Daily Kos

Mortgage Bailout Resource Diary

Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:03:13 PM PDT

Today, the shape of the bailout of those facing foreclosure is being decided in the U.S. Senate, and in my opinion, this will have a major effect on the General election.  While the Senate is almost unanimous in wanting to do something, there is a wide range of positions on what to do. Based on this reportof what is taking shape, it looks like the current proposal will be something short of a bailout for most of those facing foreclosure.

Often our political positions are explained by this aphorism,  "Where you stand depends on where you sit"  Or, if you are making a ton of money, you generally want lower taxes, and if you have a great medical plan, universal health care isn't that important.

Here is an interactive map of every county in the U.S., showing their percentage of sub prime mortgages. You can see exactly where you sit.  This map is important, since those in counties with the most, have more of a vested interest in a comprehensive bailout, such as proposed by Senator Clinton.

In this diaryI frame the situation in a way I haven't seen in the media, but I maintain is pretty accurate.

The Democrats, ostensibly the party of the people, are too close to those at the top of the financial pyramid., It was Bill Clinton who signed into law some of the key legislation that loosened regulations on the most arcane derivatives. Chairmanship of Goldman Sachs seems to be the stepping stone to Secretary of treasury for both parties from Rubin to Paulson.  Their careers were made by fostering  aggressive speculation, with the well being of the those whose struggle along at less than a seven figure salary rather remote from their thinking.  

But it will be those people who don't make great salaries, and now don't own their own homes,  who will be among those forced to pay for this debacle.  Hillary Clinton wants to protect the good "homeowners," the victims of predatory lending, but she is fostering a pernicious illusion.  Those people who decided to take a mortgage on the appreciated bubble value of their homes, while mislead,  were not defrauded by the lender. They got their money on the refi, or they got the house.  When they took the bait to refinance to the max, they got that check for a hundred grand or several times that; and they got to spend it as they pleased.

The neighbor next to to him didn't get that check.  They didn't remodel their home, or take that trip, or buy that new SUV.  Or maybe the money was used for more admirable purposes, sending a kid to college, or taking care of an elderly parent.  The point is that the person who signed a loan mortgage got to provide these service while their neighbor did not.  Or maybe the neighbor was a renter, who was waiting for prices to peak, or didn't want to overextend himself.  His prudence is about to be punished, severely, if Clinton gets her way.

The victims of predatory mortgages received their money, or they got their dream home, for which they agreed to pay back at the terms defined by the loan agreement. Many were mislead, but separating the greedy from the naive is an impossible task. Did they really believe that their home would continue to double in value every five years.  Did they not realize that if it did, anyone who worked for a living would be consigned to paying rent for the rest of their lives.

----
Here's the part of a previous diarywhere I describe the moral dilemma of this issue.

The market system, individuals making personal decision on investments in their homes, is the best possible housing policy. Government does participate with tax benefits, mortgage guarantees, and numerous other involvements, but it is the individual who decides to invest in a home.

While we are focusing on the Real Estate Collapse, the pathology was the bubble, one that never should have happened. Free market principles are not negated by legal constraints, they are only made possible by them.  It is the Bush Administration that willfully, and unconscionably abrogated its responsibility to curtail mortgage fraud.

Now the conundrum, one that is profoundly disturbing to me.  The solution to the excesses, the pricing bubble and now it's deflation, can only be found in free market correction.  And here's the rub. The only person who is advocating this is from the party that by it's collusion, distorted the free market, encouraged mortgage fraud, and precipitated a credit crunch that could bring the economy to the verge of collapse.

The logic of the Dodd-Frank bill borders on the absurd, "If we can bail out Bear Sterns, then we can bail out the homeowners."  No.  If it was wrong to bail out Bear Sterns then it is wrong to bail out homeowners. And the two action are separate, each with their own exigencies and consequences.

And of course there is the other unspoken aspect.  Bailing out homeowners facing foreclosure is ultimately bailing out the commercial banks that will receive the government guaranteed mortgages.  The Homeowners, are the conduits for taxpayers to bail out the financial corporations that engineered this disaster.

I actually like Obama's approach to the foreclosure problem, described in one of Krugman's earlier diaries:

Finally, Barack Obama’s speech on the economy on Thursday followed the cautious pattern of his earlier statements on economic issues.

