Daily Kos

Why Liberals Should Love The Second Amendment

Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:01:33 PM PDT

Liberals love the Constitution.

Ask anyone on the street.  They'll tell you the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is a liberal organization.

I know liberal couples who give each other pocket size copies of the Constitution for Christmas.

Ask liberals to list their top five complaints about the Bush Administration, and they will invariably say the words "shredding" and "Constitution" in the same sentence.  They might also add "Fourth Amendment" and "due process."  It's possible they'll talk about "free speech zones" and "habeus corpus."

There's a good chance they will mention, probably in combination with several FCC-prohibited adjectives, the former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

So.

Liberals love the Constitution.  They especially love the Bill of Rights.  They love all the Amendments.

Except for one: the Second Amendment.

When it comes to discussing the Second Amendment, liberals check at the door their ability to think rationally.  In discussing the importance of any other portion of the Bill of Rights, liberals can quote legal precedent, news reports, and exhaustive studies.  They can talk about the intentions of the Founding Fathers.  

And they will, almost without exception, conclude the necessity of respecting, and not restricting, civil liberties.

So why do liberals have such a problem with the Second Amendment?  Why do they lump all gun owners in the category of "gun nuts"?  Why do they complain about the "radical extremist agenda of the NRA"?  Why do they argue for greater restrictions?  

Why do they start performing mental gymnastics worthy of a position in Bush's Department of Justice to rationalize what they consider "reasonable" infringement of one of our most basic, fundamental, and revolutionary -- that's right, revolutionary -- civil liberties?

Why do they pursue these policies at the risk of alienating voters who might otherwise vote Democrat?  Why are they so dismissive of approximately 40% of American households that own one or more guns?

And why is their approach to the Second Amendment so different from their approach to all the others?

Well, if conversations on this blog about the issue of guns are in any way indicative of the way other liberals feel, maybe this stems from a basic misunderstanding.

So, allow me to attempt to explain the Second Amendment in a way that liberals should be able to endorse.

No. 1:  The Bill of Rights protects individual rights.

If you've read the Bill of Rights -- and who among us hasn't? -- you will notice a phrase that appears in nearly all of them:  "the people."

First Amendment:

...the right of the people peaceably to assemble

Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects...

Ninth Amendment:

...shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people

Tenth Amendment:  

...are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Certainly, no good liberal would argue that any of these rights are collective rights, and not individual rights.  We believe that the First Amendment is an individual right to criticize our government.

We would not condone a state-regulated news organization.  We certainly would not condone state regulation of religion.  We talk about "separation of church and state," although there is no mention of "separation of church and state" in the First Amendment.

But we know what they meant.  The anti-Federalists would not ratify the Constitution without a Bill of Rights; they intended for it to be interpreted expansively.  

We know the Founding Fathers intended for us to be able to say damn near anything we want, protest damn near anything we want, print damn near anything we want, and believe damn near anything we want.  Individually, without the interference or regulation of government.

So why, then, do liberals stumble at the idea of the Second Amendment as an individual right?  Why do they talk about it as a collective right, as if the Founding Fathers intended an entirely different meaning by the phrase "the right of the people" in the Second Amendment, when we are so positively clear about what they meant by the exact same phrase in the First Amendment?

If we can agree that the First Amendment protects not only powerful organizations such as the New York Times or MSNBC, but also the individual commenter on the internet, the individual at the anti-war rally, the individual driving the car with the "Fuck Bush" bumper sticker, can we not also agree that the Second Amendment's use of "the people" has the same meaning?

But it's different!  The Second Amendment is talking about the militia!  If you want to "bear arms," join the National Guard!  
Right?

Wrong.

The United States Militia Code:

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Aside from the fact that the National Guard did not exist in the 1700s, the term "militia" does not mean "National Guard," even today.  The code clearly states that two classes comprise the militia: the National Guard and Naval Militia, and everyone else.

Everyone else.  Individuals.  The People.  

No. 2: We oppose restrictions to our civil liberties.

All of our rights, even the ones enumerated in the Bill of Rights, are restricted.  You can't shout "Fire!" in a crowd.  You can't threaten to kill the president.  You can't publish someone else's words as your own.  We have copyright laws and libel laws and slander laws.  We have the FCC to regulate our radio and television content.  We have plenty of restrictions on our First Amendment rights.

But we don't like them.  We fight them.  Any card-carrying member of the ACLU will tell you that while we might agree that some restrictions are reasonable, we keep a close eye whenever anyone in government gets an itch to pass a new law that restricts our First Amendment rights.  Or our Fourth.  Or our Fifth, Sixth, or Eighth.  

We complain about free speech zones.  The whole country is supposed to be a free speech zone, after all.  It says so right in the First Amendment.

But when it comes to the Second Amendment...You could hear a pin drop for all the protest you'll get from liberals when politicians talk about further restrictions on the manufacture, sale, or possession of firearms.  

Suddenly, overly broad restrictions are "reasonable."  The Washington D.C. ban on handguns -- all handguns -- is reasonable.  (Later this year, the Supreme Court will quite likely issue an opinion to the contrary in the Heller case.)

Would we tolerate such a sweeping regulation of, say, the Thirteenth Amendment?

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

What if a politician -- say, a Republican from a red state in the south -- were to introduce a bill that permits enslaving black women?  Would we consider that reasonable?  It's not like the law would enslave all people, or even all black people.  Just the women.  There's no mention of enslaving women in the Thirteenth Amendment.  Clearly, when Lincoln wanted to free the slaves, he didn't intend to free all the slaves.  And we restrict all the other Amendments, so obviously the Thirteenth Amendment is not supposed to be absolute.  What's the big deal?

