Daily Kos

I'll Never Vote Democrat Again

Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:29:32 PM PDT

Voting for me has always been a point of principle. I have always voted my conscience, and to date, the Democratic Party has represented that conscience.

The Dems have always represented the promise of America--the idea that everyone should be given an equal opportunity to succeed. The idea that we are all inherently good, and looking for the same thing--to put a roof over our heads, to live healthy lives, to feed and clothe our families, to enjoy our freedoms to express ourselves, to love those we love, and to share in our joys and our sorrows.

If the Superdelegates accept HRC's Rovian tactics, then I want to have nothing more to do with the party. Period.

The Party will no longer stand for what it used to stand for....

(more on my reasoning after the fold)

I saw a very disturbing poll on MSNBC tonight.  Over 60% of HRC supporters would not be willing to vote for Obama if he wins the nomination, while only 40% of Obama supporters would do the same. Tim Russert suggested that HRC might use that statistic to convince Superdelegates that HRC should be put at the top of the ticket, and Obama in the VP slot.

What HRC supporters (and gullible superdelegates) fail to recognize is that Obama has PURPOSELY NOT tried to destroy his opponent, unlike HRC, who is seemingly willing to destroy both her opponent and her Party.

We see no Obama ads featuring interview footage of Bill's many women who say they were intimidated by the Clintons to stay quiet.

We see no Obama ads saying, "She won't stay in her church if her pastor says bad things, but she'll stay in a marriage when her husband repeatedly cheats on her and lies to the American public...."

We see no Obama ads saying, "Hillary was the first First Lady to be subpoenaed...and her husband was both impeached and disbarred for perjury to Congress."

We see no Obama ads insinuating that Vincent Foster's suicide wasn't a suicide.

We see no Obama ads outlining her violations of federal elections laws, or how her loaning money to her own campaign constitutes a conflict of interest when the source of that money is unnamed foreign governments.

This is because, as Obama rightfully states, NONE of these things are relevant to solving America's problems.


We have REAL problems, which require REAL solutions.

Obama has taken the high road, and the Democratic Party is "better for it," in my opinion.

However, although lots of platitudes have been made about how the Democratic Party will unify because we don't want four more years of Bush, the problem is that HRC has fully embraced Bush tactics and policies in her bid for the nomination.

In the debates the other day, she willingly jumped on the Bill Ayers thing, and she injected Louis Farrakhan into discussion of Rev Wright.

HRC jumped on bitter-gate like a duck on a June bug, purposely twisting Obama's words from his criticisms of the Republican slime machine, into criticisms of AMERICANS.

HRC has threatened to "obliterate" Iran and to extend an umbrella of deterrance across the Middle East, putting most neo-cons to shame.

HRC has refused transparency in her earmarks and in the sources of her husband's Presidential Library funding.

HRC has repeatedly lied to the American people about her stances and her experience--twelve years supporting NAFTA but secretly working against it; sniper fire in Tuzla; etc.

HRC has run her campaign into the ground, shafting the small business owners that have supported her.

HRC signed a pledge that Florida and Michigan would not count, then reneged on that pledge when her numbers started to look bad.

Finally, to top it off, seeing how there is no way of winning the pledged delegate count, HRC is selling the snake oil of "popular vote" without acknowledging that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE Obama would have allocated his resources differently if the goal of the game was to maximize popular vote.

That the superdelegates would actually smoke what she is selling does not bode well for the Democrats.

And to me, it means that the Democrats are not the party that I thought they were.


I have been very dismayed that the Superdelegates have allowed things to get as bad as they have. The Party faces the very real threat of having mass numbers of people either (1) not vote, or (2) vote for a Republican.

I will be of the former type, if the Superdelegates give the nomination to HRC.

Moreover, I pledge that I will no longer vote Democrat so long as I live.

Voting for me has always been a point of principal. I have always voted my conscience, and to date, the Democratic Party has represented that conscience.

The Dems have always represented the promise of America--the idea that everyone should be given an equal opportunity to succeed. The idea that we are all inherently good, and looking for the same thing--to put a roof over our heads, to live healthy lives, to feed and clothe our families, to enjoy our freedoms to express ourselves, to love who we love, and to share in our joys and our sorrows.

If the Superdelegates accept HRC's Rovian tactics, then I want to have nothing more to do with the party. Period.

The Dems have allowed Bush to wage an illegal war that has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, harmed over tens of thousands of Americans, and displaced millions of innocent people.

The Dems have allowed Bush to funnel billion of tax dollars to political supporters via no-bid and no-accountability contracts in the War on Terror.

