Daily Kos

Will Clinton Be a Help or a Drag in the General Election?

Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:48:56 AM PDT

No matter what happens in PA, the nomination of Obama as the Democratic nominee seems likely in the end. Most Democrats would like a quick end to the acrimonious Primary campaign. A united Party with Clinton and Obama working together to defeat McCain is the dream of many activists as well as rank and file democrats.

The Dream Ticket looks very unlikely now. We can at least hope for a photo-op  with the two contenders smiling and hugging. What, after that?  There is reason to believe that Sen. Clinton is at least as likely to be a drag on the Democraric GE campaign as an asset. Sure, she has a little less than half of the Democratic Party supporting her. According to polls, 80% of them will continue to support the eventual Democratic nominee, even if it is not Sen. Clinton. The remaining 20%, which is 3 to 5% of the total electorate, says they  will not vote for Obama. This is within the margin of error of most National Polls.

To be fair a similar percentage of Obama supporters say the same about Sen. Clinton. But since Clinton is  unlikely to be the nominee, we won't analyze it further.

Even the 3-5% is likely to be en exaggerated number, born of the frustrations of her once  inevitable candidacy foundering. Still, let us take this number at face value and see what that implies. Let us even assume that all of this 5% will vote for Obama if  Clinton supports him. The question is thus, will we gain more  than 5% by ditching Sen. Clinton ?

What are  disadvantages of having Sen. Clinton play a large role in the Democratic General Election? The largest role will be as the VP candidate right on the ticket with Obama. A smaller role will be as the keynote speaker and campaign surrogate touring the country in her own airplane with reporters in tow. With an occasional joint appearance with Obama at key regions of the country.

First, her presence  will energize the virulent anti-Clinton base within the Republican Party. Right now they are rooting for her as she is the easier candidate to beat. If she in fact a strong presence in the campaign, especially as the VP nominee, McCain will have no trouble uniting the conservative base to his cause. Rush Limbaugh and his cohorts will let out a whoop of joy and go to work against her instead trying to sneak into the Democratic Primaries to vote for her as they do now. This ought to be worth at least 5% all by itself.

Second, there is a large percentage of moderates who just totally despise Sen. Clinton. If 60% of Democrats even think she cannot be trusted, you can imagine what moderates and independents think of her. The blowout victories Obama scored were in open contests. The Clinton even tried to spin it against Obama, that he is somehow being propelled by the independents rather than traditional moderates. It is hard to estimate a percentage of the electorate here, but it is not hard to imagine that 5% of the electorate falls in this category.

Thus Party unity, as nice as it sounds, comes with a price. Let is call it the Clinton drag.

What are the advantages of not ditching Sen. Clinton? Sen. Clinton brings nothing to the plate in terms of new voters. The younger the demographics, the less popular she becomes. She can bring in a group of organziers and activists. But frankly, do we need the idiots who have run her campaign right into the ground, starting with every advantage imaginable? Our own operatives have proved far more nimble and have run circles around them.

She used to have a large donor base back when she was thought of as inevitable, but many of them will abandon her as soon as she loses. You can already see her former supporters scrambling to leave the ship, despite phone calls from Bill and Chelsea asking "Why,  Why?" . Still Sen. Clinton will argue that she can be great help in fundraising, especially in Hollywood and Wall Street.

A politician is beholden to the people who donate money to him or her. This is just a simple fact of humn nature. No amount of posturing can hide the fact. The best situation is for a campaign to be funded by a large number or small donors spread throughout the country, so that no group can control the outcome. This is the ideal that public financing and campaign finance reform was supposed to achieve. Obama has truly achieved that goalnow, in a way that would have been unimaginable before the internet revolution.

Obama should announce a boycott of Democratic fatcats, such as the ones that tried to Pressure Speaker Pelosi to combine with his boycott of Corporate PACs and Federal Lobbyists. Each dollar  he loses by that will be gained many times over from a horde of small donors who will feel empowered. It will also free him of the last hold that the Clintons will have on him as a nominee.  

Sen. Clinton will be a constant drag on the campaign also in terms of news coverage. She will be to the Obama campaign what Bill Clinton is to hers now: a distraction, a  loose cannon. Better to encourage a dignified retreat to Chappaqua after a pro-forma show of unity at the convention.

So what can Sen. Clinton do for Obama? It seems to me  very little.  Other than just going   away for a few months till November.  She just is not worth the 5% she brings in. What am I missing here?

