Daily Kos

NYT columnists lets Obama have it w/ both barrels

Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:26:57 AM PDT

Today's NYT op-ed page is, I suspect, being read w/ satisfaction in Clinton HQ.  On the left-hand column of the print edition, Brooks has clearly fallen out of love w/ Obama.  In the right-hand corner, Krugman launches his latest in a series of assaults  .

The NYT op-ed pages haven't exactly been kind to the Dem front-runner this week.  On Monday, Kristol, predictably, let loose on Obama.  On Tuesday, Brooks launched his first attack of this week. On Wednesday, MoDo let the Illinoisan have it.  In short, Obama has been attacked by 4 different columnists in our paper of record in 5 days.

What's fascinating about these attacks is that they generally share a common theme.  Kristol's, Dowd's and Krugman's attacks on Obama focus on his "bitter" comments at the now infamous SF fundraiser.  Brooks re-raises the "issue" today as well.

Dowd's diatribe is somewhat forgiveable.  MoDo is an equal opportunity lampooner.  She bashed HRC's campaign on Sunday, and she poked a little fun at all 3 candidates on 4/6.  She's not treating Obama differently than she treats anyone else, and, unlike the other 3 columnists, she's never pretended to be the purveyor of deep thoughts.

Brooks's terms of non-endearment w/ Obama are not surprising, and they are, arguably, a little welcome.  Most Kossacks would (correctly) be suspicious about a Dem whom Brooks admired.  If Obama has lost Brooks over the course of this campaign, he must be doing something right.

Kristol has been bashing Obama for weeks, which was entirely predictable.  They are poles apart on Iraq and on just about every other FP issue that matters.  There was some small satisfaction in the fact that Kristol had to print a correction on his 3/17 jeremiad on Rev. Wright's comments.

Krugman, however, is another story.  It was understandable that, as an Edwards supporter, he resented Obama's emergence as the viable alternative to HRC.  It is understandable that he disagrees w/ Obama on health care mandates.  It was not, understandable, however, as to why he concluded early on that the Obama camp was primarily responsible for the ugly tone of the Dem campaign.  It was even less understandable that his columns have steadily gone downhill from there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard Sen. Obama state that McVain has "passed the CIC threshold," but HRC hasn't passed it.  I've never heard his spouse shower praise on McVain.  I do recall Obama not piling on about Tuzla at Wed's "debate" while HRC piled on about Wright, Ayers, and the "bitter" remarks.

At this point, something much deeper may be at work here.  Frank Rich has been favorable to Obama for weeks. Bob Herbert, as would be expected, hailed Obama's brilliant speech on race relations.  Otherwise, however, a generally fractious stable of columnists seem to have found consensus in recent days on the proposition that Obama is an elitist who is out of touch w/ ordinary Americans.

These recent NYT columns fit in w/ the approach taken by Gibson/Steph 2 nights ago.  Elitism isn't defined by the fact that a candidate's spouse inherited a $100mm beer distributorship fortune, nor is it defined by the fact that a candidate's spouse made $100mm in 7 years giving speeches and writing books.  Elitism is defined by one's views on gun ownership and on flag lapel pins.

It is to be expected that Brooks and Kristol would join this chorus.  It is unsurprising that MoDo would get her shot in, too.  It is, however, profoundly regrettable to see Krugman piling on as well.

Tags: Paul Krugman, New York Times, Maureen Dowd, William Kristol, David Brooks, Barack Obama (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 122 comments

    •  What I find really odd is that Krugman (5+ / 0-)

      is  married to an African American woman.  Not to play Freud here, but I wonder if Obama is bringing up some issues for Krugman ?

      •  I don't know. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Quicklund, fxq, milkbone

        Why don't you ask his wife if you want to know so badly?

        Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

        by Fabian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:32:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Krugman has jumped the shark (5+ / 0-)

          No reason to probe into the reasons, just cross him off your list of columnists to read.

          So who is left at the NYT?  Frank Rich?

          They dropped their stupid "times select" nonsense, and now Krugman has jumped the shark, so one less reason to read anything the NYT spews out.

          I still blame the NYT and WaPo for the Iraq War runup, they were shamelessly and recklessly pushing for the bush-cheney war, and they have failed as newspapers.  

          Now they will push the slimey McBush on us for the next year or more- good for lining birdcages, not for much else.

          •  I still like Krugman, (6+ / 0-)

            he's just completely lost it where Obama is concerned. As another commenter said, he's perfectly entitled to prefer HRC's health care plan, and to explain his reasons why, and I'll take what he says that comes within his field of expertise quite seriously; but he's gone beyond that, more into Captain Ahab territory, and it makes me sad.

