Daily Kos

No Paper Trails for Voting Machines in PA..Who Is In Charge of Final Votes?

Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:33:48 PM PDT

April 22nd is nearly upon us and it promises to be a knock down drag out fight to finish on voting day in Pennsylvania. Today on the Race to the White House Show, Rachel Maddow predicted that Hilary Clinton may have one more secret bomb to drop on Obama prior to the vote, perhaps on Sunday or Monday. This got me to thinking, after the obvious hit job conducted by ABC there probably would not be much more that could be thrown at Obama between now and next Tuesday. After all, HRC is now spreading the newest set of lies that Obama is whining about the debate and that he obviously cannot take the heat of hard questions. The debate was nothing more than a tabloid gotcha set up to knee cap Obama, and regardless of what others think, I believe HRC  acted in collusion with George to ensure a final blow on Obama. Then I started thinking about the actual voting machines that will be used on Tuesday.  I found out some rather interesting facts.

On April 7, 2008 Mary Kuznick wrote an article entitled: Pennsylvania, State of Denial about the fact that Pennsylvania is one of 12 states left in our country that do not have a back up paper vote for proof of voting.  I have parts of this article that may horrify you, because it is very obvious to me that there could be some dubious and/or highly illegal voting tampering on April 22nd and I think we need to be forewarned and prepared.

With the national spotlight on The Keystone State's April 22 Primary, many heads remain buried in sand when it comes to electronic voting.

Following the inconclusive Ohio and Texas Democratic primaries earlier this month, the national spotlight turned swiftly to Pennsylvania's April 22 election as the next battleground. And in the glare of that white-hot national spotlight it is more apparent than ever that there is great risk for electoral disaster in The Keystone State.

With fifty-one of its most populous counties still voting on completely paperless Direct Record Electronic machines, Pennsylvania remains one of the last twelve states to have passed no law requiring every vote to be backed up with a voter-verified paper record or ballot.

Time and time again Pennsylvania has had to replace failed electronic voting machines, bailing out counties and vendors at taxpayer expense. Pennsylvania has been plagued with a rash of problems caused by failures of paperless, unverifiable voting machines. These problems have ranged from extremely high levels of undervotes (indicating a large number of voters are not having their votes counted), to faulty programming and ballot preparation, to outright loss of votes due to machines being set up improperly on Election Day.

With huge party machine politics entrenched on both the Republican and Democratic sides,

Pennsylvania had a long history of election irregularities and difficulties long before the rise of electronic voting.

And although one of the state's most prominent suppliers of voting machines and supplies was convicted of election fraud, the paperless electronic voting machines his company originally developed continue to count the votes of nearly two and a half million Pennsylvanians to this very day.

But despite past problems and current warnings from computer scientists and neighboring states, Pennsylvania officials from County Commissioners and Election Directors to the Governor himself inexplicably continue to embrace paperless electronic voting. Their public mantra is that Pennsylvania elections on paperless electronic machines are secure and accurate.

Excuse me, how do know they are secure and accurate? Will there be independent voter fraud investigators there to check the computers? To do any oversight?  I don't think so.

Despite this difficulty in the state's third largest voting jurisdiction, as the 21st Century dawned a number of Pennsylvania counties were moving voluntarily to purchase touchscreen and pushbutton electronic voting equipment. And as more counties adopted electronic voting, the ranks of counties dealing with problems grew. Some incidents resulted in serious losses of votes.

During the election of 2004, it is estimated that at least ten thousand votes were lost by the UniLect Patriot touchscreen voting system in Beaver, Mercer, and Greene counties. Some precincts in Mercer County had undervote rates of over seventy and eighty percent. If this were true it would mean that, in the incredibly important Presidential election, eight out of ten voters in those precincts simply did not care to vote for President! The far more probable scenario is that the UniLect machine failed to count most of those votes. With no voter verified paper record available on those machines to recount or audit, there was simply no way to reclaim those lost votes or even to know for sure exactly what happened.

On May 17, 2005, a number of Danaher (formerly Shouptronic) DREs failed to record any votes in about half a dozen Berks County precincts during the Municipal Primary. Votes were apparently not recorded due to improper settings on the machine during the election, and improper memory cartridges being installed. With no paper records to audit or recount, a re-vote was called for, lawsuits were filed, and some voters never did get to cast a vote that was counted in that Primary.