I was pleased that Mr. Obama came out strongly for broader financial regulation, which might help avert future crises. But his proposals for aid to the victims of the current crisis, though significant, are less sweeping than Mrs. Clinton’s: he wants to nudge private lenders into restructuring mortgages rather than having the government simply step in and get the job done.

There are a vast majority of people of both parties who did not participate in the mortgage debacle of the last five years, who wouldn't think of overextending themselves with the expectation that their houses would always increase in value.  When they realize that it is they who are the unwilling underwriters of this excess, they will not be happy.  

Let's hope that Obama gets this right.  There is a line to walk between Hillary Clinton and John McCain that will lead to the Presidency if done with integrity, skill and leadership.  It is a rare election that provides  candidates with such an opportunity to define themselves to the public.

Poll

Senate Bill on Mortgages, more regulations and....

14%3 votes
23%5 votes
47%10 votes
14%3 votes

| 21 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Sub Prime Mortgages, Foreclosures (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 41 comments

  •  Comments welcomed........n/t (6+ / 0-)

    •  I think your points are well made and should be c (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mataliandy, PAbluestater, arodb

      onsidered.  There is a comment above regarding an adjustment to an ARM that will screw a homeowner.  That is where I do think accommodations can should be made.  Maintaining lower interest rates for those who can make those payments would help significantly.

      I think, however, there is a large group of people who even if their current rate was maintained are already in trouble.  Who did in fact get in way over their heads and did spend money they didn't have etc.

      They were part of the Bush view of a thriving economy.  An economy based on spending rather than saving.  Look at our government.  They are going to need a bail out and some forgiveness of debt as well.

      The answers will be difficult for some but maybe it will be the best lesson that they and their children can learn.

      From the depression (which I certainly hope does not happen) our grand parents (for some great grand parents) did not take things for granted.  They saved and did not spend money they didn't have.

      We need to move in that direction...not to the extreme but the middle.

  •  I wonder, if they just take forever to come to (5+ / 0-)

    some sort of resolution, there will be no homes left facing forclosure to deal with.

    I see a lot of talk about what to do, but no action.

    That's what's bugging me the most.

    Some of us weren't greedy, just terribly mislead.  My house is only $72,000.  But once the interest rate resets, I'm screwed.  

    •  They will move fast on this one... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mataliandy, willb48

      and a bill will be passed, probably, within a week or two.  Bush is actually not getting too involved since he had said that nothing should be done.

      I live in Southern California, I didn't know that you could still buy a house for 72K.  In this county you would have to ad a zero to the figure, for an average tract house.

      One thing that is being done to help you is the lowered interest rates by the fed.  This will make the reset lower, and also makes a long term fixed cheaper if that is possible.

      It's good to hear from you, since I only visualize the greedy types who were gaming the system.  

      If I'm not getting too personal, did you have a down payment or was it a 100% mortgage.

      •  Someone had a comment earlier (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        willb48

        About houses selling for 10-20k in Iowa.

        You can't even buy a building lot for 72k in my neck of the woods. Last month was the first month prices went down......

        Got Left off the Blogroll so I'll Pimp it Here NorthCoastOregon

        by OregonCoast on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:25:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Houses for $2k - $5k in Cleveland (0+ / 0-)

          However, a friend did research, and those prices hide liens that must be paid by the purchaser (often over $100k).

          The houses, as a result, aren't moving. They'll fall down before they're sold. The banks and other leinholders should cut their losses by cutting the amount they're willing to take by 60%. It's better than losing everything and having entire neighborhoods laid waste. The way it's working right now is like a slow-motion tornado.

      •  If I bought this same house (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mataliandy, PAbluestater, willb48

        about 15-30 miles east of west of here, it would have at least doubled. 1200 sq ft on a city lot. I live in the city.  Here in Michigan, living in the city is cheaper because it's older, more urban.  

        I put down 5%, plus paid to put a new furnace in.  Problem I had was, due to a divorce, I didn't have prime credit.  I took a higher interest rate, so my payment is already difficult, but I could handle it.  I was guaranteed that in 3 years, my credit would improve and allow me to not only reset the interest, but at a lower rate.  Well, here I am....

        I'm paying 9% now, so my payment isn't cheap, not for a $72k house, but it's manageable, for the most part.  It definitely won't be once it hits 10, 12, or more.  I'm actually kind of the opposite of others. I took a higher payment now, "knowing" I could lower it in 3 years.

