Travel Overseas on Holiday? You are Suspect.

Figuring the Bush (free beer) economic stimulus package was no more than a pittance considering what my family has spent on his damn war, we traveled overseas for the last few weeks and spend our bonus moola in the EU.

And what reward do I get for spreading the love?

Complete hassle to get back into the country.

Anyone else finding passport/border control a bit overbearing these days?

The flight from Europe was one of those grueling 11 hours deals, where the sun never sets and your day becomes 36+ hours long.

At passport control I was asked to join the baggage search line.

Fine with me.

Dig through my dirty underwear and smelly socks if that's how you get your jollies Mr. TSA.

But then came the strange questions.

Where did you go?
Where did you come from most recently?
Where do you work?
What is your job?
Did you travel alone?
What was the purpose of your travel?
May we see your driver's license in addition to your passport?

The smart ass in me was tempted to ask if I was under arrest.

If so, I really would prefer a lawyer present when the state starts asking me all these personal questions and demanding duplicate ID.

I am a fucking taxpayer with a valid passport. What right does anyone have to dig into my life like that?

But then I realized, the official US border arbitrarily set inside the airport was still 30 feet away. I decided to keep my trap shut and hope for the best.

Perhaps I didn't have any Miranda rights yet.

Any lawyers out there? When do we become American citizens in an airport? Or am I just being old-fashioned to think I have certain rights as a US citizen?

•  um

  They've asked those questions for years.  They ask them in non-US airports, in fact.  Heathrow sucks, from what I've heard.  They wanted to fingerprint EVERYONE, but I think that proposal wasn't too popular.

  And try being foreign - you get fingerprinted and photographed when entering the US.

  by Plutonium Page on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:46:02 PM PDT

  •  Heathrow is unbelievable...

    going in and coming out of the UK.  I've gotten pulled aside and given the third degree LEAVING the UK and asked basically the same question different ways as if they want to trip me up.

    by RadicalGardener on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:43:35 PM PDT

    •  On the other hand...

      They admitted me without a valid passport (or Visa) or indeed any indication of where I had been for the last thirty years.

      YMMV.

      by Demena on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:00:01 PM PDT

      •  are you a british citizen?

        by RadicalGardener on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:19:50 PM PDT

•  Travel while you still can.

  This country is starting to feel like the old USSR.

  by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:49:55 PM PDT

  •  no.

    You have no idea how lucky we are.

    by Plutonium Page on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:55:14 PM PDT

    •  I do--which make me real motivated

      to keep it that way.

      (or improve it...)

      by PeterHug on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:10:43 PM PDT

  •  USSR or East Germany,

    that is the question.

    by G2geek on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:22:24 PM PDT

•  Did they hassle you

  in ways other than this?  These are pretty standard questions that I've been asked when travelling back and forth from Europe.  I'm always really nervous that I'll accidentally slip up and be a smart ass.  Since I'm always with my husband I let him do the talking. :)

  by llamaRCA on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:52:23 PM PDT

  •  They looked up my file on the computer

    After a few minutes, they realized I was Mr. Clean and thanked me for my time.

    They didn't even check the fricken bags. Just wanted to hassle me and get a bunch of info for the files.

    WTF?

    "We'd like to help you learn to help yourself."

    by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:58:08 PM PDT

    •  We'd like to know a little bit

      about you for our files.

      We'd like to help you learn to help yourself.

      Look around you, all you see are sympathetic smiles

      Stroll around the grounds until you feel at home

      And here's to you, Misses Robinson,

      Jesus loves you more than you would know

      Wo-wo-wo....

      (My God was that ever prophetic!  I was just a little kid when it was on the radio, but I won't forget those lines.  And interestingly, the song was about someone who was signed into a psychiatric hospital.  Signs of the times.)  (Yeah, I'll admit it, the Boomers had some good music.)  (And punk rock still rules, dammit!)

      by G2geek on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:26:37 PM PDT

      •  sometimes being on this site

        makes me feel reeeeeeeeeaaal old.  this is one of those times.

        the boomers had some good music?  sigh.

        by RadicalGardener on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:28:53 PM PDT

        •  hell yeah they did.