Ridiculous, right?  We'd take to the streets, we'd send angry letters to our representatives in Washington, we'd call our progressive radio programs to quote, verbatim, the Thirteenth Amendment.  Quite bluntly, although not literally, we'd be up in arms.  (Yeah, pun intended.)

And yet...A ban on all handguns seems reasonable to many liberals.  Never mind that of 192 million firearms in America, 65 million -- about one third -- are handguns.

This hardly seems consistent.

No. 3:  It's not 1776 anymore.

When the Founding Fathers, in their infinite wisdom, drafted the Bill of Rights, they could not have imagined machine guns.  Or armor-piercing bullets (which are not available to the public anyway, and are actually less lethal than conventional ammunition).  Or handguns that hold 18 rounds.  A drive-by shooting, back in 1776, would have been a guy on a horse with a musket.

Of course, they couldn't have imagined the internet, either.  But do we question the right of our gracious host, Markos, to say whatever the hell he wants on his blog?  (The wisdom, perhaps, but not the right.)

Similarly, the Founding Fathers could not have imagined 24-hour cable news networks.  When they drafted the First Amendment, did they really mean to protect the rights of Bill O'Reilly to make incredibly stupid, and frequently inaccurate, statements for an entire hour, five nights a week?

Actually, yes.  They did.  Bill O'Reilly bilious ravings, and Keith Olbermann's Special Comments, and Bill Moyer's analysis of the corruption of the Bush Administration, and the insipid chatter of the entire cast of the Today show are, and were intended to be, protected by the First Amendment.

We liberals are supposed to understand that just because we don't agree with something doesn't mean it is not protected.  At least when it comes to the First Amendment.  

But as for the Second Amendment?  When discussing the Second Amendment, liberals become obtuse in their literalism.  The Second Amendment does not protect the right to own all guns.  Or all ammunition.  It doesn't protect the right of the people as individuals.

Liberals will defend the right of Cindy Sheehan to wear an anti-war T-shirt, even though the First Amendment says nothing about T-shirts.

They will defend the right of citizens to attend a Bush rally wearing an anti-Bush button, even though the First Amendment says nothing about buttons.

They will defend the rights of alleged terrorists to a public trial, even though, when writing the Sixth Amendment, the Founding Fathers certainly could not have imagined a world in which terrorists would plot to blow up building with airplanes.  The notion of airplanes would have shocked most of them (with the possible exception of Thomas Jefferson.  He was always inventing things.)

No. 4: It's not like you can use it anyway.

Fine, you say.  Have your big, scary guns.  It's not like you actually stand a chance in fighting against the United States government.  The Army has bigger, badder weapons than any private citizen.  Your most deadly gun is no match for their tanks, their helicopters, their atom bombs.  Maybe two hundred years ago, citizens stood a chance in a fight against government, but not today.  The Second Amendment is obsolete.

Tell that to the USSR, held at bay for about six years by pissed off Afghanis with WWI rifles.

Tell that to the Iraqi "insurgents" who are putting up a pretty good fight against our military might with fairly primitive weapons.

The Second Amendment is obsolete?

What other rights might be considered obsolete in today's day and age?

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

When was the last time a soldier showed up at your door and said, "I'll be staying with you for the indefinite future"?

I'm guessing it's been a while.  But of course, were it to happen, you'd dust off your Third Amendment and say, "I don't think so, pal."

And you'd be right.

And hasn't our current administration made the Sixth Amendment obsolete?

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

Shall we ask all of those "unlawful combatants" whether the Sixth Amendment still applies?

The President merely has to categorize you as an "unlawful combatant," and whoosh!  No more rights to a speedy and public trial, an impartial jury, or even knowledge of the charges and identification of the witnesses who will testify against you.  With one fell swoop of the pen, the President can suspend your Sixth Amendment rights.

Since it has no effect, whenever the President feels like it, why do we even need the Sixth Amendment anymore?

What about the Twenty-Sixth Amendment?  How much use does that get?

The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

We all know the youth vote is typically pretty abysmal.  Those lazy kids can barely get out of bed before noon, let alone get themselves to the voting booth.  If they're not going to use their Twenty-Sixth Amendment rights, shouldn't we just delete the damn thing altogether?

Of course not!  I voted when I was eighteen, and I was proud to do so.  In fact, most liberals will argue for greater enfranchisement.  They support the rights of convicted felons to vote.  Liberals are all about getting out the vote and rocking the vote.  They sit at tables at their local farmer's market, trying to register new voters.  They make calls to likely voters, even offering to give them a lift to the polling station.  

For liberals, the Twenty-Sixth Amendment (for teens), the Fifteenth Amendment (for blacks), and the Nineteenth Amendment (for women) barely scratch the surface.  

But the Second Amendment?

Crickets.  Or, worse, loud calls for greater restrictions.  More laws.  Less access.  Regulate, regulate, regulate -- until the Second Amendment is nearly regulated out of existence because no one needs to have a gun anyway.

And that, sadly, is the biggest mistake of all.

Because, to paraphrase a recent comment by mlandman:

The Second Amendment is not about hunting or even guns anymore than the First Amendment is about quill pens and hand-set type.

