Daily Kos

On Tibet and Propaganda: Follow the "Information"

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:41:55 PM PDT

Breakfast where the news is read
Television children fed
Unborn living, living, dead
Bullet strikes the helmet's head
  Jim Morrison, The Unknown Soldier

PROPAGANDA- ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause.

The propaganda war is on and there are two sides to this coin.

Point in fact for the purpose of this discussion: The Chinese media is controlled by the communist government. No question. Do they use their media to further their cause? Certainly.

Who is on the other side of the coin?
You may be surprised...

This is where the news is fed....

The Chinese are not particularly good at propaganda outside of their sphere of influence.  Their expertise is to control the narrative by shutting down sources of information internally. In these times of immediate access to damn near every iota of information, this is a losing battle for the Chinese.

The stifling of information also gives any opposition opportunity to fill the void with their "ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause".

As a result, it is difficult to get information out of Tibet. We are forced to rely on other sources. The leading source of "information" from Tibet and into Tibet is Radio Free Asia (RFA).

Radio Free Asia (RFA) is a private radio station funded by the United States Congress that broadcasts in nine Asian languages.

Radio Free Asia was originally a radio station broadcasting propaganda for the US-American government in local languages to mostly communist countries in Asia. It was originally founded and funded in 1950 by the CIA.
Wiki

I didn't understand how a "private" radio station could be funded by the American Government and I became worried about the CIA link to RFA so I researched farther.

I was relieved to discover that RFA is not controlled or funded presently by the CIA.
Whew, I feel better now knowing RFA is funded and regulated by the
Broadcasting Board of Governors.

But then I wondered who is on the Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG). I discovered that the BBG is headed by Bush appointee, James K. Glassman. Condi is also on the board. Reading Glassman's bio, I then discovered he is a Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

from wiki...
AEI lists their scholars and fellows on their web site. Some prominent current or former AEI scholars and fellows include the following:

   * John R. Bolton, former U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations.

   * Lynne Cheney, wife of U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney, AEI senior fellow.

   * Reuel Marc Gerecht is a resident fellow. He is the director of the Project for the New American Century's Middle East Initiative and a former Middle East specialist at the CIA.

   * Frederick Kagan is a military historian and signatory of Project for the New American Century manifesto titled Rebuilding America's Defenses (2000) along with his brother Robert (co-founder of the PNAC) and his father and fellow neo-conservative, Donald Kagan.

   * Michael Ledeen was previously involved in the transfer of arms to Iran during the Iran-Contra affair — an adventure that he documented in his book, Perilous Statecraft: An Insider's Account of the Iran-Contra Affair.    
     
   * Richard Perle served on the United States Defense Policy Board and is a former Assistant Secretary of Defense.
     
   * Paul Wolfowitz (Visiting Scholar), A "major architect of President Bush's Iraq policy and, within the [George W. Bush] Administration, its most passionate and compelling advocate.

   * John Yoo, formerly of the Office of Legal Counsel, and a professor at Boalt Hall, is a visiting scholar.

From the AEI website:

AEI's scholars and fellows are responsible for conducting research and writing on subjects of their individual knowledge and interest, disseminating the results of their research through publications and presentations at AEI and elsewhere....

Now I'm worried again. I want to know what's actually going on in Tibet.  Do I trust the Chinese Media? No.
Do I trust information that I know is strongly influenced by the AEI and the BBG? No.
And neither should you, no matter how much empathy you feel for the people of Tibet.

As you can see from the stellar list of war criminals pigs above, the AEI is an arm of  Project for a New American Century (PNAC).

These scoundrels are not interested in Tibet or the plight of the Tibetan people at all.  They are interested in global conflict.

PNAC's credo is officially to muster "the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests". PNAC states that the US must be sure of "deterring any potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role" -

..and who can forget this

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event––like a new Pearl Harbor"

...and then there's this

America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire.

The death of the NeoCon movement has been greatly exaggerated.
They are alive and well and up to their old games.

Remembering the deceit and criminal actions of these Chickenhawks responsible for the current fustercluck in the Middle East, are we to trust them at all in controlling the information coming from and going into Tibet and neighboring regions?  
Are the Tibetans to be the new Iraqis, pawns in a global game of world domination proposed by the rogues gallery listed above?

We have seen distortions by all sides during the current situation in Tibet.  

Stuff like this bothers me..

The Tibetan government-in-exile says up to 140 were killed in the protests ... The U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia said Saturday it had unconfirmed ...
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080405/ap_on_re_as/china_tibet

And there have been some reports on Radio Free Asia that two people were .... Tibetan rights groups say nearly 140 Tibetans were killed, including 19 in ...
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88236362&ft=1&f=2100302 -

Mar 18, 2008 ... "We have unconfirmed reports that about 100 people have been killed ... US-based Radio Free Asia on Saturday also quoted Tibetans in Lhasa ...
www.thaindian.com/news-snippet/

Mar 18, 2008 ... Radio Free Asia, a radio station funded by the U.S. government, .... in India said about 100 were believed dead, citing unconfirmed sources. ...
forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=116551

Radio Free Asia, funded by the U.S. government, quoted a Lhasa resident saying that as Tibetan rioters ransacked shops, police were firing "live ammunition" ...
www.thestar.com/printArticle/346411

The U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia said it had unconfirmed reports ...Forbes

Apr 5, 2008 ... The London-based Free Tibet Campaign said Friday police fired on ... The U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia said it had unconfirmed ...ABC

All of these "unconfirmed" reports originating from Radio Free Asia appear to contradict eyewitness reports from a BBC reporter on the ground during the riots and a German reporter that interviewed local Tibetans in Lhasa that I have linked to below.