            When civilizations clash, barbarism wins.

            by Allogenes on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:10:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Implying that someone has "issues" (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            fxq, MAORCA

            with African Americans because of ????

            If someone wants to accuse someone of race baiting or racism, let them be honest about it and provide evidence instead of sly insinuations.

            Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

            by Fabian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:23:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please (11+ / 0-)

        let's not go there.

        You know racism is not the only reason people can be wrong about Obama.

        •  Agree (8+ / 0-)

          Krugman's one of the good ones out there.  He's wrong in this primary.

        •  Krugman (correctly) emphasizes the corrosive (7+ / 0-)

          impact that race has had on our politics for the past 40 years.  His book emphasizes that point, and his column brings it up again today.

          One might think, accordingly, that Krugman might be offended by the constant harping on Rev. Wright (HRC harped it again on Wed).  One might think that Krugman could force himself to say a nice word or 2 about Obama's speech on race relations.  Instead, he has essentially reduced himself to recycling Team Clinton talking points.

          It's almost like he's in the tank for them.

          Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

          by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:37:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well of course (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jay w

            not thinking like you, makes him in the tank.

            And you wonder why people have lost so much respect for this blog and its members.  Anyone who does not fall in line here must have problems.  They can't possibly just see things, interprest things differently.  Heaven forbid the democrats embrace a big tent philosophy....we must be like the right wing and all think alike these at dkos and we must all bow before the Obama bandwagon and then jump on.  No thanks.
            Krugman is a true liberal thinker, something not understood here.

            •  Well, (7+ / 0-)

              Krugman certainly has a right not to support Obama, but I don't think he's been entirely fair to him, and that is the point RFK Lives seems to be making.  It's about Krugman's tone, not about his endorsement.

              •  Krugman has jumped the shark, let him go (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                frankzappatista, soms

                He can join his buddy Brooks in pundit land- how connected to the real world are any of these talking heads?

                Too bad about Krugman, his shilling for Hillary will not help us defeat the slimy McBush, hopefully he will stop his attack Barack mode once we get past the primary season.

            •  I think what puzzles a lot of us (10+ / 0-)

              Is the damage that Krugman might be doing to Obama as the nominee.  Krugman, who I very much admire, hasn't just been critical, he's been vicious.  And he knows full well that a McCain election would be devastating to America.

              So it is a bit of a mystery as to why he is taking the tone that he is.   It's one thing to critique Obama's policies, which, after all, are still in the formative process.  It's another thing to attempt to destroy him as a candidate.

              I would have really understood Krugman better if he was approaching his concerns about Obama's economic policies from the perspective of someone from the same team with different ideas.

              This is the only time I have not been able to connect AT ALL with Krugman as a human being and a Dem.  I can't understand why he is still trying to destroy Obama's credibility, when it is overwhelmingly likely that he is going to be the one to challenge McCain.

              Knowing Obama, though, he will invite Krugman onto his economic think tank team.

            •  Big Tent (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              pacific city, Allogenes

              So, considering your comment, I assume that you are ready to support whichever candidate wins the nomination.  Considering that candidate is most likely to be Obama, will you be on the "Obama bandwagon" when that time comes?  

              Frankly, I don't see the question of who Krugman is "in the tank for" to be a criticism.  So what if he is an HRC supporter?  There are columnists that are 'in the tank' for Obama too.  I've got no problem with that.  Both candidates are Democrats.  

              I will start bitching though, if Krugman's antipathy for Obama continues past the convention.  There ain't nothing 'big tent' about that.  It's just destructive.

              "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi

              by Triscula on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:02:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah... How bout we not play Freud then. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fabian, Allogenes, jay w

        John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.

        by recusancy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:34:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  HUH?? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fabian

        Are you honestly claiming Krugman has "race based" issues because he doesn't worship at the Obama altar?Oh wait, I forgot where I was.  This is the daily Obama where not worshipping the senator makes you either a racist or ignorant or a shrew.

