Daily Kos

Myths about torture by the Bush administration

Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:43:14 AM PDT

Recent revelations that torture was approved, applauded, and enjoyed by senior Bush administration officials have caused quite a stir. Bush now freely admits that he "approved" of the CIA torturing a few "high value" terrorism suspects in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. All those assertions that the United States does not torture were knowingly false. While lying to Congress, the American people, and the world community might get another president in trouble, even impeached, war crimes appear to be much more acceptable in post-9/11 America. The mea culpa simply forces the administration and its supporters to create a new mythology of torture.

Myth 1: We only tortured a few "high value" terrorism suspects.

The media has myopically focused on the abuse of three prisoners - Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Sheik Mohammad, and Ramzi bin al-Shibh. Since these three men have been presented to the American people as high level members of al Qaeda and involved in the 9/11 plot, they provide a more palatable target for torture.  As long as attention remains focused on these three figures, Americans can be seduced into believing the following story line.  Our government only used torture as a last resort on three captured al Qaeda operatives responsible for the 9/11 attacks to prevent future attacks. Even if you are squeamish about torture or understand that it is a violation of international law, you can take some comfort that our government was extremely reluctant to use "enhanced interrogation" techniques, making exceptions for the worst of the worst during a national emergency.

The myopia is understandable. The Bush administration and the CIA have fostered the misperception.  For example, when Michael Hayden finally admitted to Congress that terrorism suspects were waterboarded, it presented as a slam dunk. Here is how the BBC reported the event:

The CIA has for the first time publicly admitted using the controversial method of "waterboarding" on terror suspects.

CIA head Michael Hayden told Congress it had only been used on three people, and not for the past five years.

To bolster the association in the feeble minds of the inattentive, all public statements from the Bush administration have been careful to link any discussion of torture (enhanced interrogation techniques if you prefer) to Satan's brother-in-law, Khalid Sheik Mohammad (the cool kids like to call him KSM). I dare you to find a discussion of waterboarding or other form of torture paid for by your tax dollars that does not mention KSM. Here is the obligatory KSM sighting in the BBC report on Hayden's testimony.

He said the technique had been used on high-profile al-Qaeda detainees including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Kuwaiti-born Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is accused of masterminding the 11 September attacks on the United States.

See?  We only tortured the 9/11 mastermind.  Conservatives love to regurgitate this frame.  It even filters down to the lower echelons of the wingnut world web.

The problem, of course, is that it is not true.  In 2005, even the Wall Street Journal was willing to print that "11 of 12 captured al Qaeda kingpins who have talked only did so after being waterboarded."  If you count torture outsourced to other countries, the Bush Inquisition has been remarkably busy.

“The Bush administration claims that it has not transferred people to foreign custody for abusive interrogation,” said Joanne Mariner, terrorism and counterterrorism director at Human Rights Watch. “But we’ve documented more than a dozen cases in which prisoners were sent to Jordan for torture.”

...

The exact number of people that the United States has subjected to rendition abroad is not known. CIA Director Michael Hayden suggested in a September 7, 2007 speech before the Council on Foreign Relations that far fewer than 100 people – “mid-range two figures” – had been rendered abroad since the September 11, 2001 attacks.

Source

No one knows the exact number of people we have tortured, but it is many more that the three original al Qaeda "kingpins" and we are still going strong. Torture is illegal no matter how many times you engage in it.

Myth 2: We have gotten valuable information from torture.

Here is the sum total of all the fabulous "intelligence" we gleaned from torture. Zubaydah gave up his two buddies.

The CIA has confirmed Zubaydah was one of three al Qaeda suspects subjected to waterboarding. After he was waterboarded, officials say Zubaydah gave up valuable information that led to the capture of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammad and fellow 9/11 plotter Ramzi bin al-Shibh.

Source

But what about that evil genius KSM? He must have provided enough actionable intelligence to round up all the al Qaeda leadership and win the first major battle in the "war on terror." Not quite. KSM was impressive in his ability to do the backstroke and breaststroke during the water torture sessions at Spa Americana, but gave us very little more than a hummus recipe or two.

