Daily Kos

Hospital Surge, Exercises and Pandemics

Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:01:00 AM PDT

Have you ever participated in a school fire drill? If you have, you've been part of a live disaster exercise. And like fire drills, the health system (including hospitals and public health) need to run their own drills to see what works and what needs to be done better so as to be better able to handle a natural disaster like the California wildfires or a pandemic. We ran an interesting drill last weekend to practice how my local area would respond to an influenza pandemic.

Part of the the health reform task is to make sure that natural disasters such as hurricanes, wildfires and (yes) influenza pandemics can be approached and mitigated by improving medical and public health infrastructure. One way to do this is to examine and improve the ability of hospitals to care for an excess number of patients for at least short periods of time. However, this can lead to concern about playing the fear card, and overdoing response. Despite those concerns, there's need to plan for surge.

California has led the way, with careful definitions:

A healthcare surge is proclaimed in a local jurisdiction when an authorized local official, such as a local health officer or other appropriate designee,3 using professional judgment determines, subsequent to a significant emergency or circumstances, that the healthcare delivery system has been impacted, resulting in an excess in demand over capacity in hospitals, long-term care facilities, community care clinics, public health departments, other primary and secondary care providers, resources and/or emergency medical services. The local health official uses the situation assessment information provided from the healthcare delivery system partners to determine overall local jurisdiction/Operational Area medical and health status.

Healthcare surge is not the frequent emergency department overcrowding experienced by healthcare facilities (for example, Friday/Saturday night emergencies). It is also not a local casualty emergency that might overcrowd nearby facilities but have little to no impact on the overall healthcare delivery system.

As defined above, a healthcare surge will directly impact a provider's ability to acquire and manage resources under their normal procedures.

This means that during times of stress to the system, usual standards of care will need to be switched to what's called 'essential care', the provision of which will mean different standards than what the public is used to.

An influenza pandemic is an example of the type of natural disaster that would require health care surge. As an update of where we are at with H5N1 and bird flu, try this piece from the Times (UK):

It is now five years since the present outbreak of H5N1 avian flu first infected people. Though 379 people have since contracted the virus, of whom 239 have died, it has yet to start a pandemic.

As its name suggests, bird flu remains predominantly an avian disease. While it is very dangerous to humans who catch it, this has happened only rarely, after close contact with infected birds.

This week, however, brought some alarming news. Writing in The Lancet, a Chinese medical team confirmed that a 52-year-old man who contracted H5N1 in Jiangsu province last December almost certainly caught it from his 24-year-old son, who died. It is the best-documented case of human-to-human transmission to date.

That is important because, if this virus is going to start a pandemic, it must first acquire the ability to move readily from person to person. Not enough people are ever going to catch it from birds to constitute a global threat. The Chinese case, like a previous suspected human-to-human incident in Thailand, has thus raised fears that H5N1 might be mutating in worrying fashion, and it was duly reported around the world.

The details of the Lancet study, however, are less troubling than they at first appear. This investigation of this cluster of infections, indeed, is somewhat reassuring because of what it shows has not happened.

It has not become easier to catch, and human-to-human (H2H) transmission remains rare - but not unknown. Similar H2H spread was also documented in Pakistan last year, in a case that involved a family member traveling to the United States. But whether the next pandemic is H5N1 or some other virus, pandemics are inevitable. Since it's not a matter of "if", but "when", planning has to occur to cover the areas where we will be short. In other words, since 20-30% of the public will be ill, pandemics will cause the health system to run short of staff, space and stuff... the exact things that surge tries to alleviate.

There's only one problem... no matter how hard you try, you'll still run short. And for that reason, even creative solutions will need to be coupled with unpleasantry in the form of rationing. Whether it's rationing of space or of resources, triage of pateints will be an inevitable consequence of too many ill and not enough resources.

More on the flip...

  • ::

This triage discussion has already begun. New York State, for example, has developed ventilator triage in the event of a pandemic:

Ventilators may be in short supply in a flu pandemic, so New York state officials have drafted guidelines to determine which patients would get one if there weren't enough to go around.

Similar suggestions have been made for ICU beds.

Development of a triage protocol for critical care during an influenza pandemic

California takes it one step further:

The new "surge capacity guidelines"  - which authorities hope will serve as guidlines for hospitals nationwide, especially in the event of a pandemic - calls for letting older, sicker patients be allowed to die in order to save the lives of patients more likely to survive a catastrophic public health crisis.

"During a major disaster, the heath care system will look very different from what we are accustomed to," said Dr. Mark Horton, director of the California Department of Public Health. "These guidelines will help communities as they plan how to sustain a functioning health care system following a catastrophic event such as a severe earthquake, bioterrorism attack or outbreak of pandemic influenza."

So, with that grim background in mind, 40 local businesses and organizations where I live and work decided to explore a different method of surge.

In the event of a pandemic, the hospital would be overflowing with patients. To alleviate some of the bed crunch, the area nursing homes and extended care facilities would pool their available beds, accept transfers from the hospital to free up bed space, and utilize empty beds remaining to act as a 23 hour alternate care facility for flu patients. The Ottilie W. Lundgren Memorial Field Hospital would be set up adjacent to an area nursing home (not the hospital), and the parking garage would be used as a drive-thru (stay in your car) flu clinic...

For more details on the drill, see the news reports and the video:

The concept here is that if local nursing homes and rehab centers join the hospitals and the public health departments (a public-private consortium), and get volunteers from the nursing schools and EMT classes, communities can work together to mitigate disaster. That doesn't make disasters go away (you can't stop a hurricane or a pandemic), but at least you can work on rational response to increase that which you are short, and try to minimize the amount of rationing that will have to be done.

To minimize is not to eliminate. Tough choices would still be made, and home care in one form or another would still be needed. To that end, personal preparation never stops being needed. More people would need to be cared for at home than in the hospitals, and without decent home care, planned in advance, and including food and water so as to be able to stay at home with ill family members (HHS recommends two weeks of food and water be stockpiled by all Americans), increased surge capacity will not be enough.