The Dems have allowed Bush to create a full spy state outstripping anything that Stalin or Hitler had--siphoning off every email, phone call, and internet transaction of every American in violation of the Constitution.

The Dems have allowed Bush to violate the Geneva Conventions, making the U.S. guilty of war crimes against humanity.

The Dems have allowed Bush to politicize every aspect of our government, undermining the Environmental Protection Agency, the Justice Department, the Pentagon, the Public Broadcasting System, the Civil Rights Commission, and government-sponsored research by unbiased university researchers.

The Dems have allowed Bush to bankrupt our country, making every citizen's share of the debt over $30,000.

If the Dems allow HRC's voice to carry the day, they will have nailed the final nail in the coffin.

The Dems will have allowed HRC to bankrupt out moral conscience as Progressives. And I will not stand for that.

I am already so angry at the Democratic Party for its lack of leadership against Bush's tromping on the Constitution, I simply will no longer stand by them if they allow HRC to steal this nomination from Obama.

Tags: HRC, Obama, Bush, Democratic Party, rant (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 87 comments

    •  I agree with most of your diary, but strongly (7+ / 0-)

      disagree with the title.

      Don't cut off your nose to spite your face, you'll regret it in the morning.

      "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

      by Brecht on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:39:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Tipped for the fine rant (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, koNko, Nulwee, costello7

      And to offset the hide ratings (which IMO are not appropriate - 'never voting Democrat' is very much an if/then statement).

      "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope."

      by Pacific NW Mark on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:58:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rovian Tactics? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Lujane, figgylu

      That phrase really gets on my nerves. It's like a bad bedtime story parents tell their children to scare them into behaving. Rove is an idiot, and if people can't see that, then they aren't paying attention to Mr 28%.

      Rove... sometimes I think people give him more credit than Darth Cheney himself.  

      •  You really haven't been paying (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        rimstalker, figgylu, panAmerican

        much attention these past 8 yrs., have you. :>)

        •  Sure have. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          offgrid

          And I've watched everything that Bush has done be attributed to Rove, and it's obvious that you may be one of those doing the attributing.

          On the other hand, I've always thought of him as an idiot whose so called "tactics" were anything but clever. The only thing that made them appear so were spineless people unwilling to challenge them for fear that the Rovian boogyman would get them.

          Now if you want to keep Rove on a pedestal as some "genius," then by all means do so. I'm sure Rove's ego could use it considering his track record.

      •  Not? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Kronos Blue

        That's pretty much the consensus regarding her methods, if you don't understand the term  read this  (PDF).

        Sometimes I thing people give Clinton too much credit, just like McCain himself.
        I could be wrong.

        When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

        by koNko on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:17:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the reference. (0+ / 0-)

          However, the "consensus" was reached by those that wish to read something into the man that simply isn't there. The so called "tactics" that he's used have been used by republicans for decades. It's amazing that some are just now beginning to evaluate them.

          Rove is just a man, but you'll have to admit, some have turned him into something more than that, something to be feared. And as long as people are fearing him, they can never understand him.

          From my vantage point, I see countless idiots populating republican circles. Those idiots have gained the upper hand time and again for one reason... they weren't challenged.

          We'll have to agree to disagree on this one though because I refuse to puff up the republicans in my mind so as to cloud my thought with fear, which in a sense, is the true achievement of them all.

    •  No (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bablhous, Brecht, ER Doc, Lujane

      TOP, no. You are so right and so wrong.

      Obama won't lose the nom, bullshit cowards will keep us all on tenterhooks for awhile but it will be OK.

      Don't be angry, don't be mad or frustrated. We are winning. You are winning. We're amazing and so are you. We're all good and Barack Obama deserves our support, respect and affection. He just about demands it. I fight back my own hate every day because I know that isn't what I'm fighting for, I'm fighting for what I want not against what I don't want.  

      Give everyone some mojo and  have some love for people who feel just as you do.

    •  Here's what I think... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      offgrid

      If Obama gets screwed by the superdelegates, he should just run on the Unity ticket with Bloomberg.

      With his fundraising? The Unity party would overnight become a factor in the election.

      I think this would be an appropriate response to the final corruption of the Democratic Party.

      If this happened, I am pretty sure I could not vote for Hillary. I would likely withhold my vote.

      Shake my left hand, man, it's closer to my heart. - Jimi Hendrix to Robert Fripp

      by The Lighthouse Keeper on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:27:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What the fuck is with these despair diaries? (27+ / 0-)

    Hillary fucking lost ground tonight. She needs 69% of the outstanding pledged delegates to end up with more now.

    •  Because when things don't go exactly our way (10+ / 0-)

      the world is over.