Poll

What is the net effect of Sen. Clinton on an Obama GE campaign?

47%57 votes
10%13 votes
20%24 votes
7%9 votes
13%16 votes

| 119 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, General Election, 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 112 comments

  •  HIllary on the campaign trail. (7+ / 0-)

    Yeah.  That ain't gonna happen.  They'll hug at the convention, she'll encourage her supporters to unify.  And then we won't hear much from her throughout the campaign.  

    The Clintons are notoriously stingy with time and money in any race that doesn't involve them.  They have nothing to give you if you haven't properly genuflected to them in all things they deem important.  

    So we won't see much of the Clintons on the campaign trail.  They might even pull some Lieberman-esque swipes.  Although I see Bill wanting to rehabilitate his legacy after this dirty campaign.  

    •  It may not be too bad if they just disappear. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      peteri2, esquimaux, allep10, Alohilani

      At this point, even half the Democrats are sick of them.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:56:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  More like the campaign trail of tears (0+ / 0-)

      She would certainly be a drag.  The only thing she needs to say is:  This (pointing at Obama) is our guy.  He must be the next president.  

      And then she needs to step into the darkness and stay there.  Hope she wins the primary for reelction in 2012.

      "I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear, that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States..."

      by dlh77489 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:36:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She could lose a Primary in NY (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dlh77489, sistermoon, Alohilani

        But she would be hard to beat in the GE for Senate in NT as she will  join with the Republicans, as Liebermann did.

        Then again the Republican Party is on the wane in NY. She is not unbeatable. Just takes the right opponent with grassroots campaigning skills. A mini-Obama.

        McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

        by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:41:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I Think She Could Help Behind The Scenes (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    allep10, kiki236

    but not as a vocal, public figure. All the media would do is run a tape on a loop of her saying Obama wasn't really to be president. And those are images we don't need replayed again and again.

    Let us not forget New Orleans. Visit Project Katrina.

    by webranding on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:56:20 AM PDT

  •  I completely disagree (4+ / 0-)

    We absolutely need Senator Clinton's many loyal followers to sign on and support Obama or we don't get to the White House. Simple as that. No party unity equals 4 more years of this nightmare.

    "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

    by Bouwerie Boy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:58:05 AM PDT

    •  80% of supporters say they will vote for Obama (0+ / 0-)

      So is she worth the negatives she will bring? Remember 20% of Clinton supporters is less than 5% of the total electorate.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:00:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes she is. This election is quite (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        yazilikaya

        likely to much closer than many here realize. That 20% will be urgently needed come Novemeber.

        "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

        by Bouwerie Boy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:09:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  20% of her support is less than 5% of electorate (0+ / 0-)

          in the GE. It is within the margin of error of most National Polls therefore.

          McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

          by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:30:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ha! As I recall it was (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            haremoor

            just a few thousand dimwitted Democrats, who voted for Nader in 2000, which brought about this 8 year catastrophe. We need every vote to win.

            "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

            by Bouwerie Boy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:36:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We are much stronger now than in 2000. (0+ / 0-)

              Her die hard support is within the margin of error.

              The question is will we lose more by courting her supporters than what we gain? I think on balance Clinton is a drag.

              McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

              by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:42:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't want to belabor this. (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Ahianne, Paul Newell, yazilikaya, haremoor

                Alienate Clinton supporters at your peril. There is a dynamic at work in this campaign that I don't believe we can yet fully understand and which makes this particular political season highly unpredictable.  It is not worth the risk to blow these people off.

                "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

                by Bouwerie Boy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:51:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  3 to 5% is not much to bargain with in Politics (0+ / 0-)

                  Within the margin of error.

                  McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                  by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:04:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Why does this calculation only go one way? (0+ / 0-)

                  Clinton supporters often say that Obama is going to need them in the general election, so we shouldn't diss them. But that doesn't seem to stop Clinton dissing Obama and his supporters. If she gets the nomination, after all, she's going to need us. Baffling logic.

                •  It's not so much (0+ / 0-)

                  'blowing these people off'.  No one is shutting them out.  The real question is do they want to come on board?  If they choose to go against their own best interests, that can't be stopped.  

                  Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

                  by Alohilani on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I will alienate whomever I dangwell please (0+ / 0-)

                  and I am not in any peril at all.
                  Anybody who is stupid enough to fail to vote against
                  John McCain in November never had any business being
                  here in the first place .   And my calling you
                  stupid is the least of the things you are going to
                  have to worry abuot, if you really are that stupid.
                  Insults online from someone you have never met frankly
                  pale in comparison to conservative rulings from the
                  Supreme Court (in terms of their ability to damage
                  your life).

