How Immigrants Saved Social Security

The other day the New York Times had an interesting article about the positive impact that "other than legal" immigrants have on the Social Security system, usually meaning undocumented immigrants.

In the fine print of the 2008 annual report on Social Security, released last week, the program’s trustees noted that growing numbers of "other than legal" workers are expected to bolster the program over the coming decades.

As I've said before, so many right wingnuts (and far too many on the left) just talk about how undocumented immigrants hurt their life. This is just one of many examples that show that nasty anti-immigrant rhetoric  doesn't match reality.

The NY Times explains how the Social Security system benefits from the undocumented.

One reason is that many undocumented workers pay taxes during their work lives but don’t collect benefits later. Another is that undocumented workers are entering the United States at ever younger ages and are expected to have more children while they’re here than if they arrived at later ages. The result is a substantial increase in the number of working-age people paying taxes, but a relatively smaller increase in the number of retirees who receive benefits — a double boon to Social Security’s bottom line.

I'd like to see more of this non partisan data make it into the MSP. It seems the xenophobic, anti-immigrant, hate groups spread their unverified, incorrect data and it gets accepted as truth. These distortions are accepted as true, even though they come from known anti-immigrant sources (that are frequently recognised hate groups or their affiliates).

According to the2008 report of the Social Security Trustees the "actuarial balance" of the system is better than it's been since 1993. The cause is "[I]mmigrants. To be specific, better estimates of the taxes and benefits received by illegal immigrants — or, as the trustees refer to them, "other-immigrants".

Kevin Drum sums it up nicely (except undocumented would be preferable to illegal) "it turns out that this shores up the Social Security system to the tune of around $13 billion per year.
Thanks, illegal immigrants!".

•  Retirement fund jar.

  by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:47:36 PM PDT

•  So

  it is A-OK to force people to pay into a system you know they aren't going to collect from?  Isn't that kind of like stealing?

  I don't feel too bad for them because they know that is part of the deal, but I find it disconcerting for liberals to be celebrating forced confiscation from some of the more vulnerable members of society.

  by headhunt23 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:48:11 PM PDT

  •  Your concern is noted.

    I assume you must be in favor of comprehensive immigration reform, so we aren't forcefully confiscating from these vulnerable memebers of our society.

    by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:58:25 PM PDT

    •  I will be

      after a wall is up.

      Don't talk to me about reform until we have taken care of prevention so we aren't dancing this same dance again in 20 years.

      by headhunt23 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:03:30 PM PDT

      •  Most of the undocumented came legally.

        Would you recommend locking up the country?

        by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:15:46 PM PDT

        •  How did they come here legally?

          I don't understand.

          by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:29:01 PM PDT

          •  overstayed Visas

            by headhunt23 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:32:10 PM PDT

            •  That's illegal. Maybe we shouldn't extend

              student visas if the system is going to be abused.

              by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:39:56 PM PDT

              •  I don't agree with that

                I think it is good for us to take in students and export our experience.

                I actually think we should just allow more of those kids to stay here after their education is over.  The main problem I have with our immigration policy is that the chief people we let into the country are uneducated laborers, and we make doctors and scientists take a number.

                by headhunt23 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:43:02 PM PDT

                •  But that would not please the Hispanic activists

                  I'm not sure that there are as many Hispanic doctors and scientists as there are from Asian or European countries.

                  by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:53:33 PM PDT

                  •  That I agree with.

                    We could do brain drain on most other countries, but elect not to.

                    the most incredible competitive advantage in today's economy, and we just squander it.

                    by headhunt23 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:55:04 PM PDT

        •  There you go

          Immigration advocates are always trying to throw this red herring out.

          Very few people are in the "round 'em all up" camp.  I certainly am not.

          But, we've been fed this amnesty crap twice - every 20 years.  and every 20 years we end up with 5-10x as many illegals to provide amnesty for and the borders don't get closed.

          So, when we get the borders closed, I will be more than happy to vote for a path to legality, and I'll escew those bullshit "touchback" provisions.  I won't even care too much about a fine.

          But, not until we have border security.  Real. Physical. Security.

          Come back then.  We might be slow learners, but we've learned after your lobby has pulled the wool over our eyes 2x before.

          by headhunt23 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:31:55 PM PDT

    •  At which point the majority of these workers

      Will become eligible for Social Security and, as with IRCA in 1986, Congress will mandate that they be credited with any contributions which they have made into the system.

      So remind, how is it that illegal immigrants will have saved Social Security once you have changed their legal status?

