Daily Kos

How Your Vote Can Help Avert WW3

Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:35:05 AM PDT

ACTION PLAN towards end of post: your vote needed to help avert nuclear war... UPDATE - video done ~ 11:30 AM, but this post won't likely hit rec list. Your support still VERY welcome & helpful. Best, BW

On Sunday, I made a very popular post, on this forum, titled "Meet The Press" Crowd Aghast at Clinton's "Nuclear Umbrella", which featured the take of nuclear deterrence expert George E. Lowe, on Hillary Clinton's "massive retaliation" quip.

So, last night I heard about Hillary Clinton's interview with ABC's Jake Tapper, aired this morning, in which Clinton stated that "If I'm elected president I will attack Iran."

The CONTEXT was Tapper's question about Clinton's "massive retaliation" quip, and how the US would respond if Iran attacked Israel. But, Clinton FORGOT to use the conditional, "[I] WOULD". She said "[I] WILL"...

[Plus Israel already has first and second strike nuclear capability - any conceivable attack on Israel, nuclear or not, would not prevent Israel from launching a devastating retaliatory strike on Iran. Israel doesn't NEED an America "nuclear umbrella". Israel has one of its own.]

First, I thought lots of [unprintable] things. For about 30 seconds.

Then I emailed George E. Lowe with the subsequent Daily Kos post about Senator Clinton's apparent promise, if elected of a war with Iran. I old Lowe I was going to bed but that we probably should talk in the AM

Lowe emailed me back immediately to say, yes - and, he'd call me after he made coffee in the AM. Well in fact he called me BEFORE making coffee though I had the good fortune of a cup of it in my hand...

George E. Lowe feels strongly about nuclear war - he wrote a book, in the early 1960's following the Cuban Missile Crisis, about nuclear deterrence and also had the dubious privilege, during the crisis and apparently, as it seemed then, on the eve of World War 3, guarding one of the "Red Phones" [You can read about that in Lowe's book It Can Happen Here: A Fascist Christian America [volume 1]]. . .

Well, George Lowe tells me things right now feel very similar.

Before I go on any further, here's my action plan to help avert WW3 :

Whether Barry Goldwater was fairly characterized, in the notorious "Daisy Ad" [by Lyndon Johnson's political campaign, widely held as the most influential campaign ad ever made] or not, I've come to the point that I believe we've got 2 presidential candidates, Democrat Hillary Clinton and Republican John McCain, who truly ARE as insane as Barry Goldwater was PURPORTED to be.

Here's the "Daisy" ad:

Here's my action plan:

ACTION PLAN

My plan : within the next hour and a half, by 10:45 EST, I will attach to this post a Youtube video I'm now producing and I need YOUR HELP to get the video up to a point of prominence on YouTube - I need your vote, on my YouTube video, to get it out before a wider viewing public.

George E. Lowe, author of "The Age Of Deterrence" and award winning articles on nuclear deterrence, a man who was standing on guard, in the eve of the possible start of WW3, beside one of the Red Phones is acting as my ad-hoc adviser as I compile, in a crazy effort that's the most worthwhile thing I could possibly be doing with my time now even if it is my last act on Earth, a video indicating just how close to the brink we've come.

I could do better if I had more time, sure.

But I don't have more time and WE don't have more time...

...if we truly want to avoid those mushrooms clouds that haunted the nightmares of everyone older than the age of forty, all who can remember the nuclear madness that recrudesced during the Presidency of Ronald Reagan and only was contained when Reagan came to his senses briefly but long enough to call an end to the Cold War.

Those nightmares are back, the crazies are out now again, in force.  

Clinton and McCain are two of them.

So, I'm asking for your help in promoting my video.

Please return to this post within 90 minutes, by 10:45 EST and vote up my video, if you think it merits that.

We HAVE to STOP the crazy nuclear-war fighting memes that McCain and Clinton are throwing around with abandon, especially because there are others out there even, if its possible, CRAZIER than Clinton and McCain who might try to set WW3 in motion - by blowing up the Al Aksa mosque of the Dome of The Rock, by setting off a tactical nuke in some strategic spot...

There are both Jewish, Islamic and Christian fundamentalist crazies who have plans for such acts, and the words of Clinton and McCain might just convince them that NOW is the TIME.

So, please, lend me your support, your votes, to help put this nightmarish, apocalyptic nuclear genie BACK IN THE BOTTLE

BACKGROUND

Two days ago I was talking with George E. Lowe, and he told me he was watching TV recently and nearly fell off his chair when he saw former NATO Commander General Wes Clark fumbling, trying to field a question about Hillary Clinton's proposed "nuclear umbrella" over Western Asia Israel and a number of other countries in the Middle East.

"Who the HELL is she TALKING to ?", Lowe rhetorically asked me. "It's GOT to be that fellow Doug Coe."

As Lowe described it, Clinton's "nuclear umbrella" idea seems to have taken her adviser former NATO commander General Wes Clark, who as NATO head was in charge of a "nuclear umbrella" himself - it seemed to make Clark's head spin. He appeared blindsided by Clinton's talk of a US "nuclear umbrella" over Asia and George Lowe, who has studied nuclear deterrence for decades and also has written a book and award-winning articles on the subject, was quite taken aback.

NeoCons say such things, and there's a straight line, in such thinking, back to Herman Kahn, Curtis LeMay, and the SAC / RAND lunatics of the 1950's who envisioned fighting and WINNING "limited nuclear war".

Lowe, working as  witnessed in the our close brush, 1960-1965, with nuclear incineration during those days, says his Naval "cabal" (O5D)
group helped put the "Military Industrial Complex" warning in Ike's Farewell Address speech, says he worked with McCain's father in the Pentagon, and as a speechwriter in the Reagan Administration, thinks Clinton's "nuclear umbrella" idea is INSANE on the same order of madness.