Through websites like www.getpandemicready.org and Flu Wiki (both of which I have contributed material to), and though service organizations like American Red Cross and Lions Clubs, and professional organizations like Trust for America's Health and the American Academy of Pediatrics, serious steps are being taken to prepare.

Now, a brief word about drills and exercises. The outcomes are: we did it well, or we could do it better. They always succeed. That's because even when things don't go as planned (and they never do), there's something valuable to be learned.

The drill we undertook was therefore successful (it was the first panflu live exercise ever done in the state), but there were valuable lessons to learn. One is that just-in-time training has to be intense. Another is that a single drive-thru clinic in a severe pandemic will not be enough. And yet another is that the response has to be community-wide, and include the public (our volunteers numbered in the hundreds), to make it work.

There's more work to be done... the results need to be reviewed, and improvements implemented, and the new plan trained to, and drilled again. But in planning and practicing surge, the community is strengthened for whatever disaster comes, and thereby helped. This is a practical example of how planning for pandemics can bring communities together, help rebuild infrastructure, and thereby contribute to health reform.

For more blogging on pandemic exercises, see The Pandemic Flu Drive-Thru Clinic Exercise and Pandemic Flu Exercise part II. For state pandemic exercises, see Efforts To Improve in Connecticut. For CDC drills, see Flu Stories: CDC Practices and Plans For An Influenza Pandemic While Hong Kong Executes and for HHS drills, see What's The Role The Internet Will (And Should) Play During A Pandemic?. The question is not why these people are exercising. The question is why aren't you?

Tags: healthcare surge, pandemic preparedness, pandemic exercise (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 87 comments

  •  local help and response is key (20+ / 0-)

    BSA troop 137

    and from the rehab place that hosted the drill:

    anda h/t to plutonium page for technical help.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:24:38 AM PDT

  •  more pics (7+ / 0-)

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:36:32 AM PDT

  •  I meant to post a link yesterday (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, Powered Grace, Fabian, deepfish

    a man in E. Asia received Avian flu through a family member. I wasn't doing my taxes ;) but I was swamped with work.  'Sure you've seen it by now (hopefully).

    Plus, he knows what crapped out means, which will help him explain his condition on the morning of November 5 - PBCliberal

    by Nulwee on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:14:03 AM PDT

  •  Unfortunately (4+ / 0-)

    I know a major hospital last year that had an influenza A case that they misdiagnosed as a bacterial infection. Countless visitors were let in to see the patient. It was a few days before the  resident figured out the diagnosis. I was one of the visitors.

    •  yep... it's not always easy (6+ / 0-)

      to diagnose the first cases, but when it's the middle of flu season, it gets easier.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:17:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'll bet that patient was put on (5+ / 0-)

      vancomycin unnecessarily, too. The way many hospitals use antibiotics without reason, it's like waving a red flag in front of Darwin's bull.

      "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

      by shpilk on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:30:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, but it's not easy (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Janet Strange, G2geek, terabytes

        If someone is severely ill it often takes time to find out what the problem is. If they obviously have an infection are you going to watch them get sicker without treating them for easily treatable bacterial infections? People aren't hospitalized unless they are in danger of becoming critically ill and losing their life or limb. I agree that hospitals overuse antibiotics and that there should be some protocols in place to reduce this use...but outpatient antibiotic over use is easier to reduce. Patients aren't as ill. Even then, I see undertreatment and suffering due to this.

        Basically, it makes me mad that physicians are blamed for antibiotic resistance and veterinarians who prescribe mass antibiotics to be placed in cattle feed are allowed to continue this to this day. This practice is entirely based in increasing profit. Obviously, they don't care about the plight of the poor cattle. Of course, it doesn't help that the USDA is now a toothless entity filled entirely by moles from the meat industry. Hmmm, guess which administration this happened under.

        Funny how everything comes back to the debacle that was the 2000 election. I don't even have to try!

        An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

        by rini6 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:58:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the 2000 election (0+ / 0-)

          was the Y2K disaster, it just came late when people had let down their guards.

          (And as for the original Y2K but, the reason that became a "non-event" is that the geek universe was on the case 16+ hours a day fixing it.  You can imagine what would have happened instead if Bush had been running the country when something like that happened....)

  •  No offence ... (0+ / 0-)

    ... but the sky isn't falling.

    Flame on.

    •  None taken. There are no hurricanes scheduled (6+ / 0-)

      for landfall today, no bioterror event, no floods, no dirty bomb incidents, well, you get the picture.

      I have an irrational faith in reason.

      by the fan man on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:23:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  indeed not (8+ / 0-)

        otoh, a healthy chunk of Americans absolutely refuse to think about 'bad things', so you're not alone. Still , if you want medical care and the red cross to be there, someone has to think about it. it doesn't happen by magic ;-)

        The survey findings reveal a deeper understanding of why Americans are so ill prepared, and suggest clear strategies for closing the gaps. The findings help us understand both the non-rational and rational processes at work for most citizens. The non-rational side includes the 38% of the public who say that among the reasons they have not planned is that they simply would rather not think about what would happen in a public health crisis, as well as the 44% who do not believe in worrying about things that may or may not happen in the future.

        That's true even in hurricane zones.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:30:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  perhaps this explains (6+ / 0-)

          The findings help us understand both the non-rational and rational processes at work for most citizens. The non-rational side includes the 38% of the public who say that among the reasons they have not planned is that they simply would rather not think about what would happen in a public health crisis, as well as the 44% who do not believe in worrying about things that may or may not happen in the future.

          why so many idiots in California build their mansions on the sea cliffs which are steadily eroding away -- and then act all surprised when their mansion falls into the ocean in a few decades.

          Or why so many rich people in Florida build their mansions along the coast, and then act all surprised when a hurricane comes by and scours it down to bare sand.

          Or why people out West build their houses in wildfire zones, and then act all surprised when their house gets burned to a crisp.

