in Wicker Park. It's about 1.5 miles NW of the loop.

    by Bruce F on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:02:14 PM PDT

    •  Okay, this is going to be my new project.

      I'm going to contact you soon about more information, okay? If you have any other resources, please post.

      Excellent! Thanks for the flame under the butt!

      by iconoclastic cat on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:06:15 AM PDT

•  very cool :)

  I'll be doing the fire escape as I can't use my roof.  It runs across the back of the building so I can use the space between apartments, which is generous for a FE. Will also be using the large kitchen windows with a shelf system (all day light/sun till sunset). And then I have my CSA for the bulk of my produce. I'll be growing the few things that I wanted more of last season. beans, spinach, herbs, small tomatoes. And if the cats don't eat the window garden, I'll grow them some nip out on the FE  ;)

  now to go read up on earth boxes! Don't think I've seen those before.

  Our parks dept held a class on rooftop/fire escape/anywhere you can gardening. I didn't find out in time though  :(

  by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:57:29 PM PDT

  •  Sounds great. But, um, be careful

    not to block access through the fire escape for its primary purpose -- escape from fire.

    Shouldn't need saying, I know. But sometimes people can get carried away with enthusiasm. Don't do anything that would make your local fire department require you to remove it all!

    by Canadian Reader on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:50:13 PM PDT

    •  Fortunately, the ladders are directly

      out our windows, so I have about 15ft of space between them that is basically dead space. And it's the back of the building so not a huge risk with the FDNY.  :)

      I was raised in earthquake territory, so I'm real big on escape routes, lol!~ but a very good point!

      by nycstray on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:14:42 PM PDT

•  Middleway Food Works

  (find them here) is rehabbing a building which will include a kitchen, classroom space, and a rooftop garden.

  They had a structural engineer come in and check to make sure that the roof was strong enough for putting 2-3 feet of topsoil on it.  A sensible precaution. Also, since a garden will retain water, instead of water running off, you need to be sure that the weight of the water in the soil will not collapse the roof.

  by Dar Nirron on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 02:58:47 PM PDT

•  With the increase in food cost people will be

  looking for innovative ways to grow food themselves within the space they have to work with.  These are some interesting options.

  by Rachel Griffiths on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:00:26 PM PDT

•  ALWAYS check that the roof in question

  can handle the support.

  Green Roofs are meant to be very low maintenance and since they cover the entire surface of the roof, they must be a very modest weight.  The point of a Green Roof is NOT to hold large quantities of water and growing media but to hold a small amount of water and a very lightweight growing media in order to grow a modest amount of biomass.  

  Otherwise, you would be doing the equivalent of putting an inch or so of water and a few inches of soil on a flat roof that is not designed to support that weight.  Green Roofs are very tightly designed in order to minimize maintenance and weight.

  Now roof top gardens are a different animal - the weight is distributed unevenly, they are high maintenance (nothing dries out faster than a windy location) but still, always check before you try anything.  When we had our roof replaced, I asked about slate roofing.  There were two problems - cost and the increased load which our house was not built to take.

  I attended a presentation on Green Roofs and was both impressed on how efficient they were and how tricky they were.  After all, you were taking a roof which was meant to drain off water quickly and efficiently and redesigning it to still drain off water:

  Without washing away the growing media.
  While retaining a controlled portion of water.
  While growing plants that were adaptable enough to take heat, drought, occasional inundations, high winds - without growing too tall.

  New builds have gotten ambitious enough to provide growing media deep enough sustain larger and showier  plants - but nothing too tall.  A strong wind could just rip plants out by the roots.

  by Fabian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:03:52 PM PDT

  •  All good points....

    I think we came up a good answers to the questions you raise.  We're looking to improve on it, that's one of the reasons that I put up the diary.

    For example, this link, which is at the Flickr site, gets people thinking about things like drainage, safety, weight, etc.