The idea of a US "nuclear umbrella" is positively Strangelovian, even semantically. "Nuclear umbrella" ? What does that amount to ? Fallout settling to Earth during a nuclear winter ?

That would be an "umbrella" of sorts but not an especially pleasant one, and there are lots of wonkish reasons why Clinton's "nuclear umbrella" concept is insane but her apparent intention of flexing US nuclear throw-weight doesn't, as George Lowe told me, doesn't intleectually "track".

"Who the HELL is she talking to ? Whose IDEAS are these", Lowe asked me, rhetorically, "Clark didn't seem to know anything about this, he was blindsided. So where did these crazy, dangerous ideas come from ? Look, I've been in this business for fifty years, I know nuclear deterrence. She had to have been talking to somebody like Doug Coe or his elite inner circle."

It was conjecture, and George Lowe would be the first to admit that, but he would also stick to his call pegging Clinton's "nuclear umbrella" as a fast track to global nuclear war. Nuclear weapons can't be used as "umbrellas". That's nuts, an idea one would have expected from SAC head General  Curtis LeMay, parodied in Dr.Strangelove. Today, one would expect it from a neocon.. if she talks like a NeoCon, if she cavorts with NeoCon, if she makes the same sort of mistakes  "NeoCon".

So what, exactly, did Hillary Clinton propose ?

Below is the relevant part of the transcript from the April 16, 2008 Philadelphia Democratic Party candidates' debate:

"

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: So you would extend our deterrent to Israel?

SENATOR OBAMA: As I've said before, I think it is very important that Iran understands that an attack on Israel is an attack on our strongest ally in the region, one that we -- one whose security we consider paramount, and that -- that would be an act of aggression that we -- that I would -- that I would consider an attack that is unacceptable, and the United States would take appropriate action.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton, would you?

SENATOR CLINTON: Well, in fact, George, I think that we should be looking to create an umbrella of deterrence that goes much further than just Israel. Of course I would make it clear to the Iranians that an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the United States, but I would do the same with other countries in the region.

You know, we are at a very dangerous point with Iran. The Bush policy has failed. Iran has not been deterred. They continue to try to not only obtain the fissile material for nuclear weapons but they are intent upon and using their efforts to intimidate the region and to have their way when it comes to the support of terrorism in Lebanon and elsewhere.

And I think that this is an opportunity, with skillful diplomacy, for the United States to go to the region and enlist the region in a security agreement vis-a-vis Iran. It would give us three tools we don't now have.

Number one, we've got to begin diplomatic engagement with Iran, and we want the region and the world to understand how serious we are about it. And I would begin those discussions at a low level. I certainly would not meet with Ahmadinejad, because even again today he made light of 9/11 and said he's not even sure it happened and that people actually died. He's not someone who would have an opportunity to meet with me in the White House. But I would have a diplomatic process that would engage him.

And secondly, we've got to deter other countries from feeling that they have to acquire nuclear weapons. You can't go to the Saudis or the Kuwaitis or UAE and others who have a legitimate concern about Iran and say: Well, don't acquire these weapons to defend yourself unless you're also willing to say we will provide a deterrent backup and we will let the Iranians know that, yes, an attack on Israel would trigger massive retaliation, but so would an attack on those countries that are willing to go under this security umbrella and forswear their own nuclear ambitions.

And finally we cannot permit Iran to become a nuclear weapons power. And this administration has failed in our efforts to convince the rest of the world that that is a danger, not only to us and not just to Israel but to the region and beyond.

Therefore we have got to have this process that reaches out, beyond even who we would put under the security umbrella, to get the rest of the world on our side to try to impose the kind of sanctions and diplomatic efforts that might prevent this from occurring."

So last night George E. Lowe sent me this written response, to Clinton's "NUCLEAR UMBRELLA" idea.

[FORMATTING NOTE : Lowe uses lots of all-caps because, as he tells me, that's how it's done in the White House, by speechwriters - for the president, cabinet member, etc. The point is to show the person giving the speech what to emphasize. It's a method speechwriters use to spoon-feed the material. Lowe tells me he wrote hundreds of speeches while working under Former Secretary of Education Bell, during the Reagan Administrations]

[4-18-08]  CLINTON , THE NUCLEAR UMBRELLA  & The NEO-CONS

Like The Rodmans [& Hillary] I’m from Scranton & "was raised on pinochle and the American dream. "—when Scranton had a diverse population of 130,000 hard-working souls & Scranton was the third-largest city in Pennsylvania.  Today Scranton boasts about 70,000 older citizens & the railroads/hard coal mines/textile mills are long gone with most of the young folks seeking jobs & opportunities elsewhere.  

However, I find myself pleased, nearing 80, that Scranton is suddenly a topic of high political concern/drama, not just a joke left over from the old Lackawanna Avenue Vaudeville Days of my youth.  The question of the hour—after Hillary’s "strange"/odd/scary "Nuclear Umbrella over Western Asia" remarks in the skewed ABC NEWS Debate with Obama last Wednesday evening in Philly—ought to be. Is Hillary :  A "Neo-Con", A Liberal Utopian, channelling Senator "Scoop" Jackson & Charles--  "Benign  AmeriKan Empire"/"Holocaust Doctrine"-- Krauthammer  ? Or is Hillary reflecting her stealth "Pastor" Doug- "The Family"- Coe ‘s ideas of "Christian World DOMINION/DOMINATION", absorbed in Coe’s  Top Secret "Elitist Cell"@ The Cedars in Arlington, VA ?