        •  Screw your crybaby remarks about 'daily Obama' (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          MD patriot, onanyes, frankzappatista

          It's not about rejecting the people that don't worship him, it's the fact that their criticisms are pathetic and they continue to grasp at straws.  Krugman is whining that Obama said all the things he said about bitter and cling and yadda yadda yadda.  It's been in the news for a week now and plenty of the actual elitists have weighed in and denied that anyone in this country is anything but optimistic, yet we need to hear more reasons why it was bad from Krugman?  I don't think so.  We need to hear him piss and moan about how Obama won't give Bill a big pat on the back?  Give me a break.  The people that make the racism arguments are wrong and I will totally agree with that, but the rest of your comments are a load of crap.  You want to talk about worshipping and altars and doubting and insulting people that don't support a certain candidate?  From everything I've seen, it's a bigger betrayal---JUDAS LEVEL---if you don't support or treat with extra levels of praise and respect anyone whose last name is CLINTON.

        •  Your comments are really disruptive n/t (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          frankzappatista
      •  I am really surprised that (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fabian, Allogenes

        this is getting recc'd. Appalling comment especially the implication that one would expect him to vote for Obama beacause he is married to an African American woman. That is racism even if not meant to cause offense.

      •  That is irrelevant, isn't it? (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MD patriot, bibble, Fabian, Allogenes

        Krugman, normally someone I agree with, seems to have a bit of a screw loose in regard to Obama.  Let's put it this way:  there are two candidates whose proposals are close to identical.  Do you (a) talk about other issues, or (b) belabor those narrow points to death?

        Go figure.  Something to do with the Times endorsing Clinton?  Only they know for sure.  When we speak of Brooks and Kristol I think Obama can wear that as a badge of honor.  They are scrambling to (heart) Hillary in hopes of blunting Obama's march towards the nomination.  The contrast between Obama and Gramps will be a tough one for the GOP to explain away.  Obama is taller, he is smarter, more articulate and he has no known illnesses or tendency to fall into a rage and start cursing his colleagues.  Which would make a better Commander in Chief?  The calm one, or the one prone to uncontrollable rages?

        The punditry are circling their wagons.  History is marching on while they are stuck on the side of the road trying to change their philosophical tire.

      •  Not to play Freud here (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Fabian

        [cue to begin playing Freud]

    •  Krugman is becoming like LIEberman (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      onanyes, crankyinNYC, Allogenes

      He is so transparent, and has lost much credibility...........Who cares what Bo-Bo Brooks has to say and MoDo is just rancid!

      CondiLiar Rice, enabler and war criminal

      by gaiilonfong on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:41:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The status quo is afraid (12+ / 0-)

      of an Obama Presidency. I am not surprised by these attacks at all. I expected more of them early on as Obama was on a winning streak in February.

      I mean what do you make of a candidate whose donations to his candiacy are being funded by the people? Scary thought for the status quo, and it damn well should scare them.

    •  Care to rebut (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      nilocjin, milkbone

      Krugman on substance. I'm not sure I agree with his column, but it certainly wasn't "an assault." As a serious columnist he deserves a serious rebuttal.

      He makes a few points, that it's inaccurate and politically unwise to argue that the Clinton years were as bad for rural blue collar voters as the GOP years, and that it's not true that people turn to religion out of economic desperation.

      He also makes the tangential point that it's ironic to see Obama embracing Thomas Frank given that he's hardly pushing the kind of class critique that Frank advocates.

      I'd love to see you pokes holes in the arguments instead of acting like just another Obama supported shocked that someone doesn't prefer your candidate.

      •  Here's a poke (4+ / 0-)

        I think it is disingenuous, at best, for anyone to still be using Obama's original remarks as the basis for their "response pieces."  The man has expounded, explained, and clarified it ad nauseum and admitted that the original wording he used was unfortunate.

        But these columnists could give a shit about that.  The clarified remarks don't leave nearly as much of an opening for the picking of the nits, so those tend to get left alone.

        Maybe Obama should have just said, "Screw 'em!"

      •  I've written several diaries (7+ / 0-)

        addressing in detail my problems w/ Krugman columns on Obama.  I wrote this one on March 7, another one on March 3, and still another one on Feb 11.  There's one on Feb 4, too.

        I've had enough fun doing point by point refutations of a columnist whose work I once eagerly devoured.  My point here was not to do so a 5th time.  My point was to put Krugman in context w/ Brooks, Dowd, and Kristol, all of whom have also attacked Obama for out of context remarks that have little to do w/ the real issues facing this country today.

        As I also noted in another comment here, given Krugman's (entirely correct) views on the utterly corrosive effect of race relations on American politics, one might think, at some point, he might address the numerous racial subtexts of this campaign.

        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:57:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You really think it is not true (0+ / 0-)

        that people turn to religion during economic crisis?  You really believe that?