We do not quibble about the methods by which we practice our First Amendment rights because that is not the point.  And red herring arguments about types of ammunition or handguns versus rifles (even scary looking ones) are just that -- red herrings.  They distract us from what is at the true meaning of the Second Amendment.  And that brings me to my final point.

No. 5: The Second Amendment is about revolution.

In no other country, at no other time, has such a right existed.  It is not the right to hunt.  It is not the right to shoot at soda cans in an empty field.  It is not even the right to shoot at a home invader in the middle of the night.

It is the right of revolution.  

Let me say that again:  It is the right of revolution.

Consider the words of that most forward thinking of Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson:

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Tyranny in government.  That was Mr. Jefferson's concern.  And he spoke from experience, of course.  He knew the Revolutionary War was not won with hand-painted banners or people chanting slogans.  It was a long and bloody war of attrition where the colonials took on the biggest military machine in the world.  

And we all know how that turned out.

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government.

To alter or abolish the government.  These are not mild words; they are powerful.  They are revolutionary.  

Mr. Jefferson might never have imagined automatic weapons.  But he probably also never imagined a total ban on handguns either.

The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

We talk about the First Amendment as a unique and revolutionary concept -- that we have the right to criticize our government.  Does it matter whether we do so while standing on a soapbox on the corner of the street, or on a blog?  No.  Because the concept, not the methodology, is what matters.

And the Second Amendment is no different.  We liberals tend to get bogged down in the details at the expense of being able to understand, and appreciate, the larger idea.  

The Second Amendment is not about how much ammunition is "excessive."  Or what kinds of guns are and are not permissible.  We should have learned by now that prohibition is ineffective.  That's why we repealed the Eighteenth Amendment, prohibiting the "manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors."  It didn't work.

That's why our War on Drugs has been such an utter failure.  Prohibition does not prevent people from smoking pot; it just turns pot smokers into criminals.  (And what would our hemp-growing Founding Fathers think of that?)  

And so it is with gun laws.  They certainly don't prevent gun crimes.  A total ban on handguns in DC has hardly eliminated violent crimes in DC.  Although it may be correlation, rather than causation, crime tends to be lower in areas with more guns.  After Florida and Texas passed concealed carry laws, crime rates went down.

So.

What is the point?  Is this a rallying cry for liberals to rush right out and purchase a gun?  Absolutely not.  Guns are dangerous when used by people who are not trained to use them, just as cars are dangerous when driven by people who have not been taught how to drive.

No, this is a rallying cry for the Constitution.  For the Bill of Rights.  For all of our rights.  

This is an appeal to every liberal who says, "I just don't like guns."

This is an appeal to every liberal who says, "No one needs that much ammunition."

This is an appeal to every liberal who says, "That's not what the Founding Fathers meant."

This is an appeal to every liberal who says, "Columbine and Virginia Tech prove we need more laws."

This is an appeal to every liberal who supports the ACLU.  

This is an appeal to every liberal who has complained about the Bush Administration's trading of our civil liberties for the illusion of greater security.  (I believe I’ve seen a T-shirt or two about Benjamin Franklin’s thoughts on that.)

This is an appeal to every liberal who believes in fighting against the abuses of government, against the infringement of our civil liberties, and for the greater expansion of our rights.

This is an appeal to every liberal who thinks, despite some poor judgment on the issues of, say, slavery or women's suffrage, the Founding Fathers actually had pretty good ideas about limiting government power and expanding individual rights.

This is an appeal to every liberal who never wants to lose another election to Republicans because they have successfully persuaded the voters that Democrats will take their guns away.

This is an appeal to you, my fellow liberals.  Not merely to tolerate the Second Amendment, but to embrace it.  To love it and defend it and guard it as carefully as you do all the others.  

Because we are liberals.  And fighting for our rights -- for all of our rights, for all people -- is what we do.

Because we are revolutionaries.

Tags: Second Amendment, Constitution, Bill of Rights, liberals, guns (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 185 comments

    •  The fact that this already has 7 tips (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sdgeek, MooseHB, NMDad

      is deplorable evidence that even here, a lot of people Just Don't Get It.
      Universal bearing of arms DOES NOT increase the security of any state
      or polity that YOU live in.  The amendment reads, "a well-regulated
      militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right", etc.
      There are two premises in this that have simply been overtaken by
      events (i.e., they are FALSE NOW, even though they MIGHT have been
      true at the time of ratification), and a third that was completely hypocritical
      to begin with.  In the first place, if the militia means all the able-bodied
      men CAPABLE of bearing arms, then THAT being "well-regulated" in so
      bearing simply IS NOT necessary (or even helpful) to the security of
      this or that allegedly "free" state.  No state in THESE United States
      FACES the kind of threat that generally arming the populace MIGHT
      help to combat.  The second false premise is that arming everybody
      WOULD HELP the militia to be more regulated -- THE EXACT OPPOSITE
      is true -- the more universally-armed everybody is, the more TROUBLE
      the REGULATORS are going to have regulating them.   Which is, of course,
      EXACTLY HOW GUN NUTS WANT it, but is THE OPPOSITE of what the
      amendment (obsoletely) presumes.

      The third false premise -- and, unlike the others, this one was false
      FROM THE BEGINNING -- it was just pure hypocrisy --  is that the states
      that the amendment was designed to protect were "free": IN POINT OF
      ACTUAL FACT, THE WHOLE INITIAL PURPOSE of the 2nd amendment was
      to ENSURE THAT WHITE MEN WOULD BE WELL-ENOUGH ARMED IN LARGE
      ENOUGH NUMBERS to put down slave rebellions in these states --  THAT
      was the security (of a FREE state - HAH!)  that was being talked about.

