Daily Kos

Israeli security service refuses to protect Jimmy Carter

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:25:14 AM PDT

As Passover approaches, some of you may hear references to "why is this [ fill in the blank ] different from all other.....? " type questions.  It's a (usually humorous) reference to the 4 Questions asked at Passover Seders.  Tradition has it the youngest child(ren) at the table have to answer them.  It's a way of transmitting the oral tradition.  The 4 Questions actually answer the Big Question: "Why is this night different from all other nights?"  

This brings me to Jimmy Carter and his recent trip to Israel.  Why is this trip different from all other trips?  For starters, the only Israeli official who would meet with him was Shimon Peres.  But the real corker was the Shin Bet, Israel's General Security Service, refused to protect him.   That's a big difference from Bush's recent visit which featured 10,000 police officers deployed across Jerusalem in addition to the usual snipers, etc.

Ironic that the guy who negotiated a treaty which has never been violated is now a pariah while a guy who basically ignored the situation for years has Olmert gushing, "Thank God I can conduct political negotiations with George Bush at my side."  

Yeah, I know, Carter doesn't come bearing gifts.  Instead he is going to talk to Hamas, so that makes him wicked evil.  I know, he wrote a book and had the temerity to say what Israelis have been saying for years.   I know, he has this stupid idea that talking is better than shooting.  I know there are only two alternatives here... kill all the terrorists or face extinction.  But hold on a second.   What was it Shimon Peres said?

When you have two alternatives, the first thing you have to do is to look for the third that you didn't think about, that doesn't exist.

No surprise the only Israeli government official that would meet with the "traitor" Carter was Peres.  Yeah, I know, it's easy to ding Peres... "where's the peace, old man?"... but seriously, ask yourself did Sharon really increase security and peace with his iron fist?  

Bush can drop $30 billion of other people's money on Israel and get praised for "leadership" and "vision" from here til Judgment Day, but that don't make it so.   You can agree or disagree with Carter on specific issues, but that doesn't mean his strategy is flawed.   The reality is someone needs to provide a bridge, a mechanism, for dialogue because Peace is not simply War by any other means.  

No one needs to harbor fanciful romantic notions about Hamas to see the importance of talking.  They won an election and then showed they couldn't govern.  They have repeatedly shown their willingness to sacrifice the very people they claim to lead.  They make no secret of their desire to push all the Jews into the ocean.   But they didn't come to power in a vacuum.   The only way to suck the oxygen out of that poisoned atmosphere is to isolate them and build support for alternatives around them.   That requires someone who can and will talk to all sides.

Shunning the people who have stood by you for decades, who care enough about you to tell you the truth to your face and still stand by your side is not the way to go... it's the hallmark of a self-destructive spiral of a zealot.   As Jews approach Passover and reflect over the history of subjugation and liberation, I think it's worth looking at the history of self-inflicted wounds as well.  You can argue that Josephus' account is suspect, but one thing is clear.  The last time Zealots ran the show in Jerusalem, things ended very badly.
 

Tags: Jimmy Carter, Israel, Shimon Peres, Hamas, Palestinians, War and Peace, mything the point (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

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  •  Yeah, you knows things are pretty twisted (12+ / 0-)

    in Israel when Jimmy Carter is treated as a pariah. Jimmy Carter might just be the most respected peacemaker on the planet today. He's the only person to successfully conclude an Israeli-Arab peace agreement, which agreement has worked very well for nearly 30 years. He's treated as a neutral arbiter of political conflicts and elections in some of the darkest corners of the world.

    God, yes, Israel and the United States should talk to Hamas. They were elected fair and square, nobody even doubts that. Sure, we might not like elements of their "platform" etc., but I'm quite sure that they don't like elements of the Likud platform either, so what? The most important thing is that the Palestinian people deserve to be full and equal citizens of some place, be it Israel, a state of their own, or one of the neighboring Arab states.