Whatever the roots/source of Hillary’s bizzaro ideas/MEMES-- The "NUCLEAR UMBRELLA FOR WESTERN ASIA" trotted out in Wednesday’s Debate-- they were not extemporaneous , but were prepared by her speech writers— based on a  MEMO BY SOMEBODY. Curious minds want to know exactly who wrote & who vetted that "NUKE UMBRELLA MEMO" & related talking points? From General Wesley Clark’s response on TV—last Thursday it is evident that General Clark- my choice, for what it’s worth as VEEP on either Obama or Clinton’s ticket-- was surprised at Clinton’s "NUKE UMBRELLA " PROPOSAL. Let’s look at Hillary’s  SPECIFIC DEBATE REMARKS & SEE IF WE CAN do some DNA-idea  analysis about the proper parentage of Hillary’s NEW NUKE UMBRELLA FOR WESTERN ASIA.

Governor Al Smith, the victim of vicious anti-Catholic smears/fears by The White Southern Bible-Belters in the election of 1928, always suggested that we ought to "look at the record."
Here is part of Hillary’s record  & what she said about the "Nuclear Umbrella"/ Nuclear Deterrence/Grand Strategy/Nuclear Weapons & by implications PRE-EMPTIVE/PREVENTIVE WAR vs. Iran  during  the 16 April Debate.  

  1.      A. HILLARY:   "Well , in fact George, I think that we should be looking to create an umbrella of deterrence that goes much further than just Israel"[See Charles Krauthammer"Uncrowned King of the Neo-Con’s "Holocaust Doctrine" & Joe Klein’s expose, "SWAMPLAND", 11/04/2008 & his comment:"In any case , this notion of publically announcing that we would only protect Israel has the effect of reinforcing the regional view that we’re only interested in two things: oil and Israel. Bad move."]
  1.      B. GEL [George E. Lowe]: The Deterrence Concept of the " umbrella of deterrence" has its roots in the NATO Alliance—1949—1991. The key idea was that the superior US NUCLEAR DETERRENT [A-BOMBS & LONG RANGE HEAVY BOMBERS OF THE STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND(SAC)] would be both the "Sword & Shield" to protect our NATO ALLIES from Soviet nuclear weapons & massive ground attacks by Soviet tanks. An attack on one of our NATO ALLIES was an attack on all. Later in the 1950s when the USSR developed A & H Bombs & the Heavy Bombers to deliver them on the cities of our European    Allies, we pledged that an attack on Paris or London would be the same as an attack on New York or Chicago. In other words our NATO NUCLEAR UMBRELLA covered  ALL THE NORTH ATLANTIC NATIONS OF NATO.
  1.     A. HILLARY: "You can’t go to the Saudis or the Kuwaitis or UAE and others who have a legitimate concern about Iran and say ‘Well don’t acquire weapons to defend yourself unless you’re also willing to say we will produce a deterrent backup and we will let the Iranians know that, yes an attack on Israel would trigger massive retaliation, but so would an attack on those countries that are willing to go under this security umbrella and foreswear their own nuclear weapons."

2 B. GEL:  I could hardly believe my big ears when I heard Hillary blithely mention "MASSIVE RETALIATION" Why? Because it seemed that Hillary was channelling the very Republican, Presbyterian priest, SECSTATE John Foster Dulles & his buddy Admiral Radford , Chairman of the JCS. This very/very controversial doctrine of Massive Retaliation  was associated with the "New Look" of IKE’s & the Dulles/Radford related DOCTRINE OF NUCLEAR BRINKSMANSHIP. The Ike Adm. in 1953-54 made the key decision to fight no more land wars in Asia[Marines & Army troopers or Navy’s Carriers would no longer be needed]. Instead America would rely on the threat to use our superior nuclear weapons against the yellow Asian hordes. If they refused to back down, our superior NUKE WEAPONS— after all simply just big "conventional weapons"-- would vaporize the Yellow Peril, And the superior AIR-ATOMIC Power of SAC’s B-47s/B-52s, would destroy by PREVENTIVE WAR  the Red SOVIETS IN Europe. Thus "Massive Retaliation"—would bring TOTAL VICTORY home to America once more-no more Koreas & Limited Wars.  Massive Retaliation died at Dien Bien Phu when Ike refused to use nukes to save the doomed French forces there.[Spring 1954] Likewise in Europe the US did not intervene in the Berlin uprising of 1953 or in the Hungarian Revolution of 1956. The Soviet Sputnik of October 1957, ended any hope of a PREVENTIVE WAR.

   Ike in the mid-50s had warned Dulles/Radford & their ideological allies to stop using the threat of PREVENTIVE WAR—a function of US AIR-ATOMIC Superiority[1945-1955] & was implicit in their Doctrine of MASSIVE RETALIATION.
 
So what did the Air Force Association & "Defence Intellectuals do?—THEY CREATED THE DOCTRINE OF PRE-EMPTIVE WAR[more later on] which President George W. Bush made official US POLICY in September 2002. THIS BUSH DOCTRINE OF PRE-EMPTION—is beloved by the NEO-CONS –Iraq War[2003-2008] plus the  justification for the impending attacks on Iran.[More later for the vital difference between PREVENTIVE & PRE-EMPTIVE WAR—re IRAQ & IRAN & Hillary’s key votes in 2002[Bush’s authority to attack Iraq  & in 2008 for Kyl/Lieberman—a cover for Bush’s future attacks on Iran .]

  1.     A. HILLARY: "And finally we cannot permit Iran to become a nuclear power.. . . "Iran has not been deterred. They continue to try to not only obtain fissile material for nuclear weapons but they are intent upon and using these efforts to intimidate the region & to have their way when it comes to the support of terrorism in Lebanon & elsewhere."

