Daily Kos

Defending John Yoo

Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:51:43 PM PDT

I hate to be forced into the position of defending the academic rights of someone as universally abhorred and who I personally find extremely repellent, but recent diaries arguing for public interference in academia have got me riled, so here goes.

Last night a diary popped up which argued that John Yoo, former assistant DA in the Department of Justice and author of the infamous "torture memo" should be fired from his tenured position at UC Berkeley Boalt Hall because of his role in the writing of the memo.

Here is some of the diary, a section which argued that we in the Netroots, believers in freedom of speech, should interfere in the realm of academia because we're angry at what John Yoo wrote:

I want to know, is there any way that we, as the netroots, can start a push to at least force UC Berkeley to fire Yoo? If Yoo can not just argue for, but enable, such depravity and not be punished for it, then who is to stop the next John Yoo? We cannot allow this type of depravity to stand.

Additional comments backed this view up and argued for the trial and execution of Yoo.

He is one of the 33 members of the neocon cabal who will face prosecution and hopefully, be sentenced to death for war crimes and treason.

And an opposing and well thought-out alternative view:

As much as I detest Yoo, some of these comments are just plain scary.  I got my PhD at Berkeley, a place with extraordinary ideological diversity and I would hope it stays that way.   I find Yoo's arguments and claims beyond reprehensible, but intellectual freedom remains, for me, the highest virtue of the university.   Should he be ostracized from the "community"?   Perhaps.  Should he be fired?  My god, no.  

Kossacks don't govern my college, nor will they rule on my tenure.  And, above all, I would fear the consequences of these arguments for the left (let's admit that the university is one place where there is more of "us" than "them") -- targeted attacks on left-wing professors have been a staple of the right-wing, particularly those shaped by the culture wars.  David Horowitz would be salivating at the thought that the left might be just as willing to trample upon academic freedom as he is -- and for his "most dangerous professors in america" list (it is a sincere professional ambition to make it on that list one day), the kossacks will have their own?

Again, I'm not defending John Yoo or what he wrote or his tenure at Justice. I AM defending his right to express opinions that I find abhorrent and wrong. That is an absolute for me. Tenure is designed to allow a professor to express radical or unpopular points of view without fear of losing their jobs. So the diarist is incorrect, we absolutely CAN allow "this deparavity to stand" because not doing so is lowering ourselves to the level of the writer of the depravity in the first place.

I've got a dog in this fight. I used to be a student at UC Berkeley, took a legal studies class at Boalt Hall and am a current student at NYU. I take a very, very dim view of any attempt to interfere in the tenure process or in actions to remove tenured professors. My record on this issue is clear.

I feel that Alan Dershowitz's campaign to deny Norman Finkelstein tenure at De Paul was wrong and I am a committed Zionist with a deep abhorrence of Finkelstein's views on both the Holocaust and Israel. Outside campaigns to either deny or revoke tenure of professors are dangerous and antithetical to free expression in academia and they must be fought at all costs. Tenure can only be withdrawn by a vote of the Regents of a particular academic institution or system and should only be done so in instances of criminal behavior or academic dishonesty.

Yoo's interpretation of the law was incorrect in my view and goes against over 200 years of constitutional law as well as customary international law and treaty law. It was wrong. His interpretations will not stand the test of time or the rigors of academic or legal scrutiny but none of those rises to the level of calling for a revocation of tenure.

As progressives and reformers but most importantly as Americans we must uphold the ideals of this country above our (in some cases justified) desire for revenge and justice. By fanning the flames of this intellectual witchhunt we undermine our own claims to be defenders of the US Constitution and the true protectors of our civil liberties. Sometimes one must run the risk of otracization and unpopularity in pursuit of a greater cause - in this case that of academic freedom. As a student and a believer in the rights of free speech I'd say the same thing about any of you that I am saying about John Yoo - that our community is better than stooping to the lows of the right-wing and anti-academics like David Horowitz.

Tags: John Yoo, Academic Freedom, Boalt Hall, UC Berkeley, Torture Memo (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 181 comments

  •  It reflects (13+ / 0-)

    It reflects on Berkeley.  If they want to hire and protect torturers, then it is their reputation at stake.  
    personally I think many of these schools reps are now just bought and not earned.