  •  if not victory than defeat (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jagger, 8ackgr0und N015e, mofembot

    That's what Israel can't accept, but it's a basic logical conclusion. If you cannot defeat Hamas, or anybody for that matter, given that the world community will not allow any wars to conclusion in that region, then you are looking at various stages of defeat as your only alternative. You can even perk up your option by adding the possibility of a draw. But Israelis by and large can't deal wtih that, fearing, quite reasonably that given the great disapratiy in numbers and resoucrces, that once Israel starts to lose, it is only a matter of time until they cease to exist, much like the Crusader state started to lose in 1186 or so, but only ceased to exist in 1291 after a protracted rearguard action of castle warfare. Israel can do the same - sit behind the walls and watch the enemy advance ever closer, but in the end, if they start to lose, they will lose. So when Carter comes in there and tells them that they have to accept whatever organization forcibly takes power among the Palestinians, and admit that they have no control over the Palestinian situation, then he is going to run into a wall of denial. Because as along as Israel is at least in denial about losing, then the long road of defeat has not started yet.

    Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

    by Marcion on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:39:22 AM PDT

    •  so lets summarize (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dashound

      the ultra racist, genocidal arabs have already won so israel better just surrender real quick.  

    •  You are out of your mind, marcion (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      leftynyc, 8ackgr0und N015e, dashound

      The majority of Israelis want a just peace with the Palestinians. In fact, I would contend that the majority of Israel would do practically anything for peace. No, they will not leave, and no they will not give Jerusalem to the Palestinians.

      And, I know I will take some flack for saying this, let us not forget who is the legitimate nation-state and who is the insurgent, freedom fighting rebel. Granted, I would generally side with the rebel, freedom fighting insurgent, but I would not have sided with the South during the US Civil War, and I would not side with the Palestinians' campaign of violence. Most importantly, if one truly want peace, one must give up fighting old battles. No one is asking you to forgive or forget, but just agree to move forward together in peace.

      And, by the way, all the blame can not be laid at the feet of Israel, much of the blame rests with US and British foreign policy and more than is acknowledged in your post must be shared by the Arab and Muslim states who have never treated 'refugee' Palestinians like people, let alone citizens, and who used the issue to deflect away from their own domestic difficulties. In other words, there is more than enough blame to go around.

      •  i'm not blaming anybody (0+ / 0-)

        I think calling the Arabs genocidal or the Israelis Nazis is pointless. It is completely irrelevant who is to blame, except perhaps that blame is a weapon in the propaganda that is part of the war. What is relevant is that Israel exists as an outpost in a hostile sea, and if it starts falling back, there's is no stopping the retreat given the disparity in positions. This breeds a backs to the wall desperation among Israeils and makes them reluctant to make concessions to the Palestians to achieve peace.
        The big problem with the Israeli Palestinian peace process is that it only makes sense for one side at a time. The Israelis would gladly take a peace that is permanent and confirms their possession of the land they currently hold, or even slightly less. But of the Palestinians, this makes sense only as a temporary solution, a means to get the Israeli forces away from them long enough for the Palestinians to regroup and prepare for the next phase of the struggle. The Palestinian goals, given all the factors favoring them, are a short term truce, the gain of as much terroritory as they can, to place them in a better position for the next phase of the offensive. Peace in itself is not a goal, except for short term respite, victory is the goal for each side.

        This is the key mistake that outside peacemakers make going into the Middle East - peace in itself is just a platitude, somethign that sounds good, but it doesnt' satisfy anybody unless it is the peace taht comes after their victory. Otherwise it's just a ceasefire that will last until the power balance shifts a bit more. It is the sort of peace that the Americans would conclude with the various Indian tribes on their borders, a peace designed long enough for more settlers to move in and to get ready for the next phase of expansioin. Except in this case, the Indians are in on the game, they too push for peace to build up their strength for the next push against the settlers.

        Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

        by Marcion on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:05:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not sure I accept your premise. (0+ / 0-)

          There is no doubt there are extreme elements on all sides that would vindicate your formulation.  But they betray the aspirations of the people they claim to champion.

          The fact is most Israelis would trade land for peace.  In spite of that, in spite of Israeli Supreme Court rulings, the rightwing has continued to make matters worse by grabbing land and making impossible claims.   The fact is most Palestinians, prior to Sharon's brutal Operation Defensive Shield, would have supported some settlement with Israel.  That offensive gutted any civil society or civil government that might have been able to offer an alternative to groups like Hamas.  Unfortunately, that left a void which Hamas filled.    That reality is not going to disappear regardless of how brutal things get.

          If you don't address that, then you are just waiting for demographics to overrun you.  

