Daily Kos

The Importance of Women Voters, and the Stupidity of Ignoring Them

Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:21:07 AM PDT

This was originally a comment on David Sirota's diary at Open Left.  It was so long I decided to make it a diary......I am hoping that this will be treated with the some consideration.  I did have some trepidatio posting this...but we'll see

Also I think it is important to transform the negative energy about anger that whites aren't voting for him into a positive understanding that women are just as proud and energized by the first serious women candidate for president.  And no matter which one wins the nomination...it is important not to turn those who voted for their candidate but not the other candidate into bigots....however hard it is to resist.

That's not a good general election strategy.  People (except for guilty white liberals) okay most people,  who will vote in the general election, but have not voted in the primary,  will not respond positively to being characterized as bigots if they have concerns about a candidate. Categorizing an undecided white voter...male or female....as a racist if they have hesitatancy about Barack Obama is not a way to get their vote... only their resentment.

Women voted for Clinton, not against Obama

Women voted for Clinton....and in the Penn. primary white women were 48% of the electorate.

Too many commentators don't acknowledge the historic nature of her candidacy....and just like after Iowa,  blacks are voting for Obama, women, and at this juncture white women,  are voting for Hillary Clinton.

The turnout in Pa was 2.3 million voters, 3 times 2004, Obama supporters thought it would be 1.4.  But the excitement is not just coming from his side but also from her side. Hillary Clinton just like Obama is generating lots of new voters, new women voters, esp. single women, a very large segment of the electorate who are Democratic but rarely vote.  David makes the case the Clinton people have to worry about black voters in the general....not voting for McCain but not showing up.  I think the same is very true for this segment of the women's vote...They won't show up.  Except I will say that white  women are 48% of the electorate and black voters are just 12% of the electorate.  That's a greater number of voters that will potentially stay home.  Not that they hate the other candidate so much, but well as my mother used to say "I'm not excited".

The article below makes the case that gender was what matterd in Penn not race.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.c...

Election 2008
Obama loss may not be about race, but gender
By JONATHAN TILOVE
Newhouse News Service

WASHINGTON - There has been much reporting and commentary in the aftermath of the Pennsylvania primary about Sen. Barack Obama's failure to "close the deal" with white voters.

But an analysis of Pennsylvania results indicates that Obama's trouble may not be so much with whites - working class or otherwise - but with white women. And their overwhelming preference for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton may have less to do with any resistance to the prospect of a first black president, and more to do with their powerful desire to see the equally history-making election of a first female president.

"If you really look at the numbers, it's clear that this is a gender impact," said David Bositis, a senior research associate at the nonpartisan Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies in Washington. Obama's perceived weakness with the white working class, Bositis said, is largely an artifact of Clinton's powerful appeal to women, who comprise the greater number of working-class voters in Pennsylvania and elsewhere.

"The media seems to want to read race into a lot of things that are going on when it may actually have little to do with it," Bositis said.

White women, according to exit polls, made up 46 percent of those voting Tuesday, and Clinton carried them 68 percent to 32 percent.

By contrast, she carried white men by 57 percent to 43 percent, and they made up 33 percent of those voting.

Moreover, exit polls found, 14 percent of the Pennsylvania electorate were women who said the candidates' gender was important in deciding how to vote. Clinton won that group by 77 percent to 23 percent. Bositis said that means those voters accounted for 7.6 percentage points of her overall advantage over Obama, or 82 percent of her total victory margin of 9.3 points.

snip

"I think a lot of people who've been thinking about this race in Pennsylvania have been so attentive to the obvious excitement of the Obama candidacy, we may have underestimated to some degree the excitement of Sen. Clinton's supporters," Hagen said. "It is an historic candidacy, after all."

snip

And Clinton's support among women also may have been stoked by dismissive treatment in the news media of her candidacy, and calls for her to quit.
"Certainly the media coverage has gotten some hackles up," Gandy of the NOW said.
Or, as Ann Lewis, a senior campaign adviser to Clinton, put it: "There is a real anger among women at what people see as a pattern of trivialization of Hillary, of making jokes at her expense and minimizing her seriousness. And every time they see something like that, boy it reminds them of the times in their own lives when they've faced the same thing."

It is not just that the media trivializes the importance of the black vote, some media people trivialize the importance of the female vote. This community should  try to understand the positive reasons people vote for her...because if you want Barack Obama to both be the nominee and the winner in November it is incumbent on you to treat her voters with respect.  

Tags: Women voters, Hillary, historic candicacy, single women (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 90 comments

  •  the female vote is (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lordcopper, Vacationland

    going Hillary 55-45 nationwide the black vote 90-10. The assumption is always blacks will come back even if Obama's nomination is stolen but why can't Obama win Hillary's voters in a primary?

    After Obama's eighth straight victory, Penn told reporters: "Winning Democratic primaries is not a qualification or a sign of who can win the general election.

    by nevadadem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:27:02 AM PDT

  •  Speaking as a woman (8+ / 0-)

    Hillary never had my vote because she was a woman-that is as ridiculous as voting for someone because of race.  I don't like her politics, I don't like her stand on the issues, I was not that thrilled with her husband's triangulating in the 90's and I do not want to see them back in power.  Oh, and some of my best friends are women...they have no use for the Junior Senator from New York.  