        "We need an energy bill that encourages consumption." --Trenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002-GWB

        by meatwad420 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:57:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, it is unfortunate (5+ / 0-)

    Krugman is one columnist I like to read, usually. The social security falling out I understand as a kind of semnatics arguments (Krugman says there is no problem that Obama says he wants to fix--Krugman is right in my view, btw). But this piling on about the tone is just wrong headed and dumb.

    Maybe Krugman's a Clinton fan and can't get that out of his system? But geez, for an economist, you'd expect a bit more objectivity.

  •  I thought I was OK with it... (13+ / 0-)

    But then I read Broder's column and he said that Barack had lied about not attacking Hillary on Bosnia, claiming that his campaign was "all over it"

    WHAT??????????????????????????

    If this was Hillary:

    1. Barack himself would have talked about it at every event. "I know many of you, like me, are dissapointed by Hillary's lies about Bosnia. I find this fabrication, done for political gain, to be disrespectful of our troops and men and women who have experienced REAL sniper fire"
    1. No benefit of the doubt on whether she lied or not, just like no benefit of the doubt on the meaning of Barack's words about small towns. The terminology would immediately be "When Hillary about Bosnia"
    1. Several surrogates concern trolling her electability on every cable show.
    1. David Plouffe concern trolling her electability to the Super Delegates.
    1. Oh yeah, a nice "man on the street" with offended people, the audio of her telling the story various times, and then the visual.

    So....I have no idea what Obama's campaign did around Bosnia. But I am pretty sure they were NOT "all over it"

  •  I gotta say (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader, Temmoku, Allogenes

    as an Edwards supporter from the beginning, I think Krugman's pretty fair and hits on a lot of the things that make me uncomfortable with Senator Obama.  That said, I do prefer Obama to Clinton, though that has little to do with the issues and more to do with style (not the part where he doesn't talk about class issues but the part where he's willing to talk to Americans as equals rather than talking down to them).

    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

    by nilocjin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:35:01 AM PDT

  •  Krugman doesnt like Obama (4+ / 0-)

    IMO he considers him a pale imitation of Edwards and he apparently has a fairly high esteem of the Clintons so dont understand why people are surprised that Krugman doesnt like Obama.

  •  Dowd (6+ / 0-)

    Dowd's diatribe is somewhat forgiveable.  MoDo is an equal opportunity lampooner.

    Well, that and she's bona-fide nuts.

    However, she usually unleashes her low-quality crazy on Dems, which is the biggest problem.

  •  The Clintons have a lot of friends in the media (7+ / 0-)

    They like to complain about coverage so their surrogates in the TM can say the media has not been fair to her.

  •  Obama doesn't do well with Jewish voters (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    notquitedelilah

    I'm not sure why, but it's one of the things he'll have to overcome if we wants to be president.

    •  I often see this stated as fact (5+ / 0-)

      but never see the supporting evidence.

      •  I'm not using Krugman as evidence (0+ / 0-)

        As the New York Times does not speak for all Jewish Americans, but there are a lot of reasons why people suspect Obama will not be the most pro-Israel candidate:

        1. He opposed going to war in Iraq in 2002
        1. He didn't support Kyle-Lieberman
        1. Rev Wright
        1. His middle name
        1. His grandmother is Muslim
        1. His willingness to meet with the leader of Iran
        •  Does Jewish American = Pro Israel? (0+ / 0-)

          And how far is this loyalty taken?

          If you mean "Pro-Israel voters", say so.  If you mean "Jews", say so.

          I realize this is swirling waters -- my first concern is that we clearly define our terms.

          Two war crimes make 'the right', not 'a right'. Defeat the liar John McCain.

          by Yellow Canary on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:51:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I suspect they're correlated (0+ / 0-)

            Not all Jewish voters are pro-Israel, and not all pro-Israel voters are Jewish, but I suspect there's a correlation just as I suspect Arab Americans are pro-Arabia, African Americans are pro-Africa, European Americans are pro-European.  

            •  Do Jewish voters support the Iraq invasion? (3+ / 0-)

              Not the Jewish voters I know here in Maryland!  So why would anyone assume that the Lieberman-bush position on Iraq was held by the majority of Jews?

              •  Well Jewish voters are far more educated (0+ / 0-)

                than other voters, and educated people tend to oppose the war in Iraq, but the question is whether Jewish voters opposed the Iraq war at the same rates as highly educated non-Jews.  There's no data on that, and it would probably be unwise to use the opinions of the mainstream media as representative of all Jewish Americans.

