Daily Kos

We Are Guilty of ABC's Crime

Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:45:09 AM PDT

There's no question that what ABC did last night at its "debate" was inexcusable.

ABC focused on ridiculous "gotcha" questions instead of delving into real policy.

ABC ignored the bevy of important issues that lie before us today: energy and food shortages, FISA, the war, the sub-prime debacle, healthcare. The list goes on and on.

But the question I would pose: are the major sites in the blogosphere really doing much better?

Like many people, I've gone from being a fairly active participant at Dailykos to being an occasional commentor. A great many people-- and no, not just Clinton supporters-- have left altogether.

Why?

Because this site is treating the primary just like ABC news does. Candidate diaries are, almost without exception, "gotcha" pieces that take one small comment and blow it out of proportion, or that use one mis-step by a candidate (here, it's usually Clinton. On MyDD, it's usually Obama), and turn it into the prism through which we view the entire Democratic primary.

What ABC did last night is shameful. But so is a lot of what's going on here.

Is it the same? Of course not. But I hope-- I really hope-- this comparison wakes a few people up to why a lot of us have become disenchanted with Dailykos.

I will close by linking an excellent piece by Nicholas Kristoff in today's New York Times that deals with a possible root cause of this phenomenon. Read it. Consider his words. Reflect, and ask yourself if you've begun to fall prey to this same mentality.

Kristoff's Column

I'd be doing the column injustice to try to sum it up in a couple of blockquotes, but here are a couple that will at least give you a taste of his argument:

Another challenge is the biased way in which we gather information. We seek out information that reinforces our prejudices. One study presented listeners with static-filled recordings of speeches that they believed they were judging on persuasive power. Listeners could push a button to tweak the signal, reducing the static to make it easier to understand. When smokers heard a speech connecting tobacco with cancer, they didn’t try to improve the clarity to hear it more easily. But they pushed the button to get a clearer version of a speech saying that there was no link between smoking and cancer. Nonsmokers were the exact opposite.

It's difficult, when you're a true believer in one of the candidates, to gather information in an objective manner. Further:

Psychologists showed a film clip of the football game to groups of students at each college and asked them to act as unbiased referees and note every instance of cheating. The results were striking. Each group, watching the same clip, was convinced that the other side had cheated worse — and this was not deliberate bias or just for show.

"Their eyes were taking in the same game, but their brains seemed to be processing the events in two distinct ways," Farhad Manjoo writes in his terrific new book, "True Enough: Learning to Live in a Post-Fact Society." It’s the best political book so far this year.

Your biases likely even affect how you process the (probably already biased) information that you do gather.

I know that the primaries are important. I understand that people are passionate about their candidates. But let's prove that we're better than the mainstream media. Let's move away from the ridiculous "gotcha" moments that they employ. Let's check ourselves and do what we can to avoid letting our biases twist and distort the facts.

And, damn it, let's talk about the issues. I so often come here these days and see not one single issues related diary on the rec list. And it makes me so incredibly sad.

Tags: Meta, Nicholas Kristoff, ABC News, 2008 Primaries (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 30 comments

  •  I imagine this will get more flames than tips (15+ / 0-)

    but tip here, should you feel so inclined.

    "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

    by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:45:25 AM PDT

  •  you are right (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dedmonds, Owllwoman
  •  Only issue is credibility (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Shhs, allep10, David Kroning

    From what I've seen as a Kucinich supporter, the stated differences between Hillary and Obama on the issues differ mostly in punctuation.  My real issue that I know Hillary will say anything to get elected and who knows what she'd actually do in the Oval Office, while Obama is a breath of fresh air.  Now, Obama could end up being just another phoney politician, but I am willing to take that chance since the Hillary and McCain alternatives are both bad.

    Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
    Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

    by Caelian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:52:32 AM PDT

    •  So if there's no real difference on issues (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      zephron, Owllwoman

      why the criticism of ABC for not talking about issues last night?

      "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

      by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:00:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unfairness of questioning (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        allep10

        I wouldn't criticize ABC on that basis.  I think it was quite clear from the Texas debate that the differences on the issues are semantic.

        My chief criticism of last night's interrogation (calling it a debate is debatable) is the imbalance of attacks upon Obama versus Hillary.  Questioning him about his "bitter" comments is unfair unless you question Hillary about "screw 'em".  Questioning Obama about Rev. Wright is unfair unless you question Hillary about The Family.