    Hillary Clinton, running for President of the Relevant States of America!

    by MufsMom on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:27:58 AM PDT

    •  Sorry (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene, gchaucer2, orangeuglad, Pebbles

      I should have added that I agree all voters should be treated with respect.  It is too bad Hillary and her campaign can't treat the 40 irrelevant states and their voters with respect...she might stand a chance if she did.  Sorry, this "women are in lock step and won't vote if Obama gets the nomination" stuff makes me crazy.

      Hillary Clinton, running for President of the Relevant States of America!

      by MufsMom on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:30:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Do we have an age breakdown? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    myboo, orangeuglad

    As I've seen it before, Hillary does well among older women but not as well among younger women, who are much more likely to support Obama.

    And in all the Obama campaign activities I've seen here in California, the women outnumber the men by a 2-1 ratio.

    Finally, there IS a big gender gap - and it involves November. Women of all ages and races prefer a Democratic candidate to McCain by huge margins. Hillary's women will support Obama in the fall. I have no doubt of that. And I don't see that anyone is ignoring them.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:31:31 AM PDT

    •  There is indeed a gender gap. (0+ / 0-)

      And moderate Republican women are much more likely to cross over for Hilary than for Obama.  

    •  I am not talking about voting for McCain, (0+ / 0-)

      but staying home.  

      Barack Obama has increased black turnout a lot.  It has always been reliably Democratic, 80-20 or 90-10 but it has been lower in volume.  Historically it has just been okay in the past not great.  I think if she's the nominee that volume will be lower

      The same with women in gerneral as well as a certain segment of women....unmarried women....who are Democratic by a large measure but who also historically have not voted in large numbers.  Her candidacy is bringing them out. If he is the nominee they will stay home because he doesn't talk to them or excite them.  

      My contention about electability is that women are 4 times the percentage of the electorate than are blacks.  Also I do think that black women moved over to Obama later and they will more easily come back to her.

      And it is counterproductive if he's the nominee to accuse people who vote for her as racists.....They won't vote for him if you call them racists....

      •  not this black woman (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        orangeuglad

        She works vigorously to divide what has historically been a pretty strong electorate. She divides latinos from blacks, women from men, whites from blacks, "elites" (anyone who doesn't support her) from working class.

        Black people, men and women, tend not to fall for the old okey-doke more than once.

        •  there is a reason HRC needs help (0+ / 0-)

          writing the gender-equivalent to Obama's speech on race and it is because of her raw opportunism that translates into a lack of sincerity when it comes to "bringing people together." She works furiously to tear them apart.

          Wilson Help Us Write "The Gender Speech"

        •  anecdote is not data (0+ / 0-)

          but your visceral hatred is distressing.

          I am trying to control my own anger which is pretty high....

          You and your candidate have engaged in a campaign consisting of nothing but one character assault after another all based on 1990's right wing talking points.....

          I  reach out by posting here and this is the vituperation I get.

          Every time I return I regret it.   His supporters do him more harm than good

      •  do you have any support (0+ / 0-)

        for the claim you make that Hillary is drawing women to the polls that wouldn't otherwise vote?

      •  There was a good diary on this Friday (0+ / 0-)

        Here, with a lot of good comments, but it was Friday night and so I don't think it got the attention it deserved.

        In fact, that diary and some of the comments in that diary opened my eyes quite a bit about the strength of support Clinton receives from middle-aged women, which I was having trouble understanding, even though I, too, am a middle-aged woman.

        I consider myself a feminist, and I have experienced a lot of gender discrimination and sexual harassment in my life, but I was not choosing a candidate for President based on race or gender, but on who I thought would be the best person for the job.  

        Due to my respect for Obama's intelligence, his broader view of things and his ability to bring disparate groups of people together to find real solutions (among so many other excellent qualities that I see in him), I'm firmly committed to voting for Obama.

        I liked Clinton in the beginning, but now I have developed a lot of distrust for her.  I have disagreed with some of her previous votes in the past, but watching her behavior over the course of this campaign has shown her to be untruthful and to be willing to engage in other distasteful behavior that we normally only attribute or expect from the other party.

        That said, I am glad to finally get why so many women are so deeply committed to her campaign.  I cannot join you in your assesment of her, however, and I will never be able to vote for her.

        I do hope we can all come together in support of the Democratic candidate; but I don't think Clinton has much of a chance now, and I firmly believe she would lose in November to McCain.

        Obama's doing particularly well with one important demographic - voters.

        by orangeuglad on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:44:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eugene, gchaucer2, orangeuglad

    Women voted for Clinton, not against Obama

    Really?  How do you know that?

    For what it's worth, this 47-year-old white female's vote is largely Any Dem but Clinton.  

    •  Um... (0+ / 0-)

      ...are you accusing white women of being racists because they find Hilary a better candidate than Obama?  

      •  Please stop with the knee-jerk racist crap. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        lordcopper, orangeuglad

        I said no such thing.

        I'm saying that the diarist made a blanket statement based on who-knows-what that can't be backed up with facts.  The diarist has no way of knowing the reasons for anyone's vote.

        And for the record, out of the millions of votes cast?  I'm sure there are white women out there who voted against Obama because he's black.  Just as there are people who won't vote for Clinton because she's a woman.  Bigotry abounds.

        •  I didn't get that from your statement either. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          CJB

          "Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo

          by lordcopper on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:57:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Read the article . there is evidence in it (0+ / 0-)

          That is why I posted it.  the polling data is evidence.

          And I must say this constant accusation that there is no evidience and I am posting an evidence free diary is a counter assault based on either laziness or ignorance...and those are two of the better motivations for this accusation.