    Dont even get me started at what a big business and "scam" I think higher education is in this country.

  •  Alas, liberals suffer from totalitarianism, too (10+ / 0-)

    If there's anyone who thinks that liberals can't be totalitarian and authoritarian, I would direct them to learn about Mao Zedong, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, and a raft of leftist activists who thought they had the right to suppress speech with which they disagreed -- to dictate what was ans was not acceptable thought.

    I think what troubles me more than anything else about a large number of the diaries I read here is that they express certainty about issues, where there is none, and lambast anyone who holds a contrarian view. The authoritarian mindset isn't the sole province of Republicans.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 12:58:38 PM PDT

    •  Actually, I tend to (8+ / 0-)

      be suspect of the broad brush approach no matter what your political persuasion.

      Alas, liberals suffer from totalitarianism, too

      My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:01:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  These people were liberals? (11+ / 0-)

      Mao Zedong, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, ...

      Since when can these people be described as liberal. "Left" doesn't have the same connotation used in respect to these folks as it does in current U.S. politics. Or are you saying leftist Democrats are no different from Mao, Castro, Lenin, Stalin. These people may have been labeled as leftist, but liberal? Never.

      noli, amabo, verberare lapidem ne perdas manum -- Plautus

      by fritzrth on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:08:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Distinctions can be made.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        fritzrth

        and I think yours were correct.  But the traditional definitions of political 'left' and 'right' put communism at the far left and fascism at the far right.

        Most of today's liberals are pretty much in the middle of the road politically when you use the definitions above.  Today's conservatives like Cheney and Bush are pretty damn close to the far right wing.

        "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

        by cometman on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:45:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Far enough. Leftists, then (0+ / 0-)

        The point is stil the same.

        Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

        by FischFry on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 08:04:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Huh? (12+ / 0-)

      We're not talking about rounding up a posse to get Glenn Reynolds fired because he wrote something we didn't like.

      We're talking about someone who took part in a conspriacy to commit war crimes. This would be like having Albert Speer teach at UT-Austin.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:11:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  People were tortured! (8+ / 0-)

        People were tortured and KILLED because of what Yoo wrote!!  How can anyone say he should not be held responsible for that?!  
        He should not be teaching at Berkley, he should not be teaching at ALL!  He should be sitting in a prison!  
        I am all for Freedom of Speech but when what you say or do causes harm and DEATH to others, you must be held accountable!
        My head is about to explode to think that we should let Yoo go about his life without ANY reprocussion for what he has caused.

      •  Exactly, right, eugene (5+ / 0-)

        This isn't about stifling an opposing viewpoint but prosecuting criminal behavior and calling into question the credentials of someone who was so abjectly wrong about something in which he is supposedly expert.  

        Perhaps a way around this would be to see him disbarred and then fired for not having the proper qualifications to teach at UC (of course not being admitted to bar within some jurisdiction may not be disqualifying but being disbarred probably is).

        Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

        by lgrooney on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:34:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm with you on this one. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene

        If he had merely presented this views as an academic exercise that would be one thing.

        But he was asked to defend torture by the President of the United States and he did so, and presumably he was paid for his duties as an advisor.

        What he has done is far beyond mere words and ideas being presented in a classroom.  He has aided and abetted activities which are illegal under international law.

        "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

        by cometman on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:48:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So, to my understanding, has Scalia (0+ / 0-)

          and Thomas and a lot of other members of the Bar who don't even believe in international law in the first place.

          •  I'm not particularly fond... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            eugene

            of them either.  And unlike Yoo, they can't hide behind the veil of academic freedom.

            But they can be impeached.  I think that would be highly appropriate for any justice who has gone against international law. Our own constitution says that any treaties and international agreements are the supremem law of the land.

            I think impeachment for incompetence is appropriate as well for any justice who made a ruling which was not designed to set precedent for one man only, which was done in the Bush v Gore decision in 2000.

            But I'm not a lawyer.  I'm not sure if you're coming at this from a legal standpoint or an academic one, but you probably know more than I do about the legality of these things.

            "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

            by cometman on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:06:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The far left and the far right (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      FischFry, Shane Hensinger

      are almost one and the same.