    A "Green roof" means different things.  To the design community it is a lightweight growing medium covered with sedum.  This cuts down on the heating /cooling load on the building and , at least here in Chicago, reduces the rain water that goes into an overloaded sewer system.

    We want to broaden the definition of green roof and we think that it's something that ordinary people can tackle.

    by Bruce F on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:14:32 PM PDT

    •  There's a huge difference in concepts.

      Actual food production requires the quantities of growing media and water you need for significant biomass production.

      Green Roofs seek to minimize the water, media and biomass and maintenance.

      You could create a hybrid version that emphasized low biomass, horizontal beds instead of vertical growth.  Grow greens, lettuces, small root crops, and other short season crops plus some herbs.

      In one of my catalogs I saw customer photos showing the boxes being used to grow sweet corn.   It struck me as the perfect example of what not to grow - a large biomass plant with a lot of vertical growth(susceptible to winds), a long growing season, a heavy feeder, wind pollinated(more like hand pollinated) and all of that for a few ears of corn.  I guess if you really had to have sweet corn it might be worth it.

      by Fabian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:29:42 PM PDT

      •  Well, if you really have to have real sweet ...

        ... its either that or drive out to the countryside and make it there.

        by BruceMcF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:55:35 PM PDT

        •  BruceMcF, I think I screwed up

          I can only plead ignorance, this is my first diary.

          I added the tag Midnight Oil after the first commenter asked a cryptic question.

          by Bruce F on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:01:13 PM PDT

          •  It's a great diary Bruce and a worthy topic

            You did a good job with it.  

            I've followed the links and gotten some good ideas for my gardening.

            Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

            by bronte17 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:31:46 PM PDT

            •  Thanks for the kind words

              by Bruce F on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:51:33 PM PDT

          •  No dramas, mate ... and it brought the diary ...

            ... to my attention, so I could add it to the Midnight Oil diary roll.

            The cryptic reference is because my "blog within a blog" here at the Daily Kos has a running pun, since its so often written in the wee hours of the night, "Burning the Midnight Oil", and because it always closes with a clip from the Australian Alternative Rock Surf Rock Indigenous Rights Rock group Midnight Oil.

            TomP probably just got us confused, since take out a Mc and add a space and my username would be (ahem) not disimilar to yours. Its kind of like that old Monte Python sketch.

            Actually, add a clip from Midnight Oil to your diary, and you've got the precisely same basis for using the tag ... its not like I own the tag! ;)

            by BruceMcF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:02:18 PM PDT

            •  Not disimilar is right.

              Always nice to meet another Bruce.

              Glad you like the diary. I started to figure some of the back story after I added the Midnight Oil tag.  Kind of like reading the instructions after you've tried, and failed, to put something together.

              by Bruce F on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:12:54 PM PDT

•  neat!

  thanks. I don't have access  to a roof, but there's a ledge that will hold some containers.  

  by bread and roses on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:05:09 PM PDT

•  tis a good idea

  but this
  or any roof that can handle the weight
  really needs to be paid attention to.  People often aren't aware how heavy dirt and water is, big boxes of those can do unwanted remodeling.

  When placing these on a roof, deck, or similar surface, make sure to slightly raise them off that surface so that air circulates and the area drys out; also clean litter out from underneath.

  Having said that, southern exposures can give unexpected results, especially on concrete surfaces and with a wall on the north.  Much of my back yard is a concrete pad, there's a garage directly north as close to the property line as it could be built.  That reflects sun onto planter boxes and the concrete,  I put plastic milk jugs filled with water between plants as well.

  The water jugs kept things from heating up too fast, they and the concrete pad radiated heat after sunset.  I was picking vine ripened tomatoes and chili peppers past Halloween in many years (PNW climate, real freezes are rare that early but the highs drop off rapidly in September.)

  by wondering if on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:09:28 PM PDT

  •  Yes, weight is an issue...........

    The boxes weigh 80 lbs when the water reservoir is full.  You should ask an engineer, architect or builder before you proceed.  