3  B. GEL: Hillary is ignoring the recent NIE[like McCain is also doing]—which said that IRAN  stopped the specific development of NUCLEAR WEAPONS qua nuclear weapons in 2003 & wouldn’t have an IRANIAN BOMB for 5-10 years. This unexpected NIE conclusion temporarily spiked the Bush-NEO-CON rush to an attack Iran earlier this year. The Neo-CONS were furious that they no longer had a nuclear casus belli, so they emphasized Iranian- supplied SUPER IED[Copper –shaped charges] to be their new casus belli. Hillary supported this position when she voted for the Kyl-Lieberman Bill. Hillary & her spokesmen defended that vote for PREVENTIVE WAR, by claiming that her vote was "Not to be construed as a vote for pre-emptive war." But, wasn’t it for a future WAR like her 2002 vote for the Iraq War?

Now is the time to once & for all to stop the Bush-NEO-CON conflating the DOCTRINE OF PREVENTIVE WAR with the DOCTRINE OF PRE-EMPTIVE WAR .

A .PREVENTIVE WAR: THE US ATTACKS A COUNTY/NATION BEFORE that nation actually has deliverable nuclear weapons. Thus the US PREVENTS that nation from developing NUCLEAR WEAPONS. Therefore, Bush ‘s attack on Iraq, 19 March 2003 was really a PREVENTIVE WAR to prevent Iraq from developing WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION[primarily NUKES] in the future. However The Bush Adm. & Media allies sold the Iraq WAR of 2003 as a PRE-EMPTIVE WAR, to pre-empt/stop Saddam from using his NON-EXISTENT WMDS vs. the US or its Allies. Thus, Deputy DEFENCE SECRETARY WOLFOWITZ & HIS CABAL created a BOGUS WMD CAPABILITY FOR SADDAM so BUSH could claim he was waging a PRE-EMPTIVE ATTACK—much easier to sell to the American people  than  a  real/true PREVENTIVE ATTACK sometime in the future.

Hillary, did not read the slanted NIE of Oct. 2002 & voted for a PREVENTIVE WAR masquerading as a PRE-EMPTIVE WAR.

B. PRE-EMPTIVE WAR. When Hillary voted to authorize Bush to attack Iran[Kyl-LIEBERMAN] she claims it ought not to have been "Construed as a vote for preemptive war". Well, Hillary is correct—Her vote was not for" a vote for pre-emptive war." BUT it was a vote for a PREVENTIVE WAR—to prevent Iran from getting NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE FUTURE.
So what is PRE-EMPTIVE WAR? The authors of PRE-EMPTIVE War in the mid-50s,  after Ike told them to stop using PREVENTIVE WAR, based their new doctrine on GARY COOPER HIGH NOON & THE OLD WEST. The PRE-EMPTIVE Nuclear GladiatorsNuclear Warriors, would not STRIKE FIRST AS IN A PREVENTIVE WAR. No,  they would simply draw faster & shoot straighter—thanks to superior American Technology—than our Communist enemies. The idea was to draw faster & catch the Soviets Great Nuclear Deterrent on their Bomber bases or in their Missile silos. However, by the mid-1960s a sufficient part of the USA/USSR’s GREAT DETERRENT was hidden under the oceans—hence invulnerable to a PRE-EMPTIVE ATTACK—and thereby ending  all  realistic hopes of WINNING A THERMONUCLEAR WW III by a PRE-EMPTIVE ATTACK. Yet in 2002 president bush signed off on a document that made the doctrine of Pre-EMPTION—an aggressive US FIRST STRIKE—as national policy.

What are we to make of Hillary’s :"UMBRELLA OF DETERRENCE" over Western Asia? What I find remarkable & outrageous is that Hillary—or her ‘SOURCE" has borrowed Ideas for this new MEME of hers from many US PRESIDENTS, BOTH REPUBLICAN & DEMOCRATIC:

  1.      HARRY TRUMAN—THE TRUMAN DOCTRINE [1948]—US  assumes British & French roles in the Eastern MED.[Hillary puts her NUKE UMBRELLA OVER ALL OF WESTERN ASIA!]
  1.     GENERAL EISENHOWER/DULLES/RADFORD—MASSIVE RETALIATION[1954]--& Hillary promises, "massive retaliation" in the 16 April 2008 Debate]
  1.     IKE  takes over Britain/France’s  traditional role "East of Suez’’ in Western Asia.[1956]—Hillary expands America’s security protection to all of Western Asia—to "prevent" the spread of nuclear weapons.
  1.     GEORGE W. BUSH’s CONFLATING OF PRE-EMPTIVE & PREVENTIVE WAR, by Hillary’s  votes in 2002[Iraq] & 2008[Iran]
  1.     TRUMAN & IKE’S NATO NUCLEAR UMBRELLA[1949] is to replicated in Western Asia by "President" Clinton!

One of the Reaganauts favorite books in 1981-88 was U. of Chicago ‘s Dean Weaver’s  "Ideas Have Consequences"—One result was Reagan’s STRATEGIC DEFENCE INITIATIVE[SDI-STAR WARS]—the greatest "boon-doom boggle" in history. Does Hillary & her secret advisers hope that her "UMBRELLA OF DETERRENCE FOR WESTERN ASIA" turns into a similar, powerful, infectious MEME that will reinforce America’s Imperial Dreams & that of our NEO-THEO CONS for control of the oil-rich Western & Central Asia? Curious minds want to know the source of this MEME—followed by a GREAT DEBATE over this dangerous extension of an new American Security Guarantee over one of the most complex & unstable regions of Asia. [P.S. The ISRAELI GREAT NUCLEAR DETERRENT IS INVULNERABLE & MORE THAN SUFFICIENT TO DETER IRAN. Israel doesn’t need an American Nuclear Umbrella—either  Hillary’s or Krauthammer’s version! ] [GOLEM3]

Tags: Daisy, Clinton, McCain, nuclear, Pennsylvania, apocalypse, WW3 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 68 comments

  •  Looking forwrd to seeing your video (10+ / 0-)

    I cannot for the life of me figure out what Hillary hopes to gain by going down this road, especially when people are so pissed off about Iraq.  How could she be so stupid?

