Daily Kos

How Kentucky, West Virginia and Racism Could Screw Up the Clinton Exit

Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:42:49 AM PDT

From journalist Elizabeth Drew:

At first, a large number of superdelegates planned to announce their support for Obama following Super Tuesday, but he didn’t do well enough to warrant that; then it was to be after Ohio and Texas; then after Pennsylvania; and some Democrats suggest that if Obama wins both Indiana and North Carolina a number of superdelegates will announce for him then...

"We may have to go to June, and whoever ends up with the most delegates wins," a key Democrat says. "Meanwhile, the attention will be on the battle she can’t win, so why is she doing this – from here on out she’s only bleeding the party. The right way to put it is, ‘This is a war of attrition and it’s obvious that the numbers aren’t going to add up, so what’s the point?’" He added, "The hope is that at some point the superdelegates will get frustrated and join the Obama bandwagon."

Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Howard Dean are talking about sending a letter to superdelegates urging them to go public with their endorsements.  Rahm Emanuel is talking about the end game.  And despite winning Pennsylvania, Clinton probably needs close to 70% of the remaining superdelegates to get the nomination, while Obama will probably need little more than 30% to put him over the top.  Obama is polling well ahead of Clinton in North Carolina, and his odds of winning Indiana appear pretty good.  

Just about everything points to Obama locking up enough pledged and superdelegates in the next few weeks to secure the nomination.  But Kentucky and West Virginia could cause him some problems.  

Way back in February, the day of the Potomac Primary, I wrote that what happened in the mountains of Virginia and Maryland could presage what would happen in the Appalachian parts of other states.  Clinton pulled up to 90% in some of those counties, and she's won the Appalachian regions of every state contested.  

In the 1960's, one out of three people in Appalachia   lived poverty, per capita income was 23% lower than the national average, and the region was rapidly losing population.  In 1963 the Appalachian Regional Commission was created by Congress and President Kennedy to address the problems in the area highlighted in the map.  Since the 1960's counties near Atlanta, Huntsville AL and Pittsburgh have become wealthier much more developed.  But much of the region remains well below national standards in most measures of economic and social well-being.  

The region also has given Barack Obama by far his lowest share of the vote; this map by Kossack Meng Bomin shows that outside of Arkansas that Clinton's biggest wins (depicted in red, vs the Green Obama counties) have almost all been in Appalachia:

Why?  

George Packer offers some evidence that in Appalachia it's racism:

On Wednesday, I was in Inez, Kentucky, the Appalachian town where L.B.J. declared war on poverty forty-four years ago this month. John McCain was on a tour of "forgotten places"...After [McCain's] speech, I left the county courthouse and crossed the main street to talk to a small group of demonstrators holding signs next to McCain’s campaign bus. J. K. Patrick, a retired state employee from a neighboring county, wore a button on his shirt that said "Hillary: Smart Choice."

"East of Lexington she’ll carry seventy per cent of the primary vote," he said. Kentucky votes on May 20. "She could win the general election in Kentucky." I asked about Obama. "Obama couldn’t win."

Why not?

"Race," Patrick said matter-of-factly. "I’ve talked to people—a woman who was chair of county elections last year, she said she wouldn’t vote for a black man." Patrick said he wouldn’t vote for Obama either.

Why not?

"Race. I really don’t want an African-American as President. Race."
What about race?

"I thought about it. I think he would put too many minorities in positions over the white race. That’s my opinion. After 1964, you saw what the South did." He meant that it went Republican. "Now what caused that? Race. There’s a lot of white people that just wouldn’t vote for a colored person. Especially older people. They know what happened in the sixties. Under thirty—they don’t remember. I do. I was here."

Everyone knows that race is a factor in Obama’s low vote among older whites, though reporters say that no one will admit it personally. In Eastern Kentucky, people (and not just J. K. Patrick) admit it personally, without hesitation or apology. It’s impossible to say how much this has affected the primary or will affect the fall election. For voters like those I met in Inez, the objection to Obama has nothing to do with Reverend Jeremiah Wright or, God knows, Bill Ayers. There’s nothing Obama can do about it. He can’t even mention it.

Many pundits have declared that Obama has a "race problem," or a "working class problem," or more specifically a "white working class" problem.  Meng Bomin's map doesn't suggest a racial problem; Obama has done extremely well in many parts of the country that are almost entirely white, including several places with primaries instead of caucuses. According to Obama campaign manager David Plouffe:

I think if you look at -- we have won white voters, particularly white voters under 60, in a lot of states. We've won white men voters in most of the states we've competed in, and, you know, again, if you look at our favorable/unfavorable ratings and the characteristics and the traits with some of these voters that have voted for Senator Clinton in recent primaries, you know they are strong and they are going to be supportive of us in the fall.

Most of the white voters voting for Hillary Clinton will enthusiastically vote for him in the fall.  A good chunk of the Clinton vote is women, and there's little to suggest that they would shift from her to McCain instead of voting for the Democratic candidate, as women have been doing for decades.  No, Obama doesn't have a racial problem.    

It appears that Appalachia has an Obama problem.

If doing well in Appalachia—which has only about 18-20 million of the almost 300 million people who live in America—were necessary for an Obama win, he would be in deep trouble.  But there aren't enough people in Appalachia to present a big problem, especially since the region makes up a relatively small part of the population of most of the states it touches.  (The Appalachian counties of Pennsylvania are a bit different than the rest of the region, as they are much more Catholic than the rest of Appalachia and more ethnically diverse, with a decent number of Italians, Slavs and Germans mixed in with the most Scots-Irish and descendants of the 18th century immigrants from the English backcountry that dominate the rest of Appalachia.  Those counties, in fact, are the only part of Appalachia where Obama did OK, and actually improved on his performance over similar counties in Ohio).  

The two big exceptions, however, the two states in which Appalachia dominates, are Kentucky and West Virginia.

Based on the results of the primaries up to now, and for reasons suggested by Packer's interviews, we can see that Obama will not do well in West Virginia or Kentucky.  And that's a problem for perceptions, because even if Obama wins North Carolina and Indiana, Clinton and her surrogates are likely to trumpet the West Virginia and Kentucky results as proof that Obama can't win white voters, and offer the results as a rationale for her to stay in the race.  

If the discussion were limited to Appalachia, Clinton might have a point about the importance of her relative strength with white voters.  But increasingly, in presidential elections, Democrats can't win Kentucky, and West Virginia is also trending strongly Republican.  In 1992 Bill Clinton won Kentucky by 3 points, but against Bob Dole he barely hung on for a win of less than one point.  Despite winning the popular vote, Al Gore—from neighboring Tennessee—lost Kentucky by 15 points, and Kerry lost it by 20.  Frankly, Kentucky is not part of a map that shows a narrow Democratic win.  If any Democrat were to win Kentucky, it would be part of a landslide win.  

