Daily Kos

ALL the polls in PA are correct! [w/poll!]

Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:23:24 AM PDT

Chris "Tweety-bird" Matthews listened to that impeccable political oracle, his gut, and it told him 14%, the margin by which hillary wins in PA next week.  Survey USA, prior to Tweety's gut [which is distrusted by some, hated by others] also predicted a 14% margin.  Other pollsters predict a tighter race, from 6% [Quinniapac], 3% [Rasmussen], to +3% [PPP].

Kossacks parse these polls, dismissing some heralding others, in an effort to raise their hopes [PPP] or lower their expectations [SUSA], proving, like the old Billy Joel song, that so many of us vaccilate from sadness to euphoria, spending very little time in between the 2 extremes.

As someone who has studied polling and statistics, AND who has conducted professional polls on a massive scale, I will say right now:  it is quite possible that all of the PA polls [minus Tweety] are correct about the 4/22 primary, odd as that may seem.

First, a word on these 'snapshot' or periodic [interval] polls.  Campaigns generally employ expensive micro-market daily polls conducted by in-house pollsters.  What they are measuring is quite different than what Gallup, SUSA and Rasmussen are measuring.

These interval polls are statistical polaroids of a small piece of an electorate.  If PA voters were at a huge party, Obama voters wearing blue, hillary voters in red, and you needed to take a photo of them for the local newspaper, you'd either pan WAAAY back and capture no detail [just the number of how many there might be], or you'd select a subgroup of red and blue shirts, mix them in an assumed ratio, and shoot.  The larger the subgroup the more it reflects the actual whole, but the less detail you can  discern in the photo.  The expense comes in calculating who actually will vote--who belongs in the photo--and how you determine that, by speaking directly to the crowd or through a proxy [robocall], has a large effect on the results.

Interval polls say little about how the universe of participants is changing over time; pollsters and pundits make guesses about why a candidate rises or falls based on events such as debates, controversies, etc., or on how the public's opinion of a candidate is shaped as voters find out more about them: Obama, the greater unknown, is more susceptible to the ups and downs of this since voters believe they 'know' hillary much better.

That SUSA's results are so different than PPP is only surprising if you don't look at the sampling data.  SUSA is polling a universe of Democratic voters modeled on 2000 and 2004 data.  To the extent that the Obama/hillary contest is similar to those primaries, their predictions could be correct.  PPP is polling a universe of voters that may be possible given completely different circumstances--a snapshot where Obama supporters are fighting to get into the picture.

If SUSA is correct, and they might be, since PA is a more demographically static state than most others [people don't move very often, age cohorts are stable over time], then hillary should win by at least 10%.  On the other hand, if Obama's possible universe of voters [AA, youth, males, college-educated] is highly motivated and comes out in better-than historical margins, then he should end up within low single-digits of hillary on election day.

If the NCAA finals were on TV that night Obama would probably do poorly.  Conversely, if Jerry McGuire and Terms of Endearment were screening on election day in PA, I'd add 2 pts to Obama's totals.

The micro-market, daily tracking polls that the campaigns employ [the much-vaunted 'internals'] are 25MP digital cameras compared to the grainy, but inexpensive, polaroids  used by the public polling firms.  We rarely are permitted to glimpse them [and usually for dis-information purposes] because they reveal too much of the strategy a campaign employs to court a particular voting bloc.  I will simply say that while we Kossacks are in the dark about what will happen next tuesday, the 2 campaigns now know, within 3-4 points, who exactly will be voting next week.  HOW they will vote--the true undecideds--is harder to predict.

And that is why these people get the big money while you and I will vacillate between sadness and euphoria from now thru election day.

Poll

The final margin in PA:

9%38 votes
14%59 votes
18%75 votes
45%185 votes
4%20 votes
6%28 votes

| 405 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Barack Obama, hillary Clinton, polls, 2008 election (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 45 comments

  •  I stick to what I have said (6+ / 0-)

    all along. Clinton by 6-12%.  Clinton needs to win by at least 10% to call this a win.

    I'd give her at least 50/50 chance of doing so.  The only way that Obama keeps this under 5 is if her negative campaign and the debate nonsense backfires big time.  Possible, but unlikely.  I think the debate was a wash, between the stupid questions and Obama's poor showing.

    John McCain's Something for Everyone Plan: Military draft for youth, SS benefit cuts for elderly, Middle Class destruction, stock market plunge for wealthy.

    by IhateBush on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:27:43 AM PDT

    •  Very Good Chance of >10%. Media's Not Going to (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dirtdawg

      let up on Obama, they think they have him.