Bush supporters are quick to say that the use of torture is one of the reasons we have not been attacked again, by faith assuming that torture gave us information to thwart subsequent attacks.  The fallacy in the argument is that there is not one shred of evidence that we uncovered any planned attacks with torture.  If such evidence actually existed, it would have been leaked to bolster public support.  These men are not being tried in a US court of law under our legal standards of jurisprudence, so disclosure is not an issue.  The three al Qaeda stooges have been in custody so long that any actionable intelligence has long outlived any need for secrecy.  The office of the Vice President has already shown its willingness to leak classified information and jeopardize CIA operations and operatives, so obviously that is not a consideration.  All we got from torture was confessions of complicity that we intend to use in the military tribunal "trials" to convict and punish them.

Humane treatment is the only way to get cooperation.  Torture never works.  

Myth 3: Our harsh interrogation methods are not torture..

This farcical idea comes from none other than Steven Bradbury, the acting head of the Office of Legal Counsel at the Department of Justice. On February 14, 2008, Bradbury testified before the House Judiciary Committee (HJC) that we practice a kinder and gentler form of waterboarding. He explicitly stated our methods of waterboarding do not violate US and international laws.  Here is what makes American waterboarding merely unpleasant rather than a war crime:

Waterboarding as practiced by the CIA bears “no resemblance” to what torturers in time past have done. “There’s been a lot of discussion in the public about historical uses of waterboarding,” Bradbury says. The “only thing in common is the use of water.” Spanish and Japanese water torture techniques “involved the forced consumption of a mass amount of water.” When asked if he is aware of any “modern use” of waterboarding that involves the “lungs filling with water,” Bradbury says he is not. Bradbury says that the Japanese forced the ingestion of so much water that it was “beyond the capacity of the victim’s stomach.” Weight or pressure was then applied by standing or jumping on the stomach of the victim, sometimes leading to “blood coming of the victim’s mouth.” The Spanish Inquisition would use the technique to the point of “agony or death.” The CIA does not do that, Bradbury says. “Strict time limits” are involved—presumably governing the length of time that interrogators can induce the sensation of drowning. Additionally, “safeguards” and “restrictions” make waterboarding a much more controlled procedure. Together, waterboarding as practiced by the CIA is not torture. However, Bradbury admits that recent Supreme Court decisions have changed the OLC’s analysis, and says that in 2006 the CIA stopped using waterboarding.

Source

So as long as we do not let the victim swallow or aspirate too much water, apply weight or pressure to their gut, or allow the festivities to go on too long, we can practice waterboarding legally and in good conscience. Since Bradbury graduated from a prestigious law school instead of the Regent or Liberty clown colleges, this is not ignorance, but rather studious deception. Here is video of Bradbury's testimony before the HJC.

Steven Bradbury is not simply guilty of spinning waterboarding as harmless, he is responsible for providing the legal cover for the Bush administration's torture policies along with John Yoo and Alberto Gonzales.  Bradbury still works for the DoJ and has been nominated to be Assistant Attorney General as head of the Office of Legal Counsel.

Myth 4: There is nothing you can do to stop torture.

The Bush administration can no longer keep its torture policy secret so it is trying to increase the acceptability of torture with the American people.  Although Congress managed to pass a bill to prohibit the US military from engaging in acts that violate the Geneva Conventions, Bush has vetoed a bill that would hold the CIA to the same standard. Exemptions for the CIA means that America will continue to torture.  Here are few ways you can help put a stop to torture.

  1. Help build awareness.

Keep the issue alive with visibility.  The media largely ignored the latest revelations in the ABC News reports. Few big market newspapers covered the story.  The Washington Post had one small story on page 3.  All of the cable news covered "bitter-gate" in excruciating detail but none covered direct involvement in torture by senior members of the Bush administration.  It was swept under the rug in America, but China was paying attention.

  1. Help prevent the confirmation of Steven Bradbury to become Assistant Attorney General.

Letter Opposing the Nomination of Steven Bradbury to Be Assistant Attorney General

March 26, 2008  

The Honorable Patrick J. Leahy  
Chairman, Senate Judiciary Committee  
433 Russell Senate Office Building  
Washington, DC 20510-4502  

The Honorable Arlen Specter  
Ranking Member, Senate Judiciary Committee  
711 Hart Senate Office Building  
Washington, DC 20510-3802

Dear Chairman Leahy and Ranking Member Specter:  

We are writing to urge you to oppose the nomination of Steven Bradbury to be Assistant Attorney General of the Department of Justice’s Office of Legal Counsel (OLC). While the undersigned groups rarely take positions on nominations, we believe that Bradbury’s role in authorizing torture makes this an extraordinary case.  