                  In my opinion one important reason why so many
                  people are voting against their interests (or failing
                  to vote for them) is that they have not yet been
                  confronted with a clear explanation of just how STUPID
                  such behavior really is.

                  "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

                  by ge0rge on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:01:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  and the last two elections (0+ / 0-)

            were decided by 3% or less

    •  I don't think... (4+ / 0-)

      ... Clinton supporters are going to be waiting for Hillary's permission to vote for Barack.

      Most of them are much more loyal Democrats than she herself.

      •  I've been a political junkie (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ahianne, droogie6655321

        for most of my life and I can tell you that there is a nasty hostility between Democrats this year that I have not witnessed since the late 1960s. If we can't or won't find a way to make peace between ourselves then expect the worst in November.

        "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

        by Bouwerie Boy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:58:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not necessarily. The nastiness is with the older (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          droogie6655321, allep10

          crowd that skews towards Clinton anyway. Their departure wont be so terrible. They will be replaced by young idealists who will take the Party forward.

          In politics you have to make choices. Build a Bridge back to the Twentieth Century or go forward? Clinton is the past. Dean and Obama are building the future.

          McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

          by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:02:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oy. In politics you want to build (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Ahianne, Paul Newell

            coalitions. That older crowd actually votes. It is still to be determined if those young idealists will. The result in PA should offer a good indicator of that. If she wins by say, less than 9%, you may be right about the newbie crowd. If she wins by over 12%-13% then you better start making plans to court those back to the twentieth century types.

            "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

            by Bouwerie Boy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:12:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In Politics you need to stand for something. (0+ / 0-)

              Not just about winning elections. PA is just one state. There are fifty states. Starting with a 25 point advantage and winning by 15% means you are losing ground.

              BTW in the interests of full disclosure, are you a DLC observer here like The Third Way?

              McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

              by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:15:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  We'll be fine (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Ahianne, organicdemocrat, allep10

          In November, it'll be More of the Same vs. Once in a Lifetime. Everyone will be able to see that. I'm hesitant to say "landslide," but there's definitely that potential.

      •  Yes, Yes, Yes (0+ / 0-)

        She is selling them out. She will take the Zell Miller Liebermann route out of the Party eventually. I predict in 2012, when she loses the NY Primary for her Senate Seat. And we should help her leave.

        McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

        by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:03:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think Clinton would help (0+ / 0-)

      If she was on board, the anti-Obama crowd would have to contort and make themselves look even more ridiculous come up with reason not to support him.

  •  Commentators Seem to Feel the Typical Result (5+ / 0-)

    is the loser endorses and does a little easy work here & there, otherwise not much.

    We haven't seen the Clintons' behavior as losers on the national stage but considering the emotion of it all, I wouldn't be surprised if she and her allies weren't particularly energetic.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 09:58:53 AM PDT

    •  That may be the best.We don't want them energized (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alohilani, Gator1980

      We want them to just go away and not be a distraction.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:01:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ahianne

        First of all, Hillary and Bill are political animals.  They will have to rehabilitate her image after getting beat, so I think at least she jumps on the bandwagon for Obama with both feet.
           One speech from her could give all of her ardent supporters cover to support Obama, and a reason to do so.  It will be a very important moment in the campaign, and Obama needs it.
            She has shown in the past that she can at least fake it, and it will be important for her to do, if she ever wants to win an election again.

        Obama needs every vote, every boost, every bump he can get.  Don't forget who he's running against - McCaincient, of course, but also Karl Rove, Ken Mehlmann, the MSM, and the RNC.  It's going to be a bloody election, with echo chambers and smears and October surprises galore.

        Auntie Em: Hate you. Hate Kansas. Taking the dog. Dorothy

        by haremoor on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:01:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hillary is not worth the 3 to 5% she brings (0+ / 0-)

          that Obama does not have already. She will alienate many more people than she brings. If she wants to give a speech at the convention, take a few pictures and retreat for a nice summer and fall in Chappaqua, fine.

          She  is not worth the baggage se brings. Sorry, just speaking plainly.

          McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

          by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:07:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We lost the last two presidential elections (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Ahianne, kingfishstew

            By less than 1%.  Her active support in states such as PA, OH, FL, and MI could make the diference between President McCain and President Obama.  I'll take her 3-5% gladly.