      The whole 'illegal immigrants are saving Social Security' only works for the case where you maintain the status quo.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:38:28 PM PDT

      •  As I said before, they are young and they have

        children and they will pay into the system for many years, before receiving anything back. Some won't get anything back, because the leave or don't qualify. But they will pay for our retirement, whether you recognise it or not.

        by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:43:24 PM PDT

        •  And as I replied

          Illegal immigrants make an average of $29,500 per year, and the graduation rate for Latinos (and face it the majority of illegal immigrants are from Mexico whether you choose to admit it or not) is less than 50%.

          There are 700,000 children in the LA Unified School District, and less than half of them speak English. Yet somehow these children are going to pay for my retirement.

          But they will pay for our retirement

          Yeah, 'cause that guy with less than a ninth grade education who is roofing houses for 8 dollars an hour is not only going to be able to do that job for the next twenty years, he is suddenly going to get a raise to $45 per hour so as to be able to contribute enough to Social Security so as to pay for my retirement.

          Think about steppin' away from that crack pipe for a couple of days.

          If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:49:51 PM PDT

    •  Thanks for the comment cachola. We need more pro

      immigrant voices here. You wouldn't think this was a progressive political blog, considering most of the comments, would you?

      by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:53:36 PM PDT

      •  Does progressive equal asshole to you?

        We tried what you are suggesting before, it didn't work. When you grant amnesty to the people here illegally, all you are doing is setting it up for the next wave of illegals. DO you really think that, once legal, they will work for the same wages? Of course not, then the new wave comes in to undercut their wages. Where does it leave all of that legal unskilled labor after that happens?, a drain on society.

        by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:00:25 PM PDT

        •  Why do you assume it didn't work? They're

          mostly citizens now and so are their kids. I don't have the distaste for immigrants that you seem to. Immigrants enrich our lives and should be applauded, not disrespected.

          by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:12:56 PM PDT

          •  It worked? What have you been smoking?

            I don't have a dislike for immigrants, I don't like illegal aliens. Stop trying to confuse the two groups. You are practicing racist behavior. Let me ask you, what do you have against Asians, Africans, Europeans? You seem very willing to legalize 25 million illegal Hispanics at the expense of the right of these groups to enter legally. Or are you suggesting that we just allow everyone to come into the country without ant restrictions? Stop trying to con American citizens. Put your efforts into fixing Mexico's problems instead of running away to America and expecting us to take care of you.

            by Purple Hazer on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:03:31 AM PDT

      •  Bullshit

        You wouldn't think this was a progressive political blog

        You talk about 'pro-immigrant' voices, yet you cannot even define the term 'immigrant'.

        As to this being a 'progressive political blog', what is 'progressive' about ignoring existing immigration law and advocating for people who enter the country illegally and then commit a series of felonies in order to stay in the country?

        If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

        by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:03:42 PM PDT

        •  Yeah that's right

          Hide my comments. That's going to win the argument for you -- after all -- it's been workin' out great for you so far.

          If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:13:49 PM PDT

          •  The hide was for the

            advocating for people who enter the country illegally and then commit a series of felonies in order to stay in the country?

            Undocumented immigrants commit far less crime per capita than U.S. citizens. You are unfairly and untruthfully criminalizing a group undeservedly.

            by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 07:49:46 PM PDT

            •  You have no fucking clue what

              You are talking about.

              I am talking about the felonies that every illegal immigrant who is working in this country commits in order to be able to work in this country.

              Have you ever read the back of an I9 form?

              I am aware that federal law provides for
              imprisonment and/or fines for false statements or
              use of false documents in connection with the  
              completion of this form.

              I attest, under penalty of perjury, that I am (check one of the following):

              -- A lawful permanent resident (Alien #) A
              -- A citizen or national of the United States
              -- An alien authorized to work until

              Did you know that the I9 did not exist until 1986?

              The I9 form was part of the 1986 IRCA and was created to make the illegal immigrant just as guilty for taking a job illegally as the employer for hiring him or her.

              If I buy your Social Security card downtown and use that card to get a job illegally in the US it is a felony.

              Now I know that because you are a 'progressive' you have one set of laws for one group of people and another set of laws for another group, but these are federal felonies just the same.

              If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:03:22 AM PDT

•  That premise just leads to the conclusion

  that the illegal immigrants should stay just that, illegal immigrants.

  by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:52:00 PM PDT

  •  True, but

    I think it points to the larger point that the full impact of illegal immigrant labor is not recognized.

    by Blue Orb on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:53:19 PM PDT

    •  That's right. They do so much work that doesn't

      get properly appreciated.

      by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:12:18 PM PDT

    •  They may be paying into SS, but the

      drag on the rest of the economy is substantial.  