Even West Virginia, once one of the most Democratic states in the country—it voted for Dukakis and was one of the six states won by Jimmy Carter in 1980—is now moving in to Republican territory for Presidential years.  It's not as Republican as Kentucky, but like Kentucky it's unlikely to go Democratic regardless of the Democratic nominee, even if it were Clinton.  

The press, however, will lap up the talking points of the pundits, Clinton spinners (and Republicans) that losing Kentucky and West Virginia means that Obama won't do well with White voters, when it really means voters in Appalachia aren't ready to vote for a Black candidate, even though in most of the rest of the country they are.  

I disagree, obviously, with Packer's conclusion that Obama's race is a serious political problem; I think it's only a serious problem if he needed majorities in Appalachia or he was trying to appeal to streadfast Republicans who vote Republican for, among other reasons, racism.  Nevertheless, his advice is still sound:

McCain began his speech in Inez by saying, "I’m not the son of a coal miner. I wasn’t raised by a family that made its living from the land or toiled in a mill or worked in the local schools or health clinic. I was raised in the United States Navy, and, after my own naval career, I became a politician. My work isn’t as hard as yours." His modest disclaimer seemed unnecessary—the local pol who introduced McCain had just finished calling him a son of Kentucky at heart, and the crowd was entirely on his side. But for Obama, who’s bound to strike people in places even less isolated than Inez as alien, this kind of self-presentation might be essential. Rather than analyzing them out loud, or pretending to be one of them, he should speak about the differences (and race is far from the only one) directly, candidly, in the blunt, personal language that made his Philadelphia speech so memorable. He should say that in spite of these differences, in spite of what he doesn’t know about or share in their life, he knows what Presidential leadership can do to improve their lives—as did Roosevelt, who was an aristocrat, and Kennedy, who was rich and Catholic.

  • ::

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Kentucky, West Virginia, Appalachia, President, Racism, Democratic Primary (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 612 comments

  •  red-green colorblind (12+ / 0-)

    Could someone post a similar map with different colors? Red-green colorblindness makes it useless to me.

    jaiapprovedthis - what I lack in classiness I make up for in being right.

    by Jaiwithani on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:46:43 AM PDT

    •  Try here: (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jaiwithani, bythesea, Osaka, miss SPED

      major combat operations have ended in iraq the 2008 democratic primary. (05/06/08)

      by haruki on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:48:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Follow the mountains in your mind (0+ / 0-)

      from upstate NY through Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma and the Texas panhandle.

      Michigan is also red, but it wasn't a real election.

      South Texas and the imperial valley of California have a "redneck" Hispanic mix which is different from Appalachia, but similarly red.

      "It's the planet, stupid."

      by FishOutofWater on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:56:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The way I read this diary, (20+ / 1-)

        it isn't "white people" that Obama has a problem with; it's ignorant backwater racist Appalachian white trash that Obama has a problem with.

        I think that is a hard but true statement. Thus, Obama adopting an even more populist message or denouncing Rev. Wright even harder is not going to change the minds of these ignorant Appalachian racist backwater white trash types.

        Fortunately, these Appalachian backwater types are mostly in deep red states that we don't need to win.

        Obama will shine nicely with the moderate white voters in the new midwest swing states, so to hell with Appalachia.

        •  The bigger problem doesn't lie in Appalachia. (20+ / 0-)

          Rather, it lies with the silent super delegates who know full well that Hillary doesn't have a realistic chance of winning the nomination and that she's bleeding our chances in the general election.

          A year ago, nobody would've thought that winning over white Appalachian voters is a necessary condition for getting the nomination. And nobody should think it now, either. The only reason that idea will get some play is because of the HRC campaign and the peculiarities of this primary race.

          If Obama wins both North Carolina and Indiana (and maybe even if he only wins the former and narrowly loses the latter), then those heretofore uncommitted super delegates who want to win in November should immediately declare their support for the nominee. Otherwise, they're going to give Hillary room to argue for the illusion that winning over white Appalachian voters is an essential criterion for our nominee, which is ludicrous.

          "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

          by machopicasso on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:55:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If Obama wins both North Carolina and Indiana, (9+ / 0-)

            the Dem SD's and the Dem leadership will realize en masse that Hillary is dead meat and that it will be time to end the primary race, no matter what Hillary and the MSM cable punditry says.

            Hillary and the MSM cable punditry ARE irrational, but the Dem SD's and the Dem leadership are not.

            •  That doesn't explain the conduct of the SD's (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              BoyBlue, MAORCA, Black Magic Woman

              up to this point. The fact that Hillary doesn't have a realistic chance at winning has been in place for some time. So, considerations of rationality would seem to dictate that the SD's go ahead and rally around Obama. (I actually think the reasons for the reluctance of so many of the SD's to endorse Obama are far more complicated but nevertheless inexcusable). In short, the reasons for the SD's to "realize en masse" that Hillary can't win will have been in place long before North Carolina and Indiana hold their primaries.

              "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

              by machopicasso on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:41:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  They don't want to be seen (6+ / 0-)

                as giving the nomination to EITHER of them. They want this to be the voters' choice, not THEIRS.

                And rightfully so.

                After NC and IN, when the remaining contests make it clear that even if she won every single remaining delegate (which is most definitely not going to happen), they'll start declaring.

                Then, it will be the last few primaries that put Obama over the top, NOT the superdelegates.

              •  Look (0+ / 0-)

                if they move too soon, from the view of HRC supporters, it will be seen as "pushing her out".  The wisest thing is to wait until a big loss, or until it's really just over.  I'm frustrated too, but it is wiser to let her go down in flames, despite the damage she may be doing, than to "force" her out.  Sigh.

                Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67

                by bythesea on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 12:46:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  They already know she's toast (0+ / 0-)

              She cant win

              She's trying to destroy obama and run in 2012. And thus save the DLC corporatist scum who know damn well this is their waterloo.

              We cant let that happen and if the machine democrats werent cowardly scum they'd step up.

              I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ

              by cdreid on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:18:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I agree that we have reached the highest level (9+ / 0-)

            of absurdity when the notion that "Appalachia has an Obama problem" is even a consideration. It is true that there are undereducated people in certain communities in certain states who won't vote for Obama because of his skin tone.  I've driven through many of those areas---I've seen the confederate flags on poles outside deteriorating housing----and on the pickups with gun racks---although there are fewer sightings every year.  But what does that have to do with this election?  We're supposed to consider the prejudices of a few and pass on the best candidate in decades because ignorant hate still exists in some places?
             I just watched Obama in Anderson, Indiana, which is not that far from the Kentucky border.  It looked like he had a whole roomful of that older white demographic there approving and applauding him.  I choose to see this increasing occurrence as the stronger consideration.    

