My Friend Debbie

She posted the diary "I'm Rosebuddear's "Righty" Friend from Ohio in response to my February diary which was all about her

I just want to say that I think it was incredibly brave for her to come over here and post. The amount of anger that diary generated was not surprising to me, I have felt a lot of the same, along with you all. And I have reviled Debbie many and many a time for her Bush votes.

But I know that Debbie is a good person. She's my friend, and I hope will remain one. We have been online friends for 10 years now. She was there with me when my beloved kitty Pooky died, and when I lost my other beloved kitty Louis when he took an unexpected  ride in the neighbor's car, and got lost in another neighborhood in Minneapolis. And she was there when I scoured that neighborhood looking for him and when, miraculously, he was found by a person living in that neighborhood, she was there to share my joy.

She's been there for me throughout all the times that have been sad in my life and the ones that have been happy for the last 10 years. She knows about my beloved fiance Kevin, who is Canadian, and therefore shut off from me by immigration stuff (been trying to get him a visa for 4 years now - we may finally be getting it this year).

I, like you, have many times thought that present or former Bush supporters have tons of blood on their hands. But really, how many of us have any power over what goes on in government? God knows I have given her enough sh*t about that over the years.

The thing that prompted my February diary was a remark by Debbie that she might vote for McCain if Hillary won the nomination. I was as appalled as you are.....in a subsequent conversation Debbie said to me "you know what? I think I lied about that". And I understand that. If we as Progressives are going to talk to Conservatives, we need to relate, as friends, relatives, and fellow Americans.

As for the thing about Bush supporters having blood on their hands........no..........SHRUB has blood on his hands, gallons of it. But people who thought they were doing the right thing at the time by voting the way they did, well......no. I can't go there. And Debbie has suffered plenty for her vote. I don't want to go into details, but she has paid and paid for that. So I hope you'll welcome her to Daily Kos. We need her and all the people like her.

Hope to see all the Minnesota Kossacks at the Meetup at my place on April 13. I am looking forward to meeting you all.

Oh and Debbie, you didn't need to change the diary name you posted - I thought it was fine just as it was.

Rose

•  Any friend

  of Rosebuddear's is a friend of mine.  :)

  Debbie isn't the only one who voted for Bush, and believe it or not there are some who would do it again.

  by nupstateny on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:24:36 AM PDT

  •  Yeah I know :)

    hopefully not so many any more. Thanks nupstateny

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:26:20 AM PDT

•  Can you link

  her diary?  I am interested in the responses she got.  I have been training a women, 43, 2 kids, to teach my classes.  She is competent and is jumping right in.  She has a degree and teaches little ones at her church.  So far, so good. The first problem came when she denied that there is global warming.  Then she told me she is a lapsed Catholic and argued with me on the validity of my faith.  To her the economy is fine, having a little burp.  omg.  I was wondering how I would be able to get along with her let alone train her.  I am not even thinking someone like her should be anywhere near children but that may just be me.  So far I have desperately tried to find some common ground and we have talked at length about that, agreeing and cementing some solid foundations.  Then when we talk something divisive, I have emphatically but nicely staked my ground and she throws back her objections but we are conversational instead of mean.  It is quite a test as I am appalled at her views.  I am thinking of it as a project.  How many times can I get her to admit one of my points is valid or correct?  How many times can I plant the seed of doubt into her ideas?

  by tobendaro on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:34:16 AM PDT

  •  Sure

    here's the diary link

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:40:09 AM PDT

    •  I took a look...

      at your friend Debbie's diary & some of her comments & I've got to say that one of her comments about the women's rights movement seemed like a caricature and a cliche unappreciative of the complexities of the times.  She's got lot's of strong opinions - she's come to the same understandng of the Clintons that many of us share.

      
      
      ````
      peace
      
      

      by peace voter on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:54:04 AM PDT

      •  I've never quite understood

        Her attitude towards the women's rights movement either. She is fiercely in love with her husband, who is a great guy, somehow I think she sees that as being against him, somehow. As so many people do who don't like it. And if she comes in here again, she will probably hand my butt to me for this comment. :):):)

        by Rosebuddear on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:01:14 AM PDT

  •  One step at a time. I have a good friend

    who is republican.  We agree so much on so many things. But she has some values that we disagree on.  But in discussion of our same values, I have been able to change her view of war. Not coming at it by a politics view but a moral view. And if she would just admit it, she is more liberal than she thinks. But some people hold on to beliefs long after they have served any purpose.

    by Owllwoman on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:42:44 AM PDT

    •  Habit

      and self image.  In my mind's eye, I'm a brunette.  Everyone around me knows different, but I'm not ready to admit it yet.

      by marykk on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:21:29 AM PDT

•  I hope Debbie feels she can continue posting

  She seemed sturdy enough to have weathered the storm of unfriendly comments her diary inspired. I liked her pluckiness. And hell, she's honest enough to admit her mistakes and is now talking some sense.

  by bumblebums on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:39:05 AM PDT

  •  yeah thats what I think also

    thx for commenting

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 04:40:56 AM PDT

  •  Admit her mistakes?

    One of the reasons she got so much grief was that she did NOT admit her mistakes. In fact, she tried to justify them with some of the most weak-minded pablum I have ever heard from a Bush voter. Basically, she f*cked up - twice - and now she's not happy that it makes her look so stupid.