      This amendment is obsolete, period.
      The best way to prove that is to start taking it seriously.
      The verb in the amendment is "infringe".  To "infringe" something
      means to just take a LITTLE bit off around the edges.   The plain language
      and meaning of the thing is that EVERY LITTLE bit of gun regulation, even
      if it's just around the FRINGE, is unconstitutional.  Unfortunately, our Supreme
      Court has always specialized in eviscerating the important parts of the
      document.  If they would just read what it says then ALL the gun-control
      laws would fall EXCEPT the ones that the state could show were contributing
      to better-regulating the militia -- and even THAT would be a stretch,
      grammatically -- the amendment does not say "shall not be infringed
      except where such infringement would improve regulation of the militia" --
      it says "shall not be infringed." PERIOD .
      IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS, NOT what Antonin Scalia says it says.
      If the Supreme Court were to start ruling accordingly and striking down
      gun laws, then the sheer carnage that would ensue would get us the
      mandate we need to amend the constitution to address this issue rationally.
      As it stands, we have a constitution that says you CAN'T regulate guns,
      and a Supreme Court that says you can, and nobody has ANY legal or moral
      high ground around the issue.

      "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

      by ge0rge on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:20:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your both wrong! (9+ / 0-)

        First of all, the Supreme Court has ruled that everywhere the Constitution says, "The People" it is talking about all the people, no exceptions.  The 2nd Amendment guarantees the right of "The People" to keep and bear arms.  That means all of us; you, me, Dick Cheney, everyone.

        Your claim about the 2nd Amendment being about putting down slave rebellions does not fit the historical facts.  Massachusetts — which never allowed slavery — introduced the 2nd Amendment.  Why did they do that?

        One of the ways the British Empire oppressed its subjects was a monopoly on violence.  Soldiers, being agents of the King, could bear arms; citizens could not.  The Founders realized that a country needed soldiers to defend itself — especially the US of A, which was under attack from Britain until 1812.

        In order to prevent the US from forming a Samurai class, they made it a Constitutional provision that all citizens were allowed to keep and bear arms.  Therefore, the soldiers could keep and bear arms not because they were soldiers, but because they were citizens.

        If you look at the Third Amendment in this context, you can see why they enumerated that right as well.

        The Second Amendment says that the army is a civilian organization, answerable to the people and comprised of the people.  Do you have a problem with that?

      •  I believe in the Right to Bear Arms (9+ / 0-)

        by The People.Without weapons to fight with you bow your knee to whoever rules so If you want a nation that bow's on knees to "whoever" rules then take the 2nd Amendment away.

      •  HAVEN'T YOU SINGLE-ISSUE GUN CONTROL CRAZIES (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Shadan7, Big Tex, debedb

        COST THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ENOUGH ELECTIONS?

        Now you're trying to sink Obama as well.

        Go join Nader's presidential campaign.

        If he'll have you.

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:34:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's Obama's stance on the 2nd that clinched my (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Shadan7, fight2bfree, Big Tex, boofdah, Jacques

          support for him.  He has publically affirmed that he considers it an individual right, not a collective right.

          That's all we really want to hear.  After that, we're good.

          And armed.

        •  WTF? (3+ / 0-)

          If I were to post the equivalent of what you just said about any other group -- say, "affirmative action nuts" -- I would undoubtedly be troll-rated right off the page.

          It is not the "gun control crazies" who support the Second Amendment who are costing Democrats elections.

          It is the ignorant, self-righteous "gun control crazies" who oppose the Second Amendment who are costing Democrats elections.

          Get your facts straight.

          •  not my facts, my expression of them (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Shadan7, fight2bfree, Angry Mouse

            That was intended as an attack on PRO gun-control "Democrats".

            I'm fully on board with supporting the 2nd Amendment.

            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

            by alizard on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:36:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Gotcha. (0+ / 0-)

              I realized, from your other comments, that you're actually on our side.

              I guess it's just my knee jerk reaction -- I see the words "gun" and "crazies" and I assume it's yet another SOB ranting about "gun nuts."

              (And seriously, do these people not understand how offensive that term is?)

              My bad.

              •  we need to push the word "crazies" (0+ / 0-)

                back on the heads of the "BAN TEH EVILL!!!! GUNS!!!!!" fanatics who are indeed willing to let McCain become President as long as Democrats' "purity of essence" is intact.

                Anyone who thinks this more important than turning DC blue deserves to be called a crazy. Particularly considering how big the overlap is between this community and the raving maniacs for Hillary and of course, the Democratic Leadership Council.

                Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                by alizard on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:35:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  You are so wrong in so many ways (6+ / 0-)

        I can't begin to ennumerate them.

        This is the Founders' guarantee that future generations would have the ability to make any potential governmental tyranny think twice about imposing dictatorship.  Period.  Angry Mouse is absolutely correct, and any lessor reading of the 2nd is an acquiescence to either bitter cynicism or boneheaded idealism.  

        If a people cannot, even symbolically, protect themselves from the tyranny of the state, then the vote which you prize so highly is yours by fiat, not by right.  

        Don't be a fool.

      •  If the Second Amendment is obsolete... (3+ / 0-)

        Are there any others?  Your argument (I think) is that we have so many laws on the books that are totally inconsistent and contrary that the Second Amendment is pointless.

        How about the First Amendment?  I mean, consider how many laws we have restricting the First Amendment.  Copyright laws alone.  So, does that make the First Amendment obsolete?