Watch and listen to this from Exile Government spokesperson Dawa Tsering as he explains how they gather information for dissemination on RFA  and more shockingly, his rationalization that beating Chinese and Hui people is "non-violent" and that the deaths of the 5 young girls, the 10 month old baby and others that were immolated as they hid from the rioters were "accidents" because they didn't run away fast enough. This is the epitome of bad PR and irresponsible journalism as well as a heretical view of non-violent Buddhism.
I have double checked this and can say that this representative for the Government in Exile said this on Radio France Internationale, But, I know some will claim it is bogus so here's the links.

Source: www.tibet.com
   This site is maintained and updated by The Office of Tibet, the official agency of His Holiness His Holiness the Dalai Lama in London. This Web page may be linked to any other Web sites. Contents may not be altered.
   Last updated: 27-Feb-2008
   www.tibet.com/NewsRoom/newoot1.htm

   Mr. Dawa Tsering, Additional Secretary at the Department of Information and International Relations will be the new representative at the Taiwan office.

   Department of Information and International Relations

   Kalon - Kesang Y. Takla (Mrs.)
   Secretary (Information) - Thubten Samphel
   Secretary (International Relations) - Sonam Norbu Dagpo
   Secretary - Lobsang Tsultrim Jeshong
   Additional Secretary - Dawa Tsering

This is the link to Radio France Internationale's website that verifies the interview took place on April 2, 2008. Sorry, it's in Chinese, but it is a transcript of the interview with Dawa on the official website of RFI.

http://www.rfi.fr/...

   Wiki  
   Radio France Internationale (RFI) was created in 1975 as part of Radio France by the Government of France.
   RFI operates under the auspices and primary budget of the French Minister of Foreign Affairs. It broadcasts in various languages, including English, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Chinese and Spanish.

This is what Dawa Tsering said in Chinese with English translation.


http://www.youtube.com/...

And now a word from a real journalist
James Miles, a reporter for The Economist and BBC, was in Lhasa by chance when the riots broke out he was allowed to stay and was unattended.  Below are some cuts of his eyewitness account that was shown on CNN International on March 20th .

Q. How easy was it for you to see what you wanted to see?

A. Well remarkably so, given that the authorities are normally extremely sensitive about the presence of foreign journalists when this kind of incident occurs.

Q. What you say you saw corroborates the official version. What exactly did you see?

A. What I saw was calculated targeted violence against an ethnic group, or I should say two ethnic groups, primarily ethnic Han Chinese living in Lhasa, but also members of the Muslim Hui minority in Lhasa. And the Huis in Lhasa control much of the meat industry in the city. Those two groups were singled out by ethnic Tibetans. They marked those businesses that they knew to be Tibetan owned with white traditional scarves. Those businesses were left intact.

A. Well the Chinese response to this was very interesting. Because you would expect at the first sings of any unrest in Lhasa, which is a city on a knife-edge at the best of times. That the response would be immediate and decisive. That they would cordon off whatever section of the city involved, that they would grab the people involved in the unrest. In fact what we saw, and I was watching it at the earliest stages, was complete inaction on the part of the authorities. It seemed as if they were paralyzed by indecision over how to handle this. The rioting rapidly spread from Beijing Road, this main central thoroughfare of Lhasa, into the narrow alleyways of the old Tibetan quarter. But I didn't see any attempt in those early hours by the authorities to intervene

Q. When you were told to leave, what were you told?

A. Well I had an 8-day permit to be in Lhasa. That permit began two days before the rioting, on March 12, and was due to run out on March 19. My official schedule was basically abandoned after a couple days of this. Many of the places on my official itinerary turned out to be hotspots in the middle of this unrest. They left me to my own devices. I was stopped by the police at one point, taken to a police station. They made a few phone calls and then let me go back out on the streets full of troops and police carrying out the security crackdown. They insisted however that when my permit did expire on the 19th that I had to leave. I asked for an extension and they said decisively no.


Another report from a Western journalist that was in Lhasa

Georg Blume, a reporter for the German newspaper Die Zeit, was one of the few Western journalists to get into Lhasa after the riots. He arrived on March 15, he said, and saw huge areas damaged by riots, fires and looting.

He says some Tibetans who took part in the riots said they were proud that they were finally able to stand up to the Chinese; others said they were ashamed of the violence.

They complained about social discrimination, unequal pay and rumors that almost everyone had heard that Tibetan monks had been arrested, and even killed, in the days before the riots.

As much reading as I have done on this, I have yet to find any mention of Monks being killed "in the days before the riots".
Where did these rumors originate?  If I have missed something, please inform me.

Who "marked those businesses that they knew to be Tibetan owned with white traditional scarves"? Who spread the rumor that Monks had been "killed in the days before the riots"? Why did this happen just a few days before the elections in Taiwan and the Olympic Torch Relay?

I've previously written on the geo-political and socio-economic forces that must be considered in this region. If you haven't read this, please do so. At least check out the maps I included. (Speed reading is allowed).
Here

The civilian Tibet people were provoked to riot. It was not a religious uprising but a race riot manipulated by a group that desires conflict by any means.

Perhaps the PNAC crowd and their tool George W. Bush are promoting the current instability in Tibet using the issues of Human Rights and Freedom of Religion to further their goal of "A New American Century". A large part of the dis-information is coming from Radio Free Asia, which you can plainly see is an organ for The American Enterprise Institute (AEI) and the warhawks at the Project for a New American Century (PNAC).  Motive and opportunity.