            •  We would do better to assume (7+ / 0-)

              that race is definitely going to be a factor in the general election, even where it wasn't in the primaries and caucuses.  There is nothing we can do about those voters who would never vote for a black candidate except outnumber them.

              So far it's seemed that Obama does best with educated whites, blacks and youth.  If we concentrate our efforts on getting these people to the polls in November - especially young voters who are most comfortable with "viral marketing" and the tools that make it so powerful - we can outnumber the yahoos.  Most of the remaining Democrats, women and Hispanics, will come along, and the totally torn will stay home.

              Make no mistake:  In the general election, the yahoos will come out of the woodwork to vote for the Republican, as it's now obvious that the Democratic party is not the old racist Democratic party it used to be.  Oh, and see if we can't get Robert Byrd to stump for Obama in West Virginia.

              "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

              by SueDe on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:36:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  SueDe (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                MadEye, truong son traveler

                Senator Rockefeller and Rep. Nick Rahall are stumping across WV for Obama, including Rockefeller at the opening of the Martinsburg Obama headquarters today. Obama's campaign has NINE headquarters across the state and numerous paid staffers working here.

                In addition, at the county conventions held earlier this month, Democrats elected by a 3-to-1 margin Obama delegates over Clinton delegates to go to the state convention in Charleston in June. In my county, Berkeley, it was 50 out of 52 delegates for Obama.

                What that shows is the enthusiasm gap in WV between Obama and Clinton. The Democratic chairs and activists are nearly all in support of Obama across the state despite the fact the polls show Clinton leading by a comfortable margin.

                The Obama volunteers have been much more active at voter registrations, canvassing and phonebanking. While the polls show Clinton ahead, polls ain't votes in a primary.

                By comparison, look at the "effort" from the Clinton campaign.

                These are comments from HillaryClinton.com's West Virginia page, Clinton's supporters:

                • I signed up months ago to volunteer for Hillary here in WV.  I have never been contacted.  I am concerned with the BO presence I am seeing in Charleston and so little Hillary presence.  Let's get things going for Hillary!
                by west virginia for hillary at 4/14/2008 7:32:21 PM

                o Rally
                Does anyone know of any planned rally or event.  There is no organization.
                by touche at 4/22/2008 6:10:44 PM

                I took the advice of fellow posters and have signed up again as a volunteer.  My son and I are also traveling to PA this weekend to help in Pittsburgh.  We also want to be active here in the Charleston area.  I would like to organize some honk/wave groups at major intersections at least for the weekend/Monday before the May 13th primary.  Plus, can we get some signs around Charleston and at some other key locations in the state?  I just spent 8 hours on the road (traveling in WV) and did not see one Hillary sign.  BO signs are all over the east end of Charleston.(emphasis mine. carnacki)  I don't mean to be negative, but I want those who quietly support Hillary to know that there is strong, active support for her in WV.  Thanks WV campaign staff for doing what you can.  
                by west virginia for hillary at 4/17/2008 5:27:22 PM

                I am originally from WV and have HAVE campaigned in NY where I live and in Ohio and PENN.  I HAVE TRIED TO GET SOMETHING GOING IN THE MERCER AND SURROUNDING COUNTIES AREA, BUT NOTHING IS HAPPENING.  THE MAYOR OF HINTON IS WITH ME, BUT OBAMA HAS A REAL HEAD START.  WE CAN'T LOSE THIS STATE.  THE NEW CAMPAIGN MANAGER HAS NOT RESPONDED TO MY MESSAGES FOR HELP.  ANYTHING GOING ANYONE KNOWS OF PLEASE POST.  WE MUST WORK FAST!!!!!!!QQQQ
                by touche at 4/22/2008 12:43:03 PM

                I don't believe Clinton will lose, but by the best estimates of those who've really looked at the numbers and the way WV's primary is set up is Clinton gaining +2 to +6 in delegates - nothing at all to cause a dent in Obama's delegate lead, and certainly nothing to prompt such concerns that WV will trip up the effort to show her that she has no chance to gain the nomination.

                "There is nothing more stimulating than a case where everything goes against you." S.H.

                by Carnacki on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 05:35:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I don't think they will vote for him though (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              MAORCA

              I mean the older whites there,applauding. We will never know as people always withhold the race vote from pollsters. They are there just to check him out I guess

              •  Disagree----I see evidence of the opposite all (4+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Sue, rivamer, MAORCA, independo

                over the place.  Many of Obama's most enthusiastic supporters are the older white types---just not the ignorant older white types----and I know well of what I speak.

                •  Evidence (4+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  cdreid, rivamer, dotster, MAORCA

                  May I present two "older white types" who're enthusiastic Obama supporters: my 68-year-old, Deep-South-born-and-bred husband and me (ditto)!

                  Sue (now in Kentucky)

                  •  Anecdotes are not statstics (0+ / 0-)

                    Stastically, there's a lot of white people in Appalachia (and the South) who won't vote for a black guy.  That doesn't mean everybody who lives in those areas is a racist, just that a lot of people who live in those areas are.

                  •  I'm canvassing in western KY (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    MadEye, ms scarlett leadpipe

                    This is my third weekend knocking on doors most of Saturday and Sunday.

                    Yes, there are older (and younger) racists.  I even talked to a young multiracial (mostly Native Amer.) man today who said he was staunchly for Clinton because he believed Obama was saying racist things--he said he could tell because he had a lot of racial animosity himself because of the way his racist white grandmother treated him.  I have talked to older individuals of both genders who are worried about the Blacks "demanding" things if Obama is elected.  One man said today he wouldn't vote for Obama for dogcatcher.

                    And the only other Obama canvassers I am working with are a white couple in their early 70's.  (We are getting some more volunteers on board next weekend). They are very much in the tank for Obama and absolutely detest Clinton.  There are lots of Clinton haters around this region too.  It isn't unusual to hear people saying they hate all of the candidates and are thinking about not voting.  

                    Obama has a problem not only in eastern KY but here in western KY, and evidently a lot of this is because of films shown by ministers in their churches smearing Obama.  He is widely still viewed as a muslim and closet terrorist.  There are lots of Republicans around spreading viral emails.  My husband gets them from his tennis partners weekly.

                    But I'm going to keep plugging away and I have already changed some undecideds to Obama.  We will do whatever we can to help him close his margins here as best we can. And I have found Obama supporters in the Black, white, and Hispanic communities here, from the young and old, from the low-income to the middle class.  In fact, so far in  the small town I'm working in there have been more Obama supporters from low-income whites than the middle income/educated neighborhoods.  I have hit some very motivated low-income white voters who absolutely hate Bush and are strong Obama supporters.  