Once again, if noticed at all, the loss of votes was dismissed by officials and media as a simple "glitch" or blamed on pollworker error.

With the Help America Vote Act taking effect for the first federal election of 2006, the rush was on to comply and get the federal money HAVA promised for the purchase of new machines. It seemed that no one in a position of authority wanted to buck the system by pointing out the electronic voting was an emperor without clothes.

The stage was set for a free-for-all as vendors readied themselves to vie for the windfall in voting machine sales, and denial became the order of the day in Pennsylvania.

This is a disaster waiting to happen, and it would appear to me that Hilary will not have to throw out another 'bomb' on Obama the day before the election.  It would appear to me that based on this history of Pennsylvania's voting record and serious problems, that we, the voters will have no way of ensuring if the voting was done properly or counted properly, because there will be no back up proof to rely on. The 'fix' could already be a done deal, and how would anyone even know? The same old excuses could very well be used: Oh, it was a simple glitch, or it was errors by the pollworkers.

Wonder who the pollworkers are working for.

Just thought you might like to know.  Thanks.

Badabing

Tags: Voter Fraud, Electronic Voting Machines, Hilary Clinton, Barack Obama, Pennsylvania Primary Election, Election Integrity (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 86 comments

  •  Hope someone can enligten me on this voting thing (16+ / 0-)

    'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Noah Cross, Chinatown

    by Badabing on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:37:32 PM PDT

    •  Well, the first thing to know (4+ / 0-)

      is your tag is wrong. It's not "Voter Fraud", it's Election Fraud.

      Voter fraud is when you vote twice etc.

      The second thing to know is that diaries questioning the integrity of the electoral process are strictly forbidden here. Here we believe that not raising doubts about the integrity of the electoral process is far more important than fighting to have an electoral process we don't have to raise doubts about in the first place.

      Thirdly, suspicions of election fraud are nasty conspiracy theories. People in power never conspire, and would never cheat to win.

      •  Oh yeah (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        riverdan1900, rontun, ppl can fly

        I forgot - It can't be done. Computer voting machines and vote tabulation machines running Microsoft Windows are completely secure.

      •  Very snarky, indeed. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        TocqueDeville, ppl can fly

        I've read many a diary about this same subject on Kos, and thanks for the heads up on the voter fraud vs. election fraud. The information that I've written in this diary is and has been an issue for a long time in our country, and I stand by it. If people want to put their heads in the sand and pretend it is going to go away, or does not exist that's their choice. I know better, as does President Al Gore.

        'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Noah Cross, Chinatown

        by Badabing on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:37:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  what a riot. election fraud's a taboo subject? (0+ / 0-)

        christ - that's simply absolutely fucking crazy.  because of course, no one would ever screw with our electoral system for personal gain.

        i'm gonna go back to cornell west's statement tonight:

        "and then we have a political sphere where we can't critically discuss these issues....  These are the makings of a collapse of an empire."

        Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

        by jj24 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:42:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why can't we all bring a piece of paper (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry, la urracca, Badabing

    with our vote, name, address, etc., show 'em ID, and they certify it?

    It's just a damned piece of paper, after all. Where have I heard that before?

    •  That what exit polling does.We did this in Ohio (0+ / 0-)

      You tell the exit pollers how you voted and sign your name.Your address and phone number is helpful too.That way if things look screwy you can count your exit polls and tell if the percentage matches the published totals.Then you can challenge them.
      They can't do a handcount so they will have to re do the election.That's ok.
      These guys are slow learners. They don't seem to know what Democracy looks like so we have to show them.

      You can learn about this at www.votersunite.org and www.projectvotecount.com

      They will tell you who is doing exit polling in your area and you can sign up to do it.It isn't too late.But you have to hop on it now.

      It may seem crazy and disorganized but we are getting better at it and it also lets the Board of Election officials we aren't going to take this lying down.
      Remember we have every right to look over their shoulder.Don't be intimidated.You deserve a fair election.

  •  If we are not concerned about this.... (9+ / 0-)

    we are fools.