    There are some big ideas in those little boxes. Check out this schematic.

    You can't use ordinary dirt in these containers, you've got to use lightweight peat moss or the internal wicking action won't work properly.  

    by Bruce F on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:25:11 PM PDT

    •  Peat moss? Then what's the nutrient source?

      Peat moss provides no nutrition for the plants and won't hold a heavy plant, like say fruiting bell peppers or eggplants, upright.  Not to mention that it dries out easily necessitating much watering.

      Why not use compost instead?

      by Involuntary Exile on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:13:06 PM PDT

      •  Good question

        A lot of what goes on in these self watering containers is counter intuitive for "normal" gardeners.  There are some pretty sophisticated ideas at play here.  I'm not responsible for any of them, but encourage you to look through the links at the Flickr page for a more detailed explaination.

        There is a one time application of a  slow release granular organic fertilizer that is placed on top of the potting mix (essentially peat moss).  There's enough nutrients in this application to last throughout the growing season.  The whole container is covered with a plastic sheet that keeps the fertilizer from washing away/releasing all at once,  acts as a mulch cover, and prevents evaporation at the same time.  This is part of what lets the official box claim better results with fewer inputs.

        The top 2/3 of the tub are for the growing medium, the bottom third is the water reservoir.  In one corner of the box, a column of potting mix sits down in the water, constantly staying wet.  As the plants up above need water, they draw it through the potting mix.  If you use compost, the water won't wick properly through the soil. If you look here, you'll see the cut-away of the official box.  (We think it's better to make your own though.)

        As long as you keep the reservoir full, and there's an overflow hole that keeps you from over watering, the plant gets enough water.  Last summer, the bigger water using tubs were using 6 gallons every other day.  This year we've worked out a simple automated watering system, so there's no need to manually fill the tubs.

        by Bruce F on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:41:52 PM PDT

      •  Bruce pretty much covered it

        you can have some coarse sand and perlite in with the peatmoss, and make the top layer a bit thicker as well as adding a bit of silt and sand to it.  But you'll still have to stake or trellis heavy plants.

        These are cousins of hydroponics. The idea is to give the roots plenty of water while still keeping them aerated; as well as have nutrients added continuously through the leaching of the fertilizer at the top.  Nutrients that aren't captured on their way down end up in the water, where the plants eventually grab onto them as the water is wicked up into the medium.

        by wondering if on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:13:10 PM PDT

•  I grow..

  1 vegetable in my living room each evening watching the news.  

  by lzyltnin on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:28:15 PM PDT

•  But...

  where would I put the solar panels??

  My roof isn't suitable because of the slope.  But I have enough yard to be doing gardening at ground level.

  However, there are a lot of triple-deckas 'round heah.  I hope some people will take advantage of that flat roof style.    

  by mem from somerville on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:47:45 PM PDT

•  Is that

  fennel I see over to the right?

  by Nulwee on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:36:52 PM PDT

  •  Yes

    Good eye

    by Bruce F on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:42:56 PM PDT

•  i am trying out

  square foot gardening in our yard this year.  my sprouts are all coming along quite well.  

  by jlms qkw on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM PDT

•  Gaia Lightweight Soil

  Research this product developed by my college biology teacher, Dr. Paul Mankiewicz. He was working on it 17 years ago in NYC and it's around now; he's also around doing green roofs. The soil is ultra light weight and is meant for use in growing plants, esp. edible plants, on existing rooftops without need for structural reinforcement.

  This article includes contact info for Dr. Mankiewicz who has patented the soil and wants to spread the technology. The soil weighs about 10 pounds per cubic foot; most roofs can only support 40 pp ft according to the article, and most soils weigh 50 pounds +.

  http://www.thefreelibrary.com/...

  See if that helps.

  by leilasab on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:20:05 PM PDT

  •  Sounds like an interesting product

    The rooftop program in NYC looks great.    