      Authoritarianism is their shared illness, their disease and blight.

      •  Prove it. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ExStr8

        Otherwise I have to call bullshit.

        •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Shane Hensinger

          Have you or have you not heard of Communism?  Mao?  Stalin?  Pol Pot?

          Are these concepts foreign to you, or are you simply in denial?

          •  Authoritarianism is the right (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            fritzrth, robroser

            no matter what label one slaps on one's own political philosophy!  The extreme left would be anarchy, not dictatorship under the label of Communism or Socialism!

            Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

            by lgrooney on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:42:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are many who would argue that the extreme (0+ / 0-)

              right's position on governmental non-intervention in business and private affairs (hard Libertarianism) to be anarchy.

              I always thought the basic metric was on governmental control of industry.  The "left" believes in oversight, the "right" in pure marketplace intervention.  There is also the concept of the "left" as believing in personal freedoms in terms of classical liberalism, which has morphed into Libertarianism.

              •  In the United States (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                pasadena beggar

                the far right's position is non-intervention in business and governmental control of private affairs.

                noli, amabo, verberare lapidem ne perdas manum -- Plautus

                by fritzrth on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:48:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Note the word "extreme" (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  fritzrth, Shane Hensinger

                  The most right-wing on the US dial is the (so soon we forget their names... Texas, got it!) Ron Paul branch.  van Mises and Chicago school blended with Pat Robertson.

                  the US's far right isn't really ideologically motivated so much as they are a weird and fucking sick combination of economic classical liberalism, and religious fanaticism.

                  And a dose of reality denial.

              •  "there are many"? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Pescadero Bill

                Please, find firmer terra for that notion.

                You are partly right in framing the matter as control but there is also the issue of rights and ownership and responsibility and law, e.g., governmental control of industry could go many ways because then one would need to ask, "Who controls the government?"

                Extreme leftism would mean anarchy in that ownership, control, law, and responsibility are so diffuse, i.e., individualized, as to be nonexistent except in a society of perfectly responsible (to that society) individuals.

                The right's version is making ownership, control and law (and responsibility in the most honest sense - but who needs honesty when one has ownership, control and the law in one's hands?) as concentrated as possible, e.g., in an individual (autocracy), a cabal (oligarchy), a family (monarchy), etc.

                Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

                by lgrooney on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:58:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Totalitarian dictators... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pescadero Bill, fritzrth

            who used communism to gain power are not quite the same as people who genuinely believe in equality for everyone.

            The theory underlying communism is equality for all...Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin never believed in equality.

            They were as right-wing as it gets, they only used the cover of a communist government to be able to preach about 'The People'. The only people any of them gave a shit about were themselves.

            The penalty that good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. - Plato

            by robroser on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:45:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So if they stray from the path (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Shane Hensinger

              they switch sides, even if their framework is generally what we consider as "left" politics?

              So what about the rebels in communist rebels in Peru?  They've done quite a bit of harm but follow left-wing ideology.  Have they "strayed" from the path?  What about Castro?  Left or right?

              •  Stray from the path? (0+ / 0-)

                Get real...they never strayed from their path. They used Communist rhetoric to gain power for their own sake. No more and no less.

                Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot weren't communists...they were totalitarians running corrupt, authoritarian systems.

                Using the word liberal in the same sentence as any of their names is laughable.

                The penalty that good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. - Plato

                by robroser on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:55:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are mistaking the meaning of the word (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Shane Hensinger

                  liberal for "left-wing".

                  They aren't necessarily the same thing.

                  You are the one who is changing the meaning of the words, not me.  Where did I say "liberal"?

                  •  Yep... (0+ / 0-)

                    I confused your comment with fischfry's regarding the use of the word liberal.

                    That said, Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin were all right-wingers. The only thing differentiating them from the Hitlers of the world is the name of the system that they co-opted in their quest for personal power.

                    They were no more communists than Hitler was a socialist.

                    The penalty that good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. - Plato

                    by robroser on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:06:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  At the same time (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Shane Hensinger

                      Stalin didn't usurp the system he was in, he was simply the worst of its offenders.  There were millions of people in Communist USSR who lost their freedom and often their lives during the rein of other General Secretaries.  Similarly in China it wasn't all Mao's doings.  And yet further, these men didn't seize power through supernatural means, willing men and women aided and assisted in their assents and subversions of power, and many of them did it not for personal gain, but because they believed in the Communist ideology.