      Our schools are overloaded with kids who are illiterate in two languages. Many who have no interest in learning English.

      Our hospitals are overwhelmed by people seeking medical services who are not insured and who have a variety of diseases that were eradicted here years ago.

      The assumption that these people will continue to pay in to SS without ever taking anything out is silly.  They only have to hang on long enough for another amnesty to become "legalized".  The bill last year gave instant legal status to simply everyone, so every person at that point could apply for legal status and start paying into a system that they would also be taking money out of.

      There are SS offices set-up in Mexico.  What's that about?  Clearly there are enough people in Mexico that are receiving or are eligable for payments to warrant offices there.  Plus Bush's little deals with Mexico also involve paying SS to Mexican nationals who have worked in the US.

      by importer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:12:27 PM PDT

      •  There are hundreds of thousands of U.S. citizens

        living in Mexico. And the undocumented don't qualify for benefits. I don't know about the Bush deal.
        That's true there will eventually be an amnesty. But the undocumented workers and their children will pay in for many years before taking out. And not everyone will qualify.

        by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:21:41 PM PDT

        •  Not sure about your point

          But the undocumented workers and their children will pay in for many years before taking out.

          I understand your point about illegals paying in and not getting anything out, but your point about their children is lost on me. My children will pay into the system for many years before taking anything out as well, that's if the system is still solvent..

          by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:28:07 PM PDT

          •  My point is that some will not get anything back.

            But most will. But they, and their children, won't get money back for a long time. They and their children will help pay for our retirement.
            You can only mistreat, squeeze and deport people so much, before you build up a lot of resentment.
            That's not a a policy that progressive minded Americans can be proud of.

            by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:36:40 PM PDT

            •  If the net result is that immigrants cost the

              nation more than they contribute, what's your point?
              That social security might get a benefit from them. What's the benefit to our social service system, or educational system or health care sytem?

              by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:43:00 PM PDT

        •  Sure they do

          And the undocumented don't qualify for benefits. I don't know about the Bush deal

          There are many Federal and state programs where there is no requirement to prove citizenship, WIC, school lunch and breakfast programs, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

          Beyond that you don't address the US born children of illegal immigrants, and please keep the 'but they are US citizens' reply to yourself, as it assumes the predicate that the illegal immigrant is in he country to give birth to the US born child to begin with.

          But the undocumented workers and their children will pay in for many years before taking out

          How does a group of individuals who make an average of $29,500 per year pay more in taxes than they use in state and federal services?

          If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:44:21 PM PDT

        •  Oh, they'll all be getting ss out of our system..

          Your whole theory is BS, because there is a plan in the works to pay out SS by the boatload to illegals.

          http://www.tscl.org/...

          A loophole in current Social Security law could allow millions of today's Mexican workers to eventually collect billions of dollars worth of Social Security benefits for earnings under fraudulent or "non-work authorized" Social Security numbers, putting huge new pressures on the Social Security Trust Fund.

          Wonder how that loophole just happens to be there!

          by importer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:15:54 PM PDT

          •  That sounds like a lie. Where's the law?

            Where's the linked data? They make the claim but don't back it up with anything but anti immigrant rantings.
            Where's the loophole? An government source for the accusation?

            by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 07:58:42 PM PDT

  •  No, that would be unfair. They are young and

    they are having families that will pay into social securtity for many years before using benefits. And of course many won't receive their benefits ever. Very unfair in a humane society.

    by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:01:29 PM PDT

    •  Some might pay into social security, at least the

      ones that aren't paid in cash. Don't disregard the fact that most are paying social security taxes and are not paying their fair share of federal, state and local taxes. They are declaring the maximum amount of deductions to pay as little as possible, all the while using all of our resources. I know this from personal observation and also from being told by illegals. Don't even get me started on education costs and free healthcare.

      by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:14:40 PM PDT

      •  Where does your data come from?