          Editor, Red and Black Publishers http://www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

          by Lenny Flank on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:37:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  having money is it self a mitigating factor (5+ / 0-)

            Some much so that those with money often assume they will go to the front of the line in any emergency. Not an irrational assumption based on their own life experiences, i.e. always having hospitals and specialist finding time and space for them etc. In Katrina wealthy tourists were sent Blackwater soldiers to take them from harm's way while the poor were left to drown. They can not imagine a circumstance where that will not continue to be true.

            fact does not require fiction for balance

            by mollyd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:11:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Excellent point (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              truthbeauty

              I was recently reading up all over again about Wal-Mart's role in Katrina because of a diary posted here. It wasn't as altruistic as so many thought and in fact it was opportunistic (a company with a brand new PR agency in dire need because Robert Greenwald was about to release a damning expose on them) but only after they tried to play their special privileges card.

              In Walmarts emergency command center, the director of ‘business continuity’ was busy co-ordinating their own contingency plan for their 89 flooded and damaged stores, with the help of managers, trucking experts and loss prevention specialists. “Johnson already had scores of Walmart trucks moving into the disaster zone, some under police escort, carrying more than forty generators and several tonnes of dry ice to deliver to stores that had no power but millions of dollars of perishable food in the inventory.” A replenishment team was reordering likely demand items like mops, bleach and water. Following Doan’s arrangement, over the next two weeks officials also tapped Walmart for tyres for the Port of New Orleans entire fleet of emergency vehicles and chainsaws and generators for rescues.

              [emphasis added]

              The above from a blog post elsewhere that starts out with this:

              On Walmart and Katrina
              (from the 'Disaster' book again)

              All over the web you can find stories glorifying Walmart’s role in the post-Katrina tangle and their ability to leverage supplies in a way that FEMA was unable to (Walmartfacts.com, Stephen Hibbs, an assistant Wal-Mart manager in Dallas is quoted: “After Hurricane Katrina, my father called me to let me know how proud he was that I worked for Wal-Mart. That’s exactly how I feel every day” ). It’s much harder to find mention of of government official Douglas Doan, who had the idea to tap Walmart as an emergency supplier.

              “A few hours after the world first learned that the New Orleans levees had crumbled, the phone rung on Douglas Doan’s desk, at the Dept of Homeland Security in Washington. A very angry man from Walmart was on the line.”

              Ray Bracy, the company’s vice president for federal and international affairs, was furious that the National Guard was looting Walmart and he wanted to know what Doan was going to do about it. But the National Guard were not being greedy. They didn’t have the supplies to give the people they rescued, so they were breaking into Walmarts to get them. The chainstore was “involuntarily serving as the region’s FEMA warehouse”.

              ...

              It goes on to talk about how Homeland security’s auditors were furious about receiving a bill from Wal-Mart and how other companies more altruistically tried to provide help and assistance but couldn't get through to anyone to arrange it since the hurricane already had a sponsor... [my analysis]

              Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

              by CSI Bentonville on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:43:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  wealth and preparedness (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              truthbeauty

              One:  An individual grows up as a child in a wealthy household, and goes on to become a wealthy adult: they have always had a big cushion of wealth between their butt and the bumps in the road.  Thus they have learned to deal with emergencies by writing checks rather than by being physically prepared.  These individuals are likely to be caught off-guard when something happens.  

              Two:  an individual grows up under conditions of economic deprivation, and then through their own ferociously hard work, manages to become wealthy.  

              a)  In some cases these individuals will have strong memories & learning based on having hit some very hard bumps in the road during their childhood and early adulthood, so they will be well-equipped to cope with disasters.  Such individuals are also more likely to engage in purely altruistic actions such as putting their wealth to work for  the community during a disaster.  

              b)  In some cases these individuals will have instead learned the lesson that they "have what it takes" to overcome anything, and will tend to overestimate their ability to overcome a major disaster.  

              Three:  an individual grows up under conditions of wealth, but as an adult, falls into economic deprivation for example as a result of getting caught on the wrong side of boom/bust cycles.  

              These individuals tend to have in common the experience of discovering that early advantages can't be counted on, so they fall back on their brains, muscles, and learned skills.  Over time this becomes the basis of a skill-set that can provide advantages in disasters including the ability to organize "cheap & effective" measures to mitigate disaster impacts.

              ---

              About idiots in California:  Yes, I routinely see houses on steep hillsides in the Oakland hills, propped up on steel & concrete piers, just waiting for Ma Nature to throw a 7.0 quake at them.  At which point they will go sliding down the mountains, snowballing with other collapsing homes, into a sliding pile of debris like a mudslide that takes out everything along the way in its race to the bottom.  

              •  Excellent reply (0+ / 0-)

                Though in my experience it is those who are "self-made" who most often forget what it took to get wealth, forgetting any luck that occurred along the way and in retrospect over-estimate their abilities most. They also forget the energies that are related to being young.

                And often those who inherited wealth who are most sympathetic to those without. I think some do realize that without the head start their abilities would not have taken them far.

                The neocons who did indeed inherit an upper middle class start, have evolved a philosophy that merit is generational, that while laughable allows them to feel a share in efforts they never undertook. Of course, this delusion will make them especially vulnerable in a real emergency situation; if one emerges that money can not mitigate.

                fact does not require fiction for balance

                by mollyd on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:07:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I still find it hard to believe, but I know (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          DemFromCT, berkeleybarb

          you're correct. I think some of the negative comments are a result of media fatigue. As with all other issues we're facing, coverage tends to sensationalize rather than educate. I just read an AP article about moving hoof and mouth disease research to Texas (a bonehead move in my amateur opinion). The article's real kicker was what was to be expected in a serious outbreak of hoof and mouth. "The national guard is predicted to run out of bullets needed to put down sick animals and quell food riots". Ok, now I can deal with this rationally.

          I have an irrational faith in reason.

          by the fan man on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:38:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I love that sig!! (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            the fan man

            and I think the negative comments are important, so long as it's accompanied by reading the material and clicking a few links ;-)

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:42:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  The most extraordinary (9+ / 0-)

    accounts I know of about medical disaster response are doctors' diaries kept after the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. There are at least three such books written by MDs who were there, plus part of the famous Hiroshima report published in the New Yorker.

    There isn't a lot of discussion of triage in these books. I think the damage itself just took care of that: almost everyone who was going to die, did.