                      Any philosophy has the ability to "warp mens' minds", even those which start with good intentions.

                  •  Frri enough (0+ / 0-)

                    Swap left-wing then in for liberal. It's a better descriptor of the people I was referring to.

                    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                    by FischFry on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 08:05:44 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think you seriously mean (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      fritzrth, trashablanca, robroser

      to suggest that Mao, Lenin, Stalin and Castro can be called liberals! No serious scholar of any stripe would call them liberals. They themselves would spit on the word. To be a liberal, you must believe in a pluralistic society that protects views and opinions across a broad range. That definitely does not describe these characters.

  •  I am not one to (19+ / 0-)

    hammer a university with a demand for firing anyone -- they can choose to bear the honor or disgrace of any faculty member.  My problem with your argument

    I AM defending his right to express opinions that I find abhorrent and wrong.

    is this.

    Expressing opinions protected by free speech is sancrosanct for me -- unless they exceed the narrowly tailored exceptions.  However, I do not see the "torture" memo as an expression of free speech.  It is a "tortured" legal memo designed to protect the Administration from some of the most abhorrant acts against humans.  If this were a legal memo found in any WWII German files -- it would have been used at the Nuremburg trials.

    Berkley is welcome to keep Yoo -- it saves the rest of the nation's law schools from his contamination.

    And I am glad you posted this diary and hope that the dialogue can be more intellectual than emotional diatribe.

    My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:00:12 PM PDT

    •  I've seen radical interpretations of the law (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RonV, gchaucer2, limpidglass, Fernham

      which I regard as horrific and Yoo's is one of those. But an attorney in Yoo's position was charged with tailoring the law to allow the Bush admin. to do what it wanted. Attorneys are taught that the consequences of them defending the indefensible aren't their problem because everyone and everything deserves a defense in the first place. Is this wrong? Perhaps but it's also the basis of the right to defense and underlies the practice of law in the first place.

      •  You defend (8+ / 0-)

        individuals alleged to have committed crimes.

        You don't defend the right to commit crimes before they've been committed.

        Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

        by drbloodaxe on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:07:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Justice Department does (0+ / 0-)

          exactly that - decides the scope and breadth of the laws to which the US is party and if it's wrong then the courts correct it - that's the way the system is designed to work.

          •  Exactly how (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            eugene, fritzrth, ExStr8, Phil N DeBlanc

            are the courts supposed to correct interpretations that the Justice Department keeps secret?

            The system was not working as designed, from the moment the DoJ was remade into a republican political entity.

            Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

            by drbloodaxe on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:10:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Indeed, I agree (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              RonV, Pd

              But what does that have to do with Yoo's job teaching at Berkeley? You disagree with his interpretations, as do I. Does a disagreement mean he should be fired?

              •  No (5+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                RonV, fritzrth, ExStr8, Tonedevil, gchaucer2

                as I said in my other post, he shouldn't be fired for the memo.

                He should be convicted of war crimes, and lose his position as a secondary consequence of that conviction.

                Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                by drbloodaxe on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:16:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  he should be fired (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  elmo, fritzrth, word is bond

                  he should be fired because he has breached ethical standards and failed, as an officer of the government, to uphold his oath to protect and uphold to constitution and the laws of this country.  There is no doubt from reading those memos that they were written in an effort to 1) make it possible to subvert the law and 2) with criminal intent in mind.

                  It has nothing to do with ideology, and everything to do with ethics.

                  Besides, how can Boalt Hall expect Yoo's students to leave with a firm grasp of constitutional law, when their professor has made a career out of sidestepping the constitution, setting aside decades of precedent, and arguing the Fourth and Fifth Amendments are "suspended"?

              •  Yoo's conduct is a lesson in unethical behavior (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                varro, fritzrth, pasadena beggar

                While a lawyer should zealously represent his client, a lawyer who is giving prospective advice must be faithful to the actual language and intent of the law. It is not ethical to fabricate any fanciful justification for whatever a client wants to do.