They could actually care less about why people are fighting, just as long as they are fighting.  And if people need a little nudge, they can catapult just about anything they believe to be disruptive into not only the MSM but the only source of information available to the victims of their twisted worldview, The Tibetans, via Radio Free Asia.

Or perhaps the Chinese desire chaos as the sports world turns its eyes to Beijing. This seems illogical and highly doubtful in my opinion. Opportunity but no motive.

Whoever instigated the riots, the result is the angry confrontation of two different groups staunchly arguing two different arguments benefiting only those that desire conflict, and any conflict will do. One side is claiming religious persecution, which is a valid claim.  The other is arguing national security claims as it pertains to border security and access to vital resources. Proposed solutions by either camp leave no room for compromise, which creates the desired effect of instability in the region.

Remember this? It got a smattering of coverage in America when Bush said this during a BBC interview just this past February.

 People have written off the Middle East. It's impossible to change the conditions there. Let's just ignore it. Or let's promote stability, which was part of the foreign policy of the past. I chose a different course. Stability didn't work. Stability created the conditions that were right for these terrorists to emerge and recruit.

You might have to read that two or three times as it is a direct quote from George W. Bush.

During the same interview, he also said..

There's a lot of issues that I suspect people are gonna, you know, opine, about during the Olympics. I mean, you got the Dali Lama crowd. You've got global warming folks. You've got, you know, Darfur and... I am not gonna you know, go and use the Olympics as an opportunity to express my opinions to the Chinese people in a public way 'cause I do it all the time with the president. I mean. So, people are gonna be able to choose - pick and choose how they view the Olympics.

...in a public way?  What does he do in "a private way"? Easy answer, he lets his catapulters do it in the dark, behind the scenes. Stability doesn't work you know?

We are caught in the middle (information-wise) in The War of Propaganda, some of us are aware of this.  Others that rely solely on news from The Main Stream Media and their feeders are not aware of the powerful people that catapult the propaganda and are easily swayed by emotional images, distortion, and the omission of facts from both sides to "further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause".  

The Tibetans are being used. The Buddhist religion is being used.

If the thugs at AEI and PNAC have their way, the ethno-Tibetan area would be no more a "zone of peace" now than it has been during anytime in history. It has always been an area in conflict.  There is no such thing as a brief reading of Tibetan History, it goes on and on, war after war for thousands of years.  

Ancient warriors fought over the Silk Road trade route.  Modern warriors will fight over the oil pipelines that have replaced the old trails through these lands and the waters that flow from its glaciers. The Tibetan Plateau  contains the sources of drinkable water for 1/2 of the world's population. Water, the next oil.

The Chickenhawks have manipulated this into a religious issue, which then creates the Human Rights issue, which if they can properly stoke the fires of fear and hatred, will turn the area into a group of warring states. America (hell yeah) wins.  It would become a Zone of War, "deterring any potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role" - but America wins.

Yes, we are deeply engaged in a Propaganda War best described by Noam Chomski

The beauty of the democratic systems of thought control, as contrasted with their clumsy totalitarian counterparts, is that they operate by subtly establishing on a voluntary basis-aided by the force of nationalism and media control by substantial interests- presuppositions that set the limits of debate, rather than by imposing beliefs with a bludgeon. Then let the debate rage; the more lively and vigorous it is, the better the propaganda system is served, since the presuppositions (U.S. benevolence, lack of rational imperial goals, defensive posture, etc.) are more firmly established. Those who do not accept the fundamental principles of state propaganda are simply excluded from the debate (or if noticed, dismissed as "emotional," "irresponsible," etc.).

There is more here than meets the eye. Even more so when the eye has wool pulled over it. The masters of geo-political jujitsu have twisted progressive beliefs in equality, freedom and tolerance into a means to create chaos and instability to impose their twisted desire for global power at any cost.  

There has to be a better solution than falling into the NeoCon trap. Demonstrating against a flame serves no one but those that thrive on fanning fires of hatred.  An Olympic boycott serves no one but those that try to divide nations instead of uniting them even if it's only to play games peacefully for a few weeks in August of 2008.

Heping (peace)  

Tags: Tibet, China, propaganda, Radio Free Asia, PNAC, AEI (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 93 comments

  •  there are far more than two sides in this (7+ / 0-)

    and while the neocons are fixated on china as an endgame to their machinations in central asia and the middle east - as a way of getting their hands on the chokepoint to china's (and to a lesser degree europe's - economy), they are not manufacturing this so much as spinning it.

    the more interesting split IMO is the potential one between the tibetan youth congress and the dalai lama. not everything is a CIA or a chinese plot. the ability to plot is in all hands, and power struggles tend to make bizarre bedfellows.

    one can oppose neocons without damning the causes they latch onto, just as one can oppose the chinese government's actions without demonizing the chinese nation (or respect the chinese nation without sacrificing one's commitment to the human rights of both chinese, hui and tibetans).

    life is complicated.

    surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

    by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:54:31 PM PDT

    •  The Tibetan Youth Congress (5+ / 0-)

      supports revolution in China.  
      They have told The Exile Government and Dali Lama to "step aside" as they feel the non-violent approach is not working.

      One must remember that the exile community was established and financed originally by the CIA to start a war in China.

      Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

      by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:00:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wonder if the... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        koNko, Zwoof

        ...'Tibetan government in exile' has received funding or other assistance from the Kuomintang over the years as well.

        I'm searching the web now for any connections between the two. Anyone have any info on the subject?

        Thanks.

        •  Happy hunting (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rex Manning

          keep us posted.