          Simon & Garfunkel.  The Dead.  I even went to a Dead concert, they were supremely talented, and the surviving members still are.  Paul Simon, Jerry Garcia, my God what voices!, one in a thousand each, like Michael Stipe and Bono and a few others from my generation.  

          A few others from the 60s, I can't think of their names at the moment.  People who stayed true to their music and their ideals, whose songs still resonate with the spirit, even 30- or 40-something years later.  Can't forget the Beatles either, or the Byrds, some of their stuff really did suggest being on an acid trip in very subtle ways (brief syncopations and sudden interesting harmonies).  Frank Zappa, a genius in his own way.  There were some sell-outs and hypocrites too, but there were many who didn't go that route.  The latter I can still listen to and feel connected with that unbroken thread that's gone through the entire 20th century (starting with jazz & the blues) and into the present.  

          by G2geek on Sat May 10, 2008 at 11:02:12 PM PDT

          •  oh i know, i know....

            i didn't mean to imply otherwise ... it was that the post seemed to suggest that this was something that needed to be recalled and relayed as information to everyone ... who might not be familiar with the music and not know that 'Mrs Robinson' was from the movie 'The Graduate' etc.  whereas this was the music that shaped my life and is, in some sort of way, the bubble in which i still live  ... see where I'm going with this?   I mean, I think my older sister is ancient because she was into Fabian.  Fabian!!!

            It reminds me of the time when someone was interested in me and we went out and were yacking away about something.  And I asked him where he was when JFK was assassinated (I was eleven) and he said he was in the hospital.  So I asked if he was getting his tonsils out or something. And he said, no he was being born.  oooops.

            by RadicalGardener on Sat May 10, 2008 at 11:58:59 PM PDT

          •  Actually, it's interesting...

            ... that to my mind, at that time, when he first hit the scene, I thought Elton Johns was the big sell out who deviated from the spirit and ideals of the times, with his emphasis on materialism and consumerism.  

            you forgot to mention Buffalo Springfield, Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, Jefferson Airplane/Starship, Santana, Moby Grape - these were also groups who honored the music that came through them and made it their gift.  

            by RadicalGardener on Sun May 11, 2008 at 12:04:46 AM PDT

  •  These Are Very Standard Questions

    That I have gotten even pre-9/11. I don't like them but if you are like me (and I am sure you are) you have nothing to hide just answer and move on.

    I am a total civilian libertarian and I don't like them, but it is nothing new.

    by webranding on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:02:14 PM PDT

    •  I've been traveling overseas since 1980

      & I've been to Europe over two dozen times, the last time a year ago.

      I have never, ever been asked that litany of questions by anyone at customs & immigration. EVER. Before or after 9-11.

      Some of that information (e.g., "where you came from") is obvious from the entry forms they give out on the flights home that you fill out & present at passport control (with among other things flight number & a blank for listing where you've been). But no one--here or abroad--in an official capacity has ever asked where I work or what my job is.

      And just FTR, the only time I got more than a cursory glance from a US customs person was upon return from Turkey in 1996--when the agent looked at my declaration & said, You know, you don't have to pay duty on these items--& saved me about $50.

      YMMV, as always.

      by Uncle Cosmo on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:22:32 PM PDT

      •  Always asked that coming in from Canada

        U.S. border patrol always used to grill motorists coming back from Canada, as long ago as the early 80s in my experience. Even used to ask to check the trunk, I think for beer, but maybe that's because I was college age. Now they probably check for medicines. There were always routine questions coming back on international flights - where did you go, what do you do for a living, etc. The only thing that gets my goat is when the customs agents start playing Dick Tracy. Either check the baggage or don't, but skip the third degree, please.

        by cadejo4 on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:56:50 PM PDT

        •  Thanks,

          exactly my point.

          by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:00:21 PM PDT

        •  That could well be, since

          most of my experience doesn't include returning to the States after spending (possibly an unspecified amount of) time in Canada, during which I guess I could've gone damn near anywhere & done damn near anything. And none of it includes crossing the USA-CAN border at ground level on the way home.