                A lawyer must be prepared to tell his clients the legal limits of permissible behavior. Our entire system of reliance on legal advice rests on the willingness of the legal profession to be honest about this.

                I remember hearing a businessman tell his lawyer, "Dont tell me what I can't do, tell me what I can do." That's OK. But what Yoo did was different. His client said "Tell me I can do whatever I want to do" and Yoo acquiesced, although he could not possibly have believed, if he was at all competent, that his tortured rationalizations had any merit. That's cynical, irresponsible, unethical, and punishable.

                A lawyer who has fundamentally compromised the integrity of a lawyer's role should not be held up as a professor whom law students should respect.

                Democrats: Members of the Democratic Party working to advance democracy; Republicons: Members of the Republicanist Party working to advance Republicanism

                by word is bond on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:40:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, this is wrong. (17+ / 0-)

        I am an attorney.  No way in hell would I interpret "vigorous defense of client" as tailoring things to justify things that are fundamentally illegal.  It is the responsibility of counsel to advise his or her client whether or not they have a legal argument -- perhaps ways to finagle through procedural hocus pocus, but in the final analysis, if an action is illegal -- under U.S. law, both Constitutional and statutory -- and under International treaties -- to which we have signed and are assumed into the law of the land -- you can't contort your way out of it.  Personally, I think Yoo should be disbarred.

        My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

        by gchaucer2 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:10:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is NOT about academic freedom (4+ / 0-)

        I would support your position if this were merely an issue of expressing a right-wing viewpoint, or even a legal theory upon which reasonable people might differ.  

        But this is a separate matter.  The record is pretty clear - the Yoo memo(s) written while he was at the OSC were produced specifically at the behest of an Administration that needed to find legal justification for committing illegal acts.  And not just any illegal acts - John Yoo is directly responsible for crafting legal opinions that led to the commission of war crimes.  He did this knowingly, and he used legal theories that are so far outside the mainstream that they cannot stand the light of day.  They were promulgated behind the back of the Attorney General, in a climate of secrecy, and for immediate, instrumental ends - i.e. to provide justification for US torture policy, in contravention of the US Criminal Code and the Convention Against Torture, of which the US is a signator, and which has been ratified by the Senate.  

        What we have here is a very strong set of facts suggesting conspiracy to commit war crimes.  He's not convicted - yet - but there is ample cause for making that case.  

        Journalists need protection too, even the Rush Limbaughs of this world.  But the Rwandan Hutu journalists who abused their positions to report on the positions of Tutsis and to drive ethnic hate to levels of genocide, exceeded the protections normally extended to the 4th estate and were guilty of war crimes.  

        Similarly, John Yoo used his office to further a conspiracy to commit war crimes - albeit of a lesser nature than the Rwandan Genocide, but no less illegal under international and United States law. He needs to be charged, and given the climate of impunity in this country, people have every right to demand other actions including suspension from his position at Boalt Hall and disbarrment.

        God, who gave man scabies, also gave him hands to scratch them.

        by ivorybill on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:41:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yoo's job was not to tailor the law (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        varro, fritzrth, word is bond

        or defend anything, i.e., he was neither legislative author nor defense attorney, he was legal counsel.  His job was to either determine whether a particular policy would be legal or to find the interpretation that would deem it legal.  He created a legal justification out of thin air based on a jurisprudence alien to our Constitution.

        Give me ten lines from a good man and I'll find something in there to hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

        by lgrooney on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:47:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      fritzrth, word is bond

      the torture memo was no more than legal cover for criminal acts.

      If Yoo had been giving free-lance lectures about his 'beliefs' regarding torture and the Constitution, he would be within his 1st Amendment  rights...participating in a criminal conspiracy on behalf of the administration in an official capacity doesn't is an entirely different matter.