          It was not an accident that this "uprising" was instigated just prior to the election in Taiwan.

          Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

          by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:07:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The hunting is a little disappointing. (0+ / 0-)

            I found this:

            China Daily

            After a series of tests and ceremonies, the 14th Dalai Lama was chosen and welcomed to Lhasa in 1939.

            The 14th Dalai Lama ascended the throne under the permission of the Kuomintang Government in 1949.

            I don't consider the source (China Daily) to be reliable though.

            There's this, a reprint of a "UK Guardian" article but not much solid about connections between the Kuomintang and the Dali Lama.

            I did a search to find any contacts between the Dali Lama and the WACL but that returned only one, cryptic, result.

            •  The KMT was the party in power of China (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lotlizard, koNko, xgz, Rex Manning

              at the time they approved of the ascension of the Dalai Lama in 1949. They were extremely weak and fighting the Communists at the time.

              It just goes to the fact that the Chinese with very few exceptions consider Tibet to be part of China, and have so for centuries, irrespective of who is in power.

              The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

              by beijingbetty on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:54:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I've read some historians (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                lotlizard, Rex Manning, beijingbetty

                that conclude that Tibet would have ceased to exist ages ago without protection and assistance for Chinese Emperors.
                The land cannot support the population.

                Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

                by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:01:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  who? (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  xgz, beijingbetty

                  i'm curious. one can argue that it would have ceased to exist without trade, but it's not like the manchu emperors of the qing dynasty (no ethnic chinese emperors ever had much to do with tibetans) spent much time sending food up there.

                  until very recently, it's been largely self-supporting WRT food (ie. lots and lots of tsampa and yak-related foodstuffs, not much else), although they packed in tea and coral in exchange for precious metals, turquoise and salt for ages, both with china and india.

                  surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                  by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:50:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm looking but.. (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    xgz, beijingbetty

                    I now have so many bookmarks, I can't find it.
                    I do have this from perhaps the first historian from the West.

                    As regards Tebet, however, you should understand that it is subject to the Great Kaan. So, likewise, all the other kingdoms, regions, and provinces which are described in this book are subject to the Great Kaan, nay, even those other kingdoms, regions, and provinces of which I had occasion to speak at the beginning of the book as belonging to the son of Argon, the
                    Lord of the Levant, are also subject to the Emperor; for the former holds his dominion of the Kaan, and is his liegeman and kinsman of the blood Imperial. So you must know that from this province forward all the provinces mentioned in our book are subject to the Great Kaan; and even if this be not specially mentioned, you must understand that it is so.

                    Marco Polo

                    It is well known that Khan did not force the Mongol civilization on the Chinese, but instead he himself became Sino-fied to the point where he fell into disfavor with his own people.  This has also been said about the Manchu Emperors.  

                    This exemplifies why nearly all of the 56 ethnic groups refer to themselves as "Chinese". It's more about the Motherland and the culture than who is what.

                    I'll find the other links when I can. sorry
                    One indication would be population statistics that show zero population growth for the period from the Qin Dynasty until 1950.

                    Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

                    by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:07:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  um, the sinification thesis has been debunked (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Zwoof, xgz, beijingbetty

                      for decades now in the field of chinese history. the mongols didn't make the chinese into mongols (as central asian nomads, it wouldn't have made any sense for them to do so; tribal alliances were fluid by definition) but they did transform the chinese state and culture in many significant ways that present-day chinese would assume was always traditionally chinese.

                      the manchus were more aggressive about transforming the chinese, and played quite skillfully with distinguishing between two words that in english get conflated into the category of "china" - zhongguo (the political/historical china) and han (ethnic chinese). while the manchus were very intent on claiming dominion over zhongguo (and, for that matter, tianxia (the cosmological china)), they were adamant that they were not han, and were in fact superior to them on confucian moral as well as nomadic martial grounds.

                      of course, it is precisely the complex ethnic empire that the manchus built, that included tibet but not under han chinese administration, that is the source of the current mess. when the chinese overthrew the qing in 1911 and instituted a republic based upon the ethnic domination of han chinese, those non-han peripheral territories saw their own ties to beijing as severed as well, since their loyalty was to the manchu emperors, not one of their subject peoples. additionally, the chinese trying to force direct rule in an area that had been more or less completely autonomous even under manchu and mongol overlordship made the current crisis unavoidable. had they backed off and left it alone in exchange for changing the nominal national boundary, they probably would have been able to hold onto it without periodic bloodshed and outrage.

                      things don't transition well between premodern empires and modern nationalist states.

                      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                      by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:22:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  As I understand it, (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        wu ming, beijingbetty

                        and I bow to your superior knowledge as I am a recent student of Chinese History....

                        The Qing dynasty was characterized by a system of dual appointments by which each position in the central government had a Manchu and a Han assigned to it.

                        When the Qing Emperor abdicated, the remaining Han then assumed the government and claimed that all territories controlled by the Qing now came under their control.

                        Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

                        by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:36:36 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Zwoof (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          beijingbetty

                          If you visit Beijing Forbidden City and others, you will find many dual language signs in Manchu/Chinese and in older sites, many Molgolian texts.

                          Of course, present day Chinese currancy is multilingual on the back side (top right), and currancy before the 7th issue (Mao) depicted the major ethnic groups.

                          Examples:

                          Photobucket

                          Photobucket

                          Photobucket

                          Photobucket

                          Photobucket

                          Photobucket

                          Photobucket

                          And don't forget my childhood favorite! You can see the multilingual top left, in the cloud of exhuast from the tractor.