      I am a liberal and I'm damn proud of it

      by smash artist on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:33:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Probably due to waching the MSM (9+ / 0-)

      Wolf Blitzer telling people about Hillary's impressive victory and crap like that.

      Only die-hard fanatics know that she won by 8.5% LESS than her victory in Ohio at 10.3%

      Reminds me of super-Tuesday and Texas

      "Hillary won!"

      Is screamed from the roof-tops. But later on, eh maybe Obama did win, after all.

      Didn't the DLC-ers scoff when Howard Dean and the DNC put money into Mississippi?

      by Bill White on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:41:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  let me take a stab at why. (12+ / 0-)

      that it appears they're going to take away our will again.  after all of this, after all of these years of hell, of having a country whose leadership has led us straight to hell in every imaginable way - after dean, and lamont, and the 2000 supreme court, and the 2004 fraud, and the post-2006 disappointment as nothing changed even after our "huge wins" -

      after all that, we have been burned out for more than one fucking year with this intolerable crap from our own, against our own; that this despicable farce of a candidate is going to take the will of the people away, once again.

      there is no explanation why a candidate who brings tens of thousands of people together and has millions of individuals' contributions, while the other can't fill a fucking high school gym to see her and is broke, is losing.  it doesn't add up.  it doesn't look or feel right.  and even if it all is on the up and up, this should have never come this far.  and "we" cannot tolerate one more day of this farce and distraction, the media circus, the ridiculous, mindnumbing nasty campaigning.  "we" are at the saturation point.  we have been bled dry from the inside out, even as our economic stability crumbles beneath us and our freedoms vanishing without notice or trace.

      surely this can come as no surprise, that perhaps "we" have something other than laid-back smirks to express.

      62169 - which apparently means A LOT.

      by jj24 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:03:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nope. Redouble the effort. (0+ / 0-)

        Got to make NC a rout, time to get fired up again.

        Off your asses Dudes/Dudettes.

        Will be fun.

        When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)

        by koNko on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:22:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Because when our guy runs an above board campaign (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      churchylafemme, Lovo, offgrid, figgylu

      and gets his ass handed to him by an opponent most of us despise (for tactics if not content) it's not too much of a stretch to despair.

      Yes, he cut into her 20%+ lead. Yes, he's still ahead in states, delegates, and popular vote. Yes, the campaign goes on.

      But that's not enough to wash away a bit of self- pity. We need to work this out of our systems - let us wallow in it a bit tonight.

      "In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope."

      by Pacific NW Mark on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:03:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Shut the fuck up (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sja, davybaby, figgylu

    http://gameoftheday.wordpress.com/

    by sharris0512 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:30:58 PM PDT

    •  Don't troll rate him...He 's ranting . (7+ / 0-)

      Common.

      "Any road followed precisely to its end leads precisely nowhere"

      by soms on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:32:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        figgylu

        This is a community whose stated purpose is to elect Democrats.

        Posting a diary entitled "I'll Never Vote Democrat Again" (it's Democratic, by the way...) contributes to that mission exactly how?

        "Rant" or no rant, they've broken a pretty clear rule here.

        •  Everyone makes mistakes, especially when angry (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Samwoman, figgylu

          and irrational.

          Maybe this diary contributes to TheOpinionGuy voting Democrat, by allowing him to blow off steam, be called on it by the community, and then reflect on his folly (instead of bottling up his anger to fester until November).

          "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

          by Brecht on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:44:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And that's why... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Brecht, figgylu

            the comment, and not the user, is rated.

            Others here can drop whatever they want into the 'tip jar' of this, it's warranted based upon the title of the diary.

            •  Good point. I removed my recommend from soms' (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Hardhat Democrat, figgylu

              comment because, while I agree that "ranting is common", the HRs are not even hiding the diarist's tip jar, just giving him healthy feedback from the community.

              "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

              by Brecht on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:57:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah. The last mistake was his ... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Hardhat Democrat, Brecht

            Like a cyclone, imperialism spins across the globe; militarism crushes peoples and sucks their blood like a vampire. K. Liebknecht

            by Meteor Blades on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:41:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for pointing that out (0+ / 0-)

              Looks like this diarist is more interested in ranting than reflecting.

              "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

              by Brecht on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 08:21:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  :Sigh: (0+ / 0-)

                You simply don't get it.

                There's nothing to reflect on, other than the complete lack of leadership and chutzpah on the part of Dems.

                I want to believe, I really do!!

                Please, Dems give me SOMETHING, ANYTHING to believe in.

                •  Couldn't you believe in not making the (0+ / 0-)

                  Supreme Court any more fascist? And in not allowing a Republican executive branch to keep hiding all of their crimes behind bogus claims of executive privilege and "I don't remember"?