      The penalty that good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. - Plato

      by robroser on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:50:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  if YOO wants to teach finger painting its OK (6+ / 0-)

    BUT for him to teach constitutional LAW is beyond a complete JOKE unless his course in entitled how to circumvent the constitition and NOT GET SENT TO JAIL.

    it is not about his not having the right to teach.. its about demanding COMPETENCE from those given the task of educating America's future lawyers

    The CONSTITUTION is MY Flag pin

    by KnotIookin on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:01:12 PM PDT

    •  I am going to (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ExStr8, KnotIookin

      trust the intelligence of many Berkley law students.  If they don't challenge him, then of course, they are worried about their Supreme Court nomination 25 years into the future.  What would be more effective than firing him is to have enough students refuse to satisfy their Constitutional law requirement under someone who has disdain for the Constitution.

      My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:05:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Challenge him on what? (0+ / 0-)

        He doesn't teach Constitutional Law at Berkeley.

        •  Instead (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          fritzrth, ExStr8, dallasdave

          He's across the street at the frat houses teaching them on the latest torture hazing methods

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:13:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  My mistake -- I thought (0+ / 0-)

          I had read that he taught constitutional law.  What does he teach at Boalt?

          My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

          by gchaucer2 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:13:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not my mistake (8+ / 0-)

            220D sec. 1 - Constitutional Law & Development (course catalog)
            • 220S sec. 1 - Constitutional Law: Structural Issues (course catalog)

            Past courses

            • Fall 2008 - 220S sec. 1 - Constitutional Law: Structural Issues (course catalog)
            • Fall 2008 - 223.8 sec. 1 - California Constitutional Law (course catalog)
            • Fall 2008 - 226.2 sec. 1 - Foreign Relations Law (course catalog)
            • Fall 2007 - 208.5 sec. 1 - Introduction to US Law (course catalog)
            • Spring 2007 - 220.1 sec. 1 - Constitution in the Early Republic (course catalog)
            • Spring 2007 - 220.4 sec. 1 - Constitutional Law & Rational Choice Theory (course catalog)
            • Fall 2006 - 240.1 sec. 1 - International Civil Litigation (course catalog)
            • Fall 2005 - 220.7 - Advanced Constitutional Theory: Public Choice and Constitutional Design (course catalog)
            • Fall 2005 - 220S - Constitutional Law: Structural Issues (course catalog)
            • Spring 2005 - 256B - International Law Workshop (course catalog)
            • Fall 2004 - 208.5 - Introduction to United States Law (course catalog)
            • Fall 2004 - 263.5A - International Law Workshop (course catalog)
            • Spring 2004 - 220S - Constitutional Law - Structural Issues (course catalog)
            • Spring 2004 - 261 - International Law (course catalog)

            John Yoos courses

            My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

            by gchaucer2 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:17:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ah, what next? (0+ / 0-)

              Michael D. Brown in the Katrina Chair for emergency planning and response?

              Darleen Druyun in the Boeing Chair for Government Contracting Integrity and Ethics?

              Alphonso Jackson in the Katrina Chair for Equal Opportunity Housing (This in honor of his comment "New Orleans was 'not going to be as black as it was for a long time, if ever again.' His agency then championed a plan to reduce the number of public housing units in four complexes across the city from more than 5,000 before Katrina -- most of them occupied by African-American families -- to only 2,000."?

              From: Scandal-plagued HUD chief quits, but affordable housing crisis continues in the Gulf

              The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

              by pelagicray on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 03:48:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I have a feeling that most law students (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Shane Hensinger

        at Berkley as well as other places are more worried about getting their grades and passing the bar exam, than they are in challenging their teachers.

        It would be nice to think that a boycott of his classes would give the administration reason to rethink his staff position, but in my experience, administrations don't give a damn about student opinion and tend to side with the instructor in cases like this. "You either take the course under this professor, or you don't get your degree."

        noli, amabo, verberare lapidem ne perdas manum -- Plautus

        by fritzrth on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:57:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Geneva Conventions (8+ / 0-)

    A British attorney on Democracy Now and the author of the Vanity Fair article on torture suggested that the decision to ignore the Geneva Convention may be the subject of international courts.  Perhaps John Yoo will receive that tap on the shoulder when out of the country as did Pinochet.  You are reaching when you say that nothing should be done about this.

  •  He shouldn't be fired for the memo (12+ / 0-)

    He should be fired when he's convicted of conspiracy to commit war crimes.

    Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

    by drbloodaxe on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:03:58 PM PDT

  •  Freedom of speech is sacrosanct. (17+ / 0-)

    It is also not a defense for war crimes.