    But these diaries often show that individuals made a big difference, and that certain choices made at crucial times did have important consequences and saved lives.

    Preparedness is a good idea. If it is not a flu epidemic, it might be something else. We keep acting as if atomic disasters will never happen, but the danger will never really go away.

    Keep up the good work!!

    Whoever considers one person's life more valuable than another's will soon find himself unworthy of his own.

    by rilkas on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:28:28 AM PDT

    •  everyone who's going to die... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      rilkas

      ...in a nuclear attack:  Those are usually blast/burn fatalities and radiation doses in excess of 600 Rads.  

      This is important for laypeople who might be reading this, to understand:

      Radioactivity isn't contagious.  The picture changes entirely when dealing with contagious diseases, so the technical aspects of treating patients will differ accordingly.  What's important about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki accounts is the attitude and methodology that doctors brought to the situation, rather than the technical details of treatment.    

      •  good point (0+ / 0-)

        You're entirely right that a contagious disease disaster would require very different protocols than a nuclear disaster, which is really more like an earthquake or other sudden natural disaster.

        Of course, in the aftermath of such disasters contagious diseases like cholera can result from loss of fresh water supplies; malnutrition from disturbed food distribution can lead to increased susceptibility to various diseases, and so forth.

        I was very impressed by the atomic bomb aftermath narratives. The enormity of those events and the unbelievable capacity of the survivors to continue on really help to place the trivialities of life in perspective. I'm concerned that today's young people are no longer as exposed to this literature as we were during the Cold War. They contain important lessons for humanity. It's crucial to observe that the Japanese response to nuclear disaster was pacifism; the American response to 9/11 was militarism.

        Whoever considers one person's life more valuable than another's will soon find himself unworthy of his own.

        by rilkas on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:56:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  responses to disasters (0+ / 0-)

          The difference in responses is understandable.

          Japan had just been hit twice with a weapon the world had never seen before, that had the capacity to cause enormous destruction in an instant and ongoing death from something invisible.  

          We effectively overwhelmed Japan's will to fight, which was significant considering that the entire culture had been on a warrior footing right up to that point.  

          OTOH, the 9/11 attack was a conventional attack using conventional technologies, and did not pose an existential threat to the US, and did not overwhelm our will to fight.  Had we been attacked by UFOs with death rays, the outcome might have been different: we might also have been overwhelmed and become a pacifist culture.

          Going to war in Afghanistan by itself would not have added up to the US being a militarist culture: that war could have been wrapped up more quickly had Bush not pulled resources out of Afghanistan to go into Iraq, and then we would have been into the rebuilding phase in Afghanistan.

          Instead, we suffered the anthrax attack, most of us immediately assumed it was part of a pattern with 9/11, and most of us were led to believe that Iraq had WMD capabilities.  Thus we grouped Iraq with Afghanistan in our minds, and were more likely to accept the Iraq war as part of the legitimate exercise in national defense that began with Afghanistan.  

          Once you have a war of necessity (Afghanistan) plus a war of choice (Iraq) plus a doctrine of pre-emptive war, plus a doctrine of an executive branch that is above the law, those things together are the pattern for a militarily aggressive government.  But the US culture itself followed the Regime's cues up to a point and then eventually came to disbelieve the Regime.  So I would not say the US culture became a militarist culture except insofar as naturally occurs when families see their sons and daughters going off to war.  

          And at this point most of us are sick of it and want it to stop.  It would not be surprising if we ended up on a more isolationist footing within a few years, as the toll of the Iraq war becomes more widely known (e.g. with respect to permanently disabled vets and so on).  

  •  Important topic for health care facilities (9+ / 0-)

    More than drills, I think education for providers and staff is essential.  Most of us have no meaningful knowledge of how to behave in such a crisis, and conducting drills before giving staff the necessary knowledge base will only reveal the obvious:  nobody's ready.

    I think of all the effort and expense of getting ready for JCAHO accreditation at hospitals.  It's a vast amount of time and money with a rather limited payback.  Expending similar effort on getting ready for pandemics or natural disasters would go a very long way toward getting us ready.  It would also show where money needs to be spent, such as on effective face masks.

    Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

    by Dallasdoc on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:28:47 AM PDT

    •  exactly (9+ / 0-)

      this drill followed a year's worth of lectures and presentation to medical staff, mayors, EMTs, nursing homes, etc.

      That's why we had 40 organizations participating.

      BTW, new joint Commission standards will have your medical facility prepare for" stand alone for 96 hour" functioning, with hurrincanes and pandemics in mind.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:32:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Whoa! (4+ / 0-)

        I mean, it's a good thing, but four days of stand alone is a huge undertaking.

        Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

        by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:53:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Dallasdoc, G2geek, Fabian, Pris from LA

          better plan for it, eh?

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:06:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  BTW is that no power, no water (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pris from LA

            no supplies?

            No power is tough, but doable.  No water - that would be just an incredible hurdle.

            Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

            by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:15:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  plans will need to be considered (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              G2geek, Fabian, Pris from LA

              the folks in NOLA had no potable water in some of the hospitals.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:34:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not sure what JCAHO exactly requires, but... (8+ / 0-)

              Some new hospitals have plans for water tanks to provide 96 hours of water.  All are moving toward 96 hour diesel tanks for their generators.

              Construction projects often trigger the need for these types of contingency plans.  I had a 300 bed client who lost their sewer connection during a construction project.  The construction documents did not have the location of the sewer on them (it was not copied over from the as-builts provided to the architect).  The mistake was found when the sewer was punctured during construction, and filled with concrete. The hospital had to use pumper and tanker trucks for a few weeks while the concrete filled pipes were dug out, replaced, and the replacement pipes connected at both ends.  

              The thing that always concerns me is the reliance of many hospitals on contracted services for emergency backup.  Many now have no materials warehouses in the hospital, relying on just in time inventory delivery from either an owned or a vendor supplied warehouse to the care delivery unit.  Food and linen will also run out at most hospitals within 1 to 3 days.  They often have only 24 hours of clinical supplies, plus a small "stat stores" area with backup supplies in case a unit runs out before the truck comes.  Stat stores is not intended as a long-term backup, just enough to get by for the rest of the 24 hours til the truck comes.  Same issue with food - most hospitals receive daily just in time food service delivery, at most they have 3 days on hand.  Contracts usually include a clause that in the event of emergency, the hospital comes first, but if the supplier is completely closed down, that clause isn't going to be worth much.