                  "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

                  by Brecht on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:36:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The Dems are facilitating it!!! (0+ / 0-)

                    But the Republicants are "hiding" ONLY because the Dems will not move against them.

                    If the administrative body of government constitutionally responsible for the impeachment process will NOT impeach, how will someone who is not empowered to do so change that?!?

                    The Dems in CONGRESS not the White House need to address the claims of executive privilege and obstruction of justice.

                    The Dems can easily call for impeachment at any time, but they WON'T.  It's very simple.

                    If the Dems want to keep me as a voting Dem rather than someone who completely checks out of the process, they must ACT in some fashion that does not impune my morals.

                    To date, the Dems have acted immorally and in violation of their Constitutional duties.

                    •  Not just the Dems: the MSM and a low-information, (0+ / 0-)

                      apathetic electorate are also to blame. Especially the MSM.

                      The Dems should have started hearings more than a year ago. That and their abdication of responsibilty to get us out of Iraq (after coming to power in 2006 on an anti-war platform) are their worst failures.

                      I agree with the basic thrust of your argument, and I'm not going to waste time defending spineless Democrats. Except to say, they're a lot better than evil Republicans.

                      We should not abandon the Democratic Party, we should work to hold it accountable. Even if that makes you feel like Sisyphus. Not voting this November is about like voting for Nader in 2000, and you know what that got us.

                      "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

                      by Brecht on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:58:05 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  But a great rant... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Samwoman, wargolem, gsenski, figgylu

        I agree.

        But I don't think Hillary has any chance whatsoever.  She needs to pay off some bills.  Then she'll quit.

        "I'm a Muse, stupid!" -Serendipity in Dogma

        by Lava20 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:38:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Nothings changed tonight (5+ / 0-)

    all that's happened is that Hillary will have an excuse to draw out the primary a few more weeks.  The final result will not change.

    Chill out.

    I am a liberal and I'm damn proud of it

    by smash artist on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:33:03 PM PDT

    •  Yep,her math is even harder now than yesterday (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      state29, figgylu, seattlegirl

      Didn't the DLC-ers scoff when Howard Dean and the DNC put money into Mississippi?

      by Bill White on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:38:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Few things changed, actually (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      figgylu

      First, it demonstrated that financial supremacy did not translate into votes for Obama. He reached his bottleneck and couldn't break out of it no matter how much cash his campaign threw away on ads. It put the "He has more money" argument to rest.

      Secondly, Obama again failed to make his case to the voters and knock out HRC out of the race despite every side being in agreement that a protracted primary could damage our POTUS chances in November.

      Finally, this gives the electorate more time to figure out if Obama will continue on making serious gaffes every other week. If he manages to survive until June without a major scandal like bittergate and j. wright preacher business, he'll have a case, albeit weak, that he is a steady candidate with no more surprises.

      Militant Agnostic. I don't know and neither do you.

      by cioxx on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:46:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Promise me one thing... (6+ / 0-)

    ....that if the SuperDipishits vote for Obama you will vote Democratic one last time....that's all I'm asking of you. One last principled dem vote.

    Pretty please.

    I tipped you.

    "Good to be here, good to be anywhere." --Keith Richards

    by bradreiman on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:35:13 PM PDT

  •  my opinion, Mr. TheOpinionGuy, is... (5+ / 0-)

    ...that your opinion ain't worth the pixels it consumed this evening.

    Chill, dude.

    The way to win is not to move to the right wing; the way to win is to move to the right policy. -- Nameless Soldier

    by N in Seattle on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:36:53 PM PDT

    •  NO... (7+ / 0-)

      he has reason to be a little pissed.

      Sometimes people get angry.  I agree with what he said.

      But there is just no way she is going to pull off stealin this.

      "I'm a Muse, stupid!" -Serendipity in Dogma

      by Lava20 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:42:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i am less confident than ever that you're right. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        figgylu

        62169 - which apparently means A LOT.

        by jj24 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:06:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not so confident either (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          marina, TheOpinionGuy

          Once she stated that McCain was more qualified than Obama to be CIC, the supers should have ended it. Since she can't amass more pledged delegates than him, why let her keep boosting the Republican campaign? Since they haven't put an end to it, I suspect they're looking for a justification for installing her.

          I love it when she says she'll support the Democratic candidate no matter who it is. What's she going to say on the campaign trail when people ask her if Obama has enough experience to be CIC? "Oh, I was just shooting shit out my blow-hole during the primary. Now is when you should really believe me."? It will be a media disaster as the Republicans run all these tapes of her dissing Obama and everyone asking her to explain how she can support him after saying that he associates with terrorists and racist ministers. It will be a mess. Why in the world would the supers let this continue?