        Personal experience is not a good indicator. So if we had comprehensive immigration reform it would be easier for them to pay taxes.
        All government statistics show that undocumented immigrants use MUCH less medical resources per capita. It's a tiny percentage of what your average American citizen uses.
        And those students that you demonize will pay your for your retirement, whether you recognise it or not.

        by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:29:44 PM PDT

        •  Is that why hospitals all across California and

          Texas are out of business? Why should millions of Hispanics be allowed to become citizens while millions of people in other countries are waiting, legally, to enter? Sounds racist to me.

          by Purple Hazer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:38:41 PM PDT

          •  If hospitals in California and Texas are going

            out of business how can you blame the undocumented. Give me statistics or links, but not from an anti immigrant group. Immigrants create jobs; they don't take them away. They do undesirable jobs and they help to make up for our substandard American schools. We need immigrants to maintain our standard of living.
            You're blaming the wrong people for the economy. It's Bush and the Republicans and their policies that deserve the blame.

            by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:05:32 PM PDT

            •  How many jobs do they create?

              Immigrants create jobs; they don't take them away

              And what are the quality of those jobs?

              Give me statistics or links

              You demand from others what you are not willing to do yourself.

              Show me some statistics as to the numbers and types of jobs that illegal immigrants create.

              they help to make up for our substandard American schools.

              I have no idea what you are talking about here, but that's okay 'cause I have an idea that you don't either.

              If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:12:06 PM PDT

              •  Superscaler, your distaste for immigrants are

                well known here. I've always asked you for links. The only ones you ever quoted were from anti immigrant groups. I have links here in my post from a non partisan source and you still just want to see the negative side of immigrants.

                by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:16:15 PM PDT

                •  You are a liar

                  But prove that I don't know what I am talking about and I just have a 'distaste for immigrants' as you put it.

                  Put up some statistics to show the number and quality of jobs that illegal immigrants create.

                  The only ones you ever quoted were from anti immigrant groups

                  You see there you are just lying.

                  Much of the statistics I quote come from the PEW Hispanic Center and is in The Size and Characteristics of the Unauthorized Migrant Population in the U.S.. I also use The Yearbook of Immigration Statistics.

                  So on top of being disingenuous, twisting words and using semantics, you have started to lie as well.

                  If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                  by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:26:31 PM PDT

                  •  Here is another little statistic....

                    about illegals and our SS system.

                    For example, a worker who turns 62 after 1990 generally needs 40 calendar quarters of coverage to receive retirement benefits. Under totalization agreements, workers are allowed to combine earnings from both countries in order to qualify for benefits. The Agreement with Mexico, like other totalization agreements, would allow workers to qualify with just six quarters, or 18 months, of U.S. coverage.  

                    http://www.tscl.org/...

                    I'd like that deal.  I've been paying into this system for 50 years, now we are going to shovel the money out the window and over the border for people working here for a few quarters.....

                    IT IS JUST INSANE AND GETTING MORE INSANE BY THE MINUTE.

                    by importer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:38:12 PM PDT

                    •  You should have seen this coming three years ago

                      When S2611 was being voted on. Virtually all of the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee voted to allow illegal immigrants to receive Social Security benefits irrespective of the fact that they may have been making contributions into accounts which were not theirs.

                      From Senator Feinstein 'On The Issues'.

                      Opponents of the amendment say to vote YEA because:

                      * Americans understand that for years there are undocumented workers who have tried to follow our laws and be good neighbors and good citizens, and have paid into the Social Security Trust Fund.

                      * Once that person regularizes his or her status, and as they proceed down the path to earned citizenship, they should have the benefit after having followed the law and made those contributions. That is fairness.

                      * We should not steal their funds or empty their Social Security accounts. That is not fair. It does not reward their hard work or their financial contributions.

                      * The amendment proposes to change existing law to prohibit an individual from gaining the benefit of any contributions made while the individual was in an undocumented status. I oppose this amendment and believe it is wrong.

                      The truly classic bits of this being 'for years there are undocumented workers who have tried to follow our laws', and 'We should not steal their funds or empty their Social Security accounts'.

                      I will suspend comment on the 'following of laws' bit, but the part about 'emptying their Social Security accounts' is just priceless given by definition an illegal immigrant cannot have a Social Security account because by law an illegal immigrant cannot have a Social Security number.

                      Whose accounts will these contributions be backed out of, who is going to do it, and how are they going to figure out what to back out to begin with?

                      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                      by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:04:41 PM PDT

                      •  I saw it coming, it is just hard to get the word

                        out, when you do, people think you're joking.

                        Who would think that our government is working overtime to give our SS funds - the funds they say are in danger of running out every chance they get - to people from other countries for working here for a mere 18 months?

                        If I read it correctly, all the H-1/2 would qualify by merely working here for 18 months. If that is the case, the SS funds will be looted by every country that is sending us workers.

                        by importer on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:36:37 PM PDT

                  •  Thanks for the link. Pew is pretty good. And

                    they say so many positive things about undocumented immigrants. Can't you find them for your comments?