                    If anything can help us, it is the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq sentiment, which is pretty strong and pervasive in this part of the state.

            •  Racists have the ability to vote (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              MAORCA, Jezreel

              If they exist in large enough numbers to swing the election (in PA in particular they might), it's a valid argument, even though it's an ugly one.

        •  Hold up there (19+ / 0-)

          I've spent a fair bit of time in Appalachia (and grew up in Kentucky) and this is a really awful way to tag folks. To start with, Appalachia isn't the deep south. There were not plantations or widespread slavery there (wage slavery yes, but that's another story.) In my experience the folks in Eastern Kentucky are hard-working, kind, generous and only "ignorant" about some things that don't apply to their own lives.
          And has been pointed out more than once on this site, the term "white trash" (a label I've been tagged with more than once, and even occasionally used as a badge of pride) is a racist statement--it implies ALL Black people are trash but it takes a special kind of white person to be trash.
          You might want to look closer at why Appalachia is suspicious. I would put out there that there is widespread blame placed on Blacks because they believe they got the piece of the pie that Appalachia was promised by two Kennedys in a row. They're not even entirely wrong--promises were made and not kept. What's wrong is the explanation, but that one's been carefully sold to poor whites the nation over.
          I actually think that if folks in Appalachia met Obama they would like him. But they would still be suspicious and rightfully so--they liked the Kennedys too (you used to see JFK and RFK photos alongside Jesus in many mountain homes back in the 70s) but it didn't do them much good...

          Political Compass says: -8.88, -8.67
          "We never sold out cos no one would buy."--J Neo Marvin

          by expatyank on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:08:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Appalachia isn't the deep south. (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Geotpf, aitchdee, dogemperor, BoyBlue

            Correct.

            It's worse than the deep south.

            I think that the deep south has improved a lot more re acceptance of black people than Appalachia has.

            •  Isolation (9+ / 0-)

              There's a huge difference between the racism characteristic of Appalachia and of the deep south.  In Appalachia, it's xenophobia that reflects their isolation -- Magoffin County, KY, is the whitest county in the country, 99% identification as white.  A dozen other Eastern Kentucky counties are within spitting distance of that number.  It's not like the deep south where racism is imbued with a resentment over dominance lost.

              In the context of Obama, that doesn't make a huge difference.  Though even in general elections, Eastern KY counties tend to go Democratic -- only Union County in the Northeaster part of the state is reliably Republican, and that's in large part because they never let go of their civil-war era attachment to the Union.

              It's a bizarre state.  All I can do is shrug, and work to change it.

              •  funny thing is... (0+ / 0-)

                ...that there are an awful lot of "white" folks on the eastern side who, um, aren't that white. I saw plenty of folks to whom the name "Melungeon"could obviously be applied when spending time there but of course I didn't do that, it's considered a rude term by some. Did you know "99 percent white" Magoffin County is supposed to have one of the highest rates of mixed-ancestry folks in Appalachia? You wouldn't know it from asking them census questions of course; indeed, I think that 99 percent falls into the "methinks you protest too much" category, but I understand why given the long history of anti-Melungeon discrimination, most of it by outsiders not locals. Abe Lincoln's opponents tried to tar him with that brush (literally), and it was probably true. Which might mean Obama won't be the first mixed-race guy from Illinois to become president.
                I did meet some regular Black folk up the hollers as well, people who had been there for generations and did something you never saw on my end of the state--attended church with their white neighbours.

                Political Compass says: -8.88, -8.67
                "We never sold out cos no one would buy."--J Neo Marvin

                by expatyank on Tue Apr 29, 2008 at 04:04:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Who the hell do yuo think you are? (5+ / 0-)

              Some sort of Appalachian expert? One funny exception to  your reasoning is that  Appalachians- IN KY OR WV didn't fight for the south for the right to keep humans of african descent in bondage. Racism can exist anywhere and everywhere.

              You want to know why Obama has a credibility problem with white voters? Its because of regionalist bigots like you who discriminate a whole area of this country.
              Funny thing is, I'm supporting Obama and I know so many people who would if they actually knew who he was. He hasn't been here so he's question mark. This "racism" is really about a lack of knowledge of who the hell he is. That is his problem not ours.

              Learn something about your country especially before you go out and say something as stupid as that in public. I think you know where to stick your Bonzo.    

              •  We are talking statistics (6+ / 0-)

                In Appalachia, there is a much larger than average number of racist whites who won't vote for a black guy.  Period.  I think the map above shows that pretty clearly.

                That doesn't means everybody who lives in that area is a racist.  Just that if you took 100 people in Appalachia, and 100 people from basically anywhere else in the country, even a rural part of the country, and asked them annoymously, privately, if they were winning to vote for a black guy, many more in the first group would say no than in the second.

                •  And you are? (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  cdreid

                  Mr. Polling expert. Has there been a racist survey finding out the hotbeds of racism?

                  Could it possibly be that since this place is extremely white that cultural misunderstanding can take place? It is like saying that if you don't live in a multi-cultural region your a racist.    

                  Obama doesn't get his votes for free for being black or else the white people who don't vote for him are somehow racist, which I think. Like any candidate you gotta earn the damn votes. I refer to my earlier response the Bigot Bonzo.

                  Look again before you play third rate sociologist hack.

                  •  and I add. (0+ / 0-)

                    Oh of course it doesn't mean everyone is a racist.. oh no no no. There is just racists everywhere around the non-racists. Give me a break. This vote is not referendum on whether you're racist or not. Obama had a bad campaign plan and got pounded for it by Clinton. Not an Appalachian problem, his problem.

                    •  Uh huh. (4+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Christin, MadEye, FenderT206, Jezreel

                      Obama had a bad campaign plan

                      Uh huh.

                      That is why Obama went from 20 points down nationally vs. Clinton to now beating Clinton consistently in the national polling.

                      That is why Obama has 4 times the cash of Hillary, who had boasted at the beginning of the primary that her war chest would crush any opponent.

                      That is why Obama has significantly more total delegates than Clinton, in a primary race where the delegate count is the sole metric for victory.

                      •  Yeah Piss poor (0+ / 0-)

                        Yeah it was a bad campaign plan. You can't advertise your way into victory every time.

                        Clinton ran a helluva campaign against him PA. The faster Obama supporters own up to that, the faster he gets this nomination which is what we want.

                        •  Hillary won in PA because Obama cannot (5+ / 0-)

                          eviscerate Hillary the way that Hillary is doing to Obama.