    Yoo did not write that memo as an academic exercise.  He did not write it as a matter of opinion without consequence.

    He wrote it as part of the federal government to enable war crimes.  His memo was intended to facilitate and justify those crimes. His memo was intended to provide legal cover for the guilty. And, as established at Nuremberg, he is as guilty as those who carried out the torture.

    That is why he does not belong at Berkeley.

    Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

    by landrew on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:05:24 PM PDT

    •  Nail on the head, landrew!!! Thank you! nt (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      eugene, landrew, drewfromct, spotDawa
    •  Free speech zones? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Shane Hensinger

      You're implying is that free speech is only allowed when it is "without consequence." That is pernicious totalitarian thought.

      Convict him of war crimes and you have a case. But Berkeley is not a court of law and if they were to fire him for (justifiably) unpopular political views without a conviction it would be a dark, dark day.

      •  Bullshit. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        landrew, ExStr8

        If the memo had explicitly ordered torture, would that also be protected free speech???

        •  In terms of tenure or law? (0+ / 0-)

          If he were convicted of a crime in a court of law for writing such a memo it would be just for them to fire him. If he were never convicted for such a crime, Berkeley would be firing him for holding unpopular politically charged opinions.

          I hope he's convicted of a crime and thrown to the curb. But Berkeley, his place of employment, should not be that judge, the ICC or the US judiciary should.

          What y'all are proposing is reverse McCarthyism.

          •  If that's what his contract says, ok (0+ / 0-)

            but the idea that private entities should never punish misdeeds that are not technically criminal is stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid.

            •  "Technically criminal" (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pd

              I think it's important to state here that Yoo has never been tried nor convicted of anything. If he were that would change my opinion but right now it's all conjecture and speculation. If he did break the law or abetted breaking the law then he'll one day face justice but until he does he's innocent until PROVEN guilty.

            •  The academcy needs to be different (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Shane Hensinger

              If Yoo were just a lawyer at some firm I'd not be so strident in defending him.

              Academic institutions need the tenure system to ensure that the product that they produce (knowledge) is as free from political influence as possible and that professors can conduct experimental and controversial work without fear of repercussion.

              Now, this occasionally lets a few bad apples do stupid shit, but the collective good that it provides far outweighs the few instances where people like Yoo slip though the cracks.

              Our universities would be much, much more conservative if the tenure system were significantly weakened. We'd also lose many of our best professors to the private sector.

      •  This is not a matter of free speech. (0+ / 0-)

        Yoo wrote this memo to justify torture as part of his job.  He did not write an op-ed - he gave the Bush admin permission to torture.  

        And the ironies here abound.  Yoo's opinion eviserates the Constitution and now you want to give him cover for those acts using the Constitution?

        As Jonathan Turley said last night on Keith's show, Yoo's memo created a "torture program".  Freedom of speech does not apply here, any more than it gives you the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, or the right to advocate violence against another.

        I just don't see how freedom of speech applies.

        Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

        by landrew on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:45:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Urm... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Shane Hensinger

          Yoo's opinion eviserates the Constitution and now you want to give him cover for those acts using the Constitution?

          This is the exact rhetoric that was used against American communists in the 40s.

          •  You are missing my point.... (0+ / 0-)

            Yoo did not write this "opinion" as John Q. Citizen.  He wrote this opinion as the Assistant Attorney General, Office of Legal Counsel.  

            These were a few of his job responsibilities:

            (a)Preparing the formal opinions of the Attorney General; rendering informal opinions and legal advice to the various agencies of the Government; and assisting the Attorney General in the performance of his functions as legal adviser to the President and as a member of, and legal adviser to, the Cabinet.

            (b) Preparing and making necessary revisions of proposed Executive orders and proclamations, and advising as to their form and legality prior to their transmission to the President; and performing like functions with respect to regulations and other similar matters which require the approval of the President or the Attorney General.

            (c) Rendering opinions to the Attorney General and to the heads of the various organizational units of the Department on questions of law arising in the administration of the Department.

            (d) Approving proposed orders of the Attorney General, and orders which require the approval of the Attorney General, as to form and legality and as to consistency and conformity with existing orders and memoranda.