          The article has lots of polling data and links....and Texas Liz posted a diary based on the same article and pulls out more data.

      •  Women are voting for Hillary for another reason (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        orangeuglad

        one that seems to be ignored by alot of the media and pundits and bloggers alike but a reason I am finding more and more boomer women admitting to.

        I find I am now having running debates with good female friends who are staunch supporters of HRC...notice I said supporters of HILLARY and this is an important distinction and one Hillary plays up all the time.

        HRC has realized she has the vote of middle aged women and older women based on her position as the supportive WIFE of a serial CHEATER, one she has chosen to stick by through all his affairs.  I find that these women want to stick by HRC as a way to show support for ALL WOMEN who have found themselves in her position.  Women who have decided to keep their families together even though their spouse is a LOUSE.  this isnt so much a vote for HRC as it is a SOLIDARITY SISTER kind of thing.

        We women have been 'taking it from our men" for centuries and we have stuck by them and stood behind them for just as long and NOW one of us is running for President and many women are using this moment to make a statement and a stand and HRC is the standard-bearer...for NOW.

        I think this is why Obama has found it difficult to make inroads with a certain female segment of the voting population....  BUT it doesnt mean he wont capture those votes once HRC is no longer running... BUT it also means he may not be able to capture those votes until HRC is out of the race - and it does no good to try and force her out because it only makes the 'women' who support HER dig their heels further into the sand.

        So do a little research on your own.... when you meet a staunch dug in HRC supporter be polite, be supportive, be understanding and quietly ask WHY, why they are supporting HRC - keep track of how many of them respond with something akin to "because i like her, thats why"  and how many respond with substantive reasons based on her policies...

        "Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran" is NOT a coherent Mid-East Strategy Mr McCain!!

        by KnotIookin on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:18:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  there's no rule that says you have to have (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          bumblebums, GN1927, orangeuglad

          a good reason to vote for a candidate, but I have to say voting for someone because her husband cheated on her has got to be right up there in the top ten of pretty foolish reasons to vote for someone.

        •  You may think it is foolish... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          KnotIookin, orangeuglad

          but it is a reason. I too have had a disagreement with one of my female friends over the same issue. My friend is in her 60's and she thinks we women owe it to Hilary to stand behind her after all that Hilary has been through. I think we owe it to the country to stand behind the best candidate, Obama.  

        •  Because she's more progressive and more partisan (0+ / 0-)

          That has always been my take on her and why,  even though I was in the Boston Convention Center when he made his 2004 speech, I did not like him from the beginning.

          From that speech it was evident he wasn't much of a DEMOCRATIC PARTISAN NOR A REAL PROGRESSIVE.

          I was torn between Edwards and her...but Obama was always at the bottom of my list because it thought his post partisanship was just foolish....and now it's even less likely to work because he's been tarnished and those independents and Republicans who would have voted for him before are having 2nd and 3rd thoughts.

          I don't see you  convince anyone that his policies are better than hers.  that's like saying day is night.  By any progressive measure her policies are better tnan his...Enough better than his that he is often just cribbing them from her....like her COPS proposal and her stimulus package and her green jobs proposal ( which she has talked about for years and years) and how to renegotiate NAFTA....really the man is just a copycat....but one who doesn't really mean it so he won't really try very hard..

      •  no as a white woman in her sixties (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        orangeuglad

        I find the indimidation by some of these women groups trying to force us to vote for her because she is a woman offensive.

        I live in NY and worked for her for the senate election. But would never want to see her as president. She is not qualified, and her tactics during this campaign shows me that is not the kind of person I want in the White House.

        She is losing every measure and has the nerve to say she is winning. She is dillusional. She clalims the popular vote, when Obama was not on the ballot in MI. She does not include the popular vote of 4 caucus states. Which gives Obama an insurrmontable lead even if she won all of the remaining states.

        She is disingenuous. And she will say and do anything to win.

    •  Anecdote is not data (0+ / 0-)

      Polling results and exit polls are data.

      This is a logical fallacy you are engaging in.

  •  I reject the entire premise of your diary (15+ / 0-)

    the article you quote, the whole thing.

    I oppose Hillary, not her gender. I support Barack, not his race.

    Those who base their decision on such shallow considerations are trivializing their vote and sullying the process.  

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:33:38 AM PDT

  •  I agree: Female and StrongObama Supporter (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Larry Bailey, orangeuglad

    I am a very strong supporter of Obama. But I do feel he would be stronger if he placed front and center his support of women's issues --- especially  issues like day care, work flex time, family leave (even paid family leave) that are standard European and Canadian policies.  There was a great article in The Nation about a year ago called The Motherhood Manifesto, which focuses on a bill of rights for working mothers that already exists in every European country....(even universal health care was considered part of this bill of rights.) This would help him with women voters in general and working class women voters in particular.

    Hillary Clinton speaks about these issues easily.  I think that it is important that Obama speak to women just as clearly.  I am sure that he supports all of these policies.    But it would be great if he started speaking about women's issues immediately.

    •  PS (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      I have just read the other comments.  It is not enough to say that there is a gender divide by age or that people don't vote according to gender or race.  Yes, people vote according to the issues.  And there are certain issues that Obama supports strongly but does not talk about.  He could talk about these issues easily and speak to a group of women who haven't voted for him.  Why not?  Why not speak to every possible voter?

      I love him. He is inclusive, he is of the grassroots.  He is an organizer.  That means speaking to everyone.