          •  una! lol - (0+ / 0-)

            it would be so great to see HRC say "Oh, I was just shooting shit out my blow-hole"

            i used to know a una... unique name!  well, i hope we are not right, but i think tonight my tolerance turned a corner.  i perceive that we are going to have a collective shift in how we see this thing... and i hope it is constructive and not defeatist.  i see either as possibilities.

            62169 - which apparently means A LOT.

            by jj24 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:41:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  If 60% of Hillary's voters (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    defluxion10, figgylu

    OR 40% of Obama's voters will not vote for the other candidate in the GE there is no way the Dems can win the race for POTUS in '08. The math doesn't work.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:37:49 PM PDT

  •  Your fear is not warranted (7+ / 0-)

    If the super-delegates were going to throw this to Hillary they would have done so already.

    She has NO money to battle McCain between now and Denver and the super-delegates know that.

    The reason the super-delegates have not ended it in favor of Obama (IMHO) is to allow Clinton's people ample time to grieve. That will make it easier to win their votes in November.

    Look at these numbers:

    Dem Con Watch:

    The 158 delegates are divided as follows: 55 delegates will be determined by the state-wide vote, broken up into two separate groups of 35 and 20 delegates. The other 103 are determined by vote totals in each congressional district, from a low of 3 delegates in PA-9 to a high of 9 delegates in PA-2.

    Update: 12:30 AM. Clinton wins. Lead at 9.4%. Spread at 212,000 votes.

    State-wide: Clinton 30, Obama 25

    We project CD delegates at 50-43 Clinton. 10 left to be assigned.

    Have a good evening. We'll update again in the morning. Sidebars have been updated with latest Green Papers delegate counts.

    Green Papers:

    http://www.thegreenpapers.com/...

    Clinton won PA by 8.5% (less than she won Ohio) and will gain 10 or 12 delegates.

    THAT will not impress the super-delegates

    Didn't the DLC-ers scoff when Howard Dean and the DNC put money into Mississippi?

    by Bill White on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:37:55 PM PDT

    •  you are so wrong. (9+ / 0-)

      First they have not given it to Obama simply because they are praying that HRC comes up with some way so that they can give it to her.

      Second, the MSM is in fanatical HRC mode along with SNL.  I wonder if they will do a reversal sketch of that debate skit where they were pandering to Obama.  Now they are so afraid of being labeled sexist by her they are shitting their pants.  

       I say take the fucking gloves off Barack and beat her with her so called experience, that she lies about, her bullshit claim that you went negative in PA ... fuckit im so pissed at fucking idiots in PA that i can not see straight right now.  

      Six fucking weeks of hearing the message and seeing that HILLARY was the negative one, and 70 % of the people outside philly were stupid enough to buy into her fake ass bullshit.

       I talked to a man at work tonight that said he felt the same way a long time ago in the 60's and it was to be expected that some people will not listen to the truth.  /rant off

      Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! King Arthur: Bloody peasant! Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway!

      by wargolem on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:47:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, everyone else is telling you to shut up, (12+ / 0-)

    and it's true that rants get tedious. But I've had many of the same thoughts you have had.  Except I would never say that I will never vote for a Democrat again.  I will say that if the Superdelegates were  to endorse this kind of politics, I would feel a whole lot less loyalty and it would make me much more willing to consider third party candidates.  Because I would agree that, on top of the substantive issues on which Democrats have really slid in recent years, it would suggest a party that simply does not stand for much in the way of small "d" democratic principle either.

    But don't fret.  It really isn't going to happen.

    •  What substantive issues? (0+ / 0-)

      The Dems have foresaken everything that they stand for...and then some.

      Pelosi was briefed about the torture, but let it go on.

      She even took impeachment off the table when EVERYTHING that Bush has done goes against the Constitution.  

      The Dems have their last chance to redeem themselves for me.

  •  You won't be alone (10+ / 0-)

    90 percent of Black Democrats will leave the party and never come back and the party can forget the youth vote it will be gone also never to return.

    •  lets add it all up..... (4+ / 0-)

      90% of black voters, 85% of young voters, 65% of voters who have some college.  Now we have to listen to the MSM shrill on with the lies for another 2 weeks.  

      I agree though a lot of those numbers i listed will not come back because they have seen the Democrat party shoot itself in the foot time and time again.

      Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! King Arthur: Bloody peasant! Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway!

      by wargolem on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:49:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sez you (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    nehark

    The Party faces the very real threat of having mass numbers of people either (1) not vote, or (2) vote for a Republican.