            •  The degree of correlation is exactly what I ... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Punditcrat

              ... am questioning.  I suspect it is much less high than you think -- but I don't know.  Of course, even the identity "pro-Israel" needs to be defined.  There are many ways to be "pro-Israel".

              Two war crimes make 'the right', not 'a right'. Defeat the liar John McCain.

              by Yellow Canary on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:04:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I suspect it's quite high (0+ / 0-)

                All humans are biologically wired by natural selection to protect their own gene pools because that's where copies of ones own genes are most likely to be found.

                •  That's too reductive. (0+ / 0-)

                  I am trying to move beyond our assumptions.  The questions isn't "What do you think" any more than it's "What do I think?".  The question is, to what degree, and in what specific ways, do Jewish American voters support American support of Israel.

                  I am programmed by natural selection to kill to eat, and to breed like crazy, and to maintain a completely controlled pool of opposite-sex breeders, and to kill most rivals to my breeding supremacy -- oddly, I haven't yet done any of that.

                  Two war crimes make 'the right', not 'a right'. Defeat the liar John McCain.

                  by Yellow Canary on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:52:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  A lot of jewish america (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Yellow Canary, greenboy

            is greatly influenced (often unconsciously) by AIPAC.  Even some very intelligent and otherwise progressive people (particularly those old enough to remember the six day war) have a blindspot about this.  That history for them is so overwhelmingly emotional that rationality rarely shows itself.

          •  Just a point -- don't say "pro-Israel" (3+ / 0-)

            when you mean support for the policies of the current government of Israel. That's exactly equivalent to defining "pro-American" to mean support for the GOP's war in Iraq.

            There is, both inside Israel and amongst the Jewish diaspora, a huge lot of vigorous disagreement with the current Israeli government's policies. Let's not imply that those who disagree are somehow anti-Israel.

            Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

            by Canadian Reader on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:52:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Your list is interesting... (4+ / 0-)

          Oh no, he didn't support a war that little or nothing to do with Israel.  Good one.

          He didn't support Kyl-Lieberman, which was supportive of taking steps toward WAR WITH IRAN. That goes against Israel's interests how?  Interesting.

          His middle name is Hussein, so Jews understand that that is code for Jew-Hater.  Yes.

          His grandmother, that lives in another country, is Muslim, just like a whole shit-ton of other people in her country.  Because someone's family member is Muslim, they automatically want to see Israel destroyed. Keeps getting better.

          He wants to meet with Iran, and why you ask?  To, bear with me, PREVENT MORE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST.  Yeah, that sure is anti-Israel.  

          •  Obama is not anti-Israel (0+ / 0-)

            But he is at risk for being misinterpreted as such.  Something doesn't have to be true for it to have political consequences. Consider the fact that 10% think Obama is Muslim, despite the fact that he was raised Christian and both his parents were atheists.

            •  Yeah, I can agree with 'misinterpretation' (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Hornito

              but it's starting with you and your on-point list.  Yeah, 10% of people that would never vote for Obama say they think he's a Muslim, and I'll bet you they're the same people that think if we "lose" the war in Iraq we'll all be wearing turbins by next year.  If you buy that, you'll buy anything.  If you have any problem with these 'misrepresentations' as you call them, don't make lists that help people summarize why he's anti-Israel.  

        •  Why would Jewish Americans want (0+ / 0-)

          him to support Kyle-Lieberman?

          Are they not patriotic Americans? Do they want America embroiled in another empty war?

          John McCain "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian

          by notquitedelilah on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:59:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It's Not ! (0+ / 0-)

        This was addressed last week in the CNN Situation Room. Barack Obama and Hillary are running even with the Jewish Community . The only difference is the states where they are winning which goes to show that they are not a monolithic group and the notion of weighing them as a voting block is ridiculous.

        "Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well. " Barack Obama:A More Perfect Union

        by WeBetterWinThisTime on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:15:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not necessarily true (8+ / 0-)

      I read polling data that said Obama and Hillary split the Jewish vote roughly 50/50, which means he does slightly better with Jewish voters than with white voters as a whole. Furthermore, the divide appeared to be along age lines as is the case with other demographic groups.

      The weak in courage is strong in cunning-William Blake

      by beltane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:43:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Robert Reich trumps Krugman (7+ / 0-)

    & is going to endorse Obama.

    He WORKED for the Clintons.

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    by DiAnne on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:38:28 AM PDT

  •  In my whole life I've never read NYT op-ed page. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Allogenes, daliscar, cybrestrike

    I dont expect to start now.

