Daily Kos

Rule of Law

Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:30:31 AM PDT

A few weeks ago, the NYT reported on the growing number of defense attorneys representing terrorism-related defendants concerned about their communications with their clients being intercepted. Now, more than 20 lawyers for Guantanamo inmates have officially accused the government of eavesdropping on what should be their privileged communications with clients.

In interviews and a court filing Tuesday, lawyers for detainees at Guantánamo said they believed government agents had monitored their conversations. The assertions are the most specific to date by Guantánamo lawyers that officials may be violating legal principles that have generally kept government agents from eavesdropping on lawyers.

"I think they are listening to my telephone calls all the time," said John A. Chandler, a prominent lawyer in Atlanta and Army veteran who represents six Guantánamo detainees.

Several of the lawyers, including partners at large corporate law firms, said the concerns had changed the way they went about their work apart from Guantánamo cases. A lawyer in Chicago, H. Candace Gorman, said in an affidavit that she was no longer accepting new clients of any type because she could not assure them of confidentiality.

The new filing, by the Center for Constitutional Rights, came in a 2007 lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act in which Guantánamo lawyers are seeking records to determine whether they have been targets of surveillance.

The CCR has more in this release:

New York – Last night, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and co-counsel filed an opposition brief in Wilner v. NSA, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit on behalf of 24 attorneys who represent detainees at Guantánamo – including CCR staff attorneys Gitanjali Gutierrez and Wells Dixon, as well as law professors and partners at prominent international law firms. These attorneys believe they may have been targeted by the government’s warrantless wiretapping program that began shortly after September 11, 2001 because of their representation of Guantánamo prisoners labeled "enemy combatants" by the government. They seek access to records showing whether the government has intercepted communications relating to their representation of these clients.

"The existence of the spying program inhibits our ability to do our work," said CCR attorney Gitanjali Gutierrez, a plaintiff in the case. "We sometimes have to warn clients and potential witnesses that their communications with us may be monitored by the government. The NSA program prevents us from assuring them of confidentiality, making clients and witnesses less likely to want to participate in any cases against the government."

Although CCR argues that any warrantless surveillance of the plaintiffs would be illegal, not only have the National Security Agency (NSA) and the Department of Justice (DOJ) refused to turn over the relevant records, they have refused to confirm or deny whether the plaintiffs were in fact subject to surveillance under the program. The newly-filed brief argues that the government must provide the records if they exist because the FOIA statute cannot be used to hide illegal activities....

"One of the striking things about this program is that it means opposing counsel – particularly the DOJ – may be listening in on our litigation strategy," said Shayana Kadidal, Managing Attorney for CCR’s Guantánamo Project and counsel in this case. "The uncertainty created by the existence of the NSA program makes it far more difficult for lawyers to challenge in court all the other illegal behavior of this administration in the course of the so-called War on Terror. Today’s filing is an attempt to determine whether all the warning signs of government surveillance are real or just false alarms."

This is as important a case as the 40 that are pending against the telcos which participated in the illegal wiretappiing program, so of course that means the government will undoubtely fight to shut it down. But beyond what it might potentially tell us about the program, it points to the chilling effect it has had on such a basic tenet of law as a lawyers ability to provide an adequate defense for a client.  

The breakdown of the rule of law doesn't extend just to the lawbreaking by this administration--the administration is fundamentally opposed to and intent upon dismantling our system of justice when it might infringe in any way upon the administration's conduct. This is the very basic and fundamental issue from which all of the abuses of this adminstration flow--the essential lawlessness of the Bush/Cheney cabal.

And it's the larger issue that is at stake in what has become a rather narrow fight over telco amnesty. Because the Bush assault on the rule of law isn't just against our justice system. It goes the very foundation of our nation upon the rule of law, our Constitution and how the branches of government function within it. There are some very fundamental issues at stake in this, even as this administration's days are numbered. It's what the fight to prevent Congress from immunizing the telcos--and by extension, the administration--represents.

That so many in Congress could be so willing to be a part of this dismantling--so complicit in the neutering of their own ability to govern co-equally is astounding.