    No, it doesn't, at least not unless Hillary somehow winds up leading a ticket
    that does not have Obama as VP.   Otherwise, all these people claiming that
    they will  not vote for him (or her) in November are just lying.
    They are not that stupid, not if they were ever Democrats to begin with.
    Bush is the most unpopular president SINCE THE INVENTION of that kind
    of poll,  and McCain has voted with him enough times that it is NOT even
    going to be ABOUT our guy/gal: we're just NOT the people who  lied you
    into war and doubled ALL  of the national debt, gas prices, medical insurance premiums, college tuition, the mortgage foreclosure rate, AD NAUSEAM.
    Just quit worrying (or concern trolling).

    "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

    by ge0rge on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:38:10 PM PDT

    •  You know what i consider to be a yellow dog (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      costello7, figgylu, TheOpinionGuy

      democrat.  is someone who stands for what they believe to be right.  I believe that if we were to actually nominate someone who lies, not about snipergate, but about Barack going negative which he didn't and manipulates the truth, hell i do not stand for that.  She is nothing more than a NeoCon Democrat.  I do not vote for Neo Cons regardless of party.  Sorry bub not my cup of tea regardless of who the VP is.

      I am for change and Democrat principles.  Hillary is for herself.  She could give a damn about party she is simply using OUR party as a means to an end.

      Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! King Arthur: Bloody peasant! Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway!

      by wargolem on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:54:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Will Obama supporters support HRC's nuke plan? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, wargolem, rb137

    And when word about Hillary's plan to attack Iran with Nuclear Weapons gets out into the MSM (which, unfortunately, I am not confident will actually happen since they don't seem to want to talk about real and significant policy differences - except for Countdown with KO), what do you think will happen?  Will Obama supporters still be willing to vote for a bigger hawk than McCain?  I think not.  And will this continue to help her with her "base" (whatever that is nowadays).

    •  Unfortunately, (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DemocraticLuntz, soms

      her nuke Iran plan isn't really vastly different from McCain's, so that really doesn't serve as a point of divide. Might as well vote for her nuttery if the alternative is that we get his on that issue.

      I'll vote Clinton without reservation if she wins.

      -6.00, -7.03
      Obama '08

      by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:45:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am not sure about that... (3+ / 0-)

        McCain only says "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran."  HRC tries to one-up him with "nuke, nuke, nuke Iran."  McCain at least has been in war (and, as such, first-hand knows the costs of it) whereas HRC would be just trying to prove that she is tough.  

        And she did not flinch when she said that she would be willing to use nuclear weapons to protect not just Israel but Saudi Arabia, UAE, and other countries in the region (the most unstable region in the world...now and pretty much since the beginning of time).  This is a much stronger stand than even McCain (heck, even Bush has taken).  This action by HRC would, in turn, possibly draw in China and Russia to protect Iran, and there we have it, Armegedon and the end of the human race.

        I am very afraid of Hillary Clinton.  I think I am more afraid of Hillary than McCain (though it is a tough decision...it is like asking, which do you dislike more, an AK47 or a machine gun being on the street in the hands of a criminal...both kill people ...just a different tool - same general form).

        •  Yeah, but McCain (0+ / 0-)

          will probably call our top ranking female commanders a cunt when she corrects him on Sunni/Shia in some briefing and she'll choose to nuke all of us for failing humanity by electing for the son of a bitch. And I wouldn't fault her for doing it.

          So, I'm certain we're still better off with Hillary.

          -6.00, -7.03
          Obama '08

          by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:10:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Obama has to refute the BS claims Hillary (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      figgylu

      is shrilling.  if anything his mistake was to not call bullshit about her saying he went negative

      Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! King Arthur: Bloody peasant! Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway!

      by wargolem on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:55:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, you will... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Brecht, figgylu

    I'm going to make a bold prediction! It will happen ....sometime in Nov. 08.

  •  I saw that percentage, and I think it's (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    figgylu

    out of whack from others I've seen.

    Granted, Hillary folk seem most tied to their candidate, but those defection numbers you state are way out of line.

    The worst I can recall are 29/19 percent Clinton/Obama defection percentages.

    Maybe PA is a special case, but I think that's not going to be what happens come November.

    •  The poll question was actually (0+ / 0-)

      whether you would be satisfied if the other candidate got the nomination.  60% of Clinton supporters said they would be dissatisfied compared to 40% of Obama supporters.

      On the crossover question--actually voting for the other team--the numbers were more in line with what they have been...19% to 17% IIRC.

  •  Don't let the door hit your ass... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    figgylu

    on the way out

    Superdelegates vote their conscience. That's the way the rules are set up and if you don't like the rules you are welcome to change then in the next election cycle by petitioning DNC.