          •  why? (0+ / 0-)

            Ask yourself, why would the Palestinians accept an Israeli presence if it was not forced on them? It's obvious why Israel wants peace, they got most of what they wanted and now they want to enjoy it in peace. But the Palestinians would only accept a temporary peace because they cannot hope at this moment to win anything greater, which peace they will violate as soon as the balance of power shifts to permit them to gain more territory, power and wealth. Humans are logical and selfish creatures, and not peaceful by nature. This is why any peace for land is simply going to be a short term solution that will set the stage for the next round of combat on terms less favorable to Israel.

            Ask yourself, is an occupier took the best part of your land, and then gave you back a little bit to live on, would this reconcile you to the presence of the occupier? Wouldn't you want to change the terms of the division once you were stronger and the occupier weaker?

            Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

            by Marcion on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:25:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Perhaps, but the reality is (0+ / 0-)

              Israel will always be militarily stronger.  The Cherokee, Creek, Seminole, Chickasaw and Choctaw all reached an accomodation with the United States... until some white guys found gold in Georgia and the US decided it was best for the natives if they packed their bags and moved to the other side of the Applachian Mountains.

              There is precedence for this.  

              •  the situation is not static (0+ / 0-)

                If your assumption is correct, and the balance of power remains unchanged, then a permanent peace is possible. But I fear Israeli invincibility is a propaganda myth of Israeil construction, as we can see even in the case of Lebanon, which was once a weak and undefended country but last year handed Israel its first defeat, things change. The Arab nations did much better in 1973 than in 1967. And with insurgency tactics improving and becoming more effecrive every year, I think guerilla armies like Hamas will soon be in a position to challenge the Israeli Army just as Hizbollah did. And once the balance shifts, a peace agreement will be a piece of paper, and the concessions made to secure it will be wasted sacrifice.

                Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

                by Marcion on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:50:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you view this as strictly an occupation (0+ / 0-)

                  then your analysis makes sense -- to a point.  However, the international recognition of Israel as a sovereign nation moots that argument -- outside of the occupied territories.  

                  Here's the problem with your analysis:  Before Saddam was removed, the only legitimate argument Likud had for not recognizing an independent Palestinian state was they were little more than a forward base for Saddam.  However, once he was deposed that argument dried up.   Sharon's invasion in 2002 just added a new justification to why they could never allow an independent Palestinian nation.  Talk about moving the goal posts.

                  The reality is that Palestinians, especially in Gaza, would be better off with a peaceful relationship with Israel.   Unfortunately, there are segments of Israel's society that make huge money off the continued conflict.  So they are not going to enable any efforts on the Palestinian side to deflate it.  On the Palestinian side there are segments that only maintain power because of the conflict, they are not interested in solving it either.  Caught in the middle are the vast majority of people who would be happy to get on with their lives.

                •  the arabs have moved the goalposts (0+ / 0-)

                  winning wars to the arabs now involves not being completely annhilated and dissolving.  merely being impoverished or losing military capability or being unable to defend the populace is no longer defeat.  whereas in reverse any capability to harm the israeli population is massive victory.  it'll be interesting if the arabs that are being fed the racist propaganda ever get tired of this new extra subtle definition of "victory."

                  •  wow. all the arabs agreed to this? (0+ / 0-)

                    Including Egypt and Jordan?

                    •  oh yah it was a huge meeting (0+ / 0-)

                      lol.  not its just the natural evolution of what it means to win in the arab world.  largely media driven and with almost no economic or military considerations.

                      •  Assymetric warfare (0+ / 0-)

                        What you are describing is nothing new, in assymetric warfare in which the two sides have different capabilities, organizations and goals, it is natural to have different victory conditions. At bottom though, victory is always the same, regardless of whether it was achieved trhough total domination and occupation or though decades of small scale terrorist activities - to destory your enemy's will to make war and to induce them to surrender. The Arabs can achieve this victory through decades of slow bleeding of Israel, while Israel cannot achieve victory by occupying and contrlling the Palestinian lands, as has been shown by decades of fruitless occupation. This is why I said in the beginning that victory for Israel is impossible and any sort of trade of land for peace now would be merely the beginning of a long retreat culminating in surrender.

                        Do not rejoice in Hitler's defeat, for though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

                        by Marcion on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 02:45:39 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

  •  Why are the American people not angry (5+ / 0-)

    about an American ex-president and a Nobel laureate being shunned and snubbed by a close ally?  

    Why are the media not talking about this? instead of parsing how the small town folk are insulted by the word bitter?

    John McCain "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian

    by notquitedelilah on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:41:08 AM PDT

  •  Great post (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    8ackgr0und N015e

    I agree with probably everything you say, especially the shameful part about Israel not honoring Carter, someone who actually helped bring peace to the region, but that is really the point.