        Oh, and P.S.  "Gun nuts" is a bigoted, prejudiced, offensive term.  Liberals -- the same people who pride themselves on their tolerance and political correctiness -- should really stop using that term.  It makes them look like hypocrites.

      •  Where to begin? (4+ / 0-)

        First of all, it's absolute nonsense to suggest that the 2nd Amendment came about from the desire to put down slave rebellions.  I've never seen any evidence to support that assertion, and I doubt that any exists.  If anything, the founders were motivated first and foremost by a desire to check the power of the government.

        Secondly, the "well-regulated militia" part of the 2nd Amendment is a preamble, not a qualifier.  The people who interpret that section of the amendment as a qualifier are using the same stilted logic that right-wingers use to parse away other freedoms, like those enshrined in the 1st Amendment ("freedom of speech, not expression" and "freedom of religion, not from religion" are examples of this logic).

        And many gun rights proponents, like myself, believe that the individual right to keep and bear arms is a natural right that stems from the right to self-defense, and would stand up for that right regardless of what the Constitution or any other law says.  Just like we would for a woman's right to choose, or the broader right to privacy.

        •  And the greater irony is... (2+ / 0-)

          that the concept of "gun control" evolved out of the desire to keep guns out of the hands of free blacks after the Civil War.  So that they could not protect themselves against -- yup -- the tyrany of the government.

          Oh, how far we've come...

        •  Nonsense to the ignorant (0+ / 0-)

          First of all, it's absolute nonsense to suggest that the 2nd Amendment came about from the desire to put down slave rebellions.  I've never seen any evidence to support that assertion, and I doubt that any exists.

          Just because you've never seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
          Who the heck are you??  Besides ignorant, I mean, since personal ignorance is what you're flaunting here.
          THIS IS THE INTERNET!   IT'S OUT THERE!.   DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK!
          I will give you ONE reference in advance.  READ THIS.
          It doesn't even matter whether you agree with it or not.  The point is,
          JUST BY EXISTING, it hereafter disentitles you to doubt that the evidence
          exists.  Just by existing, it makes you look stupid for having laughed
          off the possiblity.

          Of course, this is just one law journal article (albeit with quotes
          FROM THE FRAMERS AND FOUNDERS THEMSELVES -- so whose word
          are we supposed to take for it?  The people WHO ACTUALLY WROTE AND
          RATIFIED the amendment or YOUR IGNORANT OPINION on the basis
          of what you were TOO LAZY TO HAVE BOTHERED seeing??).
          You will find it drowned by a plethora of others on "the racist roots of
          gun control" where modern right-wing gun nuts (racists all) attempt
          to defuse objections to their racism by alleging that gun control was to keep
          guns out of the hands of black people so that white ones could shoot
          them more easily.  That may have been true for about 50 years following
          the Civil War but it was not true when the amendment was ratified and it
          is certainly not true today, where the case that has the issue before the
          Supreme Court again is motivated by black people killing each other with guns -- mostly around transactions having nothing whatsoever to do with
          the state since they are illegal to begin with.

          "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

          by ge0rge on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:55:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I won't embrace it (7+ / 0-)

    But I won't hate it either. I'm fine with it.

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM PDT

    •  Having lived in a country where there is no (10+ / 0-)

      equivalent of 2nd amendment rights, I cherish it just as much as the 4th and the 1st.

      I have firsthand reports of pogroms against minorities in that country (India) where the ONLY defense the cornered victims had was their arms (swords, spears and the like, and some guns). The cowardly mobs dared not touch them until they were disarmed by the police, and then green light given to the mobs to kill them.

      Citizens without the ability to protect themselves are easy targets to be herded like sheep.

      I am as liberal as any of you, probably much more liberal than most of the Kossacks here, but I will not accept any dilution of the 2nd amendment. Regulation in schools, hospitals etc is OK, but the fundamental 2nd amendment right of INDIVIDUALS to bear arms is the lifeblood of this republic.

      During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

      by MAORCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:43:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks. That's the way I feel, too. (0+ / 0-)

      WTF, the economy is in the toilet, we're an occupying power, and Osama bin Laden is laughing his head off, why are we wasting electrons on this?

      I own guns, I don't shoot innocent Iraqis, and I'm making an inflation adjusted wage that's the same as I made in high-school!

      Why should I care? No matter who's elected, no one will be taking my guns, no one will be proposing onerous registration schemes, guns are a non-issue for this election.

      Can we please tell every NRA Democrat, and yes, there are lots, to think about, maybe getting out of Iraq, and fixing the *(&^*$( potholes I have to drive around every day?

      Thank you.

      "The road to gas chambers starts when good people find excuses to justify torture and murder. Feinstein and Schumer are enablers."- Larry Johnson -8.25, -6.21

      by Jacques on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:02:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fact is, (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MooseHB

    many, many don't.  It's a "living, breathing document," you see, and from time to time a piece needs to be excised.

  •  I wouldn't say "love" is necessary (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pattyp, lightfoot, NMDad

    And, quite honestly, every gun owner I know is also a Democrat.

    But it is not unreasonable to want some form of gun control, and it is possible to have that without ignoring the second ammendment.

    •  But what is "reasonable"? (2+ / 0-)

      You'd be hard-pressed to find a gun owner who doesn't agree that "reasonable" regulations make sense.

      The disagreement comes on the issue of what is considered "reasonable."  