    Obama signed up for this and his campaign wants to change the rules in the middle of the game by playing cute political tricks like "popular vote," "number of states won," and other irrelevant metrics that have no bearing on SD's choice.

    If you're so adamant in following strict rules where MI and FL are concerned then you should be kind enough to respect all other rules.

    Superdelegates serve a useful function, believe it or not. They are mostly elected party officials who look out for the best interests of the party. It's the barrier that keeps fringe candidates from dragging the Democratic party down with their mounting scandals prior to convention.

    Militant Agnostic. I don't know and neither do you.

    by cioxx on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:40:18 PM PDT

    •  I'm certain that you misspelled "Clinton" in your (0+ / 0-)

      second full paragraph up there...

    •  Ironic post... (0+ / 0-)

      You are right...Obama signed up for the rules..and so did Hillary. But she wants to change the rules in Florida and Michigan.

      I don't see Obama trying to change the superdelegate rules.

      You only amplified why many of us have little respect for Hillary at this point.

    •  Whoa there (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      marina

      It's Clinton who has raised the fringe metrics of "popular vote" and "big states".  Obama has always said it was a race for delegates.  He has simply argued that if he wins the most elected ("pledged") delegates, he believes he will have earned the nomination.  When he mentions that he has won the popular vote, it is because Hillary tried to make that a metric at one point.  You mention MI and FL and yet Hillary wants to try and eliminate all caucus states as irrelevant.

      Seriously.  What Hillary is suggesting Super Delegates do is election nullification.  It is no different than if the Democratic candidate were to win the election (let's say 296 electoral votes, for the sake of argument) and the electoral college awards the presidency to the losing candidate.  It's legal.  It's in the rules.  They have that right and responsibility.  But I'm guessing that wouldn't be all hunky dory with you.  Or...maybe it would.  But, by and large, I think voters would like to think their votes actually count for something.

  •  Calm down. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    boofdah, figgylu

    We've won. This "win" for Clinton will only net her 10 delegates out of the 170 that she needs to make up. And she still has to deal with strong pro-Obama states like NC and Oregon and Montana. There is no way that she will be able to make up lost ground.

  •  Relax (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    figgylu

    People make decisions when they are attacked. McCain hasn't started swinging yet, so nobody feels a particularly urgent need to beat him. Wait until the nominee is picked and almost everyone will fall in line.

    -6.00, -7.03
    Obama '08

    by johnsonwax on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:43:28 PM PDT

  •  I'm still considering the right course... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bablhous

    I've decided that I'm committed to change -- and the Democratic Party is the best platform for change today. Tomorrow, there might be a better way.

    I am a long time Democratic Party voter, but this primary brought a number of issues to light. If the party doesn't rid itself of the problems that plague it -- and soon -- there will be a more progressive party on the horizon. If the current Democrats want to follow along, that's great...but I can no longer believe that this change isn't possible.

  •  OMG!... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Brecht, figgylu

    Is this what what's his name meant by operation chaos?

  •  wait until the superdelegates DO this to complain (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Brecht, costello7, figgylu, rb137

    It's a free country. If Tim Russert and a bunch of HRC surrogates want to speculate on a brilliant (cough!) gambit to win the nomination, that is, by threatening to encourage their primary supporters to sit the election out, well, that's part of being a free country.

    Except there is no—and I mean no—evidence that any of the superdelegates are swayed by this line of argument. As far as I can tell, her superdelegates either (a) have an amicable history with the Clintons that makes their support natural or (b) honestly prefer HRC's record to Obama's, including (perhaps especially) the Iraq/terrorism votes we see mostly as blunders. When superdelegates start endorsing HRC on an electability argument (that worked so well with Kerry, you know), then we can complain. Until then, which I think means never, we're eavesdropping on the Clinton campaign whistling past the graveyard.

  •  Stop with the despairing (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, figgylu, panAmerican

    When it's all said and done, Hillary LOST HALF of her lead in Pennsylvania from a few weeks ago.

    She needed 63% voting for her. She did not get it, even from a state that has electronic voting with no paper trail.

    We on the left have too many instances of "sky is falling" attitudes when things don't go exactly as hoped.

    Please stop this nonsense and contribute to Obama or volunteer.

  •  Look at the bigger picture (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    figgylu, two sevens clash

    Yes this primary season has had lots of flying mud (mostly from Hillary), but we gotta remember...the future, the hope, the pride of our country is at stake.

    Get this through your skull, there will be many more hurt feelings before this thing is all over.  More importantly, Iraq will keep being F'ed up, and our men and women will stay in harms way.  A Democrat will bring em home.