    I suppost there is some value to reading the NYT as it presents the views of a certain segment of those who hold power, but I'd rather find those views in other sources than in anyway contribute to the financial gains fo the NYT by ever buying that rag.

    "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

    by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:38:47 AM PDT

    •  this is as silly (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RFK Lives, Allogenes

      as only reading the nyt opinion page.

      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

      by zic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:04:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The NYT shapes opinion, like it or not (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zic, Allogenes, cybrestrike

        So do Timmy, Wolfie, and, sadly, Gibson and Steph.  It's becoming increasingly apparent that the opinion shapers are generally moving in 1 direction, and it's a different direction than ours.  

        My sadness w/ Krugman is that I never would've expected him to join that crowd.  I used to read him as an antidote to the idiot talking heads.

        Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

        by RFK Lives on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:11:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  After Obama wins the nomination (0+ / 0-)

          I suspect he'll change his tune.

          But maybe not. The NYT, as much as ABC, CBS, NBC, WSJ, etc. are corporate-owned media. They fear a populist candidate, a candidate who understands that middle-class idoes not earn $200,000/year. We're icky, we may have bugs or something. We smell bad because we can't afford Laura Ashley soaps. And our clothes are funny because they're off the rack instead of being tailored. And we drive old gas guzzlers because a new prius costs too much. And before I forget, we compain on the internets too much.

          "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

          by zic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:32:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But, Krugman isn't the NYT. (0+ / 0-)

            He has amply demonstrated that he is able to write columns demolishing their so-called "conventional wisdom". Don't accuse him of being a mouthpiece for the corporate-owned media. That's not fair -- he writes what he thinks.

            On the other hand, although he has a track record of being right a lot more often than most op-ed columnists, he's human and has been known to be wrong.

            The question is, why does he distrust Obama so much that he has, unusually for him, fallen for the corporate media's habitual focus on trivia?

            Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

            by Canadian Reader on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:09:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not sure I agree (0+ / 0-)

              for instance, did he have a voice -- and how much of a voice -- in NYT's endorsement of Clinton?

              And I know a few "insiders" in the Clinton camp, at a distance, and there's the same apparant distrust; like a contagion that's spread; a fear of someone getting between Clinton and what's rightfully hers.

              I'd rather have Clinton then McCain any day. But when push comes to shove, from my fringe perspective, Clinton and McCain are two sides of the same corporate-owned coin.

              "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

              by zic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:06:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't see why he would have any voice (0+ / 0-)

                in the NYT editorial policies. He's not their employee, and he doesn't have a box anywhere in their internal org chart. They just pay him for a column.

                His day job is being a professor of economics at Princeton.

                Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

                by Canadian Reader on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:51:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  From Brooks... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    nilocjin

    "Then there are cultural issues. Charles Gibson and George Stephanopoulos are taking a lot of heat for spending so much time asking about Jeremiah Wright and the  'bitter' comments. But the fact is that voters want a president who basically shares their values and life experiences. Fairly or not, they look at symbols like Michael Dukakis in a tank,  John Kerry's windsurfing or John Edwards's haircut as clues about shared values."

    ...mmkay...

    •  Because we all know that "Millionaire Charlie" (9+ / 0-)

      Gibson, "Bow Tie George" Will, and "Countess Cokie" Roberts are the true representatives of mainstream America's cultural values. Sheesh, that whole NY/Washington media crowd need to get out of their walled compound more often, their continued inbreeding is producing a whole caste of freaks.

      The weak in courage is strong in cunning-William Blake

      by beltane on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:47:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Windsurfing is great exercise (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        beltane

        And too difficult for most of the DC insider crowd to even understand- why is that windsurfer going so fast?  Why would anyone want to blast over the water at 30 knots or more?  What is a knot?

        Just way too confusing for the DC wimps.

        Millionaire pundits like the slimy Gibson and blow-dry boy George are sickening.  Just primp up that hair Stephy-boy, and get some contacts Gibson, you look like an idiot!

    •  In other words it's about racism. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      QuestionableSanity, Punditcrat

      We can't let a scary, dark-skinned person with unknown cultural values into the oval office.

      Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. Rinse, repeat. Fear, fear, fear, fear. . .

      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

      by zic on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:07:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This whole argument (7+ / 0-)

    on whether Obama can withstand the right-wing smear machine is a bunch of crap. He's getting it from all sides...and prevailing.