                    Some interesting stats on Immigrants

                    They made up ... 24% of all workers employed in farming occupations, 17% in cleaning, 14% in construction and 12% in food preparation.

                    Unauthorized migrants accounted for 30% of the foreign-born population in 2005.
                    Another 28% were legal permanent residents, and 31% were U.S. citizens by
                    naturalization.

                    This report uses the term "unauthorized migrant" to
                    mean a person who resides in the United States but who is not a U.S. citizen, has not been admitted for permanent residence, and is not in a set of specific authorized temporary statuses permitting longer-term residence and work.

                    • Nearly two-thirds (64%) of the children living in unauthorized families are U.S. citizens by birth, an
                    estimated 3.1 million children in 2005.
                    

                    Can you imaging what those kids are going through every day, worrying about their parents.

                    I don't see anything anti immigrant about PEW.

                    When I ask you to provide inks, I mean links that say undocumented immigrants are as bad for the economy as you seem to always say.

                    by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:04:15 PM PDT

              •  Here are some links. They're not hard to find.

                Immigrants list has links to govenment sources.

                by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:22:23 PM PDT

                •  Bullshit

                  You mix up legal immigrants with illegal immigrants, just as the link you supplied does, and then expect everybody to just fall in line and accept what you say.

                  You mix up cheap illegal stoop labor in the form of the worlds poorest and least educated with the Indian doctor or the Russian physicist who waited years in their own country for a shot at LPR in the US, and expect everybody to just say 'oh yeah, well that makes a lot of sense'.

                  The stink from this diary is pervasive.

                  If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                  by superscalar on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:32:18 PM PDT

                  •  Here's a Pew link to info about the undocumented

                    and economic Myths and Facts about the undocumented.

                    MYTH:
                    Sending undocumented workers back to their native countries would have no real negative economic effect.

                    FACT:
                    The impact would actually be significant. Rice sociology professor Stephen Klineberg says, "America is totally dependent on the hard work and wages of these workers. They are critical to the economic success and well-being of America." The Pew Hispanic Center says industries that would be particularly affected are service (32 percent of workers are unauthorized); construction (19 percent), production-installation-repair (15 percent); sales and administrative support (12 percent); and management, business, and professional (10 percent).

                    Now you can use Pew to show how vital the undocumented are to our economy.

                    by immigradvocate on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 08:30:46 PM PDT

                    •  They make up large percentages of those

                      industries because they are willing to undercut the salaries that legal residents of the U.S. are willing to take. If we do as you propose, grant amnesty and award the illegals the same rights as citizens, do you think that they will work for those wages? They will demand workers rights, higher wages, benefits, etc.. What happens next?
                      A new wave of illegals come in and work for less than the newly legalized workers and the cycle starts all over again.

                      Sometimes a little coomon sense is better than a biased link on the web. Stop playing people for fools.

                      by Purple Hazer on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:14:29 AM PDT

                      •  Your anti immigrant blogger buddy superscaler was

                        the one who used PEW as his source.
                        The point I'm trying to make is that you anti undocumented (and anti immigrant) people say that they are bad for the economy. But most of the non partisan sources say that the undocumented have a positive effect on the economy. Where are the non partisan studies that say the undocumented are bad for the economy?

                        by immigradvocate on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 02:52:21 PM PDT

•  I am aware

  that the whole workers/retirees numbers are soon going to look much like Japan's and immigration is one 'safety valve' to take pressure.   I have some friends who maybe aren't as pro-immigration as I am, so will occasionally point out to one or another of them when on a rant, that a family with several small children represent my best shot at a social security check.

  But this one aspect overlooks more serious issues, these people need a way to become legal.  We need to address issues of schools being given help with extra resources to deal with esl, and remedial issues, because most students quickly rise to grade level but the first year or so in school is very hard and hard on the resources of school systems.  We need to have adult education classes.  We need health care reform to provide better care, wellness and eliminate emergency room treatment as first choice medical provider.

  We need to make sure that we address policy, permanent residents/citizens vs. guest worker, what do we want to encourage, etc.

  We need to address population growth, resource utilization, on so many levels, while I believe that given land mass, there is room for the population to grow, given resource utilization, we need to address agriculture policy, energy, etc.

  I would like to see America commit to still being a land of opportunity for immigrants.  But we need to be responsible about the environment, poverty, education ,etc as well so that we remain a land of opportunity for all.

  by jfromga on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:09:36 PM PDT