                          You see, Obama is trying to preserve some harmony within the Dem party, while Hillary is willing to drive the Dem party into bloody civil war.

                          All Obama would have to do is to remind the voters that Hillary's husband is a sick f*ck who runs around the oval office with his pants down to his ankles, exposing his juicy red boner to women his daughter's age, done all under the same roof where both his wife and daughter live (the WH).

                          What I am saying is that Obama is not reaching into the bottom of the slime barrel, while Hillary is, and

                          THAT is why Hillary won in PA!

                          •  um (0+ / 0-)

                            is that going to be why John McCain will win in November?

                          •  Umm, as a resident of PA, (3+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Hillbilly Dem, FenderT206, dogemperor

                            as someone who thus had a dog in this fight, and as someone who has spoken with many who voted for each of the candidates here, I would say that Obama's reticence to play dirty was one of the least of his challenges here.  Abarnes3 is right on this one -- the campaign needs to do a lot of work on its message, especially with the more conservative demographics, because right now the campaign doesn't own that message, the opposition does.

                            Okay, now you can flame me.

                            •  But all the messaging in the world . . . (0+ / 0-)

                              won't overcome political machines, and Pennsylvania had them in spades mobilized for Clinton.  The machine mobilization for Clinton in PA was matched elsewhere only in Ohio (governor and mayors) and in California (Mayor Villaraigosa).  These machines are still crucial in primaries.

                  •  a "cultural misunderstanding" ?? (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Christin, dogemperor, Jezreel

                    Yeah, and what we have here is a "failure to communicate".

                    Obama doesn't get his votes for free for being black

                    an example of racist code if I ever heard it.

                    •  Hehe (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      dogemperor

                      hehehehehe... hahahaha- you're racist radar spotted me.

                      The problem is I've already voted for Obama. But the problem is you and your ignorant "enlightenment".

                      Find a real reason to complain about obama losing Appalachia , like only coming to WV twice in three years. How do you win votes that way? Yeah that's
                      right, you earn votes by showing up.

                      They aren't given to you simply because it is the feel-good moment of the year.

                      I realize he piss-poor campaign in Ohio and in PA and because large swaths of rural white voters didn't vote for him, that is his problem (or apparently yours) not ours.  

                •  Thats completely factually impaired foolishness (3+ / 0-)

                  I've actually BEEN to these places and talked to these people. Have you? NAME a town east of the mississippi. Theres a 90%chance ive been there and talked to people there.

                  This regionalist stereotyping Garbage you and others are spouting is exactly the same thing as racism.

                  There is racism everywhere. The problems in the apalachians are im sure partly due to it but then what area elected Juliani. Schwarzeneiger. Reagan. Et al?

                  The reason the rural areas tend republican are due mostly to democrats 1. dismissing and insulting rural people just like you are. 2. Gun control. 3. A certain faction of far right wing religious nuts. 4. The democratic party selling out the working class in favor of the big money the DLC corporatists brought in.

                  I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ

                  by cdreid on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:28:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  that's a terrible thing to say. (0+ / 0-)

              "The fight continues." -- JRE

              by wildcat156 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:17:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Ahem... first, there are ignorant racist (9+ / 0-)

          white trash all over the world... not just in this one particular region.

          Two, one of the reasons WHY the Democrats have been losing these people in these more remote regions has to do with this ingrained bigotry that pops out even from the educated children of "blue collar" Northerners like DH.

          Now, West Virginia wasn't WV until the 1860s.  It was only Virginia until that time.  And many people of Kentucky trace their genealogy back to tidewater Virginia and Pennsylvania.

          And, whether you realize it or not, there are families in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky who trace their pedigree back to John Calhoun... a Vice President of the United States.  You have Henry Clay and Carl Perkins (college students can thank him for the Perkins Loans).

          Furthermore, Kentucky has distinct regions: the mountains, the "aristocratic" snobs of Central Kentucky, the more urbane Louisville/Cinci region, and the Land Between the Lakes in Western Kentucky.  Campaigning in this state requires more aplomb than most politicians care to muster.

          The biggest thing in this state is having a respectful attitude.  Family, appreciation of the outdoors and nature, and the land.

          There are millionaire farmers up there in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky. That's right, they farm in those mountains.  And have cattle. And run businesses. You'd never know though standing next to one of them that they were millionaires.  Nor by looking at their work truck. They don't wear the benefits of their labor as gold bling for the world to see.

          Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

          by bronte17 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:14:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh Bite Me (6+ / 0-)

            Don't just talk about my supposed "ingrained bigotry," point it out.  Quotes.  Cites.  Links.

            Or shut up.

            BTW, probably a third of the kids I grew up with were from Appalachian families.  The suburbs west of Detroit, where I spent most of my childhood and adolescence, are full of people whose families came to Michigan during the teens and twenties to work for Ford or during WWII to work in the armaments plants.  I've spent time in Martin County Kentucky.  My stepfather is from Cincinnati, where I've spent a decent amount of time, and his grandparents were all from Kentucky.  So my knowledge and understanding of Kentucky and Appalachia goes beyond my knowledge of history, politics, elections and demographics.  

            The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

            by DHinMI on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:40:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Comment's not directed towards you, AFAIK (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dogemperor, Jezreel

              The thread's hard to follow.

              Informative diary. Thanks.

              "It's the planet, stupid."

              by FishOutofWater on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:46:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hmmm (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dogemperor

                Two, one of the reasons WHY the Democrats have been losing these people in these more remote regions has to do with this ingrained bigotry that pops out even from the educated children of "blue collar" Northerners like DH.

                If it's not directed at me, there doesn't seem to be much reason to mention me or my background.  

                The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                by DHinMI on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:59:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  DH, there are other approaches to this issue (0+ / 0-)

                  than your analysis (and this applies only to a specific subsection of your post).

                  I offered up a different slant with no intention of slandering you personally.  It wasn't meant that way... you just took it personally.

                  You are removed from this region and not a part of it, nor do you have a depth of understanding. You only have your northernness-educated-self speaking "authoritatively" on the subject.  And you have some weaknesses in your argument. I pointed it out.

                  Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                  by bronte17 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:06:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  My eye skipped over that (0+ / 0-)

                  I have trouble reading computer screens.

                  They give me severe headaches if I spend too much time looking at them.

                  "It's the planet, stupid."

                  by FishOutofWater on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:25:28 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Being your usual "sweetheart" self, huh? (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              truong son traveler, dogemperor

              Here ya' go:

              (*The Appalachian counties of Pennsylvania are a bit different than the rest of the region*, as they are much more Catholic than the rest of Appalachia and more ethnically diverse, with a decent number of Italians, Slavs and Germans mixed in with the most Scots-Irish and descendants of the 18th century immigrants from the English backcountry that dominate the rest of Appalachia.  Those counties, in fact, are the only part of Appalachia where Obama did OK, and actually improved on his performance over similar counties in Ohio).  