        Like David Brooks, I think politicians should be made uncomfortable, but it must be done fairly.

        Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
        Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

        by Caelian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:13:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's not the raison d'etre of the lib blogosphere (0+ / 0-)

    Yes, we do some of it because we have to, but there's a lot more, you know, actual debate about substance rather than just cheerleading of utter b***s***.

  •  We can't get beyond the candidates... (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Shhs

    Until we have a nominee.

    And we won't have a nominee until Hillary Clinton steps aside.

    I cannot be anything but mystified by anyone who, in good conscience, supports Hillary Clinton at this point .

    She is part of what's wrong with politics in America.

  •  I appreciate the thought, (9+ / 0-)

    but this is taking up valuable space that could be used for the 367th diary about how the media hates Obama.

    •  And it's about to push my genius opus (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      burrow owl, dedmonds, BoiseBlue, allep10

      with my genius and unique title, "I'm Bitter" right off of the rec list. Well, I haven't written it yet but that's really beside the point. Because when I do, we all know that it would immediately zoom to the top of the charts because I have such a unique point of view to share that I will literally bring this blog to a standstill with my brilliance.

      Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

      by Pager on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:00:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I assure you (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pager, allep10

        this diary is in no danger of making the rec list.

        Your classic "I'm Bitter," however, is more-or-less destined for it, magnum opus that it will be.

        "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

        by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:03:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why, thank you. That's the spirit. (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          burrow owl, dedmonds, BoiseBlue, allep10

          And you all make sure you rec it up now, you hear? Even if it is a regurgitation of the last 847 diaries on the exact same subject.

          Because, damnit, I HAVE A UNIQUE POINT OF VIEW AND I DEMAND YOU ALL READ IT AND FUCKING LOVE IT...OR ELSE.

          Wait a minute. Why am I shouting?

          Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

          by Pager on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:09:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I look forward to it. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pager, allep10

        I think there needs to be more discussion about elitism, bitterness, and ABC. Who cares if the horse is dead? Just keep beating it, damn it!

        The vote is "Basic Democracy #1". YOU must preserve it. -edscan

        by BoiseBlue on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:03:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  wrong (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Shhs

    After seeing what happened last night, I'm starting to think we shouldn't be pulling for "objectivity and fairness" in the media, because the other side (in a sense larger than Obama Hillary or D/R)'s certainly not doing that.

    If anything, we need to be fighting harder and pulling more hairs in the media - we're only going to get fairness if we aim for bias.

    (-4.73,-5.05) - if [TM] covered Einstiens paper on relatively... the title would have been, "Einstein calls Newton a Bitch! Oh Snap!" -kingfishstew

    by amnesiaproletariat on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:54:34 AM PDT

    •  Wasn't that (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Owllwoman

      the kind of thought that went into Fox News? There was a perception among conservative true believers that the mainstream media was biased, so they decided to out-bias them?

      No thanks.

      "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

      by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:56:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  what you'll get (0+ / 0-)

      isn't better positioning for your candidate, but a further cheapening of the discourse. we'll talk even LESS about issues and MORE about distractions. that doesn't hurt every candidate equally; it hurts the candidate who wants to talk about issues.

      cough.... Barack Obama.......

      I think what you're calling for is what's been done the last few years and it's gotten us to the point we're at now.

  •  Rec'd. Great post. (4+ / 0-)

    And one that deserves to be on the rec list. We could learn a lot from this diary.  We only see what we want to see.  When I watch these debates, I try to think how our candidates words sound to Joe America, and leave my thoughts out of it. In reality it is not how these two play to me, but to the citizens of this Country.  I am already on board.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:02:42 AM PDT

  •  The only reason people are focusing on "gotcha" (0+ / 0-)

    is because Hillary's "SCREW EM" gotcha moment should now be blowing up.

    This diary is just part of the propaganda effort to keep that from happening.

    It's not about ending the "gotcha" game.

    It's about making sure it's played evenly, and not letting the media carry water for McCain and Hillary.

    There will always be "gotcha" moments, because this is politics and a candidate's history matters.

    But banning all of what you call "gotcha" issues from here on out... well, that only benefits one person:

    Hillary Clinton.

    And I suspect you know it.