    •  I'm guessing (5+ / 0-)

      she knows that most Democrats will vote for her, if left no other choice, but that this might pull in some Republicans who are worried that she is too soft on national defense.  I'm only left to say - "Go Obama!"

      The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. - 9th Amendment

      by TracieLynn on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:41:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I doubt it is a strategy (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cotterperson, corvo, Scubaval

        seeing as how neither Dems or Repub Nutzis are in a hurry to get out of Iraq or Afghanistan, all the while threatening Iran- of course they want more war and will ultimately attempt to concoct a way to get Americans on board.

        Why would we even be talking about Iran otherwise? Until there is proof that their nuclear program is anything other than geared for energy production as verified by the IAEA who in the hell are we to do anything, war, sanctions, covert actions geared at regime change or otherwise?

        Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

        by borkitekt on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:46:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Iran is a danger because (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          borkitekt, Scubaval

          they don't need nuclear missiles to take out the U.S. bases in Iraq.  Our warfighters are sitting ducks.  Besides, I suspect that the missile defense they want to set up isn't going to be any good against "in coming" from next door.

          I can't imagine why Gates took the trouble to piss off the Air Force yesterday. (sorry for the non-sequitur)

          How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

          by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:08:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Iran would cease being a "danger" (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            TracieLynn, borkitekt, discocarp

            if we got out of countries where we don't belong in the first place.

            •  True that. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              borkitekt

              I need to work on clarifying when I'm presenting some other perspective than my own.

              The missile/radar installations in Iraq have been a great concern to me because there was never any way, even if the Iraqis were totally welcoming, that Russia and China were going to put up with fourteen or six USAF bases on the southern edge of Asia.
              The hubris of the Central Command and the gigantic spy installation in the "embassy" is just unbelievable--that someone would think that would be accepted.  Because they put up with the lumbering ICBMs in Turkey?

              How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

              by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:34:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  She has decided she wants to be a neocon (7+ / 0-)

      Because neocons get "respect" in Washington.  Part of the reactionary nature of the DLC/triangulation mindset is that one is always looking toward the recent past for clues about what is acceptable by the "mainstream" of think-tanks and the military industrial complex.  No matter how wrong they are, the neocons have a near stranglehold on D.C.  

      This is Hillary's way of saying "I'm a serious person. I have passed the commander in chief test."  Rightly or wrongly, she believes that passing the Commander in Chief test means proving that you're willing to bomb or invade a foreign country-- any foreign country.   You can't get into this particular fraternity until you've put yourself out there.    

      It's like having to bust a cap in somebody's head in order to join the gang. And it IS a gang she's wanting to join.

      Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

      by Mad Kossack on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:48:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She always was a neocon; (6+ / 0-)

        so was her husband, the famous bomber of Sudanese pharmaceutical factories and Chinese embassies in Belgrade.

      •  Considering that we now have (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mad Kossack

        twenty-two known traitorous high-ranking military pensioners, the commander-in-chief schtick might best be left alone for a while.

        How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

        by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:11:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  She's been groomed for years... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mad Kossack

        ...just like McCain's been groomed for years. Both are acceptable to the neocons, the power brokers who really rule this nation. And people really think they will ever let someone that isn't in their inner circle rule America, they're living in a dream world. It's not going to happen. Of course, I'm the eternal skeptic here on Dkos. Don't get me wrong. I'd love it more than life itself if Obama wins. But he's not a neocon. He doesn't have their evil ways. They'll never let him rule. He's a direct threat to everything the neocons stand for. Would you if you were them? Hence, the kitchen sink and Tonya Harding strategies. Bush. The neocons. All of the power brokers. None of them will let it happen. But I hope against hope he pulls it off, in spite of them. America is already a de facto police state. I'm out of space and even if I wrote a 10,000 word diary explaining it in greater detail, would anyone listen? Maybe, but I don't think so. People don't want to know the truth that our government and Constitution is already overthrown.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:23:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yes, that is true, every word of it. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ImpeachKingBushII

          McCain and Hillary are running for the nomination of a little-talked-about party that actually rules America-- the Incumbent Party.   Obama is not part of their plans for the future of America.   It becomes ever more apparent with each passing day and with each new media atrocity like the recent ABC debate.  

          These folks want us to have a "democracy" equivalent to what the Easy Bake Oven is compared to a modern stainless steel kitchen... a plaything that satisfies the child-like masses but in no way is as dangerous or as useful as the real thing.

          Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

          by Mad Kossack on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 09:04:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And being a full-time Dem activist... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Mad Kossack

            ...for the past ten years, and a historian who has read more books, and done more research than most others have in ten lifetimes, (I feel)it does qualify me to say these things because I also know the inner workings of our government like the back of my hand. I consider myself to be an expert on such things as the study of fascism, Nazism, Stalinism, communism, and the New World Order neocon fascism in America. I've been on this most beloved Dkos for over two years, a trusted user by kos for 17 straight months, and I would never lie about anything to any of you. You can trust what I say, MK, when I tell you America as everyone has once known it to be is no more. I've cried an ocean of tears. Why? Because I've studied the Third Reich for over 30 years, and everything I see today is reminiscent of pre-"burning of the Reichstag" 1933 Germany. Perhaps I will write a journal and publish it here to be "peer reviewed". The Truth. Just. Hurts. Too. Badly, my friends, and I really don't like having to hurt my friends. Loyalty, honor, and patriotism dictates no ther course, or alternative to me. But courage, that's the rub. I don't know if I have the courage to assault this hill. Would that make me just like the "good germans" who looked the other way, while their country went to down the one way road of destruction, if I didn't sound the alarm? Serious thought. And like all serious thoughts, most sobering.

            "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

            by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:26:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I hear ya (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ImpeachKingBushII

              I too am a trained historian, at least that is what my college degree says.  The changes in our country over the past decade are completely unprecedented in our nation's history... but NOT in the history of other nations. Everything is so fragile now.  The slightest event could have catastrophic consequences.

              I don't know what to do, other than keep myself informed and inform others as much as I can.

              Democracy has not faired well over the course of human history. Most especially has it faired poorly in nations that desired to call themselves empires.

              Bush repealed Godwin's Law with a Signing Statement.

              by Mad Kossack on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:52:35 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I really hate to say this but (0+ / 0-)

      I suspect it's what her buddy David Rockefeller wants.  She's been groomed for the slot and now she's just got to have it.

      It seems that Hillary's patience tends to run out.  Consider that the reform of the health care system in '93 was supposed to be accomplished in a 100 days!  What kind of an effort was that?  It took Dodd eight years just to get FMLA adopted.

      How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

      by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:04:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hillary is aiming this talk at the Jewish (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    zzyzx, kkjohnson, joe shikspack, costello7

    community, a perceived weakness of Obama.

    She is trying to say, I'll be tougher than Obama in protecting Israel.

    Today's problems are yesterday's solutions. Don Beck

    by Sherri in TX on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:42:30 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, but do the Jewish community (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Scubaval

      really want the protection of their state extended to Saudi Arabia?

      I, too, rationalized her comments as some campaign play.  But as I roll it around my brain, the only excuse is she's lost it and she's now bat shit crazy.  

      Please, PA, don't vote for someone who wants to push blithely on to Armageddon!

    •  Only one thing wrong with that logic... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, joe shikspack

      ...Israel is more than capable of taking care of its own self-defense. It has the premier armed forces in the region, second only to the US. It has its own nuclear arsenal.

      The neocon strategy is and has always been regional and world hegemony. The defense of Israel meme is just an excuse. Follow the oil. Follow the war profits. Bush even said "money trumps peace". Hillary's motive can't be any clearer, in my view. In the days of MAD(mutual assured destrucion)in what Hillary now calls a "bipolar world", it's as simple using as nuclear blackmail instead of diplomacy to acquire one's hegemonic goals.

      "How many divisions has the Congress"? None. How many missiles has Russia? That's the only one who can stop them. And I bet my life on they'll try, if we ever make the blunder of attacking Iran.

      "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:55:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, I think it's been China (0+ / 0-)

        that's been supplying Iran with missiles.  Russia has sent the strategic bombers aloft on patrol.

        How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

        by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:00:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Both have vested interests in what happens... (0+ / 0-)

          ...tons of cash, technology. Russia still remembers what we did in short order to all of Saddam's 1000s of T-72 main battle tanks during the Gulf War and how utterly ineffective all of their air defense missiles were against our airforce. They won't let the 2nd team blow it again. I look for Russia to strike the American heartland if we ever attack Iran. Putin is nobody's fool. He learned the lesson Stalin failed to learn, much to Russia's untold misery in WW2, when he trusted Hitler(which btw was ironically one of the few times in Stalins life that he actually trusted anyone). He won't make the mistake of trusting any potus. In fact, they already deployed their counter-missile against Bush's star wars plan last March, 2007!

          "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

          by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:07:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I expect that audience to oppose genocide (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      corvo, joe shikspack

      But genocide is exactly what Hillary "Obliterate Iran" is proposing.

      "If we believe that all humans are human, than how are we going to prove it? It can only be proven through our actions." Lt. Gen. Romeo Dallaire

      by djs on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:58:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Also, one of LBJ's favorite lines... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, Troutfishing

    ...during the 64 campaign, "A vote for Goldwater means we'll have half a million men in Vietnam". Senator Goldwater was fond of mentioning that line in later years lamenting, "Yep, some people voted for Goldwater and we ended up with half a million men in Vietnam". Turns out LBJ, not Goldwater was the warmonger after all!

    "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:45:53 AM PDT

  •  Guarding (0+ / 0-)

    thanks

    "Junkies find veins in their toes when the ones in their arms and legs collapse." - Al Gore

    by parryander on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:48:00 AM PDT

  •  Want to end the nuclear holocaust (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cotterperson

    well in the words of Albert Einstien in WWIV we'll be using bows and arrows so let's just get it over with right?

    Words escape me, but deeds are always noticed

    by utopia on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:49:35 AM PDT

  •  The view that nuking pre-nuclear states is ok (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, costello7, Scubaval

    is not ok at all.

    Watch out for the giant ground sloths.

    by cskendrick on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:49:54 AM PDT

    •  That's not what she said (0+ / 0-)

      I thought her comments were completely irresponsible, but all of them were in response to a situation where Iran used nuclear weapons on someone else.  It is not about any sort of war with Iran before that happens.

      I am a liberal and I'm damn proud of it

      by smash artist on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:52:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She voted for war with Iraq, and for Iran (3+ / 0-)

        How is defending her untenable national security views good for America?