          The only two times I came in from Canada were in 1988 and 2007. Last year, those of us on the flight from London who were headed for the US never officially entered Canada; we collected our bags separately from those remaining in Canada, had our US forms checked in the Toronto airport by US customs and immigration officials, & then were set free into an area limited to US-bound flights.

          All I recall about 1988 (when I'd caught a ride from a work meeting from Plattsburgh NY with a fellow attendee to Montreal, where I took a long weekend as holiday & then flew to Boston for another meeting)  is the metal snaps on my faux cowboy shirt set the Doorway of Doom off in the airport at Dorval & then being wanded for the first time. If they asked me who I worked for then, it didn't register as significant enough for me to recall it 20 years later.

          So maybe we are talking about mutually exclusive experiences.

          by Uncle Cosmo on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:44:02 PM PDT

      •  I have been asked them several times

        both before and after 9/11.  The most detailed security I have had other than El Al was in Germany to get on a flight to the US.  But I have occasionally been stopped coming into the US.  I travel a lot, and have several visas (including a whole bunch in Arabic -- all to Egypt) in my previous passport.  The new one is pretty empty, and may stay that way, as I can't afford the cost of traveling abroad these days.

        by annetteboardman on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:51:26 PM PDT

•  They've always asked questions even in the 1990s

  I've only been traveling out of the US since the early 90s and what you describe seems fairly typical.  I recall my sis getting hassled big time coming back from Mexico on a trip she took with friends after graduating from college but before they had regular jobs.  

  Me? I was always asked questions about my employment entering Canada -- they want to make sure I wasn't going to stay.

  by akeitz on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:53:51 PM PDT

  •  Wow. Last time I was overseas

    was 1988, and got asked questions about my luggage at the French airport (did you pack it yourself...have you been with it since you packed it...etc.) which I've also gotten here--that's just standard--but asking about jobs?  WTF?  Like anybody who is actually a terrorist is going to tell them that?

    by Youffraita on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:56:39 PM PDT

    •  I was sitting next to a guy from Luxemborg

      He had to fill out a questionnaire, a green form for non visa holders, which actually asked if he was ever a "terrorist" or had been involved in any "genocides." We had a good laugh.

      I'm sure Osama's really gonna check the YES box.

      He joked about writing in, "Only on weekends." But I talked him out of it warning that the U.S. border patrol are a famously humorless bunch.

      This is idiocy pure and simple, and we are paying big bucks for it.

      by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:04:18 PM PDT

      •  I Was On A US Only Flight Two Months Ago

        A couple from Kansas, their first time on a plane, had run into problems. Twice her husband, and they had to be 70-75, had been pulled aside. The third time when they got on the plane.

        To say they were panicked is an understatement. While her husband was taking off the plane, as we sat waiting to take off, I am not even sure she realized she started to hold my hand.

        International flight is one thing. I am ok with how it works. Domestic flights are totally fucked up!

        by webranding on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:08:53 PM PDT

      •  Also ask if you've been involved in

        human, sex or drug trafficking. I know, it's crazy.

        by cadejo4 on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:58:57 PM PDT

        •  Sex in traffic?

          No sir, officer, that's quite dangerous.

          ; )

          by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:01:57 PM PDT

        •  Well, I never.

          I assure that I have never had anything other than human sex.  Also I have taken medication while driving.

          I guess they would never let me in.

          by Demena on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:04:43 PM PDT

    •  oh those questions aren't about terrorism

      I think they are about profiling you as a possible smuggler or mule.

      by akeitz on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:18:52 PM PDT

      •  I do think it was about drugs

        You are probably right.

        by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:29:56 PM PDT

•  I know it is pointless whining, but...

  in addition to the cost of the flights, the other reason that I have not returned to the USA since leaving in Aug 2005, is the hostility from the officials from my home country. I just refuse to be treated this way and it really kills any interest in returning to my original home.