      It'll squelch his typical emotional surge, hold down turnout, and when that happens it favors Hillary.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:43:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Watching Hillary (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SherwoodB, geejay, Joe Beese

    Watching her stump in PA. Why does she always have these big men in suites stand behind her while she speaks as to give her some kind of validation?

    She is talking about taking care of military families. News for you, Hill: I lived in upstate NY when my husband was in Iraq. The economy sucks up there. Housing was short and families were living in hotels. Families had to pay high rent costs in town because the people in town knew that they could take advantage of the shortage. Guess what, I never saw you there.

    hmm. oh well.

    In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell

    by ElizabethAM on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:28:05 AM PDT

  •  Barf (0+ / 0-)

    sorry, she makes me ill...

    In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell

    by ElizabethAM on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:29:03 AM PDT

  •  please (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shunpike, ElizabethAM, Joe Beese

    please , you cant get good samples anymore.  This isnt 1950 where people answer their phones.  Only a small demogrpahic answer landline calls from weird numbers.  Many others simply sreen all calls, Others only really us cell phons.  ON the street, who the hell talks to weid people wih clipboards, tlk aout a small niche demo

    POLLING is DEAD until they can figure out a new sample data collection system.

    If these samples were used in a graduate statistic course, you would proab not pass. +-4% my ass

  •  that's why (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    remingtonsteele

    there's the saying 'there's lies, damn lies and then statisitcs'

    As someone that deals daily with statistics and thier use I can understand what you're talking about.

    But it seems like most people aren't aware that statistics can first be used wrong and second aren't infailable.

  •  My gut says 6% Clinton. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rich Santoro, ElizabethAM

    For what that's worth.

    John McCain - Hope Less!

    by kitebro on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:31:33 AM PDT

    •  If true (1+ / 0-)

      Clinton has "lost" PA and Obama is the nominee.  My view has been 6-12% for Clinton from the beginning.

      John McCain's Something for Everyone Plan: Military draft for youth, SS benefit cuts for elderly, Middle Class destruction, stock market plunge for wealthy.

      by IhateBush on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:35:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tweety and SUSA (0+ / 0-)

    probably have the scoop on the margin Rendell's board of elections feels they can provide. I'd have to place my bet on Rendell. He controls the voting machines.

    •  no he doesn't (0+ / 0-)

      that's just silly as far as the vast majority of the state goes.
      He might have people that control some voting machines in Philly, but they don't do that great of a job.
      Rendell is a jovial jerk, but I don't think he would cheat.

    •  do you have evidence (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Joe Beese

      or are you just venting, because SUSA has her by such a large margin?

      for the record, I'm hoping Obama pulls off an upset (anywhere from -6% to +3%) but can we please stop looking for allegations of voter fraud when our candidates don't beat expectations?

  •  Very interesting read. n/t (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geejay

    truth, kindness, endurance, Obama '08

    by CupofTea on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:38:22 AM PDT

  •  And There's Also MOE (0+ / 0-)

    With a 4 point MOE, any result, when considering just the margin between candidates, there is a 16-point potential range of results. That is, if a poll with a 4 point MOE shows two candidates tied at 45% each, then actually either one could be ahead by as much as 8 points, meaning there is a 16-point range of possible results.

    So both PPP (with a 3 pt margin between candidates) and SUSA (with a 14 pt MOE) could be correct within the MOE, with the actual margin falling between 6 points (the lowest it could be and still be within SUSA's MOE)and 11 points (the highest it could be and still be within PPP's MOE).

  •  impossible to tell (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    geejay

    If young voters show up in droves Obama could actually win. I think Hillary is not counting on a big win because now they are saying a one vote victory is huge.

  •  I think indifference (0+ / 0-)

    needs to be a poll option.  Obama probably won't win.  Hillary probably won't win by >15%.  So who cares?  The big picture doesn't change.

  •  She'll win PA (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    unterhausen, trippinsf, Joe Beese

    but she's already lost the nomination, so who give a shit.

    McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist

    by sgilman on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:40:55 AM PDT

  •  Zacapoet, what information do you have (0+ / 0-)

    regarding the lack of polling for voters that only have cell phones?  I feel like this demographic would tend to back Obama.  Have you seen anything that points one way or another on this growing demo?

    GObama!

    After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music. - Aldous Huxley

    by Throwing Stones on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:41:43 AM PDT

    •  cell phones: (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Throwing Stones

      Zogby supposedly 'controls' for cell phones by some undefined exponent, but I have no idea of their accuracy.  SUSA's number for 18-29 yr olds was LOW! [4%], and perhaps that is due to their cell phone use.