      Bush thinks wiretapping all of our phones is a "reasonable" interpretation of the Fourth Amendment.  But most liberals I know disagree.

      So the issue is not whether "reasonable" gun control is lawful.  The issue is what we consider "reasonable."  And, in my opinion, the kinds of laws Democrats typically support are quite unreasonable.

      •  i am a gun owner (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        debedb, sdgeek, BoiseBlue

        I am a Democrat. The state says I have to register to vote as one.
        I am a Car Owner. The state says I have to have a license to drive it.
        I am a Motorcycle Owner. The state says I need a more restrictive license to ride it.
        I am a Fisherman. The state says I have to have a license to fish.
        I am an Architect. The state says I have to have license to build.

        All seem like pretty reasonable restrictions to the vast majority of Americans.

        Yet the second someone suggests that the state should require me to have a license to operate the gun I own, everyone acts like it is the greatest assault on my personal freedom possible.

        It is very odd.

        you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

        by Schtu on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:02:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  However... (0+ / 0-)

          The state does not require you to have a different license for every different car you drive.

          The state does not require you to have a different license for every different building you design.

          Every time you buy a new fishing rod, you don't have to go through a test to show that you know how to use that particular fishing rod.

          If you are a gun owner, as you claim, then you should be well aware that there are much greater hoops to jump through in owning a gun than in owning a car.

          •  I had to jump through zero hoops (0+ / 0-)

            My Grandmother said, "hey, here is your grandfathers golf clubs, and here is your father's gun."

            I put them in the car. Drove home across about 5 state lines.

            I went to K-Mart, bought some ammunition.

            That was it.

            It is sitting in my closet, five feet away from me right now. No registration, no nothing.

            you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

            by Schtu on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:35:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then you probably broke a dozen laws... (0+ / 0-)

              depending on the states you drove through.

              Was the gun unloaded?  Locked in a box in the trunk?  Did you have ammo with you?  Do you have a concealed carry permit?

              Just because you didn't jump through hoops doesn't mean there weren't hoops you were legally required to jump through.

              •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

                Unloaded, bought the ammo when I got home, in the trunk.

                I also showed it to a Police Officer.

                This notion that you are trying to perpetuate that purchasing a gun, or receiving it as a gift is some onerous burden just doesn't fly.

                Ordering the latest Harry Potter book on Amazon was more onerous. Getting a building permit for a bathroom remodel is onerous.

                you scratch a redneck and you will find a liberal underneath.....

                by Schtu on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:35:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Frankly, (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not sure I agree with the rights of the State to require ANY of those licenses.  Especially the one to drive a car, which is equivalent to your Right-To-Live in modern America.  Just try buying groceries without one on a regular basis.

          Guess I'm just an anarchist.  And I've never registered as anything but an Independent when it comes to voting.

  •  The beauty of the constitution is (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MooseHB

    that its dynamic. We can change it. Its time for the 2nd ammendment to go away.

    To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

    by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:11:21 PM PDT

    •  Because...? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      SicPlurisPoenaPrestantia

      Do you think we should get rid of any other parts of the Constitution, or is just the Second Amendment that you think is so disposable?

      •  2nd ammendment (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        MooseHB

        and probably the electoral college.

        And not disposable - despicable.

        To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

        by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:21:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fine (6+ / 0-)

          There are provision to amend the Constitution.  Wouldn't that be the honest thing to do?

          (But is's soooooo hard.)

        •  Because...? (3+ / 0-)

          Really, I'm curious to know what it is about the Second Amendment that you find so "despicable."

          •  I'm a pacifist (0+ / 0-)

            I find guns despicable and inherently evil.

            To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

            by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:27:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And all other tools used to kill or harm another? (4+ / 0-)

              Like knives, hammers, clubs, fists . . .

              Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

              by Shadan7 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:29:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I find all weapons despicable (0+ / 0-)

                There is a large gray area between weapon and tool. I don't think guns fall in that gray area.

                To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:31:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  if *all* weapons were despicable . . . (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Shadan7, fight2bfree, debedb

                  discocarp would have no peace to enjoy.  Peace is a state imposed upon our natural state (anarchy -- we are a nasty species), by good guys (some are called "police") who impose fundamental rules like prohibiting somebody who is bigger than you are from bashing in your head with a rock and taking all your shit.  

                  I too am a pacifist.  I love peace.  I love my peace.  I also love (well, not love, but appreciate the utility of) my piece(s), which permit me to impose a sphere of peace and tranquility for between 75 and 300 yards around me.  

                  It might be impolite to point out the following to discocarp, but I feel compelled. There are two kinds of people in the world: (1) the free; and (2) food animals.  Can you guess in which category I think you (discocarp) belong?  

              •  When was the last time (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                discocarp, BoiseBlue, CalexanderJ

                You heard about a sniper using a hammer?

                Go Hemp!

                Twilight Bark is nothing more than a gossip chain.

                by MooseHB on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:32:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Rwanda. (9+ / 0-)

                  A lot of people died.

                  Most of them didn't have guns.

                  They used machetes.

                  They even used their bare hands.

                  We've been killing each other since long before the invention of gun powder.

                •  Guy here . . . (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  defluxion10, Big Tex, bugscuffle

                  . . . used a hammer to murder four people in a convenience-store robbery a few years back.  Granted, he wasn't a "sniper", but how many people are killed annually in the US by snipers?

                  Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                  by Shadan7 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:39:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Very, very few. (7+ / 0-)

                    About as many as are killed by "assault rifles."  Or, a miniscule number compared to the number of children drowned in deadly backyard swimming pools.