    It's important that the growing medium be lightweight, inexpensive, and wickable.  Soil/compost is a non-starter for roofs.  The growing medium in our containers is potting mix, which is primarily peat moss, which is not as lightweight as the Gaia product.  

    Gaia doesn't have a whole lot of information on their product on the website.  Do you know if they sell to individuals? If it works for vegetables too?  How much it costs?

    I'll ask them directly, but thought I'd try you first.  

    by Bruce F on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:53:39 PM PDT

•  Good discussion

  good for you (and us).

  You might be interested in: Energy COOL:  Vertical Urban Gardening

  by A Siegel on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:31:46 PM PDT

•  Very cool, thanks for sharing

  I'd love to link to this in an upcoming diary I want to do as well as perhaps use a couple of your pics if you are amiable.

  Here's an article I'd just found about San Francisco:

  Taking it to the rooftops
  Things are looking up for urbanites who have little or no yard space
  Nicole Spiridakis, Special to The Chronicle
  Saturday, March 31, 2007

  When Susan Hunter walks up the hill to her Upper Market neighborhood home, it's easy for her to see how much sun her small rooftop garden is getting -- all she has to do is look at the line of fog. On clear days, her cherished tomatoes receive a decent amount of light.

  "It's trial and error," said Hunter, a senior analyst at Pacific Gas and Electric Co., and one of many San Franciscans who grow such gardens.

  In New York City and Washington, D.C., rooftop gardens are almost de rigueur for row-house residents who lack yard space.

  Chicago embraced the "green rooftop" concept in 2000 when it planted 20,000 plants on the roof of its City Hall. More than 100 species were in the garden, including shrubs, vines and two trees, according to the city's Web site. The plants, selected for their ability to thrive in the rooftop garden's sunny, windy and arid conditions, consist mainly of prairie plants native to the Chicago region.

  ...

  I'd already been thinking about creative ways we could grow our own food in challenging places if only so that we become more connected to what we consume but I hadn't even thought of fire escapes and the possibilities there.

  Last summer I was stopped by some architectural/engineering students polling the public for what they'd like to see in a residential apartment building. My answer was rooftop community gardening and connecting to the rest of the city/town with walkability/public spaces, local urban food. Hopefully that idea will spread.

  by CSI Bentonville on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:52:59 PM PDT

  •  Please feel free to link to this

    that's what we're hoping for.  The Flickr pictures are public and easily linked to.  Though if possible, we'd like people to say where they got them from.

    We're looking for more ways to build "green roof" projects that allow for growing food and don't require complete building overhauls. This diary (and yours) are one way to encourage others to think along the same lines.

    This is my first diary here at dKos.  Like a lot of other posters, I think that what I've put together deserves a wider audience.  I've tried to pick up clues from the FAQ pages as to the best way to "promote" it, but imagine that I'm not doing everything I could.

    If you have any ideas on what else I can do, please let me know.

    by Bruce F on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:51:19 AM PDT

    •  Oh yes, happy to help :)

      Check out the New Users Guide from the Welcome New Users series put out by ek hornbeck which should have a new installment this evening about 11pm Eastern. I believe he's focusing on his third anniversary here this week but you can ask anything in comments of each diary and expect an answer (or several).

      Among some of the things you can do is publicize your diary the open threads. It's called pimping if you are promoting someone else's diary and whoring if it's your own. I'm not usually big on those sorts of references but for some reason I'm not bothered by them here. While it's acceptable to make a mention in the open threads with a link (preferably storyonly/permalink), it's not as acceptable in other people's diaries. However, if it's related to the subject of a diary it's usually welcome to mention it with a link and explanation of why it pertains to the one you are posting in (along with a bit about their diary to show you read it and aren't just using them -- it's all about respect).