        When I took the loan, it was sold to me as a fixed 30 yr, but at the closing table, it changed to an ARM.  I was kind of stuck, and I could still do it, so I went with it.

        stupidstupidstupidstupidstupidstupidstupid....

        •  That explains why my brilliant stuff is never... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          willb48

          on the rec list.  It's a conspiracy......;)

        •  Seond gen, don't beat up yourself... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mataliandy, PAbluestater, willb48

          we all freeze when we are at that closing and face a mound of documents that seem so official and overwhelming.

          It is people like you that should have the right to sue your mortgage broker.  It sounds like bait and switch.

          I was one of the few who was despondent over Eliot Spitzer's downfall, since he is kind of guy who would have taken on the mortgage industry.  He, and other Attorneys General of the states tried to rein in these excesses like yours, and Bush actually prevented it.

          Maybe you will be helped by the bill that comes out of congress.  And having your response here, understanding your situation, would make me feel a little better about it.

          Good luck

          •  second gen,this is classic: (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mataliandy

            Where is the lawyer or your agent to object to this?
            There is supposed to be a explanation of closing costs and terms given to you BEFORE the actual closing itself. To whom is the broker or agent? responsibile?  Their fiduciary or ethical obligations?  Sounds as though they let that one by.

            Switching to a ARM may have been done with a kickback or a promise from the mortgage company. And you were not to know how it was done, just that it would be done.

            When I took the loan, it was sold to me as a fixed 30 yr, but at the closing table, it changed to an ARM.  I was kind of stuck, and I could still do it, so I went with it.

            I would say they are getting greedier and greedier. especially to a first time homebuyer. Taking advantage of a tense situation. Making you think if you don't take their terms, even unfair or bait and switch terms, that you are somehow a "loser", or won't get another chance at a home or a deal.

            John McCain: a survivor, not a hero. Just ask his first wife. He had his chance to be a hero and blew it.

            by Pete Rock on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 11:09:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I was kind of led to believe that (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              mataliandy

              if I didn't take the loan, I would be in breach of contract.

              My purchase agreement stated that I would buy the house at said price contingent upon being able to secure financing.  The way it was put to me was, since I did secure financing (a 3/27 ARM) then I was obligated to continue.  Even then, they kept calling it a "30 year mortgage", you know, 27+3=30.  But I never, at any time, believed it would be an ARM, until close.

              Here in Michigan, you rarely use lawyers, just agents and title/closing companies, and the agent was about as useless as dirt, since she typically deals with $150-300k homes, and mine was just a piddle in the bucket for her.  Even the closing/title company was useless. But, honestly, like you said, in the midst of it, you don't realize these things. It's always after you can step back and look at things that you figure it out.  The mortgage company doesn't even send a representative.  The title/closing company handles all that. So, I couldn't even ask questions.  No one who could do anything about it was at the table.

              •  Closings are a huge trap for first time buyers (0+ / 0-)

                depending on the state,the mortgage company, the desire of the broker/agent to make the deal happen...
                a lot of adversity can happen in that purchase.

                 Many sales documents contain charges for the lawyer acting on behalf of the mortgage company. There are "fixed" closing costs, but the option of having an advocate is up to the buyer. The real estate agent often pretends they are being helpful to all , or acting for the buyer when they give advice but the reality is they are working to sell the property and that commission which doesn't depend on the kind of deal , but that it gets completed.

                 Many of the problem loans were created when agents steered buyers to these loans because there were incentives to do so. Many buyers believed that the sales agent wanted to see them "get their house", not that a specific kind of financing was in reality a bonus or the desired end of the agent's friend at the mortgage broker's.

                  The closing costs are grossly inflated and out of wack, but "customary and necessary" and on that premise the customers are set up to expect...
                "customary and necessary predatory financing".

                  My first house buy/closing  involved an agent for the seller who was his friend and a beginning lawyer. My lawyer detected a flaw in the title, a flaw in the power of attorney the beginning lawyer had, and it got resolved a bit later.  I had no idea what takes place in these transactions. I didn't get switched or misled in the terms, but I am sure it is very easy to do, and happens often.

                 Houses are desireable, defensive purchases to maintain or keep a lifestyle or presence in a community. They are not automatic wealth builders or "excellent" investments, never were.