      Obama is going through a rough time lately.  Even his supporters say he has to be clearer on what he stands for--- just take a look at Bob Herbert's editorials in the NY Times this week.

      We can help.  Here is an issue that would gain him a lot of support....across gender, race and class lines... where he can be specific  To be honest I don't know any women in NYC who support her--- perhaps because we have gotten to see her up close and personal... many don't trust her.  None the less, the women who vote for her are looking for something, and that should be respected.

      •  I know her. I live in NY (0+ / 0-)

        I know hundreds of women who know and admire her.

        She is a genuinely good person....and what she has taken from being Senator and talking to small shop owners or farmers in upstate NY,  is the ability to see the world from their eyes.  She loves being Senator...because she genuinely wants to make other people's lives better.

        The measure of a good politician, which I see as an honorable calling, is the ability to walk in other people's shoes.  That is exactly why Obama's San Francisco rematks were so damaging.  He spoke to RICH people about poor and middle class people as though he was an anthropologist discussing some tribe or a sociologist discussing some class or a scientist discussing some interesting species....that's being aloof and distant.  he was telling the world he couldn't walk in their shoes.  He telelgraphing that he's wasn't emotionally empathetic...he has intellectual understanding but not that ability to walk in other's shoes and see the world with others' eyes.  

        She has that now...working hard at her job has given that to her.  Obama starting running for president before he could develop it.

    •  I don't get the impression that many (0+ / 0-)

      women supporting Hillary are supporting her primarily because of her stand on the issues. To appeal to these Hillary supporters, I think Obama would need to get a sex change operation and then marry a womanizing creep and be publicly humiliated by spousal adultery.

  •  As soon as I saw the 'Black Voters' diary (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kpbuick

    I wondered how long it would be until the popped up.

  •  Those of us (7+ / 0-)

    women who have lived long enough are happy  that a woman and black man are the two Democratic candidates.  I never thought I would see that in my lifetime.

    That being said -- many of us will happily wait for a credible woman candidate -- one who is not divisive, self-interested and generally destructive.  Shirley Chisolm cracked the door for both Obama and Clinton, even though she didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.  Clinton opened the door wide -- because the next woman candidate will not raise eyebrows and hopefully can distinguish herself from Clinton's distateful campaign.

    My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:40:57 AM PDT

    •  I echo this comment a hundred times. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gchaucer2, orangeuglad

      I will very happily wait for a credible woman candidate, and I feel confident I will see one in my lifetime.

      •  Depends on how old you are (0+ / 0-)

        It was 53 years from the 15th Amendment giving black MEN the right to vote and the 19th giving women the right to vote.

        Maybe you're a teenager. You are very wrong about her personal qualities though.

        it is shameful how the Obama campaign has used 90's right wing talking points against her....anti feminist talking points and he uses them over and over on a daily basis spewing them out.

        You fail to understand this is how all women will be treated...Strength and firmness will become shrill and cold to calculating to dishonest.

        I am sad you have bought into such a female destroying narrative.

  •  On Super Tuesday I cast a human vote... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sam storm, kpbuick, orangeuglad

    all this analysis on demographic lines belies my vision of who I am, and that of most of my contemporaries.  I don't see myself as primarily a woman or a Latina or an African American or a Christian or a lawyer, although I fit in all these categories.  I am a person who makes decisions based on many factors, the least of which is my gender or race.  

    Honestly, the overriding factor that rules my decision making is the fact that I am a parent.  In this race, I thought about who would make a better future for my children, and voted accordingly.  

    Obama08.

  •  Lots of women support Obama (6+ / 0-)

    But it's also true that many women really do support Hillary at least in part because they have been waiting a long time to see a woman become president.  My mother, for instance.  And although I have seen Obama supporters make rude remarks about these women, the candidate himself has not.  Indeed, he has made additional efforts to reach out to women but he has never dismissed female voters by making comments comparable to Bill Clinton's in the SC primary, which were, basically, "well what do you expect of people who voted for Jesse Jackson?"

    So I don't think anyone is dismissing women voters, not the way I've seen people saying, on other sites, "well who needs the vote black anyway?"  

    But of course, you are right: women should not be dismissed and there should be some recognition that many are excited by Clinton's candidacy, and disappointed when she is not the nominee.

  •  Pretty much all commentators recognize... (5+ / 0-)

    the historic nature of Clinton's candidacy. It is just most people don't think that historic is a very good reason to vote for someone. I certainly am not drawn to Obama because he is black. Basic characteristics like black, female, blond or tall really don't factor into my decisions about candidates.

    In fact I was a bit dismissive of Obama at first since I figured he was just running to raise his profile and maybe get the VP spot, i.e. I figured he was just a normal politician. I've rarely been so happy to be wrong in my life.

    •  I echo your comment, too. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      Damn, there are a lot of good comments in this thread!

    •  I would happily uprate that a hundred times! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sam storm, orangeuglad

      I actually was kind of content to let the process play out, figuring the Clinton machine would allow a flash in the pan from Dodd and Biden and an Edwards burst and then steam roller them all. I, too thought Obama was the new kid and going to get maybe a VP or so out of it, all the "punditry" was soaked in by me.

       I remember the polls that said before HRC even formally declared her candidacy that 67% of VOTERS expected her to be the Dem's Prez nominee and win the Presidency.

       But this isn't a predictable, trad media driven and controlled year. And although people I was interested in haven't made it,  the best of the group in all fairness in terms of organizing and strategy has made it into the lead.