              BTW, I recommend exatly this operating model to my clients.  Until a crisis hits, it is the most financially sound way to operate.  Most hospitals operate very close to the financial edge, and nobody pays them to maintain surge capacity.  If you want it, that's great, but it's expensive and somebody has to pay for it.  

              •  surge can't be provided by hospitals alone (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Dallasdoc, Fabian, terabytes

                and to make that point, our drill weasn't even at the hospital ;-)

                it takes a village, so to speak...

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:54:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  contract clauses, bah f---ing humbug. (0+ / 0-)

                Contracts and other paperwork are meaningless when shit hits fan.  That whole approach to emergency "management" is the result of the rise of the administrative sector over the hands-on professionals who are responsible for actually making stuff work.  

                I have nothing but contempt for pro-formas and checklists based on pro-formas.  

                The most useful thing to do with all that meaningless paperwork is to stockpile it for use when the toilet paper runs out.  

                As for skating the financial edge, cutting CXO and high executive salaries back down to something reasonable and spending the difference on stockpiling emergency supplies will go a long way.  

                The reason our health care system is broken and hospitals are teetering on the brink is that every spare dollar has been sucked up by parasites, including some of the people who run the hospitals.  What's needed for the whole system is a bleach dunk or a trip through the autoclave to kill off the parasites entirely.  

    •  Oh boy do I agree! My wife's an RN in a fairly (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dallasdoc, berkeleybarb

      prestigious hospital in a wealthy NYC suburb. No education, no drills, nada.

      I have an irrational faith in reason.

      by the fan man on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:32:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  we're not ready (4+ / 0-)

        plain and simple.

        But we're making progress. The american nursing association and the american acedemy of pediatrics came out with some recommednations this year.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:36:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  nature is being kind to us... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Dallasdoc

          by holding off the pandemic until we have a competent administration in office.

          Both Obama and Clinton can be counted on to be competent managers, including when disaster hits.  (Obama supporter here.)  

          Even McCain would probably do a better job than the idiot presently in charge, who has screwed up every single thing they have touched, like a King Midas of Poo whose touch turns everything to poo.  

        •  yo Dem from CT: Add this to your list... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mollyd, Dallasdoc

          Shared air in apartment buildings.  

          There have lately been apartment smoking ban ordinances passed in some cities on the basis that one person's smoke gets into another's apartment.

          What that tells me is that one person's cough micro-droplets will do likewise, and any airborne pathogens will do likewise.  

          Thus, apartment buildings where you can smell your neighbor's smoke (or cooking smells, or bathroom smells) are an enormous contagion risk: you can catch your neighbor's bugs.  

          What's needed here is not to ban smoking (or cooking pork) in apartments, but to change the ventilation systems such that there is no way to "share the air" between apartments.  Good old fashioned windows that open would be a good place to start.  

  •  I have personal eperience... (11+ / 0-)

    ...of life in a health care facility during an apprehended and incipient pandemic.

    SARS in Toronto in 2003 coincided with open heart surgery + post op infection and complications and a long stay in ICU and convalescence on my part.

    I witnessed first hand the degradation of the healthcare system from inside.

    Something as simple as mask and glove protocol can degrade performance, morale, and staff health. Imagine having to breathe through a fabric or paper mask for hours at a time. I saw nurses experiencing anoxia.

    Expect hysteria. When I was readmitted to hospital with an extremely high fever and trouble breathing it was at first thought that I had SARS or something worse. My isolation was complete until they found out that I had staph aurius. Still, my employer had to put up with parents keeping their kids home from school "just in case" I had infected the premises.

    I did not have a single visitor allowed other than my mom, dad, and wife, for wks at a time.

    North America has not had a rel pandemic since early last century. My Great Grandfather returned home from WWI to a flu epidemic at home. He did the onl sensible thing... he crawled into an abandoned farmhouse with a couple of bottles of alcohol and some cheese and sausage and waited a few weeks to come out.

    Can we afford to do better?

    DFooK

    "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

    by deepfish on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:55:50 AM PDT

    •  You ask exactly the right question (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DemFromCT, deepfish

      Can we afford to do better?

      We probably need to, but the money will come from 1 of 3 places.  1 - higher health insurance premiums.
      2 - higher taxes.  3 - higher deficit/debt.

      While I won't argue that hospitals are efficient (yet), they have gotten a LOT better at running their businesses over the years since '87 (when cost based reimbursement pretty much went away).  A lot of the low-hanging fruit on the provider side has been picked.  If you want more, it will cost more.

      •  yep (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        deepfish

        and while I take Mccain to task for not thinking properly about access in his plan, Obama and Clinton need to wrestle with cost.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:56:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Or 4 (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Janet Strange, G2geek, terabytes

        Efficiencies like a single payer system...

        My cardiologist back home in Quebec had been a specialist down in the States (Johns Hopkins).

        His practice in the States grossed a lot more than his practice in Canada, but he told me that in the States he and his two partners had to hire an office staff of five just to deal with the paper work of insurance claims. He barely saw patients for longer than it took to say "Hi, your EKG looks okay, bye" since he himself was buried under correspondence and insurance forms.

        In Quebec he had his own office with two part time nurse/secretaries. He grossed a lot less but wound up netting slightly more. He also got to spend lots more time talking to and consulting with patients.

        We spend between 8 and 10% of GDP on health care up here and cover damn near everyone. The US spends what, 13-15% and growing?

        But the scary thing is, to be prepared for a pandemic, we will have to rely on the infrastructure and paid-for quality already in place.

        I don't think that the Canadian system is up to it. I am sure the US system is not.

        DFooK

        DFooK

        "Impeach the Cheerleader, save the world!"

        by deepfish on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:13:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My great-great grandfather died ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      deepfish

      ... during the flu pandemic, plunging his wife and children into poverty.  He had been college-educated; his son had to drop out of school to support the family.