  • ::

Tags: FISA, Guantanamo, rule of law, Center for Constitutional Rights, telco amnesty (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 89 comments

  •  Seriously (11+ / 0-)

    What the fuck happened to this country?

    http://www.wrapupafrica.com A skirt. A skill. A life saved.

    by librarianman on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:34:28 AM PDT

  •  There is no Constitutional Protection in Cuba (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    glitterscale, m8rix69, mcmom, ezdidit

    Much like here under W....

    The Seminole Democrat
    A blue voice calling from the deep red

    by SemDem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:39:02 AM PDT

  •  This whole issue is terrifying (10+ / 0-)

    and I can't help but believe that there is incriminating complicit behavior on the part of some high ranking Democrats, which has compromised their willingness to aggressive oversight.

    You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

    by zerone on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:39:38 AM PDT

  •  Supreme Court (15+ / 0-)

    We are entering an era where the courts are going to be in the spotlight. They will have a lot more to decide than abortion rights.

    Shall we elect a Democrat to the White House this year? Would 60 Democratic Senators be helpful? I mean, since they will be appointing and confirming our judges.

  •  Those willing to trade freedom for security.... (10+ / 0-)

    deserve neither... Ben Franklin

    Be so afraid to sacrifice all freedoms and the rule of law to the terrorists..... George W. Bush

    Great men aren't afraid.  How sad W's legacy will be...

    The Seminole Democrat
    A blue voice calling from the deep red

    by SemDem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:41:35 AM PDT

    •  See, that suggests that he thinks (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Spoc42, m8rix69

      the purpose of the law is to rule the people.  That the people rule is inconceivable to him.  Justice Kennedy has tried to set them right.  It's why the Administration takes so few matters to the Court.  They've been turned back over and over.  And now McCain is resurrecting the old mantra about the over-weaning judiciary.  The conservative concept is that the government is set up to rule the population and that the courts are supposed to back them up and punish the failure to comply with directives.

      That the rules are different for the agents of government and for the people hasn't really registered.  That the law tells the agents of government what to do and tells the people what not to do is a simple but significant difference, which hasn't been emphasized often enough.

      law is permissive = applies to government

      law is prohibitive = applies to persons (individual and corporate.

      Of course, the suborning of the telecoms suggests that the agents of government knew full well that they were acquiring information they hadn't been permitted to have.  

      How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

      by hannah on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:16:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good point. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        m8rix69

        The Constitution's Bill of Rights restricts the rights of the government to impede on individual rights. It's a basic concept but one that the court's conservatives do not understand.

        Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Out of hope, out of rope, out of time

        by professorfate on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:41:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Would admin want CUI on this ??? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    m8rix69, Reepicheep, ezdidit

    I'm still hoping someone will explain to me about the new Controlled Unclassified Information memo.
    http://www.dailykos.com/...
    Seems like CUI could help the gov keep silent. Especially since this is clearly terrorism-related info.

    PHIL :)

  •  wow (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    m8rix69, ezdidit, TerribleTom

    Bushco is ilegally spying on a group of proffesional attorney's

    I am sort of glad this happened!

    Nice piece, McJoan

    I baaaa for Obama

    by Krush on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:42:48 AM PDT

  •  For the life of me (10+ / 0-)

    I don't understand how Bu$hCo continues to get away with its disengenous framing of the Telco Immunity garbage.

    It isn't about a few bucks potential liability to AT&T, it's a naked attempt to keep anything whatsoever about surveillance from reaching the Courts.

    Thanks a lot, Sen. Rockefeller, et al. Sigh.

  •  These attorneys need ZRTP (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    m8rix69, ezdidit, SciVo

    I use this to encrypt my VoIP calls. It's in FREE from Phil Zimmermann in early release, the guy who invented PGP (pretty good privacy) for files.

    NSA can't break it.

    And yes, the fact that we need to resort to this is shameful comment on our lack of democracy.

  •  Political shift. (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    m8rix69, ezdidit, SciVo, Dragon5616, LookingUp

    If this can be proven, it might push a political shift.
    I was used to scientists and engineers being more Republican than Democratic. Then, the right declared war against science.
    Now, they've declared war against the legal profession. I predict that Republican lwyers will feel mighty lonely in about a year.

    "I'm not opposed to all wars; I'm opposed to dumb wars." -- Obama in 2002

    by Frank Palmer on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:47:53 AM PDT

  •  Hamas (7+ / 0-)

    The scary part is they actually do think were associated with Hamas. McCain has even taken up this line (and it needs to be thrown in his face). When our leaders actually have the audacity to equate us with terrorist you know they will stop at nothing when it comes to domestic spying.