As you know, Bradbury has been effective head of OLC since June 2005. The OLC is entrusted with providing the president and other executive branch agencies with legal advice that is an accurate and honest appraisal of applicable law, even if it places constraints on the policies of the executive. Bradbury’s approval of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading techniques to interrogate detainees defies applicable law and precedent. It is an affront to fundamental American values and has done enormous damage to America’s authority and reputation in the world.  

Soon after joining OLC, Bradbury is believed to have signed off on still-secret OLC legal opinions authorizing the use of “waterboarding” in combination with other abusive interrogation techniques, such as head-slapping, and extended exposure to cold. James Comey, then deputy attorney general, reportedly told his colleagues that they would be “ashamed” when the opinion became public.  

Many of the interrogation techniques Bradbury reportedly approved have been prosecuted by US military and civilian courts as torture over the past 100 years. As recently as 1983, the Justice Department prosecuted a Texas sheriff for subjecting prisoners to “water torture” in an attempt to coerce confessions. Bradbury apparently ignored these precedents. In so doing, he placed in legal jeopardy everyone from the president of the United States to CIA interrogators in the field who trust the Justice Department to provide responsible legal guidance.  

In late 2005, as the McCain amendment prohibiting cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment was working its way through Congress, Bradbury is believed to have signed off on another legal memo which concluded that none of the interrogation techniques already authorized would violate the amendment, despite the clear contrary intent of the Congress.  

Last month, the Justice Department’s Office of Professional Responsibility announced that it was investigating whether those who gave legal approval to waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques violated the department’s professional standards.  

Still, Bradbury continues to offer a legal justification for the use of waterboarding. Testifying before the House Judiciary Committee in February 2008, he argued that waterboarding, as has been used by the US government, was not torture. He explained that this was because US interrogators did not allow “mass amounts” of water to enter the lungs of the victims, nor did they jump on the victims’ distended bellies, as was done during the Spanish Inquisition, and by Japanese soldiers prosecuted by the United States after World War II.  

This is the kind of legal analysis one would expect from a defense counsel trying to keep his client out of prison, rather than an objective analyst of the law. But however you parse it, waterboarding is torture.  

Bradbury’s public testimony sends a profoundly dangerous message to potential adversaries of the United States about the kind of treatment the US government would consider acceptable if inflicted on Americans in custody. Imagine if North Korea captured an American soldier and said to the United States, “Don’t worry. We only used the good waterboarding on the American in our custody. We made sure that his stomach never became distended, and we didn’t jump on it. We just made sure he thought he was going to suffocate, but stopped after he went into terrible hysterics.” This is precisely what Bradbury suggests would be acceptable.  

The United States needs someone to head the Office of Legal Counsel who can maintain the highest legal standards and provide the president a reliable interpretation of what the law is -- rather than what the president wants the law to be. Steven Bradbury has proven unable to do so, and we urge you to oppose his nomination.  

Sincerely,  

Kenneth Roth  
Executive Director  
Human Rights Watch

Source

  1. Support the ACLU effort to have a special prosecutor appointed by Congress.

ACLU's Top 10 Reasons To Appoint a Special Prosecutor

  1. Congress and the Agencies Have Failed in Holding Torture Perpetrators Accountable
  1. Further Delay in Criminal Investigations Could Put Some Crimes Outside the Statues of Limitations
  1. Military Prosecutors Have Not Gone Up the Chain of Command
  1. The Justice Department Has Failed to Bring Any Indictments Based on 20 CIA and DOD Referrals of Possible Crimes by Civilians
  1. The Justice Department Wrote the Legal Opinions Authorizing Torture
  1. The Past Head of the Criminal Division Reportedly Advised on Interrogation Practices, Possibly Including the Interrogation of Abu Zubaydah
  1. The Current Head of the Criminal Division Was in Meetings on Interrogations
  1. Attorney General Mukasey Still Refuses to Say Whether Waterboarding and Other Forms of Torture Are Illegal
  1. Attempts to Shield Government Officials from Criminal Prosecution Were Pursued by the White House, Including by the President and Vice President
  1. There Is Credible Evidence of Numerous Federal Crimes
  1. Help Amnesty International stop renditions and illegal detentions.

Tags: torture, waterboarding, Rescued, war crimes, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Steven Bradbury, John Yoo, Alberto Gonzales (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 25 comments

  •  Tips, comments, etc... (28+ / 0-)

    Thanks for reading.  We torture.  We must stop.