                John McCain: a survivor, not a hero. Just ask his first wife. He had his chance to be a hero and blew it.

                by Pete Rock on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 11:44:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry about that. (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mataliandy, PAbluestater, arodb, armenia

          You probably didn't live through the Volker years.  Lotta people lost everything when an ARM went from five percent to twenty percent.  The problem wasn't as serious then.  ARMs were a relatively recent phenomenon.

          Closing is an incredibly difficult moment in a real estate deal.  By then, you're psyched up to be in the house.  You've seen it, you want it.  Sign here, sign here, sign here, initial this, initial that.  This changed.  Sign here.  Initial that.

          I was lucky enough to have a sister who is a CPA and had been through buying property.  She came with me to the closing.  Plus, this was 15 years ago.  Lenders were MUCH more careful then.

          I really feel for you.  Maybe rates won't reset too high.  Yours is the case where I could argue that the federal government might do much good in helping you renegotiate to fixed-interest 30-year.  

          •  I remember those years. (0+ / 0-)

            That's why we always insisted on having our own lawyer not only present at closing, but given copies of all closing documents a couple of days ahead of time for review. Also both of us read every single page, asked for clarifications, and made corrections. There was only one instance where someone really tried to rush us through, and we were very clear that we were not going to rush through something that was going to bind us for the next 30 years.

            One time, my husband found the most perfect "out" ever in a purchase & sales contract:

            "The house shall not be contaminated by paint."

            It should have been "The house shall not be contaminated by LEAD paint."

            The real estate agency had been using the form with this typo for YEARS. They were very grateful when the error was pointed out.

            Unfortunately, few of today's homebuyers were old enough or lived in one of the devastated states at the time of the Volker bubble, so they just wouldn't know how important it is to (a) have a lawyer whose loyalties are to you and (b) read every single word and ask a question every time you don't understand something. It can take HOURS, and annoy the crap out of the busy brokers looking to make their next 6%,but it's really important to do. A few hundred bucks in legal fees and a few extra minutes letting someone impatiently tap their toes at the signing table can save months or years of pain.

        •  Thanks (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mataliandy, PAbluestater, arodb

          it makes me feel better to let people know it's not always just "greed".  My house payment + tax + insurance averages around $780, because of the high interest.  Thing is, if I get out of my house, and go back into renting, I'm looking at a $700-800+ rental.  So, it's in my best interest to keep my house.  But, I may not be able to.  Since buying it, I've also lost my job due to disability, so the current payment is much harder (but still mostly doable)

          Gov. Granholm came up with a new deal here in Michigan, but there are no real details yet. (not that I found, anyway) to find out how substantial it will be.  

          Granholm signs bills aimed at easing foreclosure crisis

          I did see on the news that you can't have an income more than $108,000 and your house can't have cost more than $224k or something in there.

          There's this on the Michigan website, but it's from October, 2007 so I'm sure it's changed substantially as signed. (such as the income/home price limits)

          Governor Granholm Announces Plan to Combat Mortgage Foreclosure Epidemic in Michigan

  •  This is a really informative diary (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PAbluestater, arodb

    It should be getting more attention.

    "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

    by armenia on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:24:34 PM PDT

    •  You would think.... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      OregonCoast, armenia

      If the Dodd-Frank bill passes in some form, it will put the American Taxpayer on the line for perhaps a trilion dollars in mortgages.

      It's like your dippy nephew comes and asks you to co sign his loan, but in this case the government isn,t asking, they are telling you that you are the cosigners.

      And the bill will never actually have to be paid. Like we are seeing now, like magic, the fed prints more money and they don't even have to raise taxes.

      But you start to notice that it takes a lot more of those little green pieces of paper to buy a tank of gas and to fill up your grocery bag.  

      We aren't taxed but our currency is silently devalued. We are fleeced and we don't even know it.

      So, this diary isn't read, nor is the article of how our nations economy is being distorted.

      If a Senator stole a thousand dollars it would be all over the front page, If the senate reduces our worth by a trillion dollars, its lost on us.

      •  I'd rather pay out a trillion dollars to help our (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mataliandy, arodb, armenia

        citizens, then to pay out several trillion to go to someone else's country and blow it up under the guise of protecting this country when it was bullshit.

        Just sayin'

        •  I want neither (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          arodb

          Both will/are killing the dollar.