    It's funny. A while back Bush/Cheney said they "were interested in your aunt Sally" when they "accidentally" pick up your private information in data sweeps, but in reality that statement couldn't be further from the truth. They are very much interested in "my aunt Sally", especially if she is on life support. The Republican brand stands for complete invasion of privacy and the blanket accusation that a super majority of Americans are terrorists.

    They really do consider us a threat to national security. And they really do hate our privacy. And they will stop at nothing to take control of our lives. And damnit Obama better be talking about this "Hamas" bullshit every step of the way.

    RIP USA, July 9, 2008

    by plok on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:48:39 AM PDT

  •  We went to the National Archives... (9+ / 0-)

    ...a few years ago, and we looked at the documents under glass.
    My Russian-born wife asked me, "Do those documents bring up any patriotic feelings for you?"

    My response: "They used to..."

    I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

    by willie horton on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:49:57 AM PDT

    •  I read the original UN charter recently. (5+ / 0-)

      And it broke my heart.

      "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

      by Reepicheep on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:56:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's barely a law they HAVEN'T broken (0+ / 0-)

        Just looking at the Bill of Rights is enough to bring tears to one's eyes.
        First Amendment? Rendered irrelevant by ignoring what little truth the press does reveal. (And don't get me started about showing way too much respect for establishment[s] of religion...)
        Second Amendment? "The right of the people to keep and bear arms" has become a privilege enjoyed only by the relatively wealthy. (It cost me several hundred dollars to secure that privilege, subject to various restrictions, in about 20 states, and it expires every few years).
        Fourth Amendment? "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." unless you're associated with people the government doesn't like.

        I'm not a Democrat, I'm a liberal. Democrats go to meetings.

        by willie horton on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:15:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Glurg. I have outrage exhaustion. (9+ / 0-)

    I feel like they do it on purpose -- committing as many offenses as possible, on as many different fronts as possible, so that We the People just can't keep up with it all.

    I also believe we must impeach Antonin Scalia for protection from his inhumanity.

    by SciVo on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:50:00 AM PDT

  •  amaaaaa-zing grace... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    skrekk, Dragon5616

    I'd love to see your rough diary drafts of these, uh... ...indictments.  I do not know how you can say all that without a single expletive.

    What might arise to replace this form of government of ours without a challenge to these lawless tactics?

    The specter of rich, powerful attorneys forced to battle illegitimate claims of "National Security" is very strange indeed. Unfortunately, the administration's fear-mongering has done its work all too perfectly. With this unsettling imagery, it's kind of amazing to me that a Congressman would even consider not voting for impeachment.  

    Then there's Whitehouse:

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:51:14 AM PDT

  •  Threat of Terrorism Subverts Justice (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Spoc42, m8rix69, ezdidit

    This Administration in Criminal and should have been impeached so the American people could prosecute them for war crimes without Executive Immunity.

    There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour. Fredrick Douglas

    by angry liberaltarian on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:55:52 AM PDT

  •  CCR is fighting the good fight. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    m8rix69, Krush, Dragon5616

    I really admire them.  If you've got any spare change, send them some love!

    "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

    by Reepicheep on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:57:52 AM PDT

  •  It seems to me that a core issue is (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    barbwires, side pocket, Krush, LookingUp

    the failure on the part of the Bush/Cheney Administration to recognize that the purpose of the rule of law is to regulate and limit THEIR behavior as agents of government.  They seem to be under the mistaken impression that the rule of law simply means that they rule according to statute, as opposed to whim.
    If the drafting of statutes and their adoption were merely a formality, then it is reasonable to argue that this formality might be by-passed.  But, since the statutes are limiting and prescriptive of government action and nothing that's not been permitted can be carried out, it's clear that the Administration has engaged in unlawful, if not illegal or criminal behavior.

    Or one could say that they do not understand that the law makes them less powerful, not more.

    How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

    by hannah on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:01:18 AM PDT

  •  Get out the vote...payback isw a bitch! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    m8rix69

    If you do not have a voter registration form to give your neighbor, now you can get one!