      ..to be healed/the broken thing must come apart/then be rejoined.

      by Zacapoet on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:58:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  turnout will be huge factor, there is also (3+ / 0-)

    lots of undecideds, which have broken for Hillary before, which could bring her back to double digits, but if the dont, Obama will likely keep it in single digits, effectively Killing her campaign for good, IMO

    •  I gotta agree (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      True North, rigso, Joe Beese

      I think the turnout for Hillary will be poor. Between the debate backlash and the emerging evidence that Clinton cannot win, the turnout will be poor and Obama will beat expectations. Hillary will drop out.

      "Those that know, don't say, those that say, don't know"... Tao te ching... Then why am I posting a comment?

      by zenmasterjack on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:48:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Matthews has "inside" info (0+ / 0-)

    He says he's close to the insiders in PA, eddie rendell and local county bosses.  He acted last night like he had inside info that this will be a Hillary blow-out by 250,000 to 300,000 votes. He says the undecided are really hillary votes. Do you think the Pa party bosses have been feeding him insider info?

  •  I picked Obama by 2 (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    True North

    Based on nothing more than wetting a finger and holding it in the air. But I'm sensing an upset - and I'm usually the most pessimistic person any of my acquaintances know.

    A lot of people watched that debate. Presumably the percentage was particularly large in Pennsylvania. And I expect many of them had the same reaction as the 16,000+ outraged commenters on the ABC web site.

    The need for change is so overwhelming now. And even those people who dislike Obama can't believe any more that a vote for Hillary is a vote for change. They're likely to stay home.

    Even if Obama accomplishes nothing else, he's given me courage to hope. I think we're going to win PA. I think Hillary is going to withdraw in the following few days. And I think we're going to beat McCain.

    We're going to have one day next January to throw a hell of a party. And if Hillary's people want to put on a hat and join in, I'll fill their cup for them.

    Then we've got one shitload of a mess to clean up.

    "Some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok." - Barack Obama

    by Joe Beese on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:51:22 AM PDT

  •  As far as narrative goes.... (0+ / 0-)

    Remember, it's going to start out looking REALLY good for Clinton and it won't be until Wednesday morning when we know exactly how close it is.  Obama's biggest numbers are going to come from the big urban centers.  This could really effect how the (small-brained) MSM portrays things Tuesday night:  "It's looking like a big win for Clinton...."

    Also, watch to see if any of the networks have figured out that the melodramatic "Projection" BS has no relevance in this race.  Instead, why don't they talk to us about the numbers and the delegates?  Get Poblano up in there.  

  •  Barack by a small margin (0+ / 0-)

    This is my own internal poll...LOL

    I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by valadon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:14:33 AM PDT

  •  on the other hand, if Obama is getting (0+ / 0-)

    more of the rural votes beating expectations, ....:)

    I'm from Illinois but I want to be insignificant like everybody else.

    by FORUS50 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:16:40 AM PDT

  •  Obama Wins PA! (0+ / 0-)

    I always go for the optomistic take.

    This is based on only one thing:

    YES

    WE

    CAN!

  •  Thinking back... (0+ / 0-)

    if you remember, Mayor Street (the bozo replaced by the Clinton-supporting, but otherwise infinitely superior Mayor Nutter) of Philadelphia was up for reelection against a fairly tough opponent when the story broke that the FBI was bugging his office. While nothing was ever proven against Street, he's the kind of guy where if something WERE proven, nobody would really be surprised. Nonetheless, just the reporting of the bug, I think, led to a more convincing than expected victory for Street. I believe that people who weren't excited about him, per se, found a reason to come out and vote.

    I think this will happen for Obama in Philadelphia. I can't really speak for the rest of the state. And this is good--because up through last week, I felt like the energy level just wasn't as high as it should have been. Things felt pretty static. This sort of thing could whip up voters on Obama's behalf "just" because it feels like he's being treated unfairly. It worked for a questionable character like Mayor Street--it could work on a more worthy recipient as well.

    Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

    by JMS on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:53:33 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for the explanation.. (0+ / 0-)

    I've always wondered how Polls worked.

    Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom from Consequences

    by Ambboogie on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:00:01 AM PDT

  •  Obama Has A Shot (0+ / 0-)

    Having just spent two days volunteering for the campaign in PA, I was impressed by the team on the ground and the volunteers. I was at the local office in Montgomery county the morning after the debate debacle. There was a steady stream of people driving by looking for yard signs, coming to volunteer to make phone calls and the like. Remember, this isn't just about Obama, it's about US! Contact everyone you know in PA and get them out there to vote! I'll be back there on Monday to help with GOTV.
    Yes we WILL!

    We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein

    by BigVegan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:09:20 PM PDT

Permalink | 45 comments