        Watch out for the giant ground sloths.

        by cskendrick on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:53:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not defending her views (0+ / 0-)

          but lets not pretend something was said that was not.

          I am a liberal and I'm damn proud of it

          by smash artist on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:54:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So she did NOT say "I will attack Iran?" (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cotterperson, costello7

            So she did NOT say "we will obliterate them?"

            Maybe I'm not as smart as I think I am, to miss the subtleties of diplomacy in those comments.

            Watch out for the giant ground sloths.

            by cskendrick on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:55:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Speaking of "subtleties of diplomacy:-- (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              costello7

              HRC's latest mouth-froth is of a piece with her hubby's foreign policy, which included Madame Albright's jaw-dropping comment about the 500,000 dead Iraqi kids.

            •  Yeah, you can spin them if you take them (0+ / 0-)

              out of context.  Her response was in response to what she would do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons. She was speaking about what her response would be if Iran launched a nuclear strike.

              Her words definitely deserve criticism.  But we should criticize what she actually said.

              I am a liberal and I'm damn proud of it

              by smash artist on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:58:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The distinction is purely academic. (0+ / 0-)

                What matters is that she's demonstrated an unforgiveable degree of depravity.

              •  Time to show the cards (0+ / 0-)

                What she said

                1. We must deter iran from gaining nukes
                1. We cannot rule out use of force to do so but not negotiation either
                1. Presented as her own idea, the notion of extending a nuclear umbrella to allies in the Middle East. This doctrine has been the reality on the ground for fifty years.
                1. Returning to point of stopping Iran from having nukes, by whatever means
                1. If that proves impossible, accepting nuclear deterrence, distasteful as that might be.
                1. Not bothering to mention that her recourse is what has been in place for decades.

                Then there were the other comments.

                Watch out for the giant ground sloths.

                by cskendrick on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:05:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, and I GAVE that context ! (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                corvo

                Point is, Clinton accidentally promised war with Iran.

                But that's only an escalation of her previous irresponsible rhetoric from the past few days.

            •  "pre-nuclear states" (0+ / 0-)

              She said she would attack Iran if they launched a nuclear attack on Israel.  I think that would disqualify them from the "pre-nuclear" category.

              What she said was basically the nuclear deterrence strategy that worked for us through the cold war years.  Whether the strategy is still viable is a valid question to debate, but let's stick to the facts.  

              •  Speaking of facts (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Troutfishing, Scubaval

                Funny how North Korea, demonstrably nuts, has its blatant provocations ignored but even the hypothetical possibility of Iran breathing the wrong throws the doctrine of deterrence into doubt.

                But only in regards to Iran.

                Which tells me that Iran is (a) treated differently, (b) treated as a sane negotiating partner, (c) the saber rattling is just that, (d) everyone including the Israelis and the Iranians know this because (e) if anyone were to actually believe this crap they would both be destroyed not only as nation-states but as likely as nations by miscalculation.

                So basically the only one who gives serious credibility to any sort of attack on Iran, pre- or post-nuclear capability, are American armchair generals who won't have to live with anymore more onerous that $20 a gallon gasoline but consider that a fair price to be rid of the Middle East as a distraction for keeps.

                Watch out for the giant ground sloths.

                by cskendrick on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:44:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What it tells me is that the thing about weapons (0+ / 0-)

                  is a subterfuge.  Why would Iran be induced to purchase highly enriched uranium fuel for it facilities, if it's dangerous for them to have highly enriched uranium to begin with?  The only way this makes sense is if the purpose is to control the highly enriched uranium market with a monopoly/cartel situation such as the US has created with the partners in Russia.

                  What we need to keep in mind is that we have a cadre of monopolists in this country who rave about the free market but what they want in their heart of hearts is to be able to set the terms of all transactions and control whatever resources they want.  They have gotten used to having our military available to enforce the conditions of the deals they make because they've been using it for a very long time.  It used to be called gunboat diplomacy.  Now it's called globalization and, instead of treaties (which have to be ratified by congress) we have trade agreements.

                  Because the real fly in the ointment of the monopolists is the popular/participatory democracy that started flowering in the U.S. after WWII.  

                  You know, until the passage of the Federal Tort Claims Act in 1947, no citizen had recourse against any public official?  After that was passed, as if that wasn't bad enough, along came voter rights and consumer rights and government in the sunshine and the piece de resistance, the FOIA.  

                  How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

                  by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 08:07:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Last time I checked (4+ / 0-)

        Iran wasn't even working on building any nuclear weaponry.

        She could've chosen not to answer an obscene and insulting question; instead she responded with an obscene and insulting answer.

  •  Let me make two points: (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cotterperson, joe shikspack

    First, anyone paying close attention will have noticed that the Senator from New York has a very tenuous grasp on the proper tense of verbs to use, as well as which person is speaking and being spoken to.  Since she is a trained lawyer who must at one point have been familiar with the niceties of verbal specification, such as "shall" and "may" and "will" and "would," her lapses may be a consequence of having lived in the Washington swamp too long.

    Secondly, and this is more worrisome, conservative politicians in particular seem to have lost the ability to correctly identify who's actually doing what to whom or what.  So, in asserting that she's going to invade Iran, Hillary Clinton's showing definite signs of the conservative malady and that's why it's worrisome.  That she herself might actually invade a country is unthinkable--as implausible as the Air Force letting her run through sniper fire in Tuzla.

    On the other hand, it may just be another example of Hillary Clinton not knowing whom she's talking to or about.

    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

    by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:57:42 AM PDT

    •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hannah, cotterperson, joe shikspack

      Since she is a trained lawyer who must at one point have been familiar with the niceties of verbal specification

      She knows exactly what she's doing, and means exactly what she's saying.