  I call it whining because no one of any authority, elected or appointed, cares about this minor inconvenience to its own citizens and visa holders.

  by shann on Sat May 10, 2008 at 06:55:17 PM PDT

  •  where do you live now and..

    how is it being an ex-pat?

    i ask in case this election thing doesn't go the way i'd like it to!  i just spent a year in the UK and it was hard in a lot of ways...i wonder if i could ever give up my native country.

    by RadicalGardener on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:37:49 PM PDT

    •  I live in the Philippines

      Unless you are ready to retire, you don't want to move here as you can't make a living off the local economy. It is a 3rd world country in the strictest sense of the term.

      by shann on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:27:01 AM PDT

  •  Agreed

    Of all the places I have been in the world (40+ countries), without a doubt the worst treatment I have received has been on entering the US.

    I do everything I can to avoid traveling into the US.

    Yeah and I know they are probably tracing my IP address to really hassle me the next time I have to cross the border ... well guys it can't be worse than that time at 6am one morning when half asleep, as soon as I pulled up to the border, two guys with guns drawn stepped in front of my car and ordered me out of the car. Real nice. (Turned out my rented car had been used in some funny business at some point).

    And that wasn't the only case ... just the scariest.

    by taonow on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:45:19 PM PDT

    •  they know your type, taonow. ;-)

      They know trouble when they see it.

      by worldwideellen on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:05:18 PM PDT

      •  I know

        It is a pain though. I want to take a trip out to Western Canada this year with the family and I would love to circle down into Montana and maybe head down to Colorado too before coming back to eastern Canada, but the hassle really puts me off. May just have to head up to the Yukon instead.

        I know I probably sound really picky ... but there is a principle involved. If you want to give me a rough time to come into your country, then I don't have to (or want to) come in.

        by taonow on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:12:35 PM PDT

        •  if you decide to brave it, come thru Oregon

          We'll have a two-family meetup.

          by worldwideellen on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:36:04 PM PDT

•  Back in 1992

  when I was just a young punk with long hair and dirty clothes, I traveled around Europe.  The border guards very interested in the details of my life.  

  by johnny rotten on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:11:10 PM PDT

  •  Probably prurient interest

    They probably wanted a vicarious turn-on.

    by david78209 on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:22:05 PM PDT

    •  Q's like: How many orgies you been to, Punker?

      Ever kissed a girl?

      What's it like?

      by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:31:49 PM PDT

•  The TSA is a joke

  They just want you to think twice before leaving the country.  Go to Hartsfield-Jackson Airport in Atlanta, and other than the long lines you'd never think we had any heightened security at all.  

  When returning home, just smile and say thank you, that you're glad to be home.  I doubt that most of TSA's employees have even flown before, much less out of the country.  They do what they are told, and it shows on their miserable faces.  God bless'em.

  by Transient Smitty on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:13:03 PM PDT

•  TSA pervs got me driving

    I was living in Iowa/Nebraska, working in New Mexico/Arizona, and after nearly losing a fingertip in a faulty TSA chair and being freakin' held there while they properly searched me I said "Enough of this shit". The places I was going were very rural and drive time was only an hour or so more than flight time, plus I didn't have car rental.

   I'm gettin' on Amtrak next for cross country travel ... airlines, hell, they can all go bankrupt as far as I care. Last I knew I was still sitting over uninspected freight after I got the body cavity search ...

  by Stranded Wind on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:15:32 PM PDT

•  back in the 80's i went to Nicaragua

  via Mexico City, but i came back via Miami.  once back in the USA, in the Miami airport, i was hassled like i hope to never be hassled again in my life.  came a few short minutes of being strip searched just for the hell of it, i guess.  a nun i was with came and stood defiantly with me as if to say 'you'll have to search both of us then, and we will want to get the correct spelling of your name for the story we will splash across the pages of every major paper in the u.s.'  it did the trick.

  but that was during the Reagan administration and so when my passport expired with all the weird visa stamps on it, i didn't renew it until clinton was in office.  i got paranoid and thought maybe the IRS would hassle me, or who knows what.  i may not have been justified in my thinking, but maybe i was.