    I don't think Hillary has what it takes to be President.  Ya gotta believe in something, and stand for it no matter the cost.  I see Obama has it...he hasn't walked away from Wright, which I think is a good thing, Obama won't just throw people away for political expediancy.  He also was against the war.  Hillary, well, I just don't see her standing up for anything 'cept healthcare.  I need more in a president than that.

    But Ill take her over McCain.

    People say that your dreams are the only things that save ya- Rebellion (lies), Arcade Fire

    by HIsoldier on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:48:58 PM PDT

  •  Hillary supporters are caught up in thr madness (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    figgylu

    In the GE they will come to their senses and vote for Obama.

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:49:42 PM PDT

  •  enough of the "I won't vote X stuff" (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    figgylu

    Heard it all before, been there, haven't done that.

    Who ever gets the nom will quickly be attacked by the Repugnants, and we will just as quickly rally around them. Period.

    Short of some miracle, Clinton is gone, done, kaput.

    "If you want to go quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." We need to go far, quickly.

    by shpilk on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:58:13 PM PDT

  •  So you prefer McCain? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    figgylu

    No matter who is nominated, the stakes are too high to walk away and allow McCain to stumble on while the same old Bush crowd continues to dismantle the Constitution. This election is not simply for us who live here in the U.S. but for all the people in the rest of the world who are now being damaged by Republican policies. You may not like Hillary. You may despise her. But the Bush people are out there actually torturing and killing people. It doesn't get any worse than that.

    •  and... (0+ / 0-)

      ...and Hillary Clinton just stated that she would "OBLITERATE" Iran if they attacked Israel.  Sorry, but I think threatening a nuclear war in the Middle East is scarier, more irresponsible, and more maniacal than anything McCain has said!

      We are the ones we have been waiting for...

    •  The Dems have allowed it (0+ / 0-)

      Pelosi knew about the torture, but allowed it.

      The Dems could have forced the military to leave Iraq, could have arrested Rove for outing a CIA agent, and so forth.

      The Dems don't DO anything.

  •  African Americans, bitter whites, and the youth.. (6+ / 0-)

    will be the new face of a real third party.  The old party appears to prefer suicide to angering the queen.  If they don't find their spine, it's time to turn our backs and let them  empty both barrels into the roof of their party's mouth.

    •  well - there's the corporocratic establishment (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bablhous, HillarysWar

      (name that demographic at your peril) and then, there's everyone else and all of us, fighting for the crumbs left over.

      we are the majority; but we are not in control.  it's always been this way, but we've been taught we live in a democracy.  it would have been better to have not had so much smoke blown our direction, i suppose.

      but never mind with what should have been; i agree to your point completely and wholeheartedly... and i have no problem turning my back on this queen.  if she requires the letter D, that's no long-range problem for me.  the problem will become, however, how to create that third party in the midst of such far-reaching control of that one-party oops - two-party system.

      62169 - which apparently means A LOT.

      by jj24 on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 11:15:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Perfect... (0+ / 0-)

    I couldn't agree more!

    We are the ones we have been waiting for...

  •  you don't deserve the hide comment rating (0+ / 0-)

    ...for expressing your anger.  I share that anger.  

    There might be a third way, however, to resolving these conflicts.  I propose that Democrats crash the gates and take back their party -- wait, that's already been proposed by Kos.

    We are going to have to repopulate the Democratic party and turn it around.  It is my hope that you will be among those who bring new life to our democracy and to our party.

    Don't get mad, get even.  C'mon now, chin up.  We're making progress.  

    It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. Alfred Adler

    by Quicksilver2723 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 12:05:42 AM PDT

  •  'vote Democratic' (0+ / 0-)

    I don't know what 'vote Democrat' means, but I think you mean 'vote Democratic' or 'vote for a Democrati'

    --Your Local "ic" Cop

    -5.63, -8.10 | Impeach, Convict, Remove & Bar from Office, Arrest, Indict, Convict, Imprison!

    by neroden on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 01:10:17 AM PDT

  •  It would certainly be insulting if Obama (0+ / 0-)

    would win the most delegates but be told he can't sit at the head of Massa's table, must use the back door to  the big house, or go to the back of the bus (the analogies are endless) and be VP.  Wasn't it Clarence Thomas who used the phrase "High Tech Lynching but a lynching none the less"?

    •  Add to that the lack of response... (0+ / 0-)

      ...to the Rev Wright lynching.

      The Dem leadership has all but foresaken Black America.

      They allowed, without ever opening their mouths, the outright attack of a major black leader.

      If the Superdelegates tell Obama to get in the back of the bus, the Democratic Party is over.

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