            Auntie Em: Hate you. Hate Kansas. Taking the dog. Dorothy

            by haremoor on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:16:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We lost because we tried to run by DLC rules (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Alohilani

              We need to run as Democrats, not apologetically but confidently.

              If she wants to campaign in the Appalachia (in MI Obama is leading. FL is not a place where she is a net positive) with some dignity, fine. We will rent her a bus. Other than that we have no use for her.

              McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

              by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:19:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Top of the Ticket Decides Policies (0+ / 0-)

                The bottom just needs to be able to due the job if the top dies, and bring some support come poll day. Clinton fits that role perfectly. And it would behoove us not to get so worked up in a slober about her as to cut our noses off to spite our faces.

                That's supposed to be Clinton supporter's specialty.

  •  To quote the Wizard of Oz... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    organicdemocrat, Alohilani

    Not no way, not no how.  (Of course, Dorothy did get past the doorkeeper...I don't think there's anyway that Hillary will.)

    She comes with enough baggage to require a safari staff.  The repubs are chortling with glee at the aspect of facing her at any level.  She would be toxic to Obama in the general.  All the cross over Repubs? Fuhgettaboutit.

    "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

    by mayan on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:03:53 AM PDT

  •  What about Bill? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ahianne

    I wonder if he would be on the campaign trail for Obama? His role, is a little different of course, he is a former president, and one would expect him to campaign for the party nominee, but who knows. I dont think Hillary would be a drag as a surrogate. We will need her supporters, so sending her to certain places(if she is willing), to campaign for Obama would be fine.

    •  Bill would have to be tightly supervised. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      crystalboy, Alohilani

      Frankly I am not convinced that former Presidents do much good in Politics. Bill's best work has been with his foundation, raising money for many causes like Tsunami relief. He ought to stick to that and Golf. He has not been much help to Hillary so far, so how is he going to help Obama?

      At least he can stay out of the Middle East, where  Carter is. Hillary in my opinion will hurt in most places. Maybe the Appalachia (parts of OH,PA,KY..) is an exception.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:13:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  She had better be actively campaigning for Obama (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ahianne, organicdemocrat

    or her political life is on the line.

    She and her husband have done a great deal of damage to their reputations, and I don't think her political life can withstand her turning her back on the nominee.

    I hope the people of NY realize they can do a whole lot better.

    •  Her campaigning may not help Obama (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alohilani

      She is so toxic right now that the best she can do may be to just go away after a proforma show of unity.

      Her supporters will come around without her around to constantly inflame them.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:10:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      crystalboy

      to this:

      Her supporters will come around without her around to constantly inflame them.

      and yes we do, to this:

      I hope the people of NY realize they can do a whole lot better.

      Here in New York, her support is not as monolithic as the chattering hog monkeys in the MSM would like everyone to believe.  

      Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

      by Alohilani on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:34:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am in NY state too. How can we organize (0+ / 0-)

        against Clinton? I checked that the whole party machinery signed up with her early on. Bet many of them are looking to switch now.

        A grassroots effort against Clinton is needed in NY. Upstate NY is devastated after 20 years of Bush-Clinton-Bush.

        McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

        by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:42:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We'll have to organize... (0+ / 0-)

          after the GE.  But, it will be done, make no mistake about it.  There is a palpable feel of buyer's remorse here towards Clinton here.

          Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

          by Alohilani on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:00:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  she brings in women (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kiki236, Alohilani

    and that cant be underestimated.

    I dont know how to respond in your poll, because she's been so negative in her attacks that I see no way she can credibly tout him in the GE.

    I also think she absolutely despises and thinks very little of Obama so not sure how heartfelt she can be in supporting him.

    If she can somehow pull it off, she'd be a great asset, but I just don't see how she does it credibly or enthusiastically.

    •  Actually her appeal is more age based than gender (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      droogie6655321, Alohilani

      based. Younger women, like younger men,  skew in favor of Obama.

      On balance I don't think Hillary is an asset.Obama might even gain by having a "Sister Souljah" moment after the convention to differentiate himself publicly from her.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:16:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Her talent is not supporting (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      crystalboy, Alohilani

      But undermining.  

      You're right I think its hard to see how she could be taken seriously actively supporting Obama at this point.

      But I could see her being effective in undermining McCain and playing dirty "old politics" that lets Obama stay positive.

      Its a question of where she wants to throw the mud -- we know she knows how.