  •  Krugman really chaps my ass. (9+ / 0-)

    I sent him a letter after reading this morning's column, saying that I get how much he liked the Clinton administration and that he doesn't like or trust (or whatever his issue is with) Obama.  That's all fine, but I don't think it's relevant or appropriate to whine about Obama not being super congratulatory to Hillary Clinton for all the successes of Bill Clinton's presidency.  Forgive me, but I believe that Bill and Hillary Clinton are separate people, and not only was she NOT president at the time, she wasn't an elected official of any sort.  It's fine to be annoyed that Obama's not praising Clinton's administration, but his criticisms have largely been on the politics, not the policies. Given the current race for the nomination, can't Krugman understand WHY Obama would hesitate to praise Bill Clinton?  That any praise placed on Bill would be conflated as praise to Hillary, giving her credit where credit is not at all due?  That if he started talking about how Bill did suuuuuuch a great job it would be handing the great MSM that we have its stories on a silver platter?   In my letter to Krugman I also mentioned how brave and intelligent he is for bringing up the whole bitter/cling controversy, since the columnists at the New York Times are anything but elitists.  These high-horse political hacks are making me sick.

    •  Krugman wasn't demanding that Obama (0+ / 0-)

      praise Clinton, just suggesting that it might not be the best idea to suggest that the economic growth years under Clinton were bad.  That's not how people remember those years, and they want them back.  Just leave Bill out of it for now, and then use the Clinton boom during the general.  

      If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

      by nilocjin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:47:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's fine, but you don't hear Obama saying that (4+ / 0-)

        he's not talking about how bad the economics were in the 90's.  Not saying that Bill Clinton did a bad job.  You know who's whining about who being unfair?  BILL CLINTON.  Obama criticizes the lack of transparency, the polarizing politics, and stuff like that making it harder to get things done, which points to things that were a problem BEFORE Bill Clinton.  The point is that while Bill did get good things done, he would have been even MORE productive if the politics and other shady business wasn't there.  I'm sure Obama would LOVE to leave Bill out of it for now, but he campaigns in more cities and towns on most days than Obama and Hillary combined.  There's no leaving Bill out of it anymore, especially since Hillary thinks she deserves credit for all the things he did.  All the good things, at least.

  •  As someone who live 45 miles from SF (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Allogenes, beltane

    I didn't find any problem at all with Obama's comments. He accurately stated how it looks from the West Coast.

    No one likes ciritism, but if the people of Pennsylvania don't like to see their reflection in the eyes of West Coasters, then maybe they are not dealing with a reality that they should be paying attention to.  

    People may deny that conservativeism is based largely in bitterness, but it is a fact. People don't deceive themselves with a faith based evangelism like George W. Bush unless there is a deep bitterness.

    "The United States will always do the right thing, after trying all the other options." ~ Winston Churchill

    by Gregory Wonderwheel on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:44:09 AM PDT

    •  And here's where you simply (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Allogenes

      do not get it.

      PA residents, even in the rural areas, are much more open minded that people here in Obama country (CO).
      I grew up in PA, went to school in PA and I can tell you from talking to my friends and relatives.  They resent the stereotyping in rural PA in the same way the people in Philly resent the stereotyping they have received for years.
      Most of my friends who do go to church have been doing so forever....not just because times are tough.  The men in their families have hunted ALWAYS, not just because of bad times.   And for the most part, the majority are not bigoted xenophobes.  And they resent the hell out of a bunch of rich CA people deciding how they think and feel.

      •  I think the reference to people (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MD patriot, Urizen, Allogenes

        clinging to guns and religion is more about single issue voters, i.e., abortion, gay marriage and gun control. And there are many of these voters who are voting against their economic interests.

      •  but I think Obama's point (4+ / 0-)

        was to respond to the question of why working class Pennsylvanians weren't voting for him.  He didn't take the Ed Rendell/James Carville line about Pennsyltucky and some folks not being ready to vote for a black guy.  Instead he said think about the economic conditions people is some of these small have endured for decades.  If no one's going to pay attention to your economic needs, then religion and traditions like guns become foregrounded issues, because people want to hold on to what they have.  It seems like a comment on human nature in general rather than a judgment on PA.  

  •  I've begun to wonder (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Allogenes, cybrestrike, Robin in PA

    how much actual influence these dreary columnists have on voter behavior.

    Who reads the NYT these days? And who reads the op-ed columns? Isn't it mostly the highly educated portion of the electorate? We at DKos are, I think, much more sensitive and reactive to elite print media events than most of the populace.

    At least with respect to the Clinton/Obama vote, all polls show that Obama enjoys strong support among the highly educated, and broad support among the college educated. People who did not go to college are unlikely to be reading the Times op-eds with much attention, I suspect.