          Got Left off the Blogroll so I'll Pimp it Here NorthCoastOregon

          by OregonCoast on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:43:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What you and I want (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mataliandy, PAbluestater, arodb

            is so small and yet impossible in the scheme of things. I want my family to have a decent, fighting chance at economic security, relatively healthy life.

            The decision to collateralize loans to sell off bundled loan packages and scam the creditors is a long time very deep and involved process. American banks are now cursed out all over the world. The last 10 to 15 years  what was "unusual", to me - my last mortgage loan started in NY, was sold off to a Texas firm, then shipped offshore became standard practice all over the country.

             And that was a fixed rate loan, and it was paid on time for more than 10 years, so it represented a performing loan back then.

             But now the decent jobs are being shipped out under the guise of "free trade", and the financials are being done up as increasing debt  to sustain the appetite for easy credit and increased purchasing power, even though it is unsustainable. That has been running for many years. It is over.

            It is about survival now.  There is no room for "punishing" only the profligate, only the uneducated borrower. Because selecting them out and impoverishing them without recourse means everybody else gets deflated and diminished as well. The extra 5 to 10 million homes coming on the market as a result of massive foreclosures? The end  of real estate/homeownership for many years.

             If people cannot sell a decent home at a decent price, they cannot move up (get a bigger home for their larger family, or move to another city) or sell the house to get funds for retirement.

             Think about it. It is more than "moral hazard" and punishing the "unwary and reckless". It is about the beating down everybody's about to take. If this doesn't get stabilized, it will continue to spiral down. There is no magic "floor" next week, or bottom.
            The great depression went on for nearly 10 years.

             It took a huge World War to pull America out of it.

            And we are already exporting our slump world wide. Just as happened in the 1929-1933 period.

            John McCain: a survivor, not a hero. Just ask his first wife. He had his chance to be a hero and blew it.

            by Pete Rock on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 10:51:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Pete.... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              debedb

              A person puts little or no money down on a 500K house. Market drops to 400K and he walks.  How is he impoverished?

              Or if he took out a refi, he actually got the money.  Maybe he paid for his loved ones operation, or maybe he bought kugarands and put them in a safe deposit bank.  If the extreme bailout happens, he will have his debt written down, and it will be replaced by a government, that's taxpayer guaranteed, mortgage.

              I do understand your point, and it is shared by most of congress.  But I simply see it differently, or see the down side as greater than the damage, which will be as severe as you describe.

              Moral Hazard sounds abstract, and a bit "prissy."  But it is real, and more pernicious than most people imagine.  And any bailout will keep prices well above what they would have been had there been no bubble.  This limits the ability of those just out of college, or perhaps away fighting in Iraq, from ever being a homeowner.

              I do appreciate your input, but our perspectives seem to be divergent on this one.

              •  I had a longer response but (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                arodb

                it just timed out/got lost. Basically there are two reasons for the "bailout". 1) to stabilize the market, prevent a huge spiral downward without stopping. 2) try to breathe life in some of those loans that became CDO's and were sold overseas to foreigners who trusted American brokers and bankers.

                A performing loan is what they are after, not a gift to those homeowners.

                there are reports out that 9 million and maybe many more if the prices really drop 20 or 30 % or more will be much overvalued - the note much higher than what the "homeowner/debtowner" can get for it in the next 20 years. If he walks, along  with  millions of others, all properties suffer with disastrous consequences. The decent home selling at a decent price so the owner can move to another city or buuy a larger home for a growing family becomes impossible. The values may drop so much the retirement sale is not possible either,there is nomoney left at closing to fund that retirement.  
                 
                 There are so many negatives of a "do as little as possible and let the unwary get spanked or ruined"
                policy it takes more than this post to list them all.
                The feeling virtuous and aggrieved, as in I did nothing wrong or greedy or chancy and now I, I have to pay towards the bailout of those so and so's? may be quite real ,too. But no help for them means the pain YOU will get will be that much worse. We have no real choices to avoid it. We can cut it down a bit, but that's it. It is on course for a huge meltdown.

                John McCain: a survivor, not a hero. Just ask his first wife. He had his chance to be a hero and blew it.

                by Pete Rock on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 12:16:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Response (0+ / 0-)

                  "a huge spiral downward without stopping" would not be expected.  In NYC in the mid 1970s Real Estate dropped as much as 50%.  Many, of course were hurt but most stayed with what they owned.