      Mommy always told me there were no real monsters, but there are -- Newt.

      by fearisthemindkiller on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:55:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What has been said cannot be (3+ / 0-)

    unsaid.

  •  Tell Hillary to go home and to STFU (4+ / 0-)

    Obama has plenty of smart, able, influential, sane, real Democratic women supporting him who will draw in women votes.  McCaskill, Sebelius, Napolitano, Naomi Wolf, Barbara Lee, Christine Gregoire, Caroline Kennedy, Oprah, Maria Shriver, Barbara Ehrenriech, Stephanie Miller, Randi Rhodes, and on and on.  The Clintons are one vile pox on the Democratic party.

    Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberston, those boys can kiss my ass. Both cheeks. - Bruce Springsteen

    by Corneliusmingus on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:17:01 AM PDT

  •  Is a "dignified retreat to Chappaqua" likely? (0+ / 0-)

    It would take pepper spray to make her stay away.

    "It does not require many words to speak the truth." -- Chief Joseph, native American leader (1840-1904)

    by highfive on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:31:51 AM PDT

    •  If she realizes her career is at stake she will (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      highfive, Alohilani

      retreat to Chappaqua. If she continues to be a nuisance, there will be a Primary challenge to her Senate seat in 2006. Once the Senate is safely in Democratic hands after 2008, she might get sidelined in the Senate.

      She seems to like being on the Armed Services Committee.  If she pisses off the Democratic Base like she is doing now, she might lose that. We just have to look for where she is vulnerable politically.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:35:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If She disappears (0+ / 0-)

    Obama will be like Gote without Gore's record or experience.  Don't repeat bad history.  Use the Clintons.  

    •  He is like Gore with charisma and strategy. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alohilani

      And remember, Gore won the election except for one vote in the Supreme Court.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:38:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Obama can't depend on charisma and happy talk (0+ / 0-)

        People are going to try to define him as a standard issue liberal, and he's going to have to counter that.

        The days of Obama being above politics are over.  Long ago.

        •  "People" are not going to. Hillary and her allies (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          droogie6655321, Alohilani

          in the Republican Party are doing that. The counter is not to play nice with Hillary but to attack her, defeat her and sideline her.  

          That is what we are in the process of doing. The more she attacks Obama the harder she will fall.

          McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

          by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:44:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Look if the attacks (0+ / 0-)

            Didn't come from Hillary, they would have come from Republicans.  In my opinion, he did not handle the attacks well.  If he hems and haws with his answers like he did in the ABC debate, he will lose the general election.

            He's gotta find better answeers to the questions that were raised.

            •  Why don't you mug me in my living room? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              kingfishstew, Alohilani

              Because  your friends would mug me anyway in the streets?

              That is a good reason I don't want you in my living room.  Go back to your bosses in the Republican Party. Tell them its a new politics in town.

              McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

              by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:09:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think that many people... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          droogie6655321

          would be too adverse to the liberal label, after 7 years of Gee Whiz.

          Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

          by Alohilani on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:51:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Third Way is DLC, a Republican Front (0+ / 0-)

            These are the guys that gave us Zell Miller and Joe Liebermann.
            Why should we listen to them for campaign advice?

            DLC=Democratic Loser's Council.

            Are you taking notes?

            McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

            by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:54:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's ironic Organic (0+ / 0-)

              The only Democratic President since 1980 was Bill Clinton, DLC moderate.  How many liberals ran and lost before and since?  McGovern, liberal, lost.  Mondale liberal, lost. Dukakis, liberal, lost. Kerry liberal lost.  Are you taking notes?

              Keep sloganeering!

              •  That's the past, Mr. Third Way. (0+ / 0-)

                Back in the days of the Reagan revolution and its aftermath we were covering in the shadows. Now that wave has crested and the Republican machine  is faling apart.  You are not scaring us with the Big Bad Republican Wolf anymore. We know the Wolf is weak and running scared.

                82% think the country is going in the wrong direction.

                McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:25:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  After Watergate... (0+ / 0-)

                  Carter barely won, and he was a moderate.  If Obama runs as a pure liberal, he will lose.  That's why he's hedging on gun control, capital punishment, and parental notification.

                  He believes in nuclear power,clean coal and a market based health care plan.  Hardly liberal.

                  •  We dont listen to opponents for campaign advise (0+ / 0-)

                    Thanks anyway though.

                    McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                    by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:39:34 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No Answer to Obama's stands (0+ / 0-)

                      on these issues Organic?  I see.