                          Photobucket

                          When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                          by koNko on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:05:47 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I've got tons of the old money (2+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            koNko, beijingbetty

                            we call it "small money".
                            I prefer the larger, red 100 Renmibi bills with Chairman Mao. Unfortunately I'm unable to collect many of these.

                            Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

                            by Zwoof on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:12:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  You're close to Hong Kong (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              beijingbetty

                              They have HK$ 1,000 notes. The design is quite attractive.

                              Regrettably, they are only worth RMB901 due to exchange rates, so if you find any floating around I'm willing to take them off your hands.

                              When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                              by koNko on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:20:01 AM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                          •  love that daodejing line (2+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            koNko, beijingbetty

                            and the money. do they still have the old aluminum 1 fen coin?

                            surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                            by wu ming on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:18:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  LOL yes (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              koNko

                              and it is still the world record holder for 'minted coin with least value' in the world, i believe. something to that effect.

                              The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

                              by beijingbetty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:44:16 AM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                            •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              beijingbetty

                              We still have 1, 2, 5 Fen,but every issue they get smaller and thinner, so if you have any old ones, you are sitting on a fortune.

                              They are very useful for negotiating a small discount in the vegetable market, to preserve history and to fill Hongbao of people you don't like (SNARC).

                              When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                              by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:33:46 AM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                            •  Reply to your daodejing comment (0+ / 0-)

                              Thanks for your complement, however, this translation by me is intended to be interpretive and is not at all historically faitful, so it's questionable.

                              Actually, I first wrote it in response to another comment about duty verses loyalty and my interpretation was influanced by that. Daodejing can often be applied in both the negative/positive contexts and it can be quite difficult to translate in an open way. I've found some people studying English text often quite far from the Chinese in meaning, and then there are also some differences in the 3 Chinese versions based on validated historical artifacts.

                              Anyway, I was making an argument so I simply tried to apply it in context of the current political situation and avoid the use of Chinese metaphors or idiomatic expressions that would be unfamilliar to Americans, and I admit there is a negative bias in the last line that's subject to use; "loyal ministers" depends on loaylty to reality, cause or person, no? And it could be negative/positive depending circumstances as well. Obviously I was thinking of the present administation/situation.

                              The original source text is the second verse of Book 1, Chapter 18, the chapter in entirety:

                              大道廢有仁義
                              慧智出有大偽
                              六親不和有孝慈
                              國家昏亂有忠臣。

                              The concept about my first line is harmony playing against traditional notions of filial piety including the respect and devotion required.

                              My second is the appearance of "loalalty" in times of chaos, sometimes a bad thing.

                              Joan D'Arc verses George Bush?

                              When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                              by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:39 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  Sorry, again. (0+ / 0-)

                                I was thinking something but forgot to write it.

                                Regarding first line, a good reference for my negative context is Xiaojing Chapter 5, "Filial Piety in Inferior Officers", it's quite a suitable text.

                                When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                                by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:27:40 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                        •  that was true of china proper (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          beijingbetty

                          ie. the old ming domains, but many of the areas outside of that were not run under that same system, tibet and xinjiang prominent among them. after 1911, it was the military who effectively took over most places (esp. the new modern armies of the post-taiping era), not so much the old qing civil officials. by 1911, the imperial system was pretty much breaking down anyways, and local/provincial elites were often borderline autonomous even within china proper by the time the court officially fell. and then there was the great game in central asia, with russians, brits and eventually japanese all running around propping various warlords and leaders up.

                          when the 14th dalai lama traveled as a child to lhasa from his birthplace in amdo, it was not chinese officials of the ROC that stopped him and demanded ransom, but rather a series of local muslim warlords. the chinese government's grasp didn't even really cover all of china proper, much less places way out there like tibet.

                          tibet had to be invaded in 1959.

                          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                          by wu ming on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:17:59 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  The doctrine of "5 Peoples" (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                wu ming, xgz, beijingbetty

                I would just remind everyone that Dr. Sun, when founding the Nationalist Government from which the KMT decended, established the doctrine of "5 Peoples" including Tibetians as part of the historical Chinese nation, and the CCP also addopted the doctrine as fundamental to the concept of the chinese nation, we refer to as:

                (中华民族) [Zhonghua minzu].

                If you search that term in Goggle or Baidu I'm sure you'll find a wealth of information.

                In fact, China is traditionally a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society with a feudalistic history where borders frequently shifted and various regions (including Tibet and most of Western China)include nomadic groups and a great diversity of ethnic populations from various regions. Today, China has 56 officially recognised ethnic groups, and numerous other ethno-liguistic groups.

                Think "Silk Road", that's it in a nutshell.

                BTW, don't forget the Qing Dynasty (last) was Manchu Chinese not Han, and various others, notably the Mongolian Dynasties established by Genghis Khan which were very influential in enlarging the ethnic and territorial base of China.

                When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:47:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  um, in 49 (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              koNko, xgz, beijingbetty

              the guomindang didn't have any ability to say boo about tibetan affairs. they were losing china proper and hauling suitcases of gold bullion onto ships to taiwan.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:47:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  IIRC, "Tibet is part of China" was one of the few (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          koNko, xgz, beijingbetty

          ...  things the KMT and the Beijing government had agreed on over the years. The KMT never wanted to break up China, it just maintained that it, the KMT, was the legitimate government of all China, rather than the Communist government.