    I have been asking myself lately how can we ever attain peace without peacemakers? (I was thinking primarily about Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, but the same equally applies to Israel). How come we never hear the peacemakers' perspective? They must exist, but we never see (or hear) them on the nightly news, on the Sunday round table or for that matter, anywhere? It's almost as if they didn't exist, but they do exist. It's just that we in America don't get to hear them.  

    Then a couple of days ago, I read about a Qatari minister who said talking is better than shooting, and I thought, 'Wow, you have to go to Qatar to find someone who not only wants peace but understands how you get there.' And, then I read about a British officer serving in Afghanistan who understood that more troops only brings more violence and that the only way to end the so-called war on terra' is to bring the Taliban into the political process, which makes one wonder why Bush, when given the choice, ratchets up the pressure on Iran rather than tamping it down?

    And, then I came to understand that America is nothing more than a bully. No different than the dominant male chimp one sees on Escape from Chimp Eden (Friday nights at 9:00 pm on Animal Planet). It dawned on me that we, humans, are no different than a chimp, and that we (America) must display our dominance (with Iran) or they might get an idea to challenge us for supremacy, which is kind of odd given that America took out Iran's enemies to the east in Afghanistan and to the west in Iraq. And, then, you will have to excuse me, but knowing this really makes me question 9/11 because without 9/11 they never could have invaded Afghanistan or Iraq, which is what they wanted all along.

    BTW, does the US really give Israel 30 billion in foreign aid? I didn't know it was that high.

  •  yah I think its hilarious (0+ / 0-)

    useful idiot snub.  even today hamas is parading carter around like its own personal pet.  

    •  I think that characterization is a bit off color (0+ / 0-)

      Israel created Hamas.  Israel lost control of Hamas.  If Carter can start to create an option for people to gather around, that should be something to celebrate and support.  I guess it's easier to cash Bush's checks and applaud Lieberman's Party than it is to do the hard work of building a sustainable peace.

      •  all carter is doing (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dashound

        is giving a PR coup to a terrorist who has ordered the killing of over 2 dozen americans.  sure if he could magically transform the hearts of ppl who were privileged enough to be in his presence then the world could start building gumdrop roads.  if we're to judge carter only on his intent then yah he's an awesome fella, but that is pretty much the definition of useful idiot.

        •  who is the real useful idiot here? (0+ / 0-)

          The guy who offers you a chance to dig out of a hopeless mess, or the guy who digs in deeper?

          It would have been simple enough for the Israelis to meet Carter and have a "frank exchange of views" ... they could spin it as "old and trusted allies" who have a "long and stable" relationship that can "endure profound differences of opinion" etc. etc.   That makes them look reasonable and willing to leave no stone unturned while doubting this Quixotic escapade will really help.

          Instead they say "you're on your own...hope you got a gun."

          •  carter is the useful idiot (0+ / 0-)

            I bet hamas will give him some exceedingly useless public statement that will mostly chastise israel after they are done parading him around like he is a contestant in the westminster dog show.

        •  Useful idiots demand support for Israel (0+ / 0-)

          Perhaps Carter is a "Useful idiot". He is yet another servant of the Great American Parasite. Even after the Pro-Israel attack machine dogged him, and Israel snubs him; he continues to kiss there butts.
               America's support of Israel has been an utter disaster. To say otherwise is intellectually dishonest. The only reasons our politicians support Israel and all of its atrocities is due to the overwhelming power of its zionist supporters.
                As a liberal, and as minority; I am quite sensitive to double standards. If Israel were not a Jewish state we would have boycotted, sanctioned and reputiated  the apartied, theocratic, terrorist spawning cesspool.
             Its quite clear after 9-11 that Israel's attempts at forfilling bibilical prophecy has  brought violence to American soil. Personally I dont care if Jewish people are not the majority and I dont care if the state is Jewish. I would prefer America to be at peace in this world without having to tow the burden of a few million bigoted trouble makers who insist God owes them real estate. As for the millions of Palistinians whom probally all have post tramatic stress disorder, I hope one day Israel will accept them as HUMAN BEINGS and Americans too.

  •  Thanks for the diary, BN! n/t (0+ / 0-)

    Reel Bad Arabs: a crash course on Orientalism

    by Rusty Pipes on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:30:40 PM PDT

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