  •  This has been bugging me all day. (8+ / 0-)

    They will do anything, anything to keep him from winning the nomination. This may be it. To make Hillary look viable and continue on with hardcore mudslinging. I'd say this is a 90% chance come Tuesday. Naturally the GOP does not want Obama near McCain. Remember the passport incident? Digging for dirt.

  •  I am very frighted about this... (6+ / 0-)

    If this is rigged, how would we know about it? No paper trails, no way to prove it? Thanks for getting the word out about this, and thanks so much for rec'd the diary. I think the more people know about this the better.

    'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Noah Cross, Chinatown

    by Badabing on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:55:08 PM PDT

    •  The vote will be fixed (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Badabing

      all the noise leading up to this primary is just to provide justificaiotn for the rigged result. You have to understand that this movement for Obama presents  a serious threat to the monied coporate-welfare interests that make billions by raking up our tax dollars. They will do whatever they can to destroy his chances of becoming President, because billions of dollars are at stake.

      You must be the change you want to see in the world. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by fetalposition on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:40:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  'Fast Eddie' Rendell is in (6+ / 0-)

    charge. Ummm...been saying for awhile, no matter how popular, how many votes he gets, he's not going to win! This is Rendell's game and he isn't giving up the ball.

    •  Well if Eddie is in charge, then that tells me (7+ / 0-)

      Hilary has it in the bag. Expect a disaster folks. This is the silent bomb that we will never be able to prove.

      'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Noah Cross, Chinatown

      by Badabing on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:01:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are many ways to steal an election (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Badabing

        Disenfranchising voters,rigging the voting equipment, obstructing accountability with no paper trail, corrupt board of election officials,intimidating voters and election integrity citizens, washing the ballots so the original mark is removed and changed (we think they did this in New Hampshire)and distroying legitimate ballots, giving voters the wrong information about precinct locations (remember the Republicans did this in 2004.

        Stealing our Democracy is a very serious offense.Its treason.

        Get involved in exit polling.

        www.countthevote.org
        www.votersunite.org
        www.votetrustusa.org

  •  If you draw enough attention... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry, Badabing

    Seriously, it's not too late...  With great power comes great responsibility... Kos now has the power in the #'s... I'm not around to organize anything on this, but those in PA need to get together.  

  •  It may be nothing ... (4+ / 0-)

    then again ... I'm not implying anything here, just pointing out some convergences. So take this 'cut and paste' job for what it's worth.

    In 2006, "several Commonwealth Court judges [...] questioned whether the state has a fair process for citizens to challenge the use of controversial touch-screen electronic voting machines." [...] The Pennsylvania Department of State argued [...] that the lawsuit should be dismissed before trial. It said the lawsuit is based on rehashed allegations that have failed in other courts and on speculation that errors could occur or machines could be hijacked by computer hackers. [...] Mark Aronchick, an attorney for the state, told the judges the lawsuit was not filed soon enough. - Link

    Mark Aronchick is a special election-law expert hired by the Rendell administration.

    "Mark Aronchick, a Philadelphia lawyer who is a national cochair of Clinton's finance committee, said the campaign would have "ample resources" for Pennsylvania. "Whatever it takes," he said. - Link

    •  Your implications are right. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      revgerry, la urracca
    •  Some folks are concerned in Pennsylvania, too... (5+ / 0-)

      http://www.philly.com/...

      In Montgomery County, interest in the primary has provoked some concern about the abilities of the machines that will count the ballots.

      Montgomery is one of only two Pennsylvania counties using the Sequoia AVC Advantage voting machine, now the subject of an inquiry by the New Jersey Attorney General's Office over problems that arose in that state's February primary.

      Although the machines have been used in New Jersey for years without major reported problems, 60 of the machines in four counties came up with identical problems in February counting the number of voters. Vote counts were not affected, but election officials have been confounded trying to solve what Sequoia has blamed on worker error.

      "The findings do not make sense," Mercer County Clerk Paula Sollani wrote in a March 1 letter requesting the state investigation. "It is far too easy to blame the poll workers. Errors such as this have never happened before in Mercer County."

      A spokesman for the New Jersey Attorney General's Office said the situation remained unresolved, though Sequoia officials maintained otherwise and posted a blog entry yesterday saying "an easy configuration change" would prevent similar errors.