      The real problem with your solution is that I'm sure that there aren't enough abandoned farmhouses to go around.  (Wasn't the Decameron framed with a group of young people, looting from abandoned manors during the Black Death?)

    •  No surprise (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Janet Strange, G2geek, deepfish


      Imagine having to breathe through a fabric or paper mask for hours at a time. I saw nurses experiencing anoxia.

      Yes, and it's well understood by industrial hygienists that such masks are totally inadequate when one must work under demanding conditions. Both because they offer lousy protection, and because they are physically taxing to breathe through.

      Full face respirators, or better yet ventilated hoods, are what that situation calls for. The workers at my local auto body shop have better respiratory protection than do the nurses and doctors at my local hospital.

      That could be rectified. No rocket science required. Just intelligence, determination and money.

      However, absent all three, as is the case today, expect for health care workers to get slaughtered by inadequate protection in any kind of a serious respiratory pandemic.

      --

  •  This is a major issue (5+ / 0-)

    US healthcare and emergency facilities are really not ready for the onslaught of patients in such a situation. This is one area where our Homeland Security efforts have fallen short.

    •  Define "ready". (5+ / 0-)

      If you mean prepared to treat every patient, no they aren't and never will be ready.  It's an unrealistic goal.

      If you mean prepared to triage and outsource and change standards in order to provide more, but lower quality, care - then that's the goal.  

      There's just simply no way to crank up the capacity of the existing medical personnel and facilities to meet the needs of a pandemic.  Even if you could get the equipment and facilities - you'd still have a shortage of trained medical personnel.

      Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

      by Fabian on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:13:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  bingo (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        G2geek, Fabian, Pris from LA, berkeleybarb

        that's why home care is such an important part. Move standard of care to essential care, but realize where you fall short.

        based on our dril, we think we can manage some outpatient care (maybe a lot as long as supplies last), but not inpatient care. So different standards of care will have to be used.

        See California, and the news story I quoated about rationing.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:37:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is soooo depressing (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pris from LA

    Why don't we focus on avoiding a pandemic?

    Isn't there something they can do to change the situation?

    I'm sure that the conditions that the birds in China were raised and slaughtered in were less than sanitary.  At the risk of sounding condescending, xenophobic or racist, the relationship that some of the Chinese have with nature and animals is pretty horrific and can't be a good thing.

    I know that it's an unscientific way of looking at things, but I'm sure that there is scientific evidence that close contact with the birds was related to the epidemic and that certain measures would reduce the risk. I know, I know...good luck implementing any change......

    An eye for an eye and the whole world will be blind.

    by rini6 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:26:33 AM PDT

    •  It's not xenophobic or racist (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lemming22, SMWalt, Pris from LA, redtex

      The Chinese government has elected to adopt capitalism, but in large part have neglected to adopt any modern concepts of science, responsibility, worker's rights [so odd, for a supposed Communist country, to not have worker's rights, isn't it?].

      Humane treatment for animals is at the extreme bottom end of their priority list.

      Every time one buys anything made in China, it's a crap shoot. My SO just bought some bowls 'Made in China', and I am concerned the paint has lead in it. There's no way for me to tell, of course.

      "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

      by shpilk on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:35:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  indonesia is another hot spot (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lemming22, terabytes, Pris from LA

      and they are failing.

      THE United States has rejected the Indonesian Health Minister's claims that it is using bird flu samples to produce biological weapons and World Health Organisation officials have condemned allegations of conspiring to profit from bird flu vaccines. The Indonesian President, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, is understood to have ordered the minister, Siti Fadilah Supari, to recall copies of her book on avian influenza, which alleges the US and the WHO are conspiring against developing countries by seizing control of bird flu samples

      believe me, people are working plentry hard to prevent this.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:41:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Many 1st responders in this country are woefully (6+ / 0-)

    undertrained and underequipped for the hazards they can encounter every day. It goes without saying that an epidemic, industrial accident or 'terra attack' would quickly overload their ability to cope, as well.

    These are my customers, and the application of technology is very unevenly spread - the areas that should be getting the most aid, the metro areas seem to be not getting their fair share, while the money is just pouring into rural States.

    Every day, trains, trucks, barges carry huge loads of hazardous materials through highly populated areas. These are accidents, waiting to happen.

    "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

    by shpilk on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:43:25 AM PDT

  •  Nursing homes (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    G2geek

    Wouldn't moving a bunch of very sick people from hospitals to nursing homes full of old, frail people be a recipe for disaster?

    •  in the midst of a disaster? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lemming22

      any port in a storm. the ones moved from hospital to nursing home would have to be stable.

      That's what's meant by going from 'standard of care' to 'essential care'. And I think it's important for people to recognize just what that means.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:56:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "just what that means" (0+ / 0-)

        ....is battlefield medicine, triage, and choosing to let an awful lot of people suffer and die because there simply are not the resoures to save them.  Nor could there ever be all the resources to cope with a major pandemic, even in a country with universal single-payer health care and an excellent public health infrastructure. .

        And that in turn means that the best preparedness is prevention and staying home in self-quarantine until the first wave passes, and then doing it again when the second wave rolls through.

    •  btw, for this drill (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lemming22

      the nursing home freed up 60 beds in a separate wing for infection control.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:02:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ah, just the person I was hoping to see :) (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lemming22, terabytes

    And I'm not terribly off-topic either.

    Since I know you have quite a bit invested in the pandemics and bird flu issues I was wondering if you could help answer some questions I have that I'm not sure even how to form to ask.

    Mostly I'm wondering about the issues regarding having backyard flocks of either chickens or ducks, maybe even a bit of both.

    I was watching a YouTube on raising a couple hens in one's yard in England and it turns out there's a downright paranoia there where people have killed other people's birds and made daycares and petting zoos get rid of theirs.

    Then I've twice now this last week flu being brewed each year to how closely Asians raise pigs and chickens to their houses while I'd just read a NYT article about farms in Poland that have the animals live in rooms attached to their houses; yet I can't recall anyone attributing outbreaks to solidarity (though I have heard of a few flocks in Europe being gassed in the last year or two).