    Photobucket

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by DWG on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:45:15 AM PDT

    •  Bravo for your efforts to keep (13+ / 0-)

      this front and center. If I may, I'd like to add a list of members who are on the Senate Intelligence Committee,, as my rep Saxby Chambliss recently wrote:

      One of the key tools in the Global War on Terror has been the information we have gleaned from the terrorists themselves.  Detainees who have been in the inner circle of al- Qa'ida  and occupy some of the most important positions in al- Qa'ida  have information that cannot be obtained from any other source. Detainees have confirmed that al- Qa'ida continues to work on operations against the U.S. and its allies.  

      In the past, the CIA was authorized to use waterboarding as an enhanced interrogation technique under specific circumstances and with specific approval. Out of the 20,000 plus detainees in the custody of the U.S. Government, the CIA has held less than a hundred detainees throughout the history of its program. Of these, only three high value detainees- Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, Abu Zubaydah , and Abd al- Rahim al- Nashiri were subjected to waterboarding .  This was under circumstances where the detainees held timely and critical knowledge about al- Qa'ida's operational plans to attack America and kill our citizens.   The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, of which I am a member, has thoroughly reviewed this program's history, continues to monitor the CIA's interrogation methods and has found it both legal and effective.  

      Putting some pressure on the Committee members (about 1/3 of whom are Dems) might be meaningful too.

      Searching for corrupt, lobbyist loving John McCain?

      by Lisa Lockwood on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:57:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent Diary -- informative, activist (10+ / 0-)

    without being polemical, on a topic which, more often than not, promotes polemics.  Great job!

    John McCain - Practicing the old style of politics for the past 72 years!

    by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:01:06 AM PDT

  •  Outstanding diary, DWG (12+ / 0-)

    It's important to emphasize that Gitmo is if anything the least horrific of the prisons where Bush & co. have been torturing people, or having them tortured by foreign governments.

    We also need to keep pointing out that "physical" abuse is no worse than the psychological regimen of torture that the US has been using to wear down the minds of prisoners. It's more insidious because it is, by design, nearly invisible.

    •  And the worst crime of all (12+ / 0-)

      The vast majority of people in our custody were delivered for ransom or revenge rather than being a part of a terrorist organization.  It is wrong to physically or psychologically mistreat those that may have been part of a terrorist organization.  It is downright evil to mistreat the completely innocent.  

      The ABC News story contained a description of a Yemeni man caught up in a raid of an arms market in Fallujah in 2004.  He was tortured in Abu Ghraib, transferred to Afghanistan where he was tortured further, and then transferred to Yemen where was tortured yet again.  After 32 months, he was released in Yemen physically and psychologically scarred.  It is a disgrace.

      Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by DWG on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:15:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We only tortured a little bit... (12+ / 0-)

    sorta like being slightly pregnant.

    Thanks for this diary DWG.  We have to stop these Nazis before they drag us all into the cesspool with them.

    "The truth shall set you free - but first it'll piss you off." Gloria Steinem

    Iraq Moratorium

    by One Pissed Off Liberal on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:08:03 AM PDT

  •  Excellent. Supporting the ACLU petition is (10+ / 0-)

    critical.

    BTW, while it is beside the point, it is important to mention that Bradbury's description of water torture used by the Japanese is a lie. We prosecuted Japanese for doing exactly what we did. Here are some descriptions of the techniques they used.

  •  bookmarked (5+ / 0-)

    I'm so glad this diary was rescued! thank you, DWG. very informative and well-written post.

  •  In My Humble Opinion (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ckntfld, Spoc42, Temmoku, DWG, Lujane

    all those in the gov't , or who work for gov't ,who claim this is not torture should volunteer to have it done to them, once should be enough.
    then we allow them to  tell us how it's not torture.

    •  even that's not enough (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Spoc42, kurt, DWG

      As it has been pointed out, there is no way to replicate the mental state of a person being held indefinitely and being tortured against his desire by any kind of "volunteer" who agrees to be "treated roughly".  The volunteer knows his treatment will always be in an environment where he has some kind of control.  

      Don't drink and blog. Think of the children.

      by RickD on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:43:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your complicating the argument with logic (0+ / 0-)

      people who think what we have done is not torture are not implying logic or any kind of rational thought, and they don't use it in their reasoing.