          The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.

          by lotlizard on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:42:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the ROC went even further than the PRC (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            lotlizard, koNko, xgz, beijingbetty

            i bought a map of china in taiwan once that not only included tibet and taiwan, but also outer mongolia, the spratleys/paracels, central asia all the way out to lake balkhash in kazakhstan, and a fair amount of northern laos and burma to boot.

            but then when you have none of it, i guess it doesn't take any more effort to claim everything the qing once had.

            surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

            by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:53:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dormant territorial claims are funny that way... (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              wu ming, koNko, Zwoof

              They stick around and linger on, even if no one is in a position to actively enforce them.

              One of his first official acts when King Juan Carlos ascended to the post-Franco throne in Spain was to make a state visit to the Netherlands and in the name of the Bourbons, finally after 3 centuries formally renounce his family's claim to the Netherlands. Up until that time no Spanish monarch had ever officially recognized the independence the Dutch provinces had won in their 80-year (!) struggle against Spanish rule.

              The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.

              by lotlizard on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:05:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Tough Guys! (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              xgz

              Old KMT and CCP guys can argue for days agreeing on everything but who's boss. The older and thinner, the more tough they are.

              Like this "Fisherman".

              Photobucket

              When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

              by koNko on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:10:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  LOL (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                xgz

                I bet 10 RMB that Lao Jiang's pants are hiked to his armpits under that Mao jacket.

                The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

                by beijingbetty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:48:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  LMAO. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  beijingbetty

                  You are very funny. I think he used some pink plastic bags to tie them up around his neck.

                  But the basket look strangly new, maybe a gift from a visiting dignitary. Typical Shanghainese.

                  When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

                  by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:42:48 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  At one time they were allies (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            koNko, xgz, beijingbetty

            The Communist Party was part of the KMT but felt the KMT was for more of the same control by aristocrats and wealthy landowners.

            Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

            by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:16:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  They agreed on a lot ! (0+ / 0-)

            Only one Chinese government, for example.

            Any disagreements between the KMT and CCP can be settled with traditional Chinese weapons:

            Cho_dou_fu

            Stronger armor piercing ability than depleted uranium and longer lasting than nuclear fallout.

            When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

            by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:03:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  from what i know (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          koNko, Zwoof, xgz

          the guomindang gave up on the whole trying to overthrow china thing in the late 80s/early 90s. that's when the golden triangle former GMD warlords stopped bothering to even make trouble for china (there's a cool chinese graveyard related to them in chiang khong, thailand, if anyone's ever in far norther thailand) and just focused on growing and dealing opium.

          right now, the GMD is bosom buddies with the chinese government. the AEI anticommunist wingnuts like to back the ethnic taiwanese DPP (ironically, in that the DPP is a classic farmer-labor democracy movement party, at least in its roots, but again these neocons are all about enemies of enemies).

          taiwan has a department of tibetan and mongolian affairs, but as far as i know it's pretty vestigal these day.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:46:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Doubt it. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          xgz, beijingbetty

          Traditionally, the KMT tended to focus more on maintaining a tight grip on Taiwan and maintaining it's relationship with the US to keep the wedge in place.

          More recently (since loosing the presidency) the KMT has flipped the table to addopt the role of peacemaker with the PRC, using the opportunity to rebuild it's base and retool it's platform.

          I'm not saying it's impossible,just unlikely.

          When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

          by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:16:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Coincidentally (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            koNko, xgz, beijingbetty

            the meeting between Hu and the Taiwan VP elect just happened a few miles from my house. I feel so historical.

            Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

            by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:19:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You said it, not me. (0+ / 0-)

              I suppose your wife convinced you of that.

              Mei-ling and Ching-ling both have historical residences not too far from where I live (Xuhui) but I claim not to be very knowlegable about stuff that old.

              When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

              by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:14:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Then why didn't they? (0+ / 0-)

        The current unrest is not exactly the Bay of Pigs.

        Proud author of DailyKos's 19 millionth comment! Kind of like winning the lottery, except not.

        by SunWolf78 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:06:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If the PNAC's goals as well as the CIA's (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rex Manning, beijingbetty

      goals are to some extent really for the best interests of America -- if only because they overlap with the corporate/globalist interest -- well, it makes sense that some of the things they do may actually have a valid justification.

      I feel like I just rolled over in bed with a splitting headache and I'm realizing there's someone else in bed with me...uhoh...friend or foe...or stranger?!

      _______________________________
      Healing the universe is an inside job.

      by spotDawa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:13:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think we need to seperate (4+ / 0-)

        the PNAC goals from the CIA's current goals.
        PNAC, AEI took the responsibility from the CIA when they created the Broadcast Board.
        I don't think the CIA is currently involved as they were in the past during the Cold War.

        After Nixon went to China, the CIA could give a rat's arse about China and the Dalai Lama.

        Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

        by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:18:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That makes sense too. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Zwoof, Rex Manning, beijingbetty

          The article from Truthout is a good read, and supports your conclusion.

          But for me, it is still the same thing, regardless of their strategery.  It is Americans manipulating foreign processes.  As they accuse Iran of doing in Iraq!

          I dunno, all I can think lately is I'm so glad I don't have kids.

          _______________________________
          Healing the universe is an inside job.

          by spotDawa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:23:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Check this out (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lotlizard, xgz, beijingbetty

      April 4th, 2008
      Don’t Stop the Revolution!
      Jamyang Norbu (founder of TYC)

      All these years living and working in Dharamshala I have felt myself struggling under a burden of unrelieved frustration and ineffectiveness, often even uselessness. I have no doubt other Tibetans in exile as well as inside Tibet have experienced much the same. But now it seems we are finally waking up from this long nightmare and beginning to realize that what we do has effect, does makes a difference; that we can land a blow – a hard blow – against the Communist Chinese regime.