                  •  I cook, and you'll get my Chinese cleaver when (5+ / 0-)

                    you pry it from...

                    On a related note, when I was cooking professionally, one of my prep cooks was from a certain [unnamed] central American country. He was good, I thought for sure he'd been a chef before, so one day I asked what he'd done in the "old country". This brought about a few minutes of rapid Spanish with several other crew members, then one said "We don't know the word, but he was the guy who would hide in a tree and shoot people..."

                    "Sniper?" I said. Yep. That was the word. Turns out he had been fighting one of the governments we (the US) had installed...

                    P.S. I'm really, really Left, own guns, and I think there are more Democratic/progressive supporters of the Second amendment than is commonly believed.

                    "The road to gas chambers starts when good people find excuses to justify torture and murder. Feinstein and Schumer are enablers."- Larry Johnson -8.25, -6.21

                    by Jacques on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:06:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  But they're often in the closet... (2+ / 0-)

                      Because there is such a stigma within liberal/Democratic crowds (at least in the urban areas of blue states) that even those liberals who own guns often don't talk about it or make a big deal about it.

                      •  Not where I live (3+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Shadan7, Jacques, Angry Mouse

                        Lots of democrats like myself who have guns and support gun rights.

                        I think the problem has been in the Democratic party the LEADERSHIP did not pursue a 50 state strategy and so the areas they DID focus on gun control was popular.

                        Now we see that changing. President Clinton showed that you could win the White House saying you were going to protect gun owners but  once he started passing unpopular gun bills it wasn't long before he didn't have anyone to pass them for him.

                        Now that is changing. With the 50 state strategy we have to take democratic and other gun owners into consideration. In fact as much as I hate this long primary tht the whole gun issue is in front will be good for the party in the long run.

                        I think that improving the background check system, something like that has widespread appeal. I think closing the gun show loophole would lose some votes but would have decent support even from gun owners.

                        On the other hand a renewal of the AWB, national gun registration, anything that would list gun owners so that their guns could potentially be rounded up will not fly.

                        The analogy about the cars and registration and all is not really valid. The problem is there's LOTS of countries where guns are essentially banned. So anything where the gov't makes a list of the owners is viewed as a tool for a future restrictive gov't to confiscate.

                        •  Urban versus rural... (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Shadan7, Jacques

                          My problem is that even Democratic politicians who don't want to sound outright anti-gun will talk about "rural" gun owners and hunters.  As if that is what the Second Amendment is about -- hunting.

                          There are plenty of liberals in urban areas in blue states who also own guns.  But it is considered permissible by the Democratic leadership to talk about restricting their guns because when they talk about "urban" as if all urban gun owners are gangbangers.

                          This is why I have a problem with the rural/urban divide.  The Second Amendment should be for all of us.

                        •  "gun show loophole?" (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Shadan7, Angry Mouse

                          Hollowdweller, I have great respect for what you have to say, but I'd add a reminder as to what happened to members of congress who voted for the AWB.  Six little words: "Newt Gingrich, Speaker of the House."  Can’t we all agree that preventing that from happening again is a good thing?  

                          But you apply the (il)logic of using the term "assault weapon" to the term "gun show loophole."  In many states (I can't say "most" because I don't know the number), private-party sales are legal.  Allowing private-party sales at a gun show is merely a market-clearing mechanism where buyers and sellers can meet, much like eBay or gunbroker.com.  By using (or endorsing) the term "loophole" you give substance to something that is meaningless.  You are demonizing something that is neutral, in much the same way that effective (fighting) weapons that happen to be black and scary looking are demonized by calling them "assault weapons."    

                          •  not exactly (0+ / 0-)

                            On gunbroker you have to have an FFL receive the gun for you if you are in different states.

                            Look I enjoy being able to buy guns without the paperwork at gunshows as much as the next guy. And also I enjoy face to face sales. All are permitted in my state.

                            HOWEVER, I have several friends who live in semi urban areas. They are REPUBLICANS and they favor an instant check at gunshows. They say in the area where their gunshows are, where the rural and urban areas meet up the gangbangers show up at the gun shows and load up on anything that is not from an ffl. Even old h and R and owl head pistols. They however avoid FFL dealers or anyone who asks to see a drivers license.

                            So while I like it I can see their point.

                            •  I have to agree, you make a very valid point (0+ / 0-)

                              And you are in all respects technically (and legally) correct.  

                              I lived in California for years, and loathed the ridiculous 14(?) day waiting period.  I love living in a free state where I can walk in to the FFL of my choice, credit card in hand, get cleared as a non-felon in 5 minutes, and walk out with the weapon of my choice.  I would not (could not, because your point makes perfect sense) feel any differently about identical treatment at a gun show.  

                              Don't you think, though, it would be more intellectually honest to refer to a law requiring "instant background checks" at gun shows?  The demonization of all things firearms-related, e.g., a friend recently referred erroneously to "Teflon-coated bullets," cheapens the legitimacy of valid points like the one you make.  

            •  Well, I can't argue with that lack of logic. (4+ / 0-)

              But, by that "logic," I assume you find the First Amendment despicable as well?  After all, it protects the rights of all those horrid people on Fox News who are, in my opinion, inherently evil.

              •  And that has what exactly to do with guns? (0+ / 0-)

                Pretty silly comparison.

                To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:32:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's precisely my point. (2+ / 0-)

                  You might not personally like guns, but that's not really the point of the Second Amendment, any more than Bill O'Reilly is the point of the First Amendment.