              The two big exceptions, however, the two states in which Appalachia dominates, are Kentucky and West Virginia.

              Based on the results of the primaries up to now, and for reasons suggested by Packer's interviews, we can see that Obama will not do well in West Virginia or Kentucky.

              Appalachia is actually more diverse than your northern-educated self gives credit. And there is more depth than you realize.  Cherokee, Jew, and African-American blood runs in many of those "backcountry" veins.  There is a heritage of entrepreneurship and businesses that run across the borders of Kentucky/Virginia/NC and SC from the eastern mountains.  You don't understand it because you are of the "superior" northern Catholic blue-collar "industrial" worker white clique.

              What many people do not realize is that people of Kentucky trace their genealogy back hundreds of years.  What you see as backwardness, they see as family heritage and take pride in their long roots and family lands and customs. Uprooting and zipping all over the country and living here and there and everywhere in between with no roots is NOT a dream-come-true for most Kentucky people.

              There were more millionaires made in Pike County, Kentucky than any other location in this nation... at one time.  California drew the "white trash" of Oklahoma and Kansas and the dust bowls.  California hasn't always been the "golden land" that so many think of as "perfection."  And the problems confronting California are immense and there is NO guarantee that California will forever maintain its status as the "leader" in cutting-edge technology.  Kentucky, of course, will never have that distinction because of its inner location and topography, but that doesn't make it a bad place.

              Ditto with Michigan or Ohio or Illinois.  The leaders in those states squandered their riches and their advances during the golden booms.  Same thing with Kentucky.  Only the people in the mountainous regions were strip-mined to death and left with nothing but the crumbs.

              Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

              by bronte17 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:02:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bullshit (0+ / 0-)

                Your epistemology is that if you're not something, you can't understand it.  If that's true, it's logically possible that not being from the "north" means you don't understand that we're smarter than you, because you don't "know" what "we" know.

                Come up with a logically sound argument and maybe you'll have something to talk about.  But saying "you can't understand" is bullshit.

                BTW, you have managed to completely ignore the post that I wrote, which pretty clearly addresses the fact that no place in America does Barack Obama regularly get less than 20% of the vote.  Maybe you didn't address that because "northerners" are too enamored with numbers, and people from Appalachia don't understand them?  

                Your argument, such as it is, reminds me of a professor of mine telling how when they were discussing slavery said "you're not black, you can't understand enough about slavery to teach it."  The professor replied "if you really believe that, you should hurry up and drop this class, because most of this class is about the history of white people, and by your reasoning, you can't understand it, so you're going to fail."  

                The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                by DHinMI on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:29:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Bullshit... I was born and raised in Columbus, OH (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  dogemperor, ms scarlett leadpipe

                  and am very well aware of bias against Appalachians anywhere north of Cincinnati.  

                  So, fine. Take back my words of "You don't understand" and I'll just say you are being a northern elitist bigot and talking out your ass.  Does that suit your polemics?

                  Nowhere did you even touch the "industrialist" urban person (of OH, MI, PA and IL) vs the land-focused rural person.  You just skipped right over that.

                  Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                  by bronte17 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:51:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with your characterization (3+ / 0-)

                  of the Appalachian region as "backward country" because it is. We are progressives and this is a progressive view of that part of the country, but from the point of view of an average repub, backward country means tradition, and roots, and that's what the other poster tried to point out.
                  Each to their own.
                  I sort of understand the Kentucky people, and overall the Appalachian culture, as it is found everywhere else on the globe, including the European country where I come from. Mountain regions tend to keep their traditions and pass them to next generations.
                  The question is- is it a positive or is it a negative phenomenon.
                  I grew up in a right wing traditional family, in a small town that would never cast the vote for the left wing candidate, ever. Out of the rule of thumb, without blinking, and thinking.
                  But that doesn't mean those people are stupid, or uneducated. I believe we progressives have a fertile ground to work those regions, talk to them, and embrace their culture and way of life. They simply do not know the better way, but they are not completely closed minded.
                  I was one of them, indoctrinated by the Roman Catholic Church, until I moved to the United States, and opened my mind. I know that I will never vote Republican, although this is the mindset I grew up in, and I understand it.

                  Btw, I am in MI too.

                  Try to relax and enjoy the crisis. -- Ashleigh Brilliant

                  by gigglinggirl on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:57:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Bronte, hold up a second. (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Christin, dogemperor, Jezreel

                You're clearly feeling defensive, and I understand that regional defensiveness. I've spent a lot of time in Appalachian Alabama and have a lot of friends I dearly love there.  When people make southern jokes and redneck jokes, I get pissed.

                But that's not what this post does and it seems like you got defensive and made assumptions and have been responding on the basis of things you assume to be there that aren't. I'd suggest you take a deep breath, or three, and realize that nowhere in the post does DH make the kind of condescending characterizations you think you see.

                He didn't talk about backwardness; you did. He didn't say northern = superior; you did. In fact, you appear to be hanging your whole argument here on a blatant misreading.  You quote this:

                18th century immigrants from the English backcountry

                and highlight the term "backcountry" and spin out a set of claims about DH saying there's no entrepreneurship or something -- but look again. He's talking about immigrants from the English backcountry. The English backcountry. In the 18th century. Indeed that is wholly in line with something you say you think he doesn't realize, that people might trace their ancestry back hundreds of years.

                But why is tracing your ancestry back some kind of marker of civilization anyway? Does that mean that Mormons are the most advanced people because they're into genealogy? That people with inherited titles are better than the rest of us, because they've traced that for so many generations?

                You're projecting your own anxieties onto this post in so many weird directions I can't begin to sort them all out. Which is why I'd return to my suggestion you take a few deep breaths and try to get some perspective and then if you want to come back, address what the post actually says rather than what you worried it might say when you first read the title.

                •  First, my post may sound defensive, but there is (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  dogemperor, Seneca Doane

                  no anger or high blood pressure going on here on my end.

                  Since I have read DH for so many years now, it is my understanding that he comes from a Northern blue-collar family with some faint manner of "southern" roots. He was the first to go to college, etc...  So, I may have read a little more deeply into his words than others here have done.  And I saw a speck of superiority speaking in his "northern industrialist" blue-collar approach.  So, I brought it up in one small part and he has gone ballistic over it. Which is fine... discussion is good.

                  But, from my perspective, he is speaking "down" to the Appalachian section of the southern United States and he does not capture the essence of the variations and striations within the region.  