       I agree, many women are just happy and proud to finally vote for a decent Democratic woman candidate for President. That isn't a dissing of Obama, it is just what it is.

       The tough part is the calculus of 1) is she the best candidate for the Democrats, and democratic success in all states this fall? and 2) Is the Democratic leadership and the mass turnout going to be energized even more by another candidate?

       If Obama wasn't running as good a campaign in the primaries, if he hadn't the presence or strategy or wasn't making the 50 state effort and energizing everywhere, Clinton would be rolling along like a tsunami.

       She isn't. She is still getting votes where she had big leads or very long and strong established leads, but she is not breaking out of that base of states and doing little among other Democrats where they have been trying to improve for years.

       The race was supposed to over after Feb, 5 super Tuesday. Instead, there was a fight in every state and it was a test of money, of organizing, of getting good people to run the campaigns, of getting good policy and outreach and leadership demonstrated, and she has been edged or outdone in those areas time and again.

       It is a fitness test, and there is somebody who is outperforming her, not "beating" or dissing her.
      Obama couldn't get away her  frontrunner status by taking away her existing support, by demanding superdelegates abandon her and inside armtwisting.

      He had to outwork her,go to places she passed by or was not making an effort in,or was content to ignore and rebuild democrats, attempt to rally Democrats, actually lead Democrats who wanted a leader and not be a person inside the "centrist middle" playing safe.

       He has done a great job, and he IS the leader no doubts about it.

      Every Democrat out there has flaws. We don't obsess about them endlessly or throw the flaws in their faces, we help them up and keep our cause moving forward.

      by Pete Rock on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:58:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lots of people think tht's a good reason to vote (0+ / 0-)

      for Obama.  It makes them feel good about themselves and the good they are doing for their country.

      I am more concerned with his policy positions and his lack of partisanship...neither of them positive traits in my mind.

      What you like I don't like.

  •  Excellent diary! Thank you... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    debcoop, sarakandel

    ...especially for this one observation...

    That's not a good general election strategy.  People (except for guilty white liberals) okay most people,  who will vote in the general election, but have not voted in the primary,  will not respond positively to being characterized as bigots if they have concerns about a candidate. Categorizing an undecided white voter...male or female....as a racist if they have hesitatancy about Barack Obama is not a way to get their vote... only their resentment.

    Debcoop, I sure wish more of ObamaKos recognized that fact. If you label Sen. Clinton's supporters "racists", or "fools", or "deadenders" -- all that and more I've encountered myself -- then you are doing NOTHING to help assure Sen. Obama's success.  In fact, you are widening the divide between Democrats and virtually guaranteeing a McCain presidency.

    Until the last week or so, I thought we'd naturally overcome the divisions created largely by offensive posturing and name-calling by Obama supporters.  I'm no longer sure of that.  I know I'll manage enthusiasm for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is, but I'm not certain about some people more heavily (emotionally) invested in Hillary than I am.

    •  I disagree (5+ / 0-)

      using terms like "guilty white liberals" is divisive and dismissive.
      You and the diarist don't know me or what I have done in the women's movement or anywhere else, and I've done a lot.  
      I have no reason to feel guilty about anything and I don't feel guilty.
      So stop it.

      •  What? Who's talking about You? (eom) (0+ / 0-)

      •  Yup (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        clonecone, annalivia, kpbuick, orangeuglad

        It's absolutely disgusting.  

        It's once again minimizing Obama's stunning nomination accomplishment by positing that some percentage of his support is the result of "white guilt."  I've looked for evidence of how I or anyone else of color that I know have actually benefited from this mysterious thing called "white guilt," but truth never stops people who choose to believe that black people get over.

        •  you're right - it's the race card (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          GN1927

          belittling Obama as an individual and belittling those who voted for him.
          I began with another candidate and really thought about this election. I was impressed that Obama performed well under pressure and met every test and set a positive tone. He's been pounded on by McCain, Bill Clinton, and Hillary Clinton. The MSM has let HRC move the goalposts.

          Right now Obama has to seize the initiative. They are trying to goad him again and he is very restricted because an angry man of color is so threatening. But he has to get control of the narrative.

          •  I think the first step (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            annalivia, orangeuglad

            was his demonstration of leadership and looking ahead towards the massive voter registration and participation drives which he is planning for this summer.  Think Freedom Summer sans the terrorists (KKK) and extended throughout the country.

            Now, I think it's kind of on the Democratic party leadership to confront the Clintons.  They really are trashing the party on their way out the door and it's beyond damaging and unseemly.

            But I'm in total agreement that it is going to be crucial that Obama remain on message and not get tempted into getting into it with the Clintons again.

          •  I don't belittle him (0+ / 0-)

            I don't agree with his policies or his poltical stance.

        •  This is not what I meant (0+ / 0-)

          But what do you think one tools of the civil rights movement was...if not white guilt...

          That is always one of the purposes of civil disobedience from Gandhi to Martin Luther King...to engage the oppressor's better nature by making them feel bad about their bad behavior so they try to make changes.

          I think making people feel guilty is a good thing...not a bad thing.   It's Freudian psychobabble that make you respond as though guilt is bad and not a motivator for good.

      •  that was an observation (0+ / 0-)

        lots of liberals are voting for him because it's 2 for 1.  they think he and his vision is good for the vountry ( I don;t) and they get to feel they have done something good.  