    •  Wow. Just wow. (0+ / 0-)

      Yes, it's all part of a sekrit plot to aid HRC. Despite the fact that I (a) want Obama to be our nominee at this point (I was an Edwards supporter, back in the day) and (b) actually believe him to have the nomination wrapped up.

      You see, this is pretty much an example of precisely the type of reasoning Kristoff was criticizing.

      "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

      by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:13:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, you were an Edwards supporter? (0+ / 0-)

        Seeing as how he was only in this thing to elect Hillary... I'm pretty sure you need to start practicing a lot more skepticism.

        If he were 1/4th the man he claimed to be, he'd have already come out and told Hillary to stop using GOP talking points.

        But he's not and never was.

        It was a lie. His supporters were used.

        Fortunately it never substantially split the progressive vote like it was designed to and Barack stayed in the game.

        The only reason anyone in the media will call for "civility" now is to avoid destroying Clinton as she deserves to be destroyed for her "Screw em" comment.

        •  I just read some of your previous diaries (0+ / 0-)

          you're really a homophobic nutjob, ain't ya?

          "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

          by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 05:55:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Great post. Then, question:: (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dedmonds, two roads

    What are the underlying reasons for the need to gather one-sided information?  I would answer that the primary problem is that we are all swimming in a news environment where the responsibility for news gathering has been completely abandoned.  We talk about the "MSM" but there really is no such thing anymore:  there is only institutional players with more or less motivation and capacity to promote their points of view.  Since few of these institutional players share the values of the progressive community, most of us are stuck with relying on each other to fill the gap for balance against those with more power/influence/capacity to spread other points of view.

    This is not a trivial issue.  In other words, what you describe is a result of a deeply flawed media environment which has turned out to be focused not on information and communication, but on politics by other means. (To paraphrase Clausewitz sp?)

    •  Couldn't agree more (0+ / 0-)

      I had hoped that the blogosphere could serve as a tonic to that environment, but I'm increasingly convinced that this is just going to be another case of a vital new subculture being subsumed by the dominant culture.

      "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

      by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:15:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That depends on the relationship betw (0+ / 0-)

        the dominant culture and the subculture.  For instance, I think there is evidence on DKos today that the screams, howls, calls to action, pointed criticism, and outright rejection of the debate content and questions will have an effect on the mainstream media.  Add to that, Obama may have an effect precisely because his fresh charisma makes it difficult for his critique of the media to be dismissed--he does, after all, have millions of followers; probably more followers than some in the MSM have viewers.

        Leadership makes a difference.  Big time.  Organized opposition makes a difference.  Big time.  Alternatives make a difference. And never doubt that when these things are combined, things can change very quickly.

  •  Great effort, but for naught, I fear. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dedmonds


    With the rare exception, even when issues manage to make it into the discussion they are so filtered through various supporter's prisms that rational appraisal withers and dies on the vine.

    And then there are the issues which cannot be discussed at all. For instance, there was one aspect of what Senator Obama said in the 'bittergate' flap that bothered me tremendously, but the very act of attempting to broach it here is enough to inflame passions and call down the wrath of god.

    From what I can tell, the course of dialogue here has reached chapter 5 of Orwell's Animal Farm:

    Several of them would have protested if they could have found the right arguments. Even Boxer was vaguely troubled. He set his ears back, shook his forelock several times, and tried hard to marshal his thoughts; but in the end he could not think of anything to say. Some of the pigs themselves, however, were more articulate. Four young porkers in the front row uttered shrill squeals of disapproval, and all four of them sprang to their feet and began speaking at once. But suddenly the dogs sitting round Napoleon let out deep, menacing growls, and the pigs fell silent and sat down again. Then the sheep broke out into a tremendous bleating of ‘Four legs good, two legs bad!’ which went on for nearly a quarter of an hour and put an end to any chance of discussion.


    How long it will take to reach the 'four legs good, two legs better' stage is anyone's guess.

    The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. - H.L. Mencken

    by two roads on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:57:32 AM PDT

    •  Oh, I know it's a hopeless effort (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      two roads

      I suppose I'm just demonstrating the audacity of hope ;-)

      "I do not equate my oppression with the oppression of blacks and Latinos. You can't. It is not the same struggle, but it is one struggle." Bob Kohler

      by dedmonds on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:13:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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