      These are the same people who think they are going to heaven when they die - do you think an honest discussion of what they have allowed to happen in their name is ever going to take place while they are still alive?

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:34:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Congress needs to appoint a Special Prosecutor (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ckntfld, ER Doc, kurt, Lujane, magicsister

    since this government is utterly incapable of investigating itself. Like all corrupt entities, it could never find fault with itself. Even when the fault is obvious.

    All I want is....Impeachment followed by Imprisonment!

    by Temmoku on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:30:19 PM PDT

    •  Have you figured out why we haven't? ? ? (0+ / 0-)

      Think of Salem Massachusetts when they used to burn witches at the stake - once the witch was charred and black, did all the things that they were convinced the witch had done stop happening? did the rains come and the crops stop failing?

      No, because the witch was never responsible for the things she was burned for. But that never stopped the  people from feeling like they had made the world a better place by setting her on fire.

      They got to gain the satisfaction of thinking they had destroyed evil without there ever actually having been any evil to suffer from.

      Now - fast forward to presidential impeachments.

      The forces that aligned to impeach Bill Clinton knew that they could rally support and shout from the rooftops that "The Evil Lying President has been impeached! The forces of Good have triumphed" - - all the while, the things that Bill Clinton lied about had utterly no consequence to the nation as whole.

      But when it comes to impeaching George W. Bush, the country at large gets cold feet and cannot admit that the president has done horrible things in our name. Why? Because those horrible things are real, and in the end, if we did not elect the president in 2000 or some say in 2004, we certainly did not protest strongly enough to remove him from office.

      "In regard to cruelties committed in the name of a free society, some are guilty but all are responsible"
      Abraham Joshua Heschel

      There is not enough will in this country to impeach Bush because we can't admit to ourselves how much of what has happened we are ultimately responsible for by not stopping him already.

      It's a sad statement about the whole country.

      George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

      by snafubar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:32:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We could impeach Bradbury, (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, kurt, Lujane, magicsister

    with more ease than Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Yoo/Bybee.  He is an appointed official currently in office.  It would set the table for other impeachments, and serve as an example of what happens to those who torture.

    "You don't make peace with friends. You make it with very unsavory enemies." -Yitzhak Rabin

    by sailmaker on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:13:18 PM PDT

  •  Myth of "stress position"? (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kurt, DWG, Lujane, magicsister

    I imagined this was just making someone uncomfortable, but I read in another diary this involves hanging people by their arms. Is that true?  If it is, we need to publicize it.

    •  Depends on what you mean by "uncomfortable" (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      daulton, DWG

      Some used to call it the Strappado

      -5.12, -5.23

      We are men of action; lies do not become us.

      by ER Doc on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:42:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is it funny or sick that Gonzales wanted to ramp (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        daulton, ER Doc

        up the prosecution of pornography sites that depicted Sadomasochism, while he was figuring out ways to make genuine torture legal?

        U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales recently announced his office will specifically target "bestiality, urination, defecation, as well as sadistic and masochistic behavior."Federal sentencing guidelines state any obscenity-related punishment should be "enhanced for sadomasochistic material."

        Recently (2005) the Department of Justice began recruiting new staff to pursue obscenity prosecutions and the FBI announced it was forming an anti-obscenity task force. (We can’t find enough people to translate Arabic terrorist messages, but we evidently can find enough people to investigate porn.)

        In an S&M scene, the torture is scripted, "organ failure" is not a concern, and the people who enjoy it are paid well enough that they do so of their own volition....

        That's illegal in the United States, because people get off on it, and the part of this country who still think Victorian age purity should be law don't mind that the very same Attorney General of the United States was actively arguing ways to subvert the Constitution of the United States so those who engaged in torture would have a legal way out of being prosecuted for it.

        I find that "perversely" ironic.

        _____________________________________

        For further reading about how pornography ranks as high as terrorism at the DOJ, read from the
        Wiki about how even after Gonzales resigned, this is still an open case:

        On October 23, 2007, the 6th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals ruled that the record keeping requirements were facially invalid ....However the US DoJ, under control by US Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey, has asked for, and was granted, an en banc review of of initial decision of the 6th Circuit Court in order to have the Court overturn its initial decision

        The 6th Circuit en banc review is currently unscheduled.

        ...in other words, all of the porn case prosecutions that were interrupted by the 6th Circuit court ruling can be held open indefinitely.