                  At a given point in the decline, as in any market, the values become too great to pass up.  The buyers come in on their own accord, albeit at a much lower price.  It revitalized the market.

                  This would be expected if housing were to take it's natural course.  And you are not responding to the effect of sustaining most of the bubble inflated prices, that houses are not affordable based on cash flow of a working couple at these inflated rates.

                  We are both looking at reality.  There will be pain, and it will be unfair to many, if the bailout does not occur, but I see the down side of preventing this painful process from reaching the point where buyers will come back.

                  No one ever said that capitalism is easy, and without suffering.  It's just better than the alternative.

                  All the best

                  Arodb.  

                •  Paying for it either way (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  arodb

                  If you pay for it in the form of a bailout, they keep their home and you get more when you sell your house.

                  If you don't bail out, they end up homeless (ask any Boston-area resident what happened in Boston the last time), and you pay for it by getting less when you sell your home, or if you try to get a loan to replace the furnace, or whatever. Not to mention increased crime rates with the associated costs of incarceration, and so on.

                  We're going to pay for this mess one way or another. I'd rather pay ordinary people (even those who were in it for greed) to stay in their homes than pay 10 times as much to the avaricious architects of the deregulation that made this happen.

                  I'd also prefer never again to see an entire family with all that remains of their worldly goods huddled under an overhang in Harvard Square, hoping not to be hustled out into the rain by the cop walking down by the corner. I never again want to have to stop and give my leftovers from dinner to the guy sobbing in the median strip. I never again want to sit on a bus overlooking a subway exhaust vent only to see half a dozen people trying to warm their hands in the raw October drizzle.

                  Nearly every town in this state has a Poor Farm Road. There's a reason for that. Maybe, just maybe, we can prevent a return to such dire times by letting go of our desire to punish those who weren't as smart or who screwed up, or were greedy in their home purchases. Maybe. I'm willing to give it a try.

                  •  Punishment isn't my goal, fairness is... (0+ / 0-)

                    Bailouts will have the effect of keeping prices high. And the money that is given to the homeowners will go to those very architects of the disaster.

                    Perhaps they should stay in their homes, but if they put nothing down, just why should they own it.  Why not have it owned by the city, or the state or feds.

                    Then let them stay, and then pass it on to another worthy family when they move on.

      •  But the devaluation is happening REGARDLESS (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mataliandy, PAbluestater, armenia

        the subprime mess isn't the cause of our currency tanking. What causes our currency tanking is exporting good jobs and important everything else. You cannot keep doing that forever.

        Our trade deficit in energy alone is bad enough, but we also shipped overseas all the manufacturing jobs. We're toast, it's as inevitable as gravity.

  •  That map is interesting (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, arodb

    there really is no rhyme or reason to the numbers. I was expecting areas with higher prices to have more sub-prime....or at least more economically depressed areas.

    Got Left off the Blogroll so I'll Pimp it Here NorthCoastOregon

    by OregonCoast on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:28:20 PM PDT

    •  Quite the opposite... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mataliandy

      the very lowest is New York County, which is the Island of Manhattan with the absolute highest home values per square foot.  One reason is that most are cooperatives, and such mortgages would not be allowed.

      Other high cost counties, such as San Diego have low numbers of sub prime.  I wish this were even further divided into neighborhoods.  I would bet there is a strong inverse correlation between cost and sub prime mortgages.

      It also has something to do with age of development.  Those that are new, selling during the last five years, would have an over abundance, since that how they marketed them.

  •  When you look at the interactive map (0+ / 0-)

    it seems clear that the entire country, is suffering to some degree or another, from a sort of financial pathology.
    I'd rec your diary, but for some reason that option is not coming up on the right hand side of my screen. That happens every now and then..don't know why.

    "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

    by armenia on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 09:30:44 PM PDT

  •  Likely effect (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, arodb

    Few homeowners with the worst mortgages will be qualified for any relief.  How can they refinance a house, if they overstated their income on a loan application.  

    When I bought a house fifteen years ago, the  process was almost agonizing.  They went through your income and assets with a fine-tooth comb.  I wasn't fool enough to take an ARM because I'd seen what happened in the early 80s, when Volker started jacking up interest rates.