    Join Obama's 50-State Voter registration drive!

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:02:56 AM PDT

  •  Damn you Nader!!! (0+ / 0-)

    Will that man stop at NOTHING to prove his egotistical point???

    What more can be done? After all, the middle-class champion was dutifully thrown under the bus, smeared with lies and scapegoated for the Dem Party by all us "progressives," the ground where his stinking anti-corporatism stood has been salted and his supporters dispersed and alienated and yet STILL his unhappy accusations keep being shown true. The man is pure evil, obviously.

    And careful now, McJoan, you have begun sounding like a Naderite lately, when you were so good at being so willfully ignorant for so long. The troll-hunters are watching you. The truth can and WILL be tamped down if we can all just keep b e l i e v i n g! This is the new Faith-based Progressive movement, don't you know, faithful to the One True Political Party that was so unfairly shut out in 2000 and has just floundered wanting to be good but just a little out of touch, or rather, inept, or, clueless, or, disorganized ... or well just shut up that's why.

    The Dems just need a little more time and your money and some more power and then ... oh boy just wait until THEN!

    It's a Right-wing, conservative, Republican war.

    by J Royce on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:03:26 AM PDT

  •  We have the best justice that money can buy (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dragon5616

    As with our healthcare, we have the best justice that money can buy.

    If you, like me, have a couple of bucks, then life is good.  Healthcare is great, justice is great.

    If you are poor, then tough shit azzholes.

    I deplore this, but I must depict reality.

    May God Bless our troops wherever they are. Best regards, El Tomaso

    by El Tomaso on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:08:55 AM PDT

  •  This is good - client suing lawyers for not (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    m8rix69, Dragon5616

    ensuring confidentiality.  This will create a tsunami of exposure into the illegal actions of the gov't and telcos.  

  •  justice deferred is justice denied! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Krush

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:15:32 AM PDT

  •  All justified again by (0+ / 0-)

    the grand attacks on my city.

    The Daily Outrage: It's like being a punk rocker, but without the optimism.

    by eroded47095 on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:17:10 AM PDT

  •  They're spying on Barack too (0+ / 0-)

    And using it to help that slackjawed McCain win another round of tyranny.

    BET.

    The Daily Outrage: It's like being a punk rocker, but without the optimism.

    by eroded47095 on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:19:34 AM PDT

  •  Is this still on? (0+ / 0-)

    Seattle Kossack (not a) Meetup
    2nd Saturday
    7:00 pm - 9:00 pm
    Location: Pike Brewery
    Street: 1415 1st Avenue
    City State Zip: Seattle, WA 98115

    MY PAGE

    </war> Darcy Burner for Congress WA-08

    by mrobinson on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:30:08 AM PDT

  •  The Scolia and Thomas factor (0+ / 0-)

    Don't expect much from this Supreme Court as long as those right wing strict Constitutionalists (synonym for ignore any part of the Constitution that doesn't fit right wing philosophy) have a majority. Remember his interview about torture. It isn't cruel and unusual punishment because torture isn't punishment. Any brain that can make that kind of perverted distinction will certainly find that the attorney client privilege doesn't violate the privilege concept because the clients must first have rights and since he and his cronies have denied those rights, they don't have the privilege because they don't have rights.  

    Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Out of hope, out of rope, out of time

    by professorfate on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:37:22 AM PDT

    •  You know, this acually isn't so far-fetched, (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      barbwires, Spoc42, m8rix69

      except that they already granted them the right to an attorney, which means that all subservient rights are granted as well.

      Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

      by Dauphin on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:39:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Correct (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        m8rix69, Dauphin

        If they will actually see that. I expect that the lower courts will, but if it gets to the Supreme Court, I wouldn't trust that they will uphold it, besides it was a sarcastic remark.

        Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Out of hope, out of rope, out of time

        by professorfate on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:45:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's kind of sad that reality (0+ / 0-)

          and sarcasm have begun to mix to this degree, isn't it?

          And don't get me started on the European Court's last, terrible decision.

          Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

          by Dauphin on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:46:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I missed that one (0+ / 0-)

            What was it?
            By the by, listening to Scolia wasn't real; it was surreal.

            Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Out of hope, out of rope, out of time

            by professorfate on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:48:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

              they ruled that companies which operate in EU countries other than their country of origin can make collective contracts (hire workers) based on the law of their country of origin. To give an example, shipping companies operating in Finland were allowed to hire Latvian employees to work there based on Latvian law, for half the pay that that Finnish law demands, and in that way broke the Finnish dockworkers' strike, which the court ruled was based on illegal grounds due to the free traffic of services within the EU.

              Based on that ruling, I can found a company in Romania and use the shitty employee law they have there in any other European country. Nice, isn't it? Blech...

              Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

              by Dauphin on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:53:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Dauphin

                It sounds like New Orleans after Katrina. The Southern Poverty Law Center has been battling that since the storm. They're having some success. What a World!

                Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Out of hope, out of rope, out of time

                by professorfate on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:01:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You know, I'm so tired of (0+ / 0-)

                  all this. More and more often I narrow my wishes down to graduating, being with the woman I love, getting a nice job somewhere remote, and ignoring the world and its woes... how can we change it? Where do we begin? How can we fight the interests massed against us?

                  Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

                  by Dauphin on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:04:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  Confidential Communicatons (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Spoc42

    between lawyers and their clients is so unAmerican (at least in this America). It's time has long since passed since around, oh, Oct. 2001. That "innocent before proven guilty" is a dud,  too.

    "The Use of Unnecessary Violence Has Been Approved." Keith Olbermann

    by CityLightsLover on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:37:36 AM PDT

  •  Next they will argue about AND (0+ / 0-)

    Cruel AND unusual? Did the Framers mean both or just one? Cruel and, cruel or?
    MY PAGE

    </war> Darcy Burner for Congress WA-08

    by mrobinson on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:50:17 AM PDT

  •  I love the Constitution too (0+ / 0-)

    Obama: "I love the Constitution."

    That is what gives me hope for the next administration.

    </war> Darcy Burner for Congress WA-08

    by mrobinson on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:52:46 AM PDT

  •  It's not a "Program." (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eroded47095

    It's a "Conspiracy."

    "I am proud to stand with Senator Dodd, Senator Feingold and a grass-roots movement of Americans." Barack Obama, lying about FISA

    by Egypt Steve on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:53:12 AM PDT

  •  I'd be willing to bet the Bush administration's.. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dauphin

    position will be that these detainees have no right to private communications with their attorneys. They don't even think they have a right to attorneys.

    The Bush administration's position has always been along the lines of, "These are detainees, enemy combatants, etc, they are not criminal defendants in criminal cases. Therefore they do not have any of the rights of defendants in a criminal case. Moreover, they don't even have the protections normally afforded them by the Geneva Convention because they aren't being detained as enemy soldiers fighting for an enemy army, they are being detained as terrorists who gave up all Geneva Convention protections. As a result, they do not have a right to a trial by jury within the legal system, they don't even have a right to trial by military tribunal unless the courts force the issue. So what, exactly, would give them the right to an attorney, or private communications with an attorney?"

    Yes, the Bush administration painted a very consistent picture that, so long as the people (and the occasional court) believe, allows the Bush administration to do whatever they want.

    Impeachment is the only option. And Pelosi et al. must be held accountable for taking it off the table.

    ~Doc~

    -7.88 -8,77 Just a wine sipping, brie eating, $6 coffee drinking, Prius driving, over educated, liberal, white, activist, male New Englander for Barack Obama.

    by EquationDoc on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:56:43 AM PDT

    •  And how will we punish them? (0+ / 0-)

      The only way to truly punish them would be not to vote for them, but that means handing their seats over to Republicans, which is even worse.

      Or, alternatively, a right bastard could, due to their complicity in war crimes, start proceedings against them in front of the ICC.

      But I'm not getting my hopes up. When the world court in 2004 unanimously ruled that the Israeli Separation Wall was illegal under international law, with the US judge writing a separate concurring opinion, both Republicans and Democrats soundly condemned the ruling. One of the leaders of that travesty? John Kerry.

      Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

      by Dauphin on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:01:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Complicit (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Cambridgemac, Dauphin, carver

        That word comes to mind when I think about both this administration and this Congress. I have been exceedingly disappointed with many Democrats and proud of only a few. My hope is that, if elected, Obama will reacquaint the American public with the Constitution and require Congress to take a class on it and then pass an exam before they can vote.

        Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Out of hope, out of rope, out of time

        by professorfate on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:25:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wish I could trust Obama, (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Cambridgemac

          but even if I assume I can, nothing much changes. There's still Congress that needs to form a coherent social programme and vote on it. The President is not a king, despite the best efforts of the Bush Administration and the Republicans, having limited power.

          Omne malum nascens facile opprimitur, inveteratum fit plerumque robustius. - Cicero

          by Dauphin on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:30:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Will he relinquish (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Dauphin

            the powers that Bush and Cheney (and too many others before them) have usurped or will he start another round of presidential usurpation? With Bush and Cheney as the caretakers of room 101, 1984 is  closer than it has ever been. I wonder too if Obama will shut it down. The trend to increase presidential powers has not stopped and it began long before Bush and Cheney. I fear that the checks and balances are failing more now than ever before. Maybe Colonel Lewis Nicola (He requested Washington to assume the role of King.) will get his wish and we'll have coronations instead of inaugurations. Maybe it's too late to stop the evil. I will hate to see my daughter living in a country that had so much promise but then allowed power and greed destroy it.

            Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Out of hope, out of rope, out of time

            by professorfate on Sat May 10, 2008 at 11:11:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The issue isn't monarchy (0+ / 0-)

              Even kings must follow the rule of law.

              It's much more serious than that.  The President's words and memos are law, until he changes them.  That's the way the US runs.  

              We have SECRET laws that even Congress isn't "allowed" to see, SECRET courts, SECRET TRIALS, secret verdicts that only a few are allowed to know about.  As of 2005, over 5,000 Americans had been tried in SECRET trials that you and I can find out nothing about.  Not even the name of the accused.

              This rivals the USSR at its most perverse. It's fascism.  You tell me: how can you obey the law when the law is a secret?

  •  Domestic surveillance disclosures (0+ / 0-)

    This Monday, in Washington, D.C., an international assembly of whistleblowers will feature whistleblowers speaking about new and previous disclosures on a variety of topics, including domestic surveillance.

  •  and justice shall roll (0+ / 0-)

    I will personally help fund the special prosecutors needed to investigate, indict and convict these Constitution thieves.

  •  Lately I seem to be putting on my... (0+ / 0-)

    ...tinfoil hat more and more.
    The inaction by the Democratic majority over what are, arguably, the most blatant violations of law and the Constitution by a President in the nation's history is stupefying. Particularly egregious, is the compliance of so many in Congress with the subversion of the underlying right of the people, their own included, embodied in the Bill of Rights.

    The government will not intrude in the private doings of the people without just cause, as determined by a court of law.

    My, tinfoil hat, speculation is that the warrantless surveillance (which actually began prior to 9/11) revealed sufficient, career ending, dirt on a large crowd of legislators, of both R and D flavor, that they shy away from anything to do with the criminality that's rampant in the WH.

    "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy.".... Benjamin Disraeli -8.25 / -5.64

    by carver on Sat May 10, 2008 at 11:33:15 AM PDT

  •  Rule of Law (0+ / 0-)

    Some time ago, I was sitting next to several Africans at a international lawyers meeting.  I had intentionally sought them out because they were speaking by themselves in a part of the reception area, and wanted to talk with them about what was happening in their countries.  

    In little time, they were unanimous in their concerns about the way the US had treated the rule of law.  In their minds, the US was the leader in this essential part of freedom, and they and their countries had lost a lot of ground when Bush began his opposition to previously considered fundamental defendant rights.

    Of all those rights, the right to counsel is one of the most significant.  For years, Bush opposed providing certain classifications of prisoners the right to any counsel.  One part of this right is the right to consult freely with one's attorneys.

    Many other rights essential to freedom have been curtailed or eliminated during the Bush years.  Included are the right to access courts, the right to fair and impartial tribunals, and the right to evidence available to the prosecution, and the right to confront those testifying against the defendant.

    The rule of law has taken this beating in part through always extant arguments that to do otherwise will create risk of future damage to investigations and other actions being undertaken by the Bush Administration.  And these arguments have been accepted by the Supreme Court with some frequency in wartime.