    My sense has been that raising huge amounts in tiny, dirty spaces are the better petri dish (as with MSRA and pigs) but since that's corporate the bird flu is getting used to control populations that aren't as beholden to industrial food and to make it seem as though the government is taking action.

    You gave me a spot of info on how ducks are more likely an issue but shortly after that I had a guy tell me he wishes people wouldn't get chickens but rather ducks instead because they are more native.

    ~~~~

    So... wondering what your thoughts are on all this, along with your assessment of the dangers of having a few birds, which kinds might be better, etc. Hoping you can help me sort through some of my confusions.

    :)

    Thanks for sharing these insights you have such as on this exercise. Very well done and lots of links for me to chase.

    Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

    by CSI Bentonville on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:52:30 AM PDT

    •  I don't know what the best bird is to have (4+ / 0-)

      I think organic, free range is the way to go. I'd think chickens because they at least have the good sense to die when they get infected. Ducks get my attention because they live to spread the virus.

      I think for Americans the best thing to do is nothing about free range poultry because there's no H5N1 in North America. However, there may be a change in the weather if it ever gets here.

      hey, try this link. And write this guy.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:01:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I left words out =] (0+ / 0-)

        Corrected version:

        Then I've twice now this last week - seen people make claims - about flu being brewed each year to how closely Asians raise pigs and chickens to their houses...

        Sorry 'bout making you translate without leaving behind a decoder ring.

        ~~~~

        Thank you for the steer. :)

        What's interesting about what you've just added is that the guy talking to me about the ducks had as one of his points that ducks are much more hardy and that chickens are constantly catching something and dying off (his deal being that chickens don't belong in the States).

        There is something to be said for vast bodies of water. So, any chance we could transmit the virus back to the birds?

        Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

        by CSI Bentonville on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:37:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no, once it adapts, maybe to pigs (0+ / 0-)

          but not likely to birds.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:45:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  and that... (0+ / 0-)

          how closely Asians raise pigs and chickens to their houses...

          is an issue because of classic mixing vessel (the pig) reassortment.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:46:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hmmm... okay, so then why Asia? (0+ / 0-)

            It seems to be the starting point most times. Is there a reason, and does flu start elsewhere? Have they ever started in North America?

            Is there any truth to the civit cat/SARS association?

            Do we give other illnesses to pigs? Is poultry needed in the triangulation? Did I misuse that word?

            ~~~~

            Sorry, I'm one of those that the more I find out, the more I realize I want to know. Unfortunately, as a parent subjected to it anyway, it's something I passed on to my daughter... who once famously said to me, "Gawd, I hate it when you are right!"

            Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

            by CSI Bentonville on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:14:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  good questions (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              CSI Bentonville, lemming22

              It seems to be the starting point most times. Is there a reason, and does flu start elsewhere? Have they ever started in North America?

              some people think the 1918 flu started in Kansas. But the reason for SE asia is backyard farms, and therefore proximity and population and numbers:

              The above is from a Michael Osterholm talk.

              So, there's an old joke about China to indicate size.

              Q How can China possibly vaccinate 13 billion poultry?

              A Everyone does 10.

              Is there any truth to the civit cat/SARS association?

              Yep. Scientists prove SARS-civet cat link

              Do we give other illnesses to pigs?
              I don't know. Is poultry needed in the triangulation? You need birds, because influenza's natural host is birds and not humans.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:30:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  WOW! =| (0+ / 0-)

                That's a serious increase in the amount of pigs. That has to be a sure sign of the rise of industrially raising them. Given the other increases the bird population is quite small. As you point out, only a few birds per person (cute joke btw; thanks for sharing). I was thinking the other day that before we went veggie, my daughter was a serious meat eater (about the only thing I could be assured she would consume so you can imagine my surprise when she converted -- of course with little warning because that's how kids work and why disasters seem so tied up with them); we would buy the thighs and drumstick special which was 10 pieces and while back then I thought it was a deal especially since I thought dark meat was much tastier and juicier, now all I can see is five dead chickens (and for less than $5 too). Oh, and arsenic. I see arsenic.

                However, did you read about the chicken breast the Olympic scouting team found?

                Wary U.S. Olympians Will Bring Food to China
                By BEN SHPIGEL
                Published: February 9, 2008

                COLORADO SPRINGS — When a caterer working for the United States Olympic Committee went to a supermarket in China last year, he encountered a piece of chicken — half of a breast — that measured 14 inches. “Enough to feed a family of eight,” said Frank Puleo, a caterer from Staten Island who has traveled to China to handle food-related issues.

                “We had it tested and it was so full of steroids that we never could have given it to athletes. They all would have tested positive.”

                ...

                So, maybe they don't need as many chickens as they did before... eek!

                ~~~~

                Regarding the civet cat, I'd thought so but couldn't really find something other than the China Daily article. Was in a diary on cat eradication to clean-up for the Olympics. I'd seen that story too a couple months prior but could really only find that one source for it and the rest of the "publication" seemed to be about celebrity rumor-mongering so I wasn't inclined to spread it. However, someone mentioned how it's pigs that cause disease and what would you rather have living close to you... but I've been finding how we view animals is very cultural (and in fact it was someone casually asking me if I would eat my cat that pushed me over the edge into vegetarianism).

                So anyway, there were several allusions in the months prior to the China Daily article, yet after the initial rush to explain what a civet cat is, that seemed to be saying that pointing at the cat was propaganda by China intended to mislead from the real cause which was probably birds and pig in yards...

                I'm pretty skeptical, especially when it comes from the FDA/USDA, and Industry but some people get ideas and won't release them. That's why I try to be very careful about what I pass on. One person I was exchanging with was convinced the e coli outbreaks from greens were because the immigrant workforce didn't have adequate bathrooms in the fields for their waste or to wash up after. Well, facilities are certainly an issue, at least in regards to human dignity, however to be passing the specific e coli virus that makes people so ill an adult has to actively have an e coli poisoning and is usually very sick but no longer sheds it when better. But the guy was sure the field-hands were all loaded...