      To imply otherwise is to imply that she's just too damn clueless or incompetent to deserve the Preznitcy anyway.

      Take your pick.

    •  I hope it is just over-the-top pandering (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cotterperson, corvo, RoCali

      Because for a Democrat to be calling for the obliteration of country. . . . why, I would leave the party if she should become its standard bearer.

      "If we believe that all humans are human, than how are we going to prove it? It can only be proven through our actions." Lt. Gen. Romeo Dallaire

      by djs on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:59:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let me get this straight... (0+ / 0-)

    So, last night I heard about Hillary Clinton's interview with ABC's Jake Tapper, aired this morning, in which Clinton stated that "If I'm elected president I will attack Iran."

    The CONTEXT was Tapper's question about Clinton's "massive retaliation" quip. But, Clinton FORGOT to use the conditional, "[I] WOULD". She said "[I] WILL"...

    Here's what she said:

    Well the question was, if Iran were to launch a nuclear attack on Israel, what would our response be, and I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran, and I want them to understand that.

    You took that to mean that if she's elected president, she intends to attack Iran regardless of whether they've launched a nuclear attack on one of our allies or not?

    Seriously?

    •  What Hillary wants and what Hillary gets (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Troutfishing

      are not always the same, but she doesn't seem to get that yet.

      As usual, she muddled her tenses and mixed up her pronouns.  Nevertheless, given the history of making mountains out of Iranian snippets of speeches, it was imprudent and careless of her to answer that way.  Hillary is well versed in not answering questions that shouldn't be answered, or should be.

      How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

      by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:24:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Clinton may be socially liberal, but (0+ / 0-)

    never forget that when it comes to the military, Bill and Hillary have both always been hawks.

    OEF/OIF vet
    I've been called a left-wing extremist because I absolutely oppose torture. I can live with that.

    by jabbausaf on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:04:48 AM PDT

    •  Actually, if you define a liberal person (0+ / 0-)

      as someone whose behavior is self-directed and practices self-restraint, it seems rather clear that neither Bill nor Hill are liberals.  Bill is incapable of self-restraint and Hill is driven to imitate people whom she considers worth emulating.
      Since her dad seems to have been keen on keeping up with the joneses, perhaps it's genetic.  
      Anyway, Hillary is a social climber.  She's been promoted by the likes of the Rockefellers and the Stephens clan and will do their bidding.  And, since monopoly is their game, that's what she'll be playing.  Remember that in the board game, people win by running others into bankruptcy.

      How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

      by hannah on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 08:45:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing

    Different in tone, but not so different in substance

    "I was absolutely clear about the fact that if Iran used nuclear weapons on Israel, or any of our allies, we would respond forcefully and swiftly,"

    "But, in some ways, this hypothetical presupposes a failure to begin with, We shouldn't allow Iran to have nuclear weapons, period."

    "I have consistently said that I will do everything in my power to prevent them from having it and I have not ruled out military force as an option,"

    "Talk using words like obliterate doesn't actually produce good results, I think the Iranians can be confident that I will respond forcefully, and it will be completely unacceptable if they attacked Israel, or any other of our allies in the region, with conventional weapons or nuclear weapons."

    http://abcnews.go.com/...

    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." Sen Carl Schurz 1872

    by Catte Nappe on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:40:25 AM PDT

  •  It was pandering to the neocon /money right wing (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing, corvo, Scubaval

    HRC was reinforcing her bonafides as being as tough and belligerent as anybody.  I fully expect a sophisticated McCain handler to prep a speech for him where he will say. "I won't promise you I won't definitely attack Iran,I won't go as far as Mrs. Clinton did heh,hehbut if push comes to shove we'll  take the appropriate action that the military situation requires".

    There. He hasn't promised a nuclear strike , but he sounds sane and sober and in charge.

    An opportunity to slip in behind as a "moderate".

    The reason of course Senator Clinton said this was to re-appeal to that base that can help her with her faltering campaign.She needs big funds and she needs some way to shake superdelegates loose to desert and come over to her. She is hoping the same interests can influence them that she needs for fundraising.

     The stupid part of the statement is that if Iran which is pursuing nuclear energy through enrichment from its 3 uranium mines (as is also Pakistan, Japan,Korea Brazil etc that is a reality check) were to have an absurd rogue program to create a "nuke" or two or a half dozen,it would be wiped out by the Israelis who ARE a nuclear power and have between 120 and 200 nukes ready to go. So there is no real threat to Israel, but there is a energy/fossil fuel/nuclear fuel market reshuffle that US companies are unhappy with. Clinton maintained the fiction the US umbrella is needed or the only nuclear power  there in the region. She made no mention of the reality on the ground.

    Difference between Democrats is some pander to the worst,and some try to talk sense. The TV/cable trad media tries hard to shut off the differences and elevate the worst. Instead of explaining and scorning the questions HRC went for the fear/wild crazy meme. It plays better,she thinks.

    that's what it comes down to.

    McCain: Unlike most Repub licans, he HAS dropped bombs on a people and country that did not attack America. It fits: Warmonger

    by Pete Rock on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:46:07 AM PDT

  •  Rec'd (0+ / 0-)

    but the video link @ the head of the diary doesn't work- took me to the " YouTube Wedding".

    Thanks.

    Stranger than fiction? At this point,the truth is stranger than japanese cartoons...

    by Remembering Jello on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 07:56:13 AM PDT

  •  Hey Trout, is the vid done yet? (0+ / 0-)

    Wondering if I missed it somewhere here?

    Another Proud Subscriber to the Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium!

    by borkitekt on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 12:33:30 PM PDT

Permalink | 68 comments