  i think it is wise to keep a sassy tongue firmly locked behind clenched teeth in any situation with authorities - if that's what it takes.  a lot of those guys are cool and just doing their jobs.

  by RadicalGardener on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:30:55 PM PDT

  •  i should also say i have had really great ...

    coming back into the u.s. last time after a year away, i got a whole lot of welcome homes; one time after being in england during the hoof and mouth outbreak, customs wanted to confiscate my walking shoes but when he saw that they were a bit costly, he just said 'please, for my peace of mind, will you just go home and wash them down with a dilution of bleach?', other times i've had customs just say things like "the only question i have is 'did you have a good time?"

    by RadicalGardener on Sat May 10, 2008 at 10:24:41 PM PDT

•  I live in China and come home frequently...

  and I see absolutely nothing wrong with those questions.  Getting into countries around Asia is much tougher.  and have you tried to go to Canada recently?  They ask even more.  And it is their right!  Americans seem to have this mentality that we should be totally free anywhere we go, and waltz back home without a second glance.   It's a different world than it used to be.

  I come back to the US many time  a year and have never been hassled at all.  (Having two kids with me usually disqualifies me from intense scrutiny.)  but once my daughter (who was 11 at the time) came up as the randomly picked name to do a total search.  The agents could not have been nicer, and allowed me to stay with her, but this is the law and they had no choice.

  Security is going to get tougher.  get used to it.  

  by dorothyinchina on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:37:22 PM PDT

  •  "this mentality...

    ...that we should be totally free anywhere we go, and waltz back home without a second glance."

    Well, yes. I do believe that.

    That is what living in a "Free Nation" means.

    The difference between the old totalitarian Eastern Bloc nations and our beloved Free World was that we were able to travel freely without government restrictions or interrogation.

    But we still can't visit Cuba, for no good reason.

    by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:47:11 PM PDT

    •  Yes, the sad fact of the matter is

      everytime we are treated to such behavior in the name of "our own good" it means that the terrorists really have won. That they have succeeded in forcing our fellow citizens to abuse and harrass us in the name of freedom must be the most delicious icing on the cake.

      by armenia on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:22:28 PM PDT

  •  Why

    I really don't understand why. And no 9/11 is not a good reason.

    Add up the amount of time that is wasted and cost it out. It is insane...fro what benefit?

    Studies have shown that training agents to look at behavior and watch for key things is far more effective. All this terror watch list is a joke.

    by taonow on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:49:32 PM PDT

  •  you don't know what you're talking about.

    It's not just about "where did you go and where do you work?"

    These days the questions include items about your POLITICS AND RELIGION.

    Yeah, I'm serious.

    Go to www.eff.org and the ACLU site and go looking for the items about Americans returning from abroad.  Take some time to learn about what's going on here before you write the Regime a blank check.  

    YES we DO have a right to travel.  And YES we DO have a right to come back home without having to disclose information that is clearly protected by one or more of our ennumerated rights under the Constitution.

    And NO we are NOT going to allow our country to become like East Germany.  Or the People's Republic of China for that matter.  

    by G2geek on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:53:15 PM PDT

•  You ARE being old-fashioned.

  Watch the movie "Rendition" or read Naomi Wolf's book, "The End of America: A Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot".  All your rights as an American are null and void the minute ANYONE working for the government begins to suspect you MIGHT have connections to terrorism.  Wolf calls it a "status offense", and it can be leveled against anyone, at anytime, for any reason.    Watch the movie.  Read the book.  Afterwards, I guarantee, the next time you're in a situation like that at the airport, you won't be feeling saucy... you'll be sweatin' bullets!

  by delillo2000 on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:39:02 PM PDT

•  One reason they ask questions about background

  is to ferret out people who don't have the legal right to be in the country. They look for people stumbling over basic answers like "where do you work".  The Canadians ask similar questions - when I went to Toronto for my uncle's funeral a couple of years ago, I was grilled for several minutes about my uncle's name, what he had done while alive, where he was from, etc. I thought it was pretty rude but it's no different than what American agents have done to me.