      Montgomery County political and government officials said yesterday they were unaware of New Jersey's problems with Sequoia.

      Susan Greenhalgh, a spokeswoman for the nonpartisan election watchdog group Voteraction.org, said the problems encountered in New Jersey's primary show that the Sequoia machines are fundamentally unreliable because of the lack of a paper record of each vote cast.

    •  So Mark Aronchick Clinton's national cochair who (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ppl can fly

      works for Eddie Rendell told the judges the lawsuit was not filed soon enough...oh, well...wonder why it wasn't filed soon enough, perhaps to make sure that the way the system currently runs (with no proof to back up voters choices) would stay in place, and thereby ensuring that this election in PA could be rigged without anyone knowing the wiser. By the way, I spent a few hours researching this diary. It was not a cut and paste job, and apparently has not been given the kind of attention that it obviously needs.

      I do not think that Mark Aronchick statement regarding the "ample resources" or Whatever it takes, means shit from shinola. Pennsylvania has had plenty of time to fix this problem, and they haven't done so. Wonder why?

      'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Noah Cross, Chinatown

      by Badabing on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:10:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Do they have a right to request (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry, la urracca, Badabing

    Do voters have a right to request a paper ballot?  They do in some states. I would never vote on electronic voting machines. Never.

  •  Exit polls will mean everything. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    la urracca, madgranny, Badabing

    Who will be conducting them?

    Our side, I hope. Otherwise, you know they'll steal it. The GOP's will do it for Hillary because they'd rather face her.

    How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

    by rhetoricus on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:13:22 PM PDT

    •  exit polls have been way way off this year (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      revgerry, rontun

      as always.  The Ohio exit polls showed a tie, as they did in New Jersey and Massachusetts and Arizona.  Or it's the vote counts that are way off.

      •  Yeah, remember New Hampshire? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        rontun

        All the exit polls were way way off, and everyone thought Obama would win big.  

        'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Noah Cross, Chinatown

        by Badabing on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:40:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Precisely. Then again... (0+ / 0-)

          the exit polls have been off the other direction too.  The exit polls for Louisiana and Delaware, for instance showed a much smaller victory for Obama than actually existed.  Same with Missouri and Wisconsin, but to a smaller extent in those states.

          But in the vast majority of cases, the shift was hugely for Clinton in regard to exit polls versus results.

          •  Exit polls are the most accurate measure (0+ / 0-)

            ..of a vote. It's why we use them to monitor other countries.

            The only thing i could think wuld throw them off is lying GOP voters or dirty exit pollsters.

            How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

            by rhetoricus on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:57:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you've been misinformed (0+ / 0-)

              There's no evidence that exit polls are especially accurate, and plenty that they aren't. (Nor is it really true that "we" use them to monitor other elections.)

              All sorts of things can throw exit polls off. Maybe supporters of the various candidates will be equally willing (on average) to fill out a questionnaire; maybe they won't.

              •  My, you sound like (0+ / 0-)

                the 2004 Republicans in FL and OH.

                Pssst. They don't fill out a questionnaire. They just tell the pollsters who they voted for.

                How we know Daffy Duck is Republican: "It's mine, understand? Mine, all mine! Get back down there! Down down down! Go go go! Mine mine mine! Mwahahaha!" --BiPM

                by rhetoricus on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 05:22:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  and you "know" this how?! (0+ / 0-)

                  This is laughable. Haven't you ever looked at one of these? Do you seriously think that works by people "just tell[ing] the pollsters who they voted for"?

                  For that matter, how well do you think it would work if the interviewers just asked people who they voted for, instead of giving them an anonymous questionnaire?

                  And if all that is too indirect and subtle, what is this?

                  Maybe you should lay off the innuendo and focus on getting a clue.

  •  URGENT! This is incredibly important! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    la urracca, Badabing

    http://blackboxvoting.org

    http://www.HackingDemocracy.com

    http://www.bradblog.com

    Is there no system in place yet to verify the votes?  Especially you need to look at the precinct by precinct totals because it is likely that instead of the huge black holes that are obvious, a little here and a little there is a more useful dirty trick.

    CAN THE CAMPAIGN HAVE OVERLOOKED THIS?  Oh, please say it isn't so.