        But this was written in response to David Sirota's diary which did indeed imply that people who voted for her were voting agaisnt him and that there was an underlying racial reason.  

        I do think progressives wh are supporting him have not really thought about what he would do....what his policies really are and how much less progressive than are than her.  I think this applies to both women and men.  

        Progressive men I do think are voting for him based on a somewhat on a fear of strong women.(Some support him based on the war...but I don't see any real difference as once again he's copying her stannces)  Lots of women think it is noble to always put others ambitions before their own. I no longer think that, but I did for a long time.

    •  Have you spoken up (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kpbuick

      at Jesse Jackson presidency...it took an LBJ, not MLK...affirmative action candidate...too risky to run a black man...hispanics won't vote for blacks...

      Did you say anything, or was this okay with you?

      •  Not at half-truths, words out of context, and... (0+ / 0-)

        ...pure invention.  If you were interested in all your shorthand for anything other than a possible political weapon, you wouldn't have any quotes to work with.  Two can play your game, you know.  Plenty of fodder for political pissing matches -- some of it on the telly right as we type.

      •  Did you know that LBJ and MLK strategized (0+ / 0-)

        together on phone calls to pass the Voting Rights Act?  bill Moyers, LBJ's press secretary has testiified to that.

        It is exactly that.  MLK's envisioned his own role as one who was to create an environment by challenging and invoking "white guilt" enough so that LBJ could get Congress to pass the Voting Rights Act.  So Hillary was describing a historical and political reality...A characterization that MLK would have agreed with.  MLK saw his role to be activist who got legislators to make laws.  

        That was a perfect example of the Obama campaign crying race and disrespect where there is none.

        I am a prochoice activist, have been one for decades and I see my role to create scenarios which push and enable legislators to make good laws and stop bad ones.

        So has it been okay with you when the the press and hundreds of comments in this blog ar sexist and demeaning. How about the "Iron My shirt" comment or Matthews calling her voice like chalk on a blacboard or Barnicle saying she sounded like evryone's first wife or Olbermann implying a man shuld take her into a room and she shouldn't come out.  The overt sexism is real.  There has been very little overt racism in this campaign...

        As I reread what I write in response to you I realize that your angry comments only engender more anger from others... that was exactly why I tried to post this diary.  to try to turn negative anger into something positive....

        Once again I have to say Obama's supporters do him no good.  

  •  I think part of the problem is that the media (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kpbuick, orangeuglad

    in this election have been talking about race and gender as if they are mutually exclusive categories. The fact that "female voter" seems to be code for "white women only" is a huge problem.

    IGTNT: Remembering our fallen soldiers

    by a girl in MI on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:59:11 AM PDT

  •  your title is misleading (6+ / 0-)

    it looks like you mean "The Importance of White Women Voters". I notice when many pundits say "women" they really mean "white women."
    Just as when many pundits say "working class voters" they really mean "white working class." Even then if you look at class of  voters by income it is confounded by age. One should back out those living on Social Security because that component measures age and deflates the incomes. A better measure would be to look at votes of those under 65 by income.
    Even so when we talk about "women" or "working class" it shouldn't exclude minority voters They matter, and they are women and working class too.

    •  Actually, white women voters over 50 (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      There's a group of women out there who see HRC's election as a form of reparations for centuries of gender discrimination in this country. Never mind her hawkish views, her ethical baggage, and the fact that she's trading on her husband's brand name: she'll "make history" as the first woman president.

      Caveat emptor.

      Replete with "misstatements" and elisions and retracted and redacted and revoked assertions.--Carl Bernstein on HRC's record.

      by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:11:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You Are Right--This Is An Old Problem (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      annalivia, kpbuick, orangeuglad

      You hit it on the nose.  When people talk about working class voters they are usually talking about white men.  When they are talking about women voters they are usually talking about white women.  And when they are talking about issues of race, they often talk about men of color. There was a great article - I think it was called Triple Jeopardy, that talked about the exclusion of women of color from the dialogue.

      But I do think that there are women's issues that cut across race, class and gender.... and I think that Obama could be speaking to those issues.... the difficulty of being a working mother in this society without the support of good day care, family leave, flex-time, health care etc.  This could be an issue that is made for him.

      •  Political scientists and pollsters do that (0+ / 0-)

        because they vote differently.

        black voters are heavily Democratic no matter what their economic status, class, education level, work status etc...

        White working class voters have a more variable and diverse voting pattern so they tend to divide them into subsets that correlate with their voting patterns.

    •  I said white women in the body of the piece (0+ / 0-)

      And that I think most black women would happily support her if she's the nominee.

  •  Maybe I'm just missing the evidence (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bumblebums, orangeuglad

    in this diary, but I don't actually SEE any hard evidence that Clinton has inspired a lot of otherwise non-voting women to vote that otherwise wouldn't or won't vote.  I feel like the diarist is asking us to read between the lines and speculate, but I really do not have any evidence for that and, frankly, I am more than a little dubious.

    I certainly do know some (older) women who, while finding lots of fault with Clinton, cast their votes for her in the end largely due to the fact that she is a woman, but these were all women who are voters anyway and the ones I have talked to were torn between the two in any event and will happily vote for Obama in the fall.