  I'm not sure this is as necessary with the new passports, frankly. It was a big way the US border agents controlled movement on the Canadian border before passports were required.  It probably resulted in all sorts of profiling I'm sure.

  by decembersue on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:41:30 PM PDT

•  Still looking for a lawyer

  To address the question.

  Do American citizens have any civil rights outside the border?

  Is Miranda in effect waiting in line/but not officially in the country at a U.S. airport?

  by greendem on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:54:04 PM PDT

  •  To answer your question

    The U.S. Supreme Court has held that routine searches are per se reasonable at border crossings and therefore do not violate the 4th Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures.  If they want to do something more invasive or injurious to your privacy - say strip search you or do a body cavity search - the agents must have some reasonable suspicion.  

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    by johnny rotten on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:11:43 PM PDT

    •  have I got news for you, and it's not good.

      The Ninth Circuit just ruled, unanimously 3-0, that border agents have the right to search your laptop computer and any other electronic devices, including copying your entire hard drive, WITHOUT having to demonstrate any specific or particular or even reasonable suspicion.

      Your email, your journals, your photos, your most private thoughts committed to bits & bytes, your list of perferred news sources, the details of your work (lawyers with confidential client information? heh), and even your taste in (consenting adult) porn, are all fodder for the new vacuum cleaner of enforced orthodoxy.

      It's worse than a strip search.  A strip search is only an assault upon your body.  Having your hard drive copied is an assault upon your thoughts.  

      They are now allowed to do it JUST BECAUSE.  Perhaps because you have dark skin.  Perhaps because you have the wrong name.  Perhaps because they found the wrong scriptures in your suitcase.  Perhaps because of the EFF or ACLU sticker on your laptop.  Perhaps because of the little copy of the Constitution you keep folded up in your wallet.  

      Some of us are working on technical solutions to this problem, and there will be detailed instructions published as soon as they are ready.  

      Between now and then, welcome to the Stasi State where it's not just about "suspicious objects," but about "suspicious ideas."

      by G2geek on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:01:00 PM PDT

•  Most of the time ..

  I am traveling overseas 12-15 times a year and in about 70 percent of the re-entry they ask those or similar questions. They did that already before 9/11.

  by DBCA on Sat May 10, 2008 at 07:59:41 PM PDT

•  Just be glad they didn't copy or confiscate

  your cellphone or laptop!

  by 1BQ on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:05:12 PM PDT

  •  see my post above

    under the header "have I got news for you, and it's not good."

    However, some of us are working on technical solutions to this, and when we have something, we'll publish detailed instructions.

    If they want to declare war on "suspicious ideas," it's war they're going to get.  And they are going to lose, just as they have lost in every other vile dictatorship.

    We will not stand by and see our beloved country turned into a 21st Century version of East Germany.

    by G2geek on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:03:53 PM PDT

•  I will say this:

  Coming back into the U.S. with my husband and kids recently, a U.S. border agent in San Francisco encouraged me to join my 10-year-old daughter on those footprints on the floor.  Everywhere we had been in Asia -- China, Thailand, Cambodia -- we were required to send the little one through by herself.  Even when she was a mere 7.  As I stepped up to the agent, I expressed surprise at being allowed to help get her through (though the kid's getting good at looking 'em in the eye and answering the questions by herself).  "Oh, we like families here," the agent said.

  by worldwideellen on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:11:10 PM PDT

•  Be glad you've got it so easy

  Truth be told, those questions aren't that bad.  El Al flight security is much deeper and more personal.  El Al has yet to experience a hijacking on one of their flights since the first one in 1968 by the PFLF.  They ask questions the ACLU would flip their shit over.  They aren't fingerprinting you and putting microchips under your skin, there's no need to complain about telling them where you were.

  by Obamaniac08 on Sat May 10, 2008 at 08:50:38 PM PDT

  •  there's a difference.