    Urgently, please contact Bev Harris  here.  crew@blackboxvoting.org

  •  I have never understood WHY this is not (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry, Badabing, ppl can fly

    a more urgebt issue on DKos...
    or an issue at all.
    There is ample evidence to show these machince are SO EASILY manipulated...
    and almost certainly have been.

  •  Please rec this up!!! n/t (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Badabing, ppl can fly
  •  Voting machines - and Ed Rendell - (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry

    are problems, but I heard that Clinton plans to air the "Obama's father is a communist" sink on Monday.  Of course SHE won't throw it.  An unknown source will do the dirty deed.

    Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

    by madgranny on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:34:05 PM PDT

  •  What about early voting... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry

    ...or absentee ballots?

    What's going on with them, I know that the Obama campaign is very big on pushing this with supporters....

    The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

    by LordMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:40:13 PM PDT

  •  post this in the open threads, people! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry

    rec it up! We've had enough attention spent on flag pins already!

    I can haz sound economic policy?

    by Isara on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:51:20 PM PDT

  •  There is a tiny silver lining: (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry

    Casey crushed Santorum in 2006 and that result was very much in line with the exit polls.  So that would be a good thing.

    :)

  •  CAN ANYONE GET THIS TO THE OBAMA... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    revgerry

    ...CAMPAIGN?

    Sorry for the caps... they need to be prepared!

    The United States of America--the only country in the world where being educated and cultured actually *lowers* your social and political standing.

    by LordMike on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:57:05 PM PDT

    •  He knows the score... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      revgerry, Badabing

      he came out of the 'machine'. Why do you think he didn't put out any Street Money? It's a must in Philly, reason he didn't:  wouldn't have done any good, fix was in. He went straight to the people, via air-waves, town halls, he did the best he could. If he keeps it to single-digits...it's over!

    •  They will be. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LordMike, revgerry, Badabing

      The Obama campaign is remarkably prepared for this kind of thing.  There will be poll watchers in every precinct, and attorneys on hand to challenge any skullduggery. The campaign was quite effective in Ohio and Texas.

      Since the 2000 and 2004 debacles Democratic candidates have wised up to the shenanigans, and although it probably isn't possible to prevent all voter theft, it's much more difficult to pull off.

      Don't underestimate Obama's campaign. And if you live in Pennsylvania, offer to volunteer to help man the polls.

      "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." JFK - January 20, 1961

      by rontun on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 11:06:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If you live in PA (0+ / 0-)

    It might be safer to just help the man with the polls. You'll recognize him! :-o

  •  Nice links to your sources. Not. n/t (0+ / 0-)

  •  What I find troubling ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    HudsonValleyMark

    ... is that somehow the only campaign that might cheat would be the Clinton campaign. Is it not possible for the Obama campaign to cheat - considering that those machines are "so easy" to manipulate?

    Just like when it came to the 2004/2006 elections there was concern that the republicans would cheat but somehow democrats wouldn't. Why wouldn't there be concern that the democrats would cheat by manipulating the machines. Obviously this diary and the comments insinuate that one of the democrats might cheat in the primary, so why wouldn't democrats cheat in a general election.

    And that is what I find so mind-boggling about these kinds of diaries. The implied good side and the implied bad side. It is maddening. If it is so easy then anyone can cheat. ANYONE.

    It is what relegates these diaries to the conspiracy realm. How many people would have to risk federal prison to make this election fraud work? If one gets caught, believe me if others are involved they will sing and sing loudly in the grand jury room. And what if someone talks? Gets drunk and blabs? Gets arrogant, cocky, whatever and blabs?  What if someone gets in real trouble - perhaps gets caught taking a bribe or steering contracts for instance - and now has something to trade to the prosecutors?

    Now, lets say Obama ends up winning Pennsylvania (now you would have Clinton supporters claiming something was rigged) and goes on as the nominee and loses the state to McCain in the general election. Then what? The republicans rigged the machines? Did they ask the Clinton campaign if they could borrow their rigging tools?  

    There will be enough shenanigans going on - as there are virtually anywhere in the country - that will have nothing to do with voting machines. And not just by one side either.