      The spontaneity of it all was remarkable. Yes, we had the common focus of the Beijing Olympics, but Tibetans everywhere, thousands of miles apart, seemed to be operating on a single wavelength. Some of our more admiring dharma friends would say that our native telepathic abilities were being brought into play. But Anne Applebaum, the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and scholar (Gulag, A History) in her March 18 article in the Washington Post provides a more prosaic explanation ¬¬– cell phones.

      This hints that much of the "information" was spread by a group using cell phones to increase tension in the area.

      Here he seems to advocate overthrowing the Dalai Lama's Government in Exile.  

      I wonder who he wants to appoint as the leader of a new movement.

      I don’t think the exile government is attempting some kind of power grab, as one observer suggested to me. It is more likely that Dharamshala wants to take charge of the movement to water it down. Limit it to candle-light vigils, circulating petitions, wearing black arm-bands and so on, actions which they hope Beijing would not consider provocative, and which would eventually tire and bore all the protesters and activists and persuade them to go home. That much seems evident. Dharamshala just wants to stop the whole thing.

      Dharamshala’s hope, of course, is that if the crisis is stopped it could go back trying to negotiate with Beijing. In spite of all that has happened in Tibet our leaders completely fail to see that this will never happen. It is far too late for anyone, even Beijing, to stop this revolution. Samdhong Rimpoche and his Solidarity Committee can no more stop it than they can stop a tsunami by standing before it. To my leaders in the exile government (which will always be for me the true government of Tibet) I say this with due respect but also with genuine concern: Step out of the way. (emphasis his)

      People need to understand that there are violent groups out there that are using the Lhasa Uprising to further their own agenda that has nothing to do with Buddhism, freedom of religion or compassion.

      Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

      by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:46:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This would be like some outside power inciting (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        koNko

        ... Hawaiians to violence against European- and Asian-Americans, rather than pursuing recovery of Hawaii's independence by non-violent means.

        The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.

        by lotlizard on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:47:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  this is a very familiar pattern (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        koNko, beijingbetty

        to any anti-colonial/anti-imperial/anti-occupation resistance. the thing to remember is that there is a lot of grey area in between within both the tibetan population in tibet, and the exile community, and actions which appear similar at first glance can often be driven by totally different groups for different reasons.

        some of those protesting are critics of the dalai lama, and others are strong supporters. and once any protest meets a state backlash, you get new, unpredictable, spontaneous eddies of action as people make snap decisions.

        nothing new, historically. the chinese went through this in their treaty ports when they were being colonized, with all the same sorts of dynamics, factionalism, and differences of overall strategy for liberation.

        it's a pity so little of the coverage gives much useful nuance. i would love to see what the internal chinese government debate is chewing over right now, away from the state mouthpiece media and predictably outraged nationalist blogger set. to say nothing of some decent interviews with the tibetans protesting in places outside of lhasa, which surprised even my tibetan friends living in the states.

        lots going on that we can only grasp and guess at.

        surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

        by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:01:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm planning to diary this (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          wu ming, Zwoof, xgz, beijingbetty

          Or "have been", because I'd like to provide more historical detail so people can understand the complexity of the situation. But my wife is pregnant now and I'm playing Mr. Do-All so haven't much time to work & complie citations.

          Do you think it's worthwhile?

          Everytime I respond in substance on these issues, seems I elevate my parriah status with certian people here.

          And then there's Secret Agent Zwoof, always beats me in this horse race, one leg at a time.

          When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

          by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:22:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

    but a broken clock is right two times a day.

    Recovering Intellectual. 12 days stupid.

    by scionkirk on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:55:19 PM PDT

  •  The Chinese government... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lotlizard, koNko, Zwoof

    ...won't allow the Western press into Tibet yet the recent uprising there was reported by someone other than the Chinese PLA (including pictures).

    Doing a web news search last week I found story after story about how the Chinese government represses Buddhism in Tibet...and just about each story was accompanied by a recent photo of a serene, devout looking Buddhist monk at some seminary in...Tibet!

    One of the reports I read noted that the rioters/rebels had killed a few hundred Chinese shop owners by burning down their shops...with the owners inside. The same story said the rioters/rebels were attacking Muslims as well. True? Who knows. How can that be verified?

    I'm skeptical about the whole thing.

    •  If you watched the you tube link, (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lotlizard, xgz, Rex Manning, beijingbetty

      I think you can agree that the "peaceful monk"
      meme is discredited.

      It is from a representative of the Tibetan Gov in exile.

      Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

      by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:04:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You can find a first hand account (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      xgz

      By the Beijing Editor of the Economist, who happened to be in Tibet when it started.  There were also numerous first hand accounts reported locally, but seem not to be picked-up by Western news sources.

      Should be available if you Google Tibet & Economist.

      I'd like to note the current press ban was enacted after the incident. Generally, Western News organizations do not have reporters stationed in Tibet or Western China, most rely on Beijing or Shanghai based offices.

      When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

      by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:28:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  However, it is true (0+ / 0-)

        that Tibet has been a politically sensitive region for a long time, and that Western journalists often cannot travel there freely without permission.

        I don't know how much this policy has changed over the years, but it seemed to be improving (until recently).

        This is not true however of the Gansu/Qinghai/Yunnan/Sichuan Tibetan areas, where once inside China one can travel freely, and also somewhat ironically where there are greater freedoms for ethnic Tibetans simply because they were not in the eye of the "Free Tibet" firestorm.

        The sleep of reason brings forth monsters.

        by beijingbetty on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 06:35:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Excuse me while my head explodes. (5+ / 0-)

    Damn.  This does sound very much like the CIA projects all around the world to create instability, overturn regimes, and wreak havoc in the hopes of manipulating the outcome.