                      •  Read Again. Slowly. (0+ / 0-)

                        The DLC gave strong support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Prior to the war, Will Marshall co-signed a letter to President Bush from the Project for the New American Century endorsing military action against Saddam Hussein. During the 2004 Primary campaign the DLC attacked Presidential candidate Howard Dean as an out-of-touch liberal because of Dean's anti-war stance. The DLC dismissed other critics of the Iraq invasion such as filmmaker Michael Moore as members of the "loony left". Even as domestic support for the Iraq War plummeted in 2004 and 2005, Marshall reprised his right-wing credentials and called upon Democrats to balance their criticism of Bush's handling of the Iraq War with praise for the President's achievements and cautioned "Democrats need to be choosier about the political company they keep, distancing themselves from the pacifist and anti-American fringe."

                        Who  looks looney now, dude? Praise for the President's achievements?? What the F*ck are they? Is that why 82% of the country thinks we are going in the wrong direction?

                        McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                        by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:45:28 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Dean couldn't win a primary (0+ / 0-)

                          other than his home state and DC.  So don't blame me for Dean's incompetance.

                          You seem like a single issue candidate.  I hope you are not too disappointed when in 16 months from 2009 Obama is president, and US troops are in Iraq.  Obama doesn't want a humanitarian bloodbath on his hands.  He will have to leave some troops there for some period of time.  Sorry to disappoint you.

                          You still have not answered why Obama is moderating his stands on the issues I mentioned.

                          •  Got war? Iraq. (0+ / 0-)

                            McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                            by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:58:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We don't take this kind of idiotic advice anymore (0+ / 0-)

                            Even as domestic support for the Iraq War plummeted in 2004 and 2005, Marshall reprised his right-wing credentials and called upon Democrats to balance their criticism of Bush's handling of the Iraq War with praise for the President's achievements and cautioned "Democrats need to be choosier about the political company they keep, distancing themselves from the pacifist and anti-American fringe."

                            Marshall was writing for  DLC.

                            Dean created a movement that in its second iteration is winning lots of primaries. It will continue even after Obama, whether he wins the presidency or not. It is not about any one person.

                            McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                            by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:01:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

        •  He isn't winning... (0+ / 0-)

          ... this primary because of "happy talk." But then again you already know this, and are only here to spread your miserable defeatist talking points.

          •  The Third Way is a DLC plant. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            droogie6655321

            Here is what I told him the last time he took issue with me.

            No more meeting the Republicans half way in the Third Way.
            No more Payola for Ward Bosses.
            No more saying one thing in Muncie,IN and another in SF.YouTube will get you.
            No more building a bridge back to the 20th Century.
            DLC is the remnant of the Dixiecrats in the Democratic Party. Those that didn't bolt for the Republican Party. Zel Miller was DLC before he quit.
            Dean and Pelosi won Congress back. Clinton lost Congress in 1994.
            If you think twenty years of Bush-Clinton-Bush haven't made people bitter YOU are the one out of touch.
            The First Way (Republcianism) has collapsed. We don't need a Third Way any more. That was the compromise of the 1990's. Its the 21st  Century. New Rules. New Politics.

            The time of Xerox machines, evening broadcast TV news, campaign contribution bundling by fatcats, consultants who charge $237000 a month are over. We organize differently now, we get our news in other ways and we raise money in small amounts bypassing your fatcats. Your time is up. Retire or join the Republican Party.

            The DLC gave strong support for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Prior to the war, Will Marshall co-signed a letter to President Bush from the Project for the New American Century endorsing military action against Saddam Hussein. During the 2004 Primary campaign the DLC attacked Presidential candidate Howard Dean as an out-of-touch liberal because of Dean's anti-war stance. The DLC dismissed other critics of the Iraq invasion such as filmmaker Michael Moore as members of the "loony left". Even as domestic support for the Iraq War plummeted in 2004 and 2005, Marshall reprised his right-wing credentials and called upon Democrats to balance their criticism of Bush's handling of the Iraq War with praise for the President's achievements and cautioned "Democrats need to be choosier about the political company they keep, distancing themselves from the pacifist and anti-American fringe."

            Who  looks looney now, dude? Praise for the President's achievements?? What the F*ck are they? Are they  what got him a 28% approval rating?

            The DLC is either group of really dumb individuals or is a front for the Republican Party. Either way, your Third Way is our way.

            This is our time. This is our way. If you don't like it come out for the Republicans openly and join Zel Miller/Liebermann. We will be stronger without you.

            McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

            by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:59:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I know he is (0+ / 0-)

              I've been going back and forth with him for several days. He's the walking, talking embodiment of everything I used to dislike about the party, but is now being graciously forgotten.

            •  Oraganic (0+ / 0-)

              A) There have been no liberal presidents since FDR.  Truman nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki and got us involved in Korea.  Kennedy wanted to overthow Castro using the CIA, and led a navel blockade to stop Russian missles from being shipped to Cuba.  Kennedy was a devoted anti-Communist.  LBJ was pretty liberal domiestically, but then Vietnam happened and liberals tossed him on his ear.  You know the rest, McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, Kerry lost!

              B) Obama is running away from that liberal label as fast as he can.  He believes in nuclear power and clean coal, and his health care plan is market based.  Hardly liberal.  He has shifted his positions on gun control, capital punishment, and parental notification to appear more moderate, and I don't blame him.

              C) Dixiecarts never had someone like Harold Ford in their ranks.  Dixiecrats were racists, like George Wallace.  Is Harold Ford an anti black bigot?  Don't throw labels around, please.  

              •  DLC is a bridge to the Republican Party (0+ / 0-)

                1. Harold Ford is like Colin Powell: a useful tool to be disposed of once he has been debased.

                B.) It is damn time we had a Liberal President. 1932 looks a lot like 2008. You want me to count the ways?

                Gamma.) Believing in Nuclear Power and Coal does not make one less of a liberal. Obama simply wants to look at every option, since oil will run out eventually. Knowing a bit of science does not contradict being an idealist.

                1. Did you  support the Iraq war? Or, when did you decide you were against it all the time.?

                McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:38:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  70% of america supported the Iraq war in 2003 (0+ / 0-)

                  What I supported was a second UN resolution and more inpections.  

                  If you were one of the few who didn't support the invasion, congratulations, you knew more than US and British intelligence combined.  Or you didn't care if Saddam had weapons of mass destruction or you are automatically opposed to anything Bush proposes.  I can't afford to be that glib.

                  Do you support the Afghan war?  Do you spport targetted strikes against Pakistan, as Obama does.

                  Glad to see clean coal and nnclear power are part of the liberal agenda.  Do you remember 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl?  Where's Obama going to dump the waste?  

                  Happy environmentalism.

                  •  Glib, no. (0+ / 0-)

                    Realist, yes.  Unlike Bush, I live outside the yes-man bubble that surrounds him.
                    Having said that, I most certainly agree with Sen. Obama on the issues on Afghanistan and Pakistan.  Bush should never have invaded Iraq.  And I for one, am glad that someone wants to talk to the Iranians.  Diplomacy would go a long way there.
                    And don't paint Obama with the liberal brush quite yet.  He is more centrist in his views than many would like, but that's alright.  Obama would at least consider other options and viewpoints about clean coal, and supports alternative energy, which is more (much more) than I could ever say about Neocon Hillary.
                    Give it up, the DLC faction is getting kicked out of the Democratic Party.  And it's high time, too.  

                    Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

                    by Alohilani on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:42:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Leadership is about making right decision when (0+ / 0-)

                    majority are wrong. That is why Obama is impressive. he mistakes were made when Congress had a 70% approval rating and the President even higher.

                    I don't have a vote in Congress, but I was opposed to Iraq and  for the  Afghan war. I thought the Afghan war would a quagmire but had to be fought anyway. Iraq was just personal revenge on the part of W. But I thought Iraq  would be easy.  Turned out both were quagmires.

                    It was obvious to me that the so called WMD evidence was made up. I am a scientist in real life, but with no access to military intelligence.

                    I totally support going to war in Pakistan now if thats what it takes to get bin Laden. I am no pacifist. Just against pointless wars. Stupid wars. I do think the terrorist threat is real and strong measures are needed against it.  Only Obama makes sense on this issue. It is not about left vs right or dove vs hawk. It is smart vs dumb.

                    Nuclear power is something to look at. I don't think of it as either conservative or liberal, just a technical matter. This is not the politically popular posture, but those of people who know the technical/scientific  aspects of nuclear energy.

                    It doesn't bother me that Obama is not as Liberal as me. He is the best right now, in the same way Clinton was the best in 1990's. You have to make choices in politics, not wait for the perfect match. If Obama had not come along I would be supporting Clinton in spite of her flaws.

                    Do you have an official role in the DLC or are you just a supporter?