    Hey, I'm glad she's just barely smart enough to not vote for Bush a 3rd time, but that's about as far as I can go in praising her because that IS about as far as she's willing to go with taking responsibility for past actions and with working to effect change for the future.

    Not that what I think matters here. As I commented at her first post, she sure doesn't owe me an explanation for her vote.

    by Jeff Boatright on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:23:35 AM PDT

    •  Too sarcastic

      I apologize for the extreme sarcasm ("barely smart enough").

      by Jeff Boatright on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:12:34 AM PDT

•  The first step is the admission of mistakes

  Don't feel comfortable criticising Debbie, whose diary isn't here, but this point covers all the Bush supporters;

  Recognize the policies were wrong.

  Sure Debbie is a nice person.  I love my Republican relatives too. There just isn't any way around explaining to them that the collapsing economy, which they are feeling, entitles them to the same level of public sympathy they extended to the residents of New Orleans.

  by MadCityRag on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:45:08 AM PDT

  •  I and Debbie were both horrified

    by what happened to New Orleans. In fact, that's the day she called me and said "ok you were right. bush is an a-hole".

    I know it doesn't make anything any better, but it does in my eyes.

    It's been three years now. Where does the time go?

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:15:29 AM PDT

•  One thing that I've learned

  is that it is possible to keep friendships, and yes, even family relationships :) with people who do not agree with you politically.  

  I'm the only Democrat in my entire extended family.  I love them dearly, despite frequently wondering how they can see the world so entirely differently than I do.  We agree to disagree, and we try to avoid talking about politics for the most part.

  I have other friends who voted for Bush.  Working where I do, most people tend to be liberals, but it's not uncommon for my kids to go to school with kids from military families (like my brother's) and for me to become friendly with their parents, who are often Republicans.  Perhaps because I've had practice aplenty with my relatives, I can appreciate their good qualities, and the things in them that make them real friends, while not entirely understanding how they see the world, or what would make them choose that political ideology.

  Sure, there are other people who are just hateful or unkind, or bigoted, or so reactionary that I could not see myself ever being friendly wtih them.  But sometimes it's just not the case at all.  I wouldn't dream of telling many of those people they have "blood on their hands" because they voted for Bush.  It presumes I understand entirely how they base their decisions, the life experiences that brought them to that way of seeing the world, and I think that's unfair.  I also think it's incredibly unproductive in trying to change someone's mind or help them gently to see the world differently.  Nudging works far better than bludgeoning in my experience.  

  So welcome to Debbie.  I'm sorry that her first diary here was a bit rocky.  I hope she'll stay and talk with us, because we can probably all learn things from each other.

  And hugs to her for helping you get your kitty back Rosebuddear!

  by American in Kathmandu on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 05:50:09 AM PDT

•  I read Debbie's diary and her reasons for

  voting for Bush twice were pretty lame, but she was brave to discuss it here and I believe you when you say she's a wonderful friend. I hope your friendship stays strong and she learns more about how to choose presidents. Heh.

  by flumptytail on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:01:06 AM PDT

•  I have friends and family

  who are tepid Republicans, nothing fanatical, and we have lots in common.  I've been able to convince my niece that voting Democratic is the way to go.  Well, actually, the economy is what convinced her.  When she and her family were directly affected, she realized that Democrats made a lot of sense.  My very best friends are the ones I can talk (Democratic) politics with, but I enjoy my Republican friends, too.  And who knows - maybe I can change their minds.  I did it once.

  by myrealname on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:08:09 AM PDT

•  I read the diary and was disappointed

  by a lot of the comments.  I too felt it was brave of her to speak out.  

  We need all the Debbies we can get!  I'm glad she's with us now.

  by Pandoras Box on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:26:29 AM PDT

  •  Great diary and great comments

    Thanks for a great diary. Your diary and the comments I've read above show maturity and a refusal to rush to judgment that is important in a democratic culture that is tolerant and accepting of differences of ideas and viewpoints.

    I see it as standing in contrast of the Bush slogan that you are with us wholly or against us.. I see it also aligned with Obama's ideas of disagreeing without being disagreeable.

    Moreover, this approach is the way to understand the viewpoints and ideas of people we disagree with, that allows us to reach out to them and bring them into the bigger coalition we need to build to deliver on the many big changes and programs we need to launch, without which we cannot face the many challenges that face us both nationally and globally.

    by SpringFever on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 06:50:54 AM PDT

    •  SpringFever thanks

      It's your comments and the recommenders of this diary that give me the energy to continue posting.

      I agree - with us or against us? pfeh. We're all in the same boat together. And it's sinking. And I think my friend recognizes that.

      by Rosebuddear on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:07:53 AM PDT

•  What is the Obama campaign slogan?

  Respect, empower, include???

  It seems some of the commenters on Debby's diary haven't worked on the Obama campaign yet. I was appalled at their rudeness, and their ignorance of Obama's very good advice.

  by ybruti on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:06:08 AM PDT

  •  Well, I guess that hasn't taken

    Thx for the comment. I agree re Obama and his very fine advice. We could all do with a bit of that.

    And haven't you loved how Hannity, et al, have SLAMMED him for being level and balanced? Called him "cold" and "above it all" etc. He's not "cold" he's levelheaded. But those guys will have a ton of stuff like this before election day. Better be ready for it, all of us.

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 09:28:17 AM PDT