      A leading figure among America's more liberal anti-Communists, Douglas wanted the god-king of Tibet to symbolize anti-Communism to Asia's all-important Buddhists. "Millions upon millions look to the Dalai Lama as spiritual head of the church," wrote Douglas. "The measure of their resistance to Communism may be dependent on the word from him." Douglas never got to make his argument in person. Before he could reach Yatung, the Dalai Lama turned down the official American offer and returned to Lhasa. His brother had already flown to New York as a guest of the Asia Foundation, which the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) created and ran.

       A short time later, small bands of Khamba, Amdo and Golok tribesmen began attacking Chinese military posts in and around Tibet. As the uprising grew, the Americans gave their support, supplying equipment and flying small groups of tribesmen to the United States for guerrilla training at Camp Hale high in the Colorado Rockies. The trainees took at least one CIA officer, the legendary Anthony Poe, back into Tibet with them, and also helped the Dalai Lama make his second "Flight to Freedom" in March 1959.

       Once the Dalai Lama was safely in India, the CIA began secretly paying him an annual subsidy and created Tibet Houses in New York and Geneva to serve as his unofficial embassies. As Tim Weiner explains in his Pulitzer Prize-winning "Legacy of Ashes," "The goal was to keep the dream of a free Tibet alive while harassing the Red Army in western China." The CIA also used the growing Tibetan presence in India to help push the Indians into their ill-fated border war with China in 1962.

    http://www.truthout.org/...

    Well this does make a lot of sense.  You've got the CIA, Communist China, Tibet, and the end game of the Second World War.  What the hell else is this going to look like?!

    But, naive as I am, I never thought about it.  If I had ever gone to Tibet, it would have been for spiritual reasons, and in the context of these political forces, it would have been a stupid move.  If you're gonna go someplace like that, best to have a sober assessment of the CIA's interests in that place, otherwise you're a likely tool.

    _______________________________
    Healing the universe is an inside job.

    by spotDawa on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:08:01 PM PDT

  •  The signs are usually in english (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rex Manning

    I've been thinking about this and already knew ir was heavily funded by CIA.  The way to drive them nuts is linkage.
    Tibet and Palestine, together. Package deal or no deal.

                title=

    One of the Dalai Llama's old teachers lives in Madison.  He slips in and out of town. I started spouting off about getting the next Tibet nat'l elections set up in a beer garden last week.  My cousin said he had spoken to his Holiness a while back, and pointed out there had never been elections in Tibet.
    I know that, I said.

    There are some unsavory historical angles here.  It's fun to tweak the Chinese gov, but I'm under no illusions.

    "I can't be part of a famous hippie commune. I have a career to think about" - Candy Crowley, 1973

    by MadCityRag on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:17:29 PM PDT

  •  I don't see the neo-con motive (0+ / 0-)

    Not even the neo-cons are foolish enough to really think they can wrestle Tibet away from China.
    It's clear that Tibet has suffered under Chinese rule, but what is a realistic route to greater self-determination?

    Proud author of DailyKos's 19 millionth comment! Kind of like winning the lottery, except not.

    by SunWolf78 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:00:39 PM PDT

    •  That's not what they want (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      lotlizard, koNko, xgz, beijingbetty

      They have no desire or interest in Tibet other than to create chaos weakening China's rising prominence economically .

      The realist route of course is compromise. Neither side has shown a willingness to do this.

      A "zone of peace" is the proverbial monkey wrench in the works.
      The Tibetan Gov in Exile wants total autonomy with no Chinese military or police in a the ethno-Tibetan territory that includes 4 other very large provinces of Western China.  You can see the map here

      The Chinese position is that this would weaken their National Security which is probably true considering the neighboring countries in that area of Asia.

      Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

      by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:09:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right now one side is willing to negotiate (0+ / 0-)

        the other not.

        As for economic chaos, I have trouble reconciling that with their trade policies.  And these days, economic chaos is pretty contagious.

        Proud author of DailyKos's 19 millionth comment! Kind of like winning the lottery, except not.

        by SunWolf78 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:16:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It appears (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          xgz, beijingbetty

          they both want to "negotiate" but neither wants to compromise.

          Tellin' you all the Zomby troof Here I'm is...

          by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:27:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're mistaken. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          xgz, beijingbetty

          Both sides have professed willingness to negotiate for quite some time, but some preconditions have been a roadblock. A sticky issue is the DL would like to wear two hats in the negotiation while claiming not to, and the Chinese are looking for a more clear statement of role beforehand. This is not insolvable by negotiation, but the violent protests are more likely to set things back than forward. The violance sends everyone back to their corners and that's not good.

          Trust me on this: You do not settle problems in Asia by making anyone lose face and forcing hands, you take time to build relationships and negotiate, where much is possible. If one side looses face, both do and the show stops. Keep things cordial, and time = opportunity.

          Example: 3 years of the 6 party talks with the DPRK have produced more progress than 5 years of war in Iraq. No?

          When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

          by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:47:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  true, but (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            xgz, beijingbetty

            maybe the rapid approach of the olympics will speed things up.
            Most important now in China(as I see it) is the Win/Win philosophy of the current government.

            If the DL can give up on the zone of peace, maybe Hu can allow his return to Tibet as a "religious" leader.

            China wins on national security.
            The DL wins for religious freedom (not to mention several millions more Chinese pilgrims)

            What would Buddha do?

            Nap time now.  Be back later

            Tellin' you all the Zomby troof