    I am a 42 year old woman who still does not know if I can force myself to pull the lever for Clinton in the fall if I am put to that choice.  I honestly don't know.  Ethics and integrity and demonstrated grasp of and commitment to reforming the deeper structural problems that have prevented progressive movement in this country are my most important considerations for the presidency, and the reason I longed for Gore to get into the race.  Obama embodies these qualities and insights.  I am unable to distinguish between Hillary and McCain on issues of fundamental honesty and integrity.  Yes, she is a Democrat and therefore espouses more policies that I agree with (although her foreign policy instincts are scary as hell) and yes, should would not seek to appoint radical conservative judges or radical conservatives throughout the government, and that matters.  But whether it is enough to make me pull the lever for someone who I think has absolutely no core values whatsoever is a difficult question for me.  I see no meaningful distinction between the campaign Clinton has run and one that Karl Rove would have run on her behalf. Fortunately, I don't think I will have to ever find out what I would do in that circumstance.

    •  You are so wrong on her personal qualities (0+ / 0-)

      It is sad to see the damage the Obama campaign has done by furthering 1990's right wing assaults on her that were created becasue she was a strong women and a feminist....that's why they created all those media lies about her...There will be new and different media lies about Barack and Michelle Obama.

      She is a fundamentally good person.  So is he.  They are both motivated by a sense of trying to do  good.  I just think she actually has better policies to do good and knows better how to acieve them.

      I will say to you as a clinton supporter that the campaign of character assaults that they have used against her is exactly the campaign Karl Rove would have run and has run against her as well.

      We are all still too much infected by the mainstream media spin.  Half of what you accuse her of was created by that Queen of Meanness and Pettiness, Maureen Dowd in the 90's.  Go back and read her columns...she began writng in 92 or 93 I think and it was trivial, and vicious and and aimed at any Democrat who dared to succeed....from Bill and Hillary to Gore to Kerry and it will be Obama too.

  •  Respect goes both ways (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bumblebums, kpbuick, orangeuglad

    I wasn't exactly edified by the Clintons and their hangers-on blasting voters like me for being over-educated, elitist, and atypical of real Americans.

    Replete with "misstatements" and elisions and retracted and redacted and revoked assertions.--Carl Bernstein on HRC's record.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:09:26 AM PDT

  •  yes, and that's exactly why it's such an insult (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bumblebums, orangeuglad

    to women in PA who are proudly casting their vote for the first serious woman candidate for President, to suggest that their vote FOR Clinton means that Obama "can't win over" white women, older women, etc.  Why should women be expected to give up their chance to vote for Clinton to "prove" that Obama deserves his winning position so far? that he has "closed the deal"?

    Sure, some voters in PA are racists who won't vote for Obama. Just like there's plenty of voters around the country who won't vote for a woman no matter her last name. Luckily, most of the bigoted voters who won't vote for any black man or any woman are in the Republican Party or among the 80 million eligible Americans who dont' vote in the general election.

    however, unlike black voters (women and men, old and young) who have moved firmly into the Obama column from their initial divided support, women voters (black and white) are still divided, with plenty of older white women supporting Obama. Some of us feminists would, in fact, actually find it more of a feminist victory if the first woman President was elected entirely on her own merits. No, I'm not saying Sen. Clinton doesn't have her own merits, but she's also got an ex-President as husband, and it's because her husband was President that Clinton has all this "experience" that her campaign touts.

    If in fact, Clinton was the frontrunner in this race, headed for victory after winning more delegates and more states in the primary elections, with the sort of undivided support among women that Obama has among black primary voters -- and there were those arguing that because of Clinton's gender, the superdelegates had to intervene and save the party from electoral disaster in November -- it would absolutely be fair to claim that such intervention would be "ignoring women" as well as being stupid, but that's not what's going on.

  •  I crunched some numbers from (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    debcoop

    primary exit polls in a diary   yesterday.  There is an incredibly strong correlation between winning the overall female vote and winning the contest.  In 27 out of 28 primaries, whoever carried the female vote won.  Contrast this to Obama's support among African Americans - he won the AA vote 9 times where Hillary won the primary.  Similiarly, Hillary consistently wins the 60+ vote but in several cases did not win the primary.  While they are reliable constitutiencies, neither african americans nor seniors are swaying the contests to the same extent as women.

    Even more interesting, the average number of points Hillary gained from women correlates nicely with her margin of victory. Women are vitally important to Hillary's success.

  •  Women, and people of all ages, (0+ / 0-)

    Had better start getting excited about the general election regardless of the nominee or risk four more years of discredit and distruction of the country we love.

    We used to say "If you ain't part of the solution, you're part of the problem". Staying home on election day makes you the latter!

  •  I'll make it simple for you (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bumblebums, kpbuick

    Clinton receives GOP-levels of black support because she is currently running a GOP-ish Southern Strategy campaign.  

    If this party leadership chooses to run Clinton's campaign nationally despite Obama: obtaining more delegates per the rules of the contest, obtaining a higher percentage of voters and caucusgoers, obtaining a historical, recordbreaking number of donors, and running a clean, respectful, unifying campaign...

    ...the national Democratic party will receive a decrease in support among black voters, among others, which will prove catastrophic not merely to the presidential election, but other downticket races as well.

    It really doesn't get much simpler than: please don't run a race-baiter if you'd like black voters, male and female, young and old, to support the Democratic party.

    Your diary would appear less bizarre had Obama run a gender-baiting campaign, in which his core argument against Clinton's candidacy is her gender.  Because Clinton's core argument against Obama's candidacy is his RACE.  And she's gotten rounds of applause for it.

    People can do what they want at this point, but I feel no responsibility towards unifying with people who cheered on Clinton's bullshit.  None.