    So, here's the deal.  I have no problem helping homeowners with an ARM refinance to fixed-rate - but only if they are put through a rugged analysis of their financial affairs.  That accomplished, jawboning is justified.

    The "balloon" loans.  Stupid, stupid loans.  Probably can't be helped.  Too bad.  Foreclosure seems certain.  These are predicated not on the value of the property rising, but on the individual's income rising.    

    This has to be combined with draconian regulation of the mortgage and financial markets.  Home equity loans should be outlawed in the future.

    Otherwise, no deal.

    As for the foolish second mortgages (home equity loans), those used to be illegal in Texas, for good reason.  What to do about that?  Hell of a situation.  I've always been a rather lefty Democrat.  That's why I never trusted shifty strangers who offered something for nothing.

    It's better to take the medicine now.  Defering it until later only leaves a sicker patient.

    End of rant.

    •  Overstating income is rarely the reason for the (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mataliandy, willb48

      problem.  I see this misconception a lot. There are some out there who got loans without verifying income, but most of the time, that's not the case. I know I had to re-verify my income 3 times during my purchase process, and I'd worked at the same place for 10 years.

      Most of the problem is adjustable rates and the promise of rising property values.

      I also, personally, think part of the problem is the current credit scoring system.  You can't fight teh credit score.  It determines, without taking certain things into account, what your ability to get a loan will be, and the rate you pay.  

      I feel it's rigged, in a way.  

    •  Second mortgages aren't always bad (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      arodb

      We needed one to replace the heating system and roof in our last house. It's not money we could save up, since the furnace had died with great fanfare in the Vermont winter, and HAD to be replaced. We decided it was OK to take a loan on the house for this because it was essentially paying for more house.

  •  I stopped by your diary page (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, PAbluestater, arodb

    and caught the piece you wrote a couple of weeks ago pointing out how ultimately damaging it will most likely prove out to be that a certain candidate has been put on such a sky-high and untouchable pedestal.
    Just wanted you to know that some of us do see what is coming and you did not deserve all of the negative ratings at all. The fact that they do react like that is just really telling...such an indication of just how secure they really are about the whole thing.
    It's only as I get older that I realize how ultimately unsatisfying it is to ever be in an 'I told you so' position. It's just really awful to see that train heading 100 miles an hour towards a brick wall and nobody can hear the warnings.
    I mean, not only is there no where to go but waayy down at this point, it's the cynicism that will follow in that wake. Talk about a pied piper.
    I keep telling my son: "he's a politician." And I know he hears me, but he just wants it all to be the fairy-tale so much.

    "God is not on the side of the heavy battalions, but of the best shots."- Voltaire

    by armenia on Wed Apr 02, 2008 at 10:13:29 PM PDT

    •  Thanks armenia... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PAbluestater, armenia

      even though I felt I was right, I was a bit devastated by the deluge of TRs.  And for a while I stayed away, and then only touched on safe subjects.

      But I felt like a sell out.  And I'm selling out a bit too cheap, based on my income here.

      So, now I'm somewhat back to normal.  I still don't go against the sentiment when there is no chance of making an impact, but I try to be honest in what I write, and that does provide satisfaction.

      And then, even on this diary, I connected to the person ,who is really in difficult financial straits.  And, it helps me to remember how diverse the country and the readership here is.

      This is a special place, Dailykos, with all of its many defects.  

  •  Why does our government encourage suburban sprawl (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PAbluestater, debedb, arodb

    ?

    It is pretty obvious that bailing out homeowners will screw over the poor.  The poor will find housing more expensive and everything else will be more expensive also since overpriced housing can only stay overpriced by raising the price of everything else.  

  •  Not sure what best solution is (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, arodb

    I really want criminal charges for fraudulent and predatory practices.

    And I am also angry that some homeowners will get a bailout on a mortgage on a big McMansion that I could not afford when I bought my home. But since many will have their credit destroyed - I probably shouldn't be angry.

    I do feel that this is very wrong Housing Accord Puts Builders First

    Home builders and other businesses suffering losses in the flagging economy, meanwhile, would get the lion's share of federal spending in the bill: $6 billion in tax rebates.

    Very bad senate bill.

    47 million Uninsured in the U.S. Why aren't more Americans outraged?

    by PAbluestater on Thu Apr 03, 2008 at 08:01:33 AM PDT

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