                  And, FWIW, I'm a Buckeye who was born and grew up in Columbus, Ohio.  And consider myself a northerner though I suppose, in reality, I walk the fine line of both worlds as I have lived in Central Kentucky for many years and my ex-husband's family have those millionaires who run businesses and farm and strip out that coal.

                  Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                  by bronte17 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 03:01:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As I pointed out, (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Christin

                    you were incorrect in your reading of the specific place you seemed to be seeing condescension.  And your "reading a little more deeply" appears to have been an attempt at mindreading, because what you are claiming to have seen just isn't in there.

                    •  First, I read through the post by DH (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Seneca Doane

                      and that one section stuck in my mind, but I thought nothing of it until reading through the comments and the ugliness and bigotry began to rear its head.

                      So, I left a comment to alter the ugliness that was spreading its venom.

                      And, it appears, DH picked up on one specific section of my comment(s) and took grave offense. And he attacked, as is his wont anymore.  There is no discourse.

                      I am not a sociologist. Don't pretend to be one.  I am a democrat and an equal opportunity blogger who values egalitarianism. Regardless of location, vocation or erudition.  

                      Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

                      by bronte17 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 03:30:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Spend any time there? (0+ / 0-)

              Yeah that is no substitute if you have spent little to no time here. That is the problem with Americans we spend so much time looking form the outside in our comfort zones and never NEVER immerse ourselves. Then we proceed to pass judgments as if we are informed.

              Ever care to venture deep into the hills? Or too scared? Come on boy I like the way you look squeal like a pig!

              •  Relevance? (0+ / 0-)

                Do you care to engage my argument?  Are you saying that one can't be correct if one hasn't lived there?  If so, why not point out what I wrote which is supposedly wrong.  

                The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                by DHinMI on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:30:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah Very relevant (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  dogemperor

                  Yeah, the fact is you cite one jerkoff who will vote on race as the very base for supposed racist vote. No one here even knows who is! I can't speak to my northern neighbors, OH and PA (where personally it seemed to be a rather poorly run campaign compared to Clinton), but in WV, plenty of people would support Obama if he tried campaigning, in earnest, here. He's been here once. We base politics on a personal level.

                  LOOK At friggin' Kennedy. No one thought he would win here because we were supposed to be ignorant bigots then too.

                  ALSO we're a union state, we owe our existence. How racist is that?

                  Because you have met people or spent time with some people from KY means nothing. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT This place. It is like saying I am not racist because I work or have a black friend. It is one thing to have somebody who you know in your element. It is far different to be immersered in their culture. Then you'll understand. Until then stop acting like you know Appalachia because of association (it is just like saying Obama is a 60s radical because he knows bill ayers.)

                  Get it? Got it? Good.

                  •  I Know You Don't Know Your State (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    wildcat156

                    If you think Kentucky is a "union state," you're pretty damn ignorant about your state, because it's below the national average in union density, and is 29th nationally.  

                    You know what I've got?  I've got that you're reacting to a bunch of stuff I neither wrote nor implied.  I've also got that you don't know wtf you're talking about, but that you think you do.

                    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                    by DHinMI on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 09:07:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Geez.I hope you feel thoroughly stupid after thi (0+ / 0-)

                      Wow. pretty dumb.

                      Union as in the Union Army. Kentucky did not secede from the Union. West Virginia seceded from the Secession, driven in part because people here were not plantation owners who felt a dire need to protect the right to own blacks.

                      Secondly if you read my post I am from West Virginia.
                      And that is a pretty damn good union as in unions...) state imho.

                      This place refers to Appalachia. Something the two states share in common. And both implicated in your lousy analysis.

                      You know what I got- you really need to try a little harder than sitting at your computer and do real research next time. This is so you can base your arguments on facts not ignorance (the one thing you denounce but exhibited). I also got you like toot your little horn instead of critical analysis. Think about that the next time you want to go on about supposed large swaths of racists that live in a place where apparently you've never been.

                      •  Oh, Because You're Incoherent and Can't Make... (0+ / 0-)

                        ...clear points, it's me that's supposed to feel dumb?

                        Thanks for that!

                        The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                        by DHinMI on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:35:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Ugh... (0+ / 0-)

                          Wow. Talking about racism and not understanding where states were in that struggle called the Civil War, I think demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about this country. Of course, you analysis does that too. Thanks.

                          •  You're a Blithering... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...idiot.

                            The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

                            by DHinMI on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 10:36:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  I can't help it... (0+ / 0-)

                              That you can't admit that your post was bad at best and terribly ignorant at worst. Reading your other responses, you're feeling the heat and not doing too well accepting criticism.

                              I admit writing half of my comments in a rage towards the ignorant and arrogant comments from you and many others who consider themselves enlightened- but then again, I'm not passing myself off as an astute electoral observer. Start looking deeper.  

                              Alabama is Alabama. Ignorance is ignorance. People have it here and in NYC or LA or MI. You better off listening to your colleague Carnacki, or even the candidate Obama, about what drives insecurity and fear.  

                              Anecdotal or qualitative evidence is the worst for generalizability. You used an interview for precisely those purposes.

                              Brushing off this region is at the peril of Democrats. A solidly blue state was ignored in 2000 the EV difference was less than five. That is a problem for the party.  

          •  You just described a few people I know (4+ / 0-)

            Here in Eastern Ky. Plenty of millionaires sitting next to who bonzodogband refers to as "white trailer trash" in a diner.

            We do farm our land, kinda smart, if you ask me- we'll survive whatever the economy throws us.

            One demographic Barack does seem to have here is the young voters- many went to Columbus to watch his speeches.

        •  Not The Way I Wrote It (4+ / 0-)

          I loathe racism, but I think it's a complicated matter.

          Your comment is not in keeping with my views on racism...or, from everything I've seen and heard from the man, those of Barack Obama.  

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 01:34:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Except for PA (0+ / 0-)

          Clinton's argument, which is basically America is too racist to vote for a black guy, might be valid in Pennsylvania, where a significant part of the state is in Appalacia.  In head to head match ups with McCain, she does do better in the state than Obama.  And it'll be awfully tough for a Democrat to win the Presidency without winning Pennsylvania.

          I don't think this argument will convince many Superdelegates to switch to her after she is behind in the overall popular vote and in the pledged delagte count.  However, that doesn't mean the argument isn't valid.  Obama may not be able to win PA, and without it, the presidency, because of a bunch of stupid racist rednecks in Pennsytucky.

        •  Hey easy on the name calling. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          murrayewv, scarolinahokie

           Are racists dumb?  Yes.  Are racists poor?  Not always.  You are falling into the trap of hate.  If you call people

          "ignorant backwater racist Appalachian white trash"

          Then what good does that do?  It more than likely only makes you feel better.  As long as we continue to hurl insults at some of them the ones sitting on the fence feel justified.