    •  Now you are obtuse (0+ / 0-)

      I make an argument.  You are attacking me for a case/argument I didn't make.

      Her core argument is that she would be a better president.  She is a fighter and that has nothing to do with his race.

      You seem to think that anyone who doesn't vote for him is a racist.  That was EXACTLY THE POINT OF MY DIARY.

      Black voters are voting for him out of pride at his historic candidacy.

      Women are voting for her out of pride at her historic candicacy as well.  

      Yo are the one who see race baiting everywhere and in places it's not.  She is not running a race based campaign.

      The diary was not about the tactics of each campaign  but about why people are excited by each one.

      You are very angry. How's your blood pressure?

  •  Women voted for Obama! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GN1927, orangeuglad

    She won the older female vote by about 10 percent. Many women voted for Obama and more younger women voted for Obama.

    Obama won the AA vote by over 85%. I think that is a HUGE difference than Hillary winning by 10%.

    I am sure you are smart enough to realize this difference. Its too bad you have to take the data and twist it in order to make a justification.

    •  And also note (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      orangeuglad

      that Obama's campaign never gender-baited during this contest.  Never.  Obama's wife was placed front and center as an equal partner in their marriage.  Never has the Obama campaign pushed any meme reinforcing pernicious misogynistic stereotypes.  The Clinton campaign, by contrast, has absolutely made full use of "silver-tongued hustler" "unAmerican-not like you" "risky, you can't trust him" "even if you like him, the country is too racist for him" "affirmative action candidate" throughout their campaign.

      There's a reason that, as you noted, women of all races have not in reality become disaffected by Obama's campaign, while the Clintons have absolutely destroyed their credibility with a significant portion of the black community.

    •  Women voted for her and him (0+ / 0-)

      Do you really think I said no women voted for him?

      That would be silly and stupid.

      Read the article...It cites numbers...the majority of white women voted for her...it's an argument about margins of victory.

      "I twisted nothing. Are older women to be discounted as voters as well as sexual beings?  The data inclued all white women...young, old, middled aged.

      As any pollsters knows voters can be put into many differnt subsets...some tell you somethin about motivation and others don't.  

      I resent being told I manipulated anyting. You must think people are not proud to vote for her.  I find it hard to understand why people vote for him...but I try.

      •  Women voted for Clinton... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        boofdah

        not against Obama.

        That is not true. Some women voted for Clinton...so yes, you took the fact that 10% more women voted for Clinton and accused Obama of ignoring women.

        I have a few older female friends that are voting for Clinton because they want to see a woman in the White House in their lifetime. But honestly, I don't think this is a good reason to vote for anyone for president.

  •  I never considered race or gender (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    orangeuglad

    ..and frankly, other than the fact that I did not think she was electable, I didn't have anything against Hillary when this all started. The thing that bothered me about Hillary at first (and still does) was how hard the right wingers and FoxNews seemed to be pushing for her to be the nominee. They KNEW they could beat her, fairly or unfairly. A number of things have happened during the campaign that have turned me against Hillary, but it did not start out that way, and gender is not, nor was it ever, a factor. Face it, during her campaign, Hillary has demonstrated herself to be a dangerously self absorbed, vindictive and petty, less than trustworthy, and incompetent as a manager. Her being a woman has nothing to do with her lack of support among some groups. She's simply a bad candidate, and she would be a bad President. She is bright and capable, but so was Richard Nixon.

    Among the numerous turnoffs coming from the Clinton campaign was their arrogant proposal that frontrunner Barack Obama should step aside and take the VP slot. I suspect that black voters viewed that as "take your place at the back of the bus, boy." It would have been interesting to see what the reaction would have been from the Hillary camp had their been no Obama in the race and John Edwards had suggested to Hillary that she should step aside and be happy with the VP slot even though she was leading in delegates, states won, and popular vote.

    Hillary is trying to circumvent the will of the voters to get the nomination she thinks she's entitled to. If she were to succeed in doing that, black voters, young voters and independents would have their cynicism validated, figuring (correctly) that democracy is dead, so what's the point?

    It's not the same. Not by a long shot.

  •  I understand this (0+ / 0-)

    I am 58, female, (considered to be) white and more than anything I'd like to see a woman in the WH before I die.  I have done every kind of mental gymnastics that I could think of but I cannot justify voting for Clinton simply on that basis.  With every election cycle I have looked at candidates, weighed arguments and positions, and most often, voted for the lesser of the evils.  I can't let one thing determine who I vote for.  There may be one thing that tips the balance but single issue voting is irresponsible.  The longer this race goes on, the more outrageous she becomes.  Yes, she is sleep-deprived, desperate, and stressed to the max.  I don't find that a convincing argument for threatening to obliterate an entire country (which would also contaminate an even larger region for eons).  I had a different preference at the beginning (Biden) but given the choices remaining, I prefer hope to bravado.  I am not going against my gender.  I am going for a better country.

    -7.62, -7.28 "We told the truth. We obeyed the law. We kept the peace." - Walter Mondale

    by luckylizard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:26:18 PM PDT

    •  I never implied you were (0+ / 0-)

      I think there are positive reasons to support her...from her progressive policies to her ardent Democratic partisanship.

      I think she would be a better, more decisive and determined executive.  she wuld be more uncompromising with the Republicans I think that's a good thing.  the fact that he compromises so readily to me is a bad thing.  It actually used to be a bad thing for the propietor of this blog.

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