      You did a pretty good job on the tags (though I'll probably fix them up a bit more). It is best to use tags that are well used rather than cutesy or using tags as part of your commentary. Singleton tags are useless to getting your diary seen and basically serve as database clutter. People bookmark tags for those subjects that interest them. Others add them to their RSS feeds or My Yahoo pages. I have about two dozen on my personal My Yahoo page as well as having the "food" tag in my personal dKos blogroll (which you can check out by clicking on my name if you wish). Plus tags are searchable. So, it makes sense to use tags people will look for rather than coming up with ones people don't ever think of. If I'm not going to have it on my page/feeds/blogroll/bookmarks because it's never been used, is it going to serve any purpose to use it?

      Heh, sorry about my rant on tags. A lot of people just don't get them and still others abuse them.

      If you flesh out your diaries a bit more to include a bit more information and perhaps some resources, how it relates politically and to Democrats then you stand a good chance of getting rescued. I've had two out of the last three of my diaries rescued. There are rules though such as it can't be a highly trafficked diary and has to fall within certain time frames for a particular day to be in that day's list.

      However, you did get 30 comments and 41 recs which is pretty good especially for a first diary and considering a possible burn-out on food diaries yesterday which there were quite a few more than normal. Usually if there is one diary on a subject that does very well (as there was yesterday) others won't do nearly as well as the diary that peaked (but it's possible they do better than they would have otherwise). Food/Garden/Human Interest/Community diaries tend to do better on the weekend too (though I think nothing is more political that food).

      All together the recs and comments your diary received put you at 39 out of 349 diaries that were posted. Not bad at all.

      ~~~~

      I will certainly give you attribution. I don't believe in stealing other people's work or ideas. You certainly deserve credit and links especially if I used the photos. It's great that you're so willing to share. :)

      by CSI Bentonville on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 08:03:40 AM PDT

      •  Thanks for the ideas

        I put almost all of the Flickr "how-to" text (that's full of links) into the diary. Hope it's not too much info.(?)

        You mentioned additional tags, any specific ideas?

        by Bruce F on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 08:54:39 AM PDT

        •  Looks like you've done some adding...

          of your own...

          Garden blogging, Learning, Teaching, Green, Environment, Sustainability, Community, Grassroots, Chicago, Organic, Food, Activism, Water

          :)

          They are mostly quite good but I'm going to change "Garden Blogging" to "gardening" as the first is mostly reserved for the franchise of Frankenoid's Saturday morning series. There's a series called "Feminisms" as well as one called "Class and Labor" but unless one if writing an installment for those series or about those series then one's tags should be "feminism" or "class" and/or "labor" as a further example.

          I'll also add, urban, photos, and Illinois.

          ~~~~

          Hope to hear more on your project in future diaries.

          by CSI Bentonville on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 08:55:39 PM PDT

•  Looks like I missed this diary by a few days...

  But congrats on the rooftop gardens. I was wanting to do that when I was in a place in Baltimore that would have been suitable.

  As for self-watering, I've been playing around with 2 liter soda bottles. I'll rinse them out good (Despite what Coca-Cola says, plants don't like Coke, even the diet variety) and then use a hot needle to poke a hole in the cap. You can make really tiny ones that way.

  You also need to put a hole in the bottom, or else the surface tension will keep it leaking out of the cap. I've gotten them so they only drip once every 8 seconds... haven't been able to time a full bottle yet, but it has to last at least 10 hours I'd think. If you get the hole in the bottom just right, it's big enough to fill them from.

  Now, I just need a stand to put the things inverted in among my plants, and it's poor man's drip irrigation. Any suggestions welcome.

  by NoMoreNicksLeft on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:34:26 AM PDT

  •  Try these links

    Check out this Distinguished Professor's site for some really creative, low cost ideas  on how to grow plants in containers.

    Also the Path To Freedom people have a lot of interesting ideas on how to do things cheaply in the city.  Their website is hard to navigate, you'll need to spend a little time there.

    Once the diary went off the front page, the comments stopped.  I don't know how to change that, dKos is a huge place and  it's hard to get noticed.

    Thanks for leaving a comment.....

    by Bruce F on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:13:58 AM PDT