    I can imagine that the columnists have some effect by introducing or perpetuating false issues and controversies which then "trickle down" (ha!) to the population at large, or by providing talking points for mass distribution via TV. But often these columnists (esp. Dodo) merely seem to be reacting to, but not actually influencing, outside opinion.

    But do the printed bloviations of intellectuals have tremendous impact on Joe and Jane Main Street?

    Whoever considers one person's life more valuable than another's will soon find himself unworthy of his own.

    by rilkas on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:44:51 AM PDT

    •  Who reads the NYT these days? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RFK Lives, rilkas

      It has been a slow withering process for me. First I stopped reading the Sunday Times years ago because I resented paying so much for so little content ( stuffed with ads and style pieces that seem to appeal to rich yuppies and Connecticut gentry). Then I stopped on certain days because I get most hard news from the internet and was only interested in Op-Ed pieces but wanted to avoid MoDowd. Now avoiding MoDowd, Brooks, Kristol, and sadly, Krugman. So what is the point?

      I don't think the ownership influences the Op-Ed page, but they do choose who works there. Adding Kristol was the last straw.

      I imagine the NYT will be sold in the next couple of years. So long. I miss Safire, Red Smith, and a paper that once had some guts (Pentagon Papers). I guess that makes me horrible dated. At least this dinosaur has adapted to the internet rather well.

  •  Intellectualism is a ripe topic ... (5+ / 0-)

    ... for someone to write about.

    Obama is not a sophist.  Edwards is not a sophist.  Hillary has adopted the strategy of sophistry -- this is the velvet bathrobe belt that she shares with the entire Republican Party, including John McCain.

    Sophistry is inherently opposed to intellectualism (I include rational thought as a part of Intellectualism).  The Right Wing has won their battle for America, and they did it, partially, by destroying the possibility of a rational discussion of how to achieve our goals (Republican Party goals cannot be rationally considered).

    The battle, now joined, is over the rules of public discourse.

    Two war crimes make 'the right', not 'a right'. Defeat the liar John McCain.

    by Yellow Canary on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:48:08 AM PDT

  •  I never liked Krugman, I always found his views (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cybrestrike

    on economics flawed in that they can only function in the ideal rather than in the realistic realm. It has always been obvious to me that as an economist he is an academic who has never had to deal with the real world.

    As to his position towards Obama I suspect it may have more to do with Obama's Middle East policy than his personality.

    John McCain "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian

    by notquitedelilah on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:48:26 AM PDT

  •  From Krugman's piece (10+ / 0-)

    let’s hope that once Mr. Obama is no longer running against someone named Clinton, he’ll stop denigrating the very good economic record of the only Democratic administration most Americans remember.

    This is from the end.

    And it is why I don't like Krugman all that much, or at least one reason among many.  Others would include his unwillingness as a nominally left court economist to look at the extraction of economic tribute from the developing world and call it for what it is and his unwillingness to recognize that class struggle is very real and not some Marxist fantasy.

    As for the 1990's, Pentagon spending was still a balloon, and the economy was still militarized, despite no real enemy after the collapse of the Soviet Union.  The militarization of the economy is essentially State Socialism for the uber-wealthy.  Also, Clinton signed TANF and NAFTA, both of which hurt the poor and the working classes.  Clinton also signed tax cuts in 1997 that favored the wealthy, notably on capital gains.  And it was the Fed's pump priming that drove the economy, not the POTUS.  

    Notice how in his piece he doesn't address the economic fallout of that manufactured boom.

    And the whole balanced budget thing was more shell game accounting than a real surplus, and besides, if we had a surplus, why not rebuild some schools, hire more teachers, maybe in MS or Alabama?

    Workers of the world unite--back by popular demand.

    by Kab ibn al Ashraf on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:51:53 AM PDT

    •  Krugman likes the bi-partisan WAR Party (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Allogenes

      Plenty of money flowing to the fat-cat defense contractors, and sure the Clinton years were better than slime-bush, but that sure is an easy comparison.

      If Bill Clinton had not wasted himself with the sleazy intern we would have had eight years of Al Gore instead of the chimp-faced idiot.

    •  Using your same quotation, slighly truncated (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Canadian Reader, Allogenes

      let’s hope that once Mr. Obama is no longer running against someone named Clinton

      One thing you can say for Krugman is that he realizes that Obama will be the nominee.  

      If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

      by nilocjin on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:08:11