    Now, if the issue was simply that election laws and equipment in Pennsylvania need to change then that would be something worth pushing. Personally - as I have opined in the distant past - I believe that all votes should be on paper and counted by hand. Counted more than once in the same precinct by separate counters and then counted again by swapping precincts across the state randomly. That would take days. But we live in a society of instant this and instant that. People want the result before they go to bed.

    But to lay out the issue of the machines and make insinuations ... well ... that is just troubling.

    •  Yes Mind it is troubling because its happened in (0+ / 0-)

      Pennsylvania many times, the last time it happened was in 2004. The point of this diary was to point out that there is no paper trail, no way whatsoever to even prove if the electronic voting machines have been hacked into, which according to many experts, they can.

      Eddie Rendell is in charge of these voting machines. He is the Governor of PA and he has done nothing to ensure that the voting process has a back up system whereby voters have a fall back system to prove that the voting was on the up and up. PA is a highly contested race, and very important to this election. Governor Rendell is a Hilary Clinton supporter.

      This would not be the first time in our country that people are concerned about election fraud. Do I trust Hilary Clinton, no I don't. Do I trust Eddie Rendell, no I don't.  

      duncansc also wrote a diary today entitled: Stolen Elections, Broken Dreams.

      We need to be aware that anything could happen in this election, as HRC has proven over and over again, that she will stop at nothing to win the White House. Nothing.

      'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough. Noah Cross, Chinatown

      by Badabing on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:47:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My point was and still is (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        HudsonValleyMark

        Why would you think that only one side in the election is capable of cheating? You don't think that there are Obama supporters out there that would be capable of cheating?

        You could have simply went about detailing the issue of the voting machines without making insinuations that one (and only one) of the candidates is likely to cheat. You can't base that on any facts - as there are none - so why do it all?

        I am not a Clinton supporter (so you know) but I can't (though I should) just let these rigged electronic voting diaries go by without bringing out that ANYONE is capable of cheating and that includes whoever your candidate may be. If you had said in your diary Clinton could cheat but then again so could Obama because the votes can't be verified I wouldn't have an issue. But to treat things like the old western movies where the good guy always wore the white hat and the bad guy always wore the black hat is simply absurd.

        Can you at least acknowledge that because the voting can't be verified and that because it is easy to rig the machines that the Obama campaign is also capable of cheating?

        btw I was a resident of Pennsylvania for over 30 years. I know a thing or two about the state.

      •  how is Rendell "in charge of" the machines? (0+ / 0-)

        As a matter of law, that's not how it works. Now, maybe you know that Rendell is the law in PA. I'm open to evidence.

  •  You need to understand... (0+ / 0-)

    how 'machine' politics work. If you saw the movie 'Gangs of New York' it would give you a glimpse into this world. It's a top down org. that gives everyone involved a "taste". A Boss has the strings and he tugs them to get what he wants. One of these strings is control of the ballot, a must, if everything is to go in the right direction. Rendell has that string and he ain't letting go! And there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it. Barack knows this, he's a product of the Cook county 'machine'. He would not be in the senate if it wasn't pre-approved. All very sordid, all very corrupt.

  •  We need some Luddites with hammers (0+ / 0-)

    If a first wave of voters went all Luddite on those machines, they would be forced to take a paper vote - voila - instant verification.

    You must be the change you want to see in the world. - Mahatma Gandhi

    by fetalposition on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:46:31 AM PDT

  •  People should feel confident th'r vote is counted (0+ / 0-)

    What I mean is that everyone who votes has to be SURE that his/her vote is properly counted, and feel confidence in his electoral process. Electoral fraud is vey hard to prove, and the term should not be used lightly. But eveyone should agree that the voter must be sure that his vote is properly counted. In Spain, paper ballots are counted one by one by the "mesa" of each electoral subdistrict. The three "mesa" members are citizens called for "election duty" - like jury duty. And representatives from the political parties are presented as votes are manually counted. Then the official results from the subdistrict are added on to those from other Mesas in the same building, with official results sheets singned by all present. These are sent in to the Ministry of the Interior. And, with the official results sheets from each Mesa in the hands of representatives from the politcal parties, they count the votes on their ouwn to make sure the official results are correct. How long does the process of getting official results take? About two hours after closing the polls. The political parties that find discrepancies have several days to check out the numbers, and if errors are found, corrections are made. So people feel confident that their vote is properly counted.

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