            (e) Coordinating the work of the Department of Justice with respect to the participation of the United States in the United Nations and related international organizations and advising with respect to the legal aspects of treaties and other international agreements.

            And this....

            The Yoo memo effectively gave the Pentagon the green light to disregard statutory limits on torture, cruelty and maltreatment in the treatment of detainees. This is the version of the 2002 Torture memo, which was addressed only to the CIA and the torture statute, as applied to the numerous statutes restricting the conduct of the armed forces. None of those statues, you see, limits the conduct of war if the President says so. It is, in effect, the blueprint that led to Abu Ghraib and the other abuses within the armed forces in 2003 and early 2004.

            http://balkin.blogspot.com/...

            Freedom of speech has to be protected at all costs.  The Randi Rhodes suspension is a matter of freedom of speech.

            Yoo was not exercising his right to freedom of speech.  He was creating a torture program.  That act is not protected anywhere in law or in our Constitution.

            Any party that would lie to start a war would also steal an election.

            by landrew on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 02:10:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I was going to say that. n/t (0+ / 0-)

  •  We're not talking about his opinions (14+ / 0-)

    We're talking about his actions that fall under the umbrella of "crimes against humanity." There is a war criminal teaching in Boalt Hall.

    You speak of academic freedom. I'm an academic and also a UCB grad. I take this seriously. So let's look at what the most authoritative statement on the matter - the AAUP's 1940 Statement on Academic Freedom - says:

    1. Teachers are entitled to full freedom in research and in the publication of the results, subject to the adequate performance of their other academic duties; but research for pecuniary return should be based upon an understanding with the authorities of the institution.
    1. Teachers are entitled to freedom in the classroom in discussing their subject, but they should be careful not to introduce into their teaching controversial matter which has no relation to their subject.[2] Limitations of academic freedom because of religious or other aims of the institution should be clearly stated in writing at the time of the appointment.[3]
    1. College and university teachers are citizens, members of a learned profession, and officers of an educational institution. When they speak or write as citizens, they should be free from institutional censorship or discipline, but their special position in the community imposes special obligations. As scholars and educational officers, they should remember that the public may judge their profession and their institution by their utterances. Hence they should at all times be accurate, should exercise appropriate restraint, should show respect for the opinions of others, and should make every effort to indicate that they are not speaking for the institution.

    Nowhere does it say acting to subvert the US Constitution and helping commit war crimes is protected by academic freedom.

    In 1970 the AAUP added some "interpretive comments" that flesh this out (same link as above, just scroll further down):

    If the administration of a college or university feels that a teacher has not observed the admonitions of paragraph 3 of the section on Academic Freedom and believes that the extramural utterances of the teacher have been such as to raise grave doubts concerning the teacher’s fitness for his or her position, it may proceed to file charges under paragraph 4 of the section on Academic Tenure. In pressing such charges, the administration should remember that teachers are citizens and should be accorded the freedom of citizens. In such cases the administration must assume full responsibility, and the American Association of University Professors and the Association of American Colleges are free to make an investigation.

    Paragraph 3 of the section on Academic Freedom in the 1940 Statement should also be interpreted in keeping with the 1964 Committee A Statement on Extramural Utterances , which states inter alia: "The controlling principle is that a faculty member’s expression of opinion as a citizen cannot constitute grounds for dismissal unless it clearly demonstrates the faculty member’s unfitness for his or her position. Extramural utterances rarely bear upon the faculty member’s fitness for the position. Moreover, a final decision should take into account the faculty member’s entire record as a teacher and scholar."

    Again, John Yoo did not merely express his personal opinion when telling Bush he was not bound by the Constitution and could freely commit war crimes. But even it was just his opinion, this AAUP language would seem to suggest there are grounds for going after his job.

    I'm not saying it's a cut and dried case. And I'm not even saying we should go after his job - you may be right that this would give some cover to the odious Horowitz crowd. Personally I would prefer Yoo be hauled up on charges - either war crimes or treason seem good to me. But I do think that he is not entitled to the protection of "academic freedom" for what he did at the DOJ.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 01:09:39 PM PDT

  •  Are you saying (4+ / 0-)