          I am all for calling out racists, but to label them white trash is just as bad to me as calling all black people who live in the ghetto the N word.  There is some sever poverty in those areas, and call them ignorant, call them racists, but do not generalize that whole ecomomic voting block.

          We have a problem when it comes to that demographic but name calling only makes it worse.  I am not an apologist i am merely trying to make you see that being hurtfull towards someone who is living in poverty and quite possibly a lot worse off than those of us here on this board is not a positive thing.  

          Basically i could have just said, Do you think Barack would call them that?  I think you know the answer to that question.

          Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! King Arthur: Bloody peasant! Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway!

          by wargolem on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 02:28:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  and (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Ivan

          the young vote that he will bring out will cover for some of the bigot vote he will lose out on. I look at it like this, win or lose in Nov., this is an election that has to happen. It will come sooner or later, why not now. Let's give an African American an opportunity to run and see where we are in this country. This will also serve to introduce the possibility of an AA candidate to all of America. I want to know how far we've come and how far we have to go. It's worth it to me to find out and for the country to experience it, even if it means we lose the WH.

          What we must do is not get angry about confronting bigotry in this regard. That will only serve to throw fire on their existing hostility. Let them stew in they bigotry. Don't put the focus back on us by acting stoopid by insulting them. They exist and they are a part of this country, for better or worse. It is what it is. All we can do is fight the good fight. Do with these types what we do with the Clintons. Let them bask in they cynicism...we have no place or business egging them on. They both draw strength from the fight. We must take the high road...it neuters them.

        •  The don't call the candidate (0+ / 0-)

          HillBilly for nothing.  

        •  Theres (0+ / 0-)

          ignorant racist white trash everywhere my friend.

          I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ

          by cdreid on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 04:19:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, a hard statement, (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          truong son traveler

          but as a resident of the Bluegrass State, I can attest to it.  Don't get me wrong, I love the state of Kentucky.  Bourbon, basketball, and horse racing are three of my favorite things.  However, as with much in life you have to take the good and the bad.  The level of pure, unadulterated, backwardness that permeates too large a portion of this state drives me absolutely bat shit crazy at times.  I'm sad to say it's true, but there is a sizable base here that could care less about Rev. Wright, Obama's economic plan, or his position on the war-- they're simply not going to even consider voting for a person of color.  

        •  Your comment has the stinch of mental decay. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          scarolinahokie

          As a Kentuckian and an Obama supporter I'm offended that you would write off a whole class of people as "trash." That's antithetical to everything Obama stands for and he would condemn your words as such.

          First, there are no such things as "states we don't need to win." Who exactly are you fighting for anyway? Only those who live in blue states?

          Secondly, these are the exact type of voters the Democratic Party should be investing in. Why? Because they are why we lose. That said, it's not due to some inherent trashiness in the people. It's because the Republicans have been able to scare people to the poles with hate speech and pitting one class of people against another even though their interest and backgrounds are aligned. (From your language I can see you're very familiar with this tactic already.)All the while, the Republicans actually set and enact an agenda that hurts Appalachians economically, limit resources and education, thereby making it easier to keep perpetuating the myths and stereotypes necessary to keep people frantic and voting their fears.  

          Obama should make his presence known in places like this. While winning there won't be easy, we won't do it by ignoring the problem.  

        •  I have two words: (0+ / 0-)

          for you Obama supporters who think that in the general election you can dismiss entire segments of the population or whole geographic regions of the nation and count on just the support of the young, the enlightened and the "true" democrats to get your man elected: Michael Dukakis

          Your arrogance and ignorance is showing!

      •  I want Michigan to go black. That red (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        FishOutofWater, Amber6541

        is ugly there and is not true, not how the vote would go.

        I said go black and that sounds like SNL "Well black is th new president, *****" That's true too but I only mean black to indicate we haven't voted yet.

        Hey Jesse Jackson won here in 88. Clinton should say it doesn't count and give Obama the delegates.

    •  This doesn't fly with me. (0+ / 0-)

      This was well-researched and thoughtful, but one assertion is just flat wrong.  You state specifically that "The two big exceptions, however, the two states in which Appalachia dominates, are Kentucky and West Virginia."  Considering that only 25% of the population lives in ARC counties, you'll have to do better than "People in Appalachia are racist, therefore Kentucky goes to Clinton."  She's doing better for a lot of other reasons that are not related to racism.  The cultural aspects of Appalachia that you've mention don't explain her strength in metro Louisville, Lexington, Frankfort, the Cincinnati suburbs, or the entire western portion of the state.  (She's actually over 50% in all regions).  It just sounds terribly Clintonian to chalk up Obama's weakness to some over-generalized claim like a pervasive racism that apparently just comes from living in Appalachia.  

      (Note:  I'm an ardent Obama supporter, just cast my vote for him.  As a Kentuckian though, I have to call out poor demographic research and painting the state a specific color because of a couple of conversations someone had at a McSame campaign stop as totally unfounded.)

      "The fight continues." -- JRE

      by wildcat156 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 08:12:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I was born and raised in Appalachia and (31+ / 0-)

    It embarasses me on a daily basis.  I wish I could change their minds.  The only way to get to these people is through their pocket books.  They must understand that the repugs pretend "values" are designed specifically to disenfranchise them.  It just makes me sick.

    Impeachment! Indictment! Incarceration!

    by followyourbliss on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 11:47:35 AM PDT

    •  Impeachment! Indictment! Incarceration! (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Amber6541

      I love your sig.
      Would you like to do a diary sometime on who MOST needs to be
      incarcerated FIRST?
      Personally, I vote for Katherine Harris.
      My 2nd choice would be Hans von Spakowsky (who, despite having
      trumped up all these fake illegal ways to disfranchise black voters,
      IS A COMMISSIONER on the Federal Elections Commission).
      I guess 3rd would be Dick Cheney.

      "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

      by ge0rge on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 12:15:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So many of these people vote against their (8+ / 0-)

      own pocketbooks and self interest, but I wonder if their resistance to Obama is rooted in the fact that they perceive he would do little to help them personally, while he would enact policies that would help his own race.  (I am thinking that these voters are low information and not as educated as to the government works)

      Or is it rooted in true racism, or is it the fact that they are less educated and have few advantages to succeed in our country?  

      It seems to me that they feel more comfortable with a white male, or HRC than with a minority candidate.  I sense that they want to go with the devil they know rather than the devil they don't know, and that they are resistant to change.  

      I always have a great deal of trouble understanding those who continually vote against their own self interests, decade after decade.