                ~~~~

                Thank you so much for your assistance. You've given me much to, um... digest. :)

                Seems to me that flu is the birds' revenge on us for munching on them.

                May I use the animal/human figures in my future chatterings?

                Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

                by CSI Bentonville on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:53:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Oh! And further... (0+ / 0-)

            to the chickens/pig and house vicinity deal, does it occur more often in a family farm situation or are industrially raised/CAFO animals somehow mixing it up? Or, in this case, is there an actual benefit to separating the animals out even if it is to warehouse them (and brew other issues)?

            Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

            by CSI Bentonville on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:19:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  any combo can do it (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              CSI Bentonville

              including poultry workers who get seasonal flu adapted to humans and bird flu and they themselves are the mixing vessel.

              Avian, human flu coinfection reported in Indonesian teen

              Factory farms supposedly have better biosecurity, except when they don't.

              "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

              by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:34:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ps if that Indonesian teen story (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                CSI Bentonville

                doesn't scare you, you ain't payin' close enough attention.

                "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:36:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, I do think I'm paying some attention (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  DemFromCT

                  I guess if I were taking a survey, I'd have to say something about having not a lot of control over the poultry brokers poor decisions (not that I'm happy about that) so am not sure what panicking will achieve for me...

                  However, they are having kittens in London about the whole thing. Here's the original YouTube news report on backyard chickens that had me wide-eyed at their fear which I thought was a bit unreasonable; was I wrong in that assessment?

                  Thank you very much for all the time and resources you've provided me. I have no illusions about security in a poultry concentration camp, but I have wondered if there haven't been birds brought in from Asia for raising. There's certainly the ability to be consuming meat from not just 20 or more cows in a McDonald's hamburger but from cows from that many countries.

                  Mais, la souris est en dessous la table, le chat est sur la chaise et le singe est... est... le singe est disparu! -- Eddie Izzard

                  by CSI Bentonville on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:23:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  You mean? (0+ / 0-)

    I can't just kneel, crawl under my classroom desk and clasp my hands over the back of my head?

    Supposedly that was "the thing to do" if and when the "Communists" nuked my elementary school in 1969.

    How much is enough, Gordon?

    by SecondComing on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:07:42 AM PDT

    •  you forgot (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SecondComing

      I can't just kneel, crawl under my classroom desk and clasp my hands over the back of my head? and kiss your ass goodbye. OTOH, extra provisions in the home was routine in those days.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:18:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  famines preceed pandemics (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    G2geek

    With the recent worldwide food crises, I think this needs to be considered.

    Food riots in many countries now.

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:23:24 AM PDT

  •  You take a barstool and a bucket of bleach... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT

    You put a barstool, a bucket of water with some bleach in it, and you put one of these at the entrance to every bar, mall, coffee shop and grocery store in town. Anybody that wants to come in has to disinfect their hands at the door.

    Do that while the epidemic is going on, and you won't have much of an epidemic.

    That wasn't so hard, was it?

    Oh, and if somebody gets sick, they're treated at home, and anybody that might come into contact with them should get a flu shot.

    Reinstate the Fairness Doctrine!

    by jimbo92107 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:49:45 AM PDT

    •  good plan, except... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      G2geek, lemming22, terabytes, Deep Harm

      ...influenza is spread by droplet inhalation (not contact) so you'll need a surgical mask. And some think it can be spread by smaller particles, so you might need an N95 (OSHA says health care workers do, CDC is not certain what you should do).

      And since there will not be vaccine for six months or more after the pandemic starts (you can't make a vaccine for a flu virus that does not exist), the flu shot idea won't work either. They'll be given tamiflu early on, no guarantees there'll be enough.

      Home care will be needed, and it's a great idea. But because in 1918 2.5% of those who were ill died (that would mean ~1.9 million Americans if it happened today), that might not be satisfactory, even if necessary.

      That's why it's important to talk about it.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:58:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  From a public health nurse in rural MO... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DemFromCT, G2geek, terabytes, Wendy Slammo

    Missouri, believe it or not, has actually led the charge in a lot of ways in pandemic preparedness.  But we aren't ready.  Nobody is ready for this and the whole thing is scary, very scary.

    Not only do we need to be planning for surge capacity in hospitals, we need to be planning for the dead.  If the H5N1 is the strain that causes the next pandemic, we have to remember that the death rate is 65% or more.

    It's very hard to wrap the mind around all the implications of a true pandemic.

    We can make our best plans and yet we will most likely all get caught with our pants down.

    Another thing to note is that the 1918 Pandemic affected the 20-40 age range with a higher death rate than in the younger and older.  The 2007-08 flu season had a higher incidence of illness in that same age range than is normal too.  This is also likely in the event of the next pandemic.

    Best to prepare to take care of yourself, the government ain't gonna be there.

    This is especially true when you consider that the Missouri state legislature has refused any increases in public health funding... which includes money for disease surveillance (my primary job).  Missouri actually cut funding to core public health some years ago and has not raised it above that level in nearly 10 years.

    Just some stuff to think about.

    •  excellent points (0+ / 0-)

      and rebuilding public health infrastructure is a major task we have to adopt.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:01:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  65% of those very sick may die (0+ / 0-)

      One suspects that milder cases .. (like a cold) would not be seen by anyone, and therefore not counted in the cases tallied.

      fact does not require fiction for balance

      by mollyd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:01:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  except that.... (0+ / 0-)

        seroprevalence studies can't find any such mild cases.

        See seroprevalence and also note that in the Lancet study (using blood samples and PCR):

        Furthermore, the scientists found that 91 people had close contact with one or both of the infected men, and yet the virus was passed on only once.

        note also that 2008 numbers are 22 of 28 cases died, and Indonesia is 107 of 132.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:23:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Healthcare in KS checking in... (0+ / 0-)

      Another thing to note is that the 1918 Pandemic affected the 20-40 age range with a higher death rate than in the younger and older.  

      That was due to a hightened immune response in healthy people.  It wasn't the flu, per se, that killed most people in the epidemic.  It was the secondary infections and the person's own immune system overreacting.  We saw it a couple years ago with the flu virus that went around, as well.  We can expect similar problems when the next influenza pandemic comes.  

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