                    McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

                    by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:09:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  She can help him, (0+ / 0-)

      under extremely controlled circumstances.  
      She can't be trusted on on her own.

      Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

      by Alohilani on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:41:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm hoping they'll... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alohilani

    ... drop off the radar altogether during the general. It would be the best choice for maintaining whatever shreds of respectibility they still have.

  •  2012 (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ahianne

    If she feels she has a shot in the 2012 Election she will be an active drag on the democrats this year because it strengthens her position 4 years from now.  

    The more interesting question is what if she calculates that her Presidential dream is over?  What does she do then?

    She wants to be President more than anything, but there is a very cold and calculated realism to her personality, I would not be surprised if she figures that she cannot win in the future for whatever reason (most likely age and having lost already) that we will see her adapt and change the way she participates in politics and public discourse.

    Mommy always told me there were no real monsters, but there are -- Newt.

    by fearisthemindkiller on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:51:13 AM PDT

    •  Oh, I'm quite sure (0+ / 0-)

      that she will be an active drag going into the GE.  That's the problem.

      Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

      by Alohilani on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:56:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  She is finished as a Democrat, except hang on to (0+ / 0-)

      her Senate Seat. Maybe. She may not realize that yet. The time to make her understand that is after the GE. Better make nice with her in public at the convention, then sideline her. And go to work organizing against her in NY State for a Primary challenge in 2012 for her Senate Seat.

      Liebermannize her in NY.

      But she should hear the anger against her so she doesn't harbor illusions about a Presidential run in 2012. That is the one advantage of the long Primary season.

      McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

      by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 10:58:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Im not sure (0+ / 0-)

        Where that anger will be in 4 years when she goes up for her seat again.  Its a long time away and thinking that today's wounds will still be sticking is not guaranteed.  We don't know what the context will be in the future and its impossible to predict her actions between now and then.  She has shown ability to adapt, and she does have strong bases of support that are not going anywhere.

        Mommy always told me there were no real monsters, but there are -- Newt.

        by fearisthemindkiller on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:03:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  She is following a long term strategy to go right (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          crystalboy

          Joined Right wing Prayer Group in Senate
          Voted for War
          Built connections to Murdoch and Scaiffe
          Starts talking about Gun Rights

          All part of a plan to go right wing. The primary is simply bringing it to the surface. It is not the Democrats abandoning her, she is using us to build her Right Wing sinecure.

          McCain goes through life looking backwards. Explains why he crashed five planes.

          by organicdemocrat on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 11:13:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  HRC is NO Joe Lieberman (0+ / 0-)

        "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

        by ge0rge on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 01:02:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Based on her (0+ / 0-)

    behavior and choices in how she has run her campaign, her choice of Mark Penn who enacts sleaze and spin wherever he goes- all over the world, and her absolute violation of party values, plus the tremendous loyalty and support the Clintons have had, without any real reciprocation to the nation,
    and above all, her abject lack of leadership and accountability- couldn't even read a vital document prior to voting "with conviction" for the war in Iraq, I hope the Clintons enjoy the millions they've bilked post NAFTA while millions of Americans don't have those lucky "dot-com" boom jobs, and our nation is increasingly tanking.

    I will not vote for her and I think we've had enough enmeshed politics.  She and Bill have cost the Democratic party so much and inflicted much harm on the nation because of their "larger than life" needs.  I am sick to death of her self-referential campaign memes.

    I hope someone challenges her in upstate New York . . .

  •  I know she is (0+ / 0-)

    short of funds for her primary, but doesn't she have mega-bucks left in her war chest for the GE?  I am looking for her to mount a 3d party campaign or to emerge as McCain's running mate.  Her rationale would be that the Democratic party has left her.  I just think her sense of her destiny is so deep that she can't be satisfied with going back to the Senate, especially given all the Senators who've backed BO.  Maybe once the primaries are over the party elite will approach her to find out what she wants in return for laying off a brokered convention.  Her sense of herself as the saviour of democracy and the comman man is too deep for her to end her ambition to obtain the presidency.  Too bad for US.

  •  MyDD has a GE poll about New York... (0+ / 0-)

    showing Obama losing it to McCain.
    That shows a lot more about the incompetence
    of the pollster than it shows about New York,
    but my point is, surely, she ought to be able
    to have a positive effect as a surrogate THERE,
    if it should be needed.  She will certainly not
    be Obama's choice for VP.

    "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

    by ge0rge on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 12:58:09 PM PDT

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