    Israel is a tiny little country surrounded by much more populous countries that want it wiped off the map.

    Israel is subjected to terrorist bombings on almost a daily basis.  

    Israel's very reason for its existence is its identification with a specific culture and religion, and the people who are part of that culture and religion, which/who have been historically vilified, persecuted, and nearly genocided; and which/who is to this day the object of those kinds of hatreds on the part of its very neighbors.

    Israeli security people have every good reason to be stark staring paranoid.

    And I say this as someone who is not a Zionist, not even Jewish, certainly not a blind supporter of Israel, and often enough a critic of Israel.  

    WE do not have the problems the Israelis face.  In particular we are not outnumbered by people all around us who want to kill us because of who we are, and who routinely blow us up in public places.  

    Most of us gladly put up with increased security measures after 9/11, when we thought that the Bush administration would operate in a manner consistent with what we were raised to believe was appropriate in times of national emergency.

    We would gladly put up with even more IF this administration had not demonstrated time and time again that it is a) incompetent, b) on an ideological vendetta, and c) dedicated primarily to increasing its own power by means that include violating some of the most essential and universal moral prohibitions such as those against disappearance and torture.

    Give me a sane, competent, fair-minded administration, that is not corrupt and not engaged in petty tyranny, and give me security measures that are truly relevant to stopping terrorists, and I will gladly put up with inconvenience and even a certain degree of intrusiveness.  I'll still draw the line at copying hard drives, because that's one click away from copying the contents of your brain, and we cannot go there under any circumstances.  

    But recall that Patrick Henry did not say "give me security and give me convenience."  He and the rest put their lives and their honor at stake for the proposition, "give me liberty or give me death."

    Tyranny will destroy us far more completely than terrorism could ever hope to do.

    by G2geek on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:20:50 PM PDT

•  Funny how experiences are so different...

  I typically fly in, through a very busy international airport.  About 75% of the time I'm with my family, including my non-citizen husband. (We were always permitted to just hand the whole handful of family passports at once - I've never sent my kids through alone, even my college aged ones, for whatever it's worth, and never had a complaint.  I also stand in the US citizen line, and give my husband's foreign passport along with ours - he has a standing visa - and never have had them complain about that, or send him to another line either.)

  I don't remember getting more than an occasional question about what we did overseas (because we were gone so long between trips) before around 2 years ago.  Even just after 9/11 when we came home for Christmas, I had no problems, and remember even getting teary slightly at the warm "Welcome Home" from the border agent.  It does seem to me there are many more questions now though.  They aren't hostile, or rude, just firm in tone.  They don't seem to write down my answers, so it hasn't bothered me much, since it seems more for screening than for any kind of record keeping.  I could be wrong though.  :)

  What bothers me far more is the occasional over-the-top rudeness to the non-citizens on the flights with me.  One flight from Africa, the airline attendants forgot to wake people to hand out entry forms, so a lot of people didn't have them.  The guy next to the one checking me in, stood up and bellowed about the need for a form, but in such an arrogant and rude voice that I was cringing, because it's not the first impression I want people to have of my country.  Then, I could say the same about the behavior of some consular offices when people are asking for visas.  You can say no, or give directions, without being insulting.  That being said, I'm sure the jobs aren't easy.

  by American in Kathmandu on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:00:47 PM PDT

•  I got these sort of questions before

  Where I work, where I live, where I go to school, what am I studying.

  They are annoying, especially when you know not everyone has to answer those questions, just he ones lucky enough to get profiled by the customs agent.

  I do think there should be limits...
  lets say they start asking about political affiliation, sexual orientation, marital status, whether you have kids. Standard questions that in a regular job interview are inappropriate and prohibited.

  There should be some limits..

  then, every time there is a contact like this, the agent should furnish the traveler a form with the agents name and badge number, and a way to evaluate the contact with the officer.

  One can dream that someday we can actually have a say in the way we are treated as citizens.
  I do not want to live in East Germany or North Korea.

  by dan in sd on Sat May 10, 2008 at 09:38:02 PM PDT