    An interesting aspect of the rule of law is that it is by definition largely a claim of right by those in power to being able to change rights granted to our citizens and others.  And it is therefore a power of the Executive whenever considered.  In other words, any law-abiding president and Congress will not trespass on such rights and therefore will comply with the Constitution.  Only those seeking to exercise such power will find approval in their right to do so, and therefore will only act this way when elected.

    One way to avoid such problems is to ensure compliance with appropriate international treaties.  But this works only at the federal level.  

    The US Supreme Court's recent finding in connection with the death penalty that our states are like separate countries requiring their own ratification of treaties is as absurd a finding as one could imagine.  Under this doctrine, could states actually deny constitutional rights by claiming that the danger to the country was great, thereby potentially thwarting Executive perogative?  Can states become preeminent whenever they choose on the international scene?  If so, when and how?

    There are many dangers in this recent decision.  Few have been adequately analyzed.  We should do so as quickly as possible.  For this decision is likely to prove an impediment to the rule of law in ways that we cannot currently imagine.

  •  So glad that (0+ / 0-)

    these lawyers are sticking up for themselves and their clients. Brave people on the front lines fighting this battle for the rest of us.

    I mean to follow this story. Please update us on this!

    Thanks.

  •  Thank you for expanding the argument (0+ / 0-)

    against immunity for telecoms. Your diary presents the larger picture, the loss of constitutional protection for all citizens.

    "This is not our America and we need to take it back." John Edwards.

    by mcmom on Sat May 10, 2008 at 11:57:13 AM PDT

  •  Bushco doesn't need law, (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cambridgemac

    silly peasants and congress people!

    1. To good corporatists, the law is something to get around in the fundamental quest for profit.
    1. To good fascists, the law is something to get around in quest of political power in service of 1.
    1. If there are any questions about 1 and 2, they're on a mission from God.  Stop being so intolerant, librul elitists.

    Corporate Values + governance = fascism

  •  we gave up the rule of law long before Gitmo (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cambridgemac

    As I've noted before, we gave up the rule of law the instant we said, as a nation, "The terrorists of 9-11 don't deserve a trial -- let's just send the military over there and kill them all".

    Everything that has happened since, has its roots in that decision.  Once we begin treating law enforcement problems as MILITARY problems, we have given up a major part of "rule of law" (there's a reason for the Posse Comitatus Act -- a very good reason).  And once we give up any PART of the rule of law, it's ALL a dead letter. Inevitably.

    Unfortunately, most of us supported that decision enthusiastically, and still do.

    Editor, Red and Black Publishers http://www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

    by Lenny Flank on Sat May 10, 2008 at 01:04:30 PM PDT

    •  Bingo (0+ / 0-)

      Small quibble.  Many of us vigorously opposed this at the time - at least many of us here at DKOS.  But the fact is, the overwhelming majority of the elites - congressional and corporate leaders - supported this, while the rest of the country was bored with the details.  This, after all, is how corporations run EVERY DAY.  They are full of spying, cheating, and manipulation of the record.  That's what Americans now believe is normal behavior.  Our standards are set in the workplace - not in Civics class.  And there's a reason Chomsky refers to corporations as private tyrannies.

  •  They "believe," they are being listened to (0+ / 0-)

    but offer no proof and everybody here is ready to lynch someone. How ironic.

    A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

    by Doodad on Sat May 10, 2008 at 02:54:20 PM PDT

  •  What to do with George and Dick (0+ / 0-)

    When this is all over, and god help us all a Democrat moves into the White House, how is all this deceit, lying, killing, bullshit, going to be stuffed down George and Dicks throats. People must be planning on ways that they can at the very least strip them of every cent they have, take away their property, even if they have homes in Florida, and if necessary make the First Bush and Barbera responsible for spawning this abhorant human being. Kennebunkport, take it away. Make them all work pumping gas in East LA or Detroit inner city, somewhere where they can get to know real Americans. The vitriol coming out of me, and I am Canadian, I just can't imagine how angry some of you folks must be. But I'm looking for the public execution advocates web-site and I see none. Can Nancy Pelosi be right? No it can't be these guys get off free.

    Lary Waldman

    It happens, when you can't work it out.

    by lwaldmann on Sat May 10, 2008 at 03:22:58 PM PDT

  •  Complicity of Congressional Dems WAS (0+ / 0-)

    astonishing back in 2001 when it started.  But it has long since ceased to astonish.

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