                  •  A gun and a word are completely different -nt- (0+ / 0-)

                    To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                    by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:37:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Why? (4+ / 0-)

                      The Revolutionary War was not won with words, you know.

                      I'm trying to understand your distinction.  Maybe I'm making faulty assumptions.  I assume you are like most liberals -- you have a deep, abiding love and respect for our founding documents.  I assume that you treasure not just the words written in the Bill of Rights, but what those words symbolize.

                      Maybe my assumption is wrong.

                      •  my pacifism > my liberalism (0+ / 0-)

                        period.

                        To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                        by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:43:13 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Really. (3+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          Shadan7, Big Tex, discocarp

                          It's your highest value?  Damn.

                          •  absolutely (0+ / 0-)

                            #1. No contest.

                            To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                            by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:48:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Then feel lucky (4+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              Shadan7, Big Tex, debedb, Angry Mouse

                              that there are peace loving people fighting for you, against others who have no need, or desire for passivism, so that you can maintain yours.

                              "How often misused words generate misleading thoughts."
                              ~Herbert Spencer~

                              by Eidolon on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:57:52 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  I believe in nonviolent resistance (0+ / 0-)

                                and civil disobedience. Only.

                                I pity those who fight.

                                To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                                by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:00:32 PM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

                                •  "Nonviolent resistance" means no USA. (5+ / 0-)

                                  We did not get to be our own country, free from the rule of King George, by "civil disobedience."  As romantic as it sounds, the Boston Tea Party did not win the war.

                                  Like Thomas Jefferson said:

                                  The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

                                  •  and? (0+ / 0-)

                                    I didn't say (or think) otherwise.

                                    To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                                    by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:08:24 PM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                    •  Just trying to understand... (1+ / 0-)

                                      Recommended by:
                                      SicPlurisPoenaPrestantia

                                      You don't have a problem with other people protecting you and your rights, but you don't like to acknowledge that they do so under the protection of the Second Amendment?

                                      •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                                        I wasn't born early enough to convince the fighters in the revolutionary war that they should be practicing nonviolent resistance.

                                        What do you mean by "don't have a problem?" I don't get to choose how other people behave. I also don't live in la la land where I expect everyone to drop what they're doing and bend to my will. Your questions are very confusing.

                                        To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                                        by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:26:05 PM PDT

                                        [ Parent ]

                                •  Yes, well nonviolent resistance and (3+ / 0-)

                                  Recommended by:
                                  Shadan7, cynndara, Angry Mouse

                                  civil disobedience work when you're facing an enemy that shares your principles. The British in India, and other places, were decimated by war, had no resources to put down constant rebellion, and really didn't believe they wanted to keep the Empire anyway. So nonviolent resistance and civil disobedience had an effect.

                                  On the other hand, the (recently defeated) enemy of the British Empire, Nazi Germany, really, really wanted to keep their Empire growing, and were willing to do whatever it took to achieve their aims. Nonviolent resistance and civil disobedience didn't slow those guys down much.

                                  MLK was effective because the Panthers were in the background. The Yippies could levitate the Pentagon, and it had an effect, because the Weather Underground blew up an unoccupied bathroom.

                                  Know why there's an occupation in Iraq? Before the war, I and a bazillion of my close friends around the world, stood up in protest, marched in the streets, and accomplished nothing. But we didn't scare anybody. Here in The City, it was just another Saturday protest, more overtime for the cops, the anarchists threw a trash can into a Starbuck's window and were promptly arrested, and we all disavowed their violent excesses. And then, the War started. The War machine didn't even hiccup.

                                  Yes, non-violent resistance is a more moral, and better path. But sometimes, the time of the knife comes, and the note: "Drive him quickly to his grave."

                                  "The road to gas chambers starts when good people find excuses to justify torture and murder. Feinstein and Schumer are enablers."- Larry Johnson -8.25, -6.21

                                  by Jacques on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:28:18 PM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  I'm prepared to die (0+ / 0-)

                                    I'm not willing to kill.

                                    To me, the absolute most important issue ANY of us has, and this nation has, is that we are currently being ruled by a gang of immoral war criminals. -Hornito

                                    by discocarp on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:33:07 PM PDT

                                    [ Parent ]

                                    •  Unfortunately (3+ / 0-)

                                      dying, while it can have great moral force, must be very, very strategically targeted to be as effective as killing.  Noble, but a very difficult tool to wield successfully.  So the question becomes: are you willing to suffer oppression, not merely for yourself, but for all the others you might have saved, in order to preserve your precious scruples?  Is the slow, grinding misery of poverty and living hell of the oppressed less torment than quick and brutal violence?  In my mind, violence has many faces; not all are as obvious as bloody corpses, but the corpses pile up nonetheless.

                                    •  Then you don't have kids. (0+ / 0-)

                                      You'd probably change your attitude, then.

                                    •  That's okay, there are those (like me) (3+ / 0-)

                                      Recommended by:
                                      Shadan7, Angry Mouse, Aristodemus

                                      who will step up and butcher the cow so that you can have a hamburger. If, or when, the time comes, there are those who will step up to fight the growing fascist tide. We are all working for the same goal.

                                      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
                                      John F. Kennedy

                                      "The road to gas chambers starts when good people find excuses to justify torture and murder. Feinstein and Schumer are enablers."- Larry Johnson -8.25, -6.21

                                      by Jacques on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:54:47 PM PDT

                                      [ Parent ]