        The United States Department of Justice, fighting to keep you safe from terrorists and pornography, since we all know the dangers from each are obviously of equal danger to your health and well being.

        George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

        by snafubar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 11:06:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Myth 5) Torture produces intelligence (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kurt

    The recurring fallacy is that waterboarding, torture, stress positions, enhanced interrogation, whatever they name it, have been proven by our own interrogators to produce reliable intelligence.

    This is FALSE! Our own intelligence services, over decades of experience in interrogation, have proven torture does not produce reliable information.

    Yes, it produces lots of misinformation. But people who are being tortured literally say anything to stop the torture.

    John McCain was tortured in North Vietnam. His cellmate, Bud Day, was awarded the Medal of Honor for being tortured until he was crippled.  Both "broke" physically and mentally under torture. Over 100 Americans died from torture in North Vietnam.

    But here's the key none of the hundreds of Americans held and tortured revealed important secrets.

    While these were heroic men, they were not supermen. They did what anyone would do, they lied under torture. They made up names, falsified procedures, invented weapons, just to stop the torture. The North Vietnamese at one point held over 1,000 Americans, from lowly draftees to colonels with 4,000+ hours of airtime and senior command responsibility. But important secrets were never divulged.

    Why do some people think torture is effective? They've been watching too much 24.

    •  24 (0+ / 0-)

      I've never liked the program, even before I discovered that it condoned torture. In fact, I have wondered whether the torture has been shown here to make it more palatable to the sheeple. After all, if Jack Bauer can beat the information out of our enemies, trained interrogation experts should be getting huge amounts of information!

      The Prince of Peace has been usurped by the God of War.

      by Spoc42 on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:09:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't know what to think anyy\\[[]]\\\ (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DWG

    This is just to say Forgive us victory tastes delicious so sweet and so cold

    by Dave the Wave on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:29:42 AM PDT

  •  Damn: too funk to druck (0+ / 0-)

    This is just to say Forgive us victory tastes delicious so sweet and so cold

    by Dave the Wave on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:30:18 AM PDT

  •  Your point is well made; 21 comments a full day (0+ / 0-)

    later means that even at a progressive website like Daily Kos you can't find too many people that are willing to stomach the obvious:

    That the opportunity is gone for America to prove it is a country that is willing to hunt down and punish evil people who break the law.

    It is clear we have such people at the highest levels of our own government "over here", so we didn't even need to go "over there" to find them, nor did doing so keep them away from us.

    Since it is obvious as long as those people begin each sentence with "after 9/11" they could have tortured Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Roy Rogers (he had a gun, don't you know) and they would not only be forgiven, but probably re-elected.

    The country we learned about in school is long gone, whether it ever comes back is in doubt.

    It's not looking good.

    This is also why Habeas Corpus is now a myth - because people like my neighbor know we don't need Habeas Corpus because we always know who the "evil" people are. When I become enraged and indignant about Guantanamo and the CIA renditions, my neighbor told me that "those people" are so evil that they don't deserve such rights.

    "But how do you know we only tortured "those people"

    "They were picked up on the battlefield"

    It's no secret that Jose Padilla was picked up at Chigago O'Hare Airport, so the 'battlefield' is anywhere the US Government wants it to be, including your front porch. What is worse is that even those who were "picked up" on said battlefield were actually turned in through the success of our own cash bounties; most of the people who have been cycled through our interrogation mills were delivered to us by their neighbors for the cash.  If we passed out $25,000 to American citizens to deliver the terrorists to the government you would see the same behavior here - people would sell out their own mother for blood money.

    But my neighbor knows that despite the reality of bad cops who arrest and interrogate the wrong people even here in the US, somehow the US military, amidst all the roadside bombs and the utter futility of the battle they fight there for a country that isn't even their own, they are going to be so careful that they will always know who the "right people" are.

    I'm saddened that there are so few comments to this diary - it should be front page for a week and it should be it's own discussion in this country for a month before we went to war, and surely for the five years since we have. But we all know that high prices at the grocery store and the gas pump and the foreclosure of your house and the loss of your job are going to push the horrors of the war right off the front page...then page 2, page 3, page 4....

    Great diary. Sick and tragic reality that it is about time we came to grips with as a country.

    George Orwell is banging on the lid of his coffin and screaming, "1984 was a cautionary tale, you dolts, not a motivational speech!"

    by snafubar on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 09:10:16 AM PDT

Permalink | 25 comments