Daily Kos

Obama and women’s reproductive rights – Take a stand Senator!

Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:14:34 PM PDT

In an election cycle alternatively dominated either by Iraq and foreign policy or by the stumbling US economy, it is inevitable that some important issues have not received the attention that they deserve.  Many of these issues are not trivial.  As the presumptive nominee of our party, I expect Senator Obama to take a leading role in directing the party’s message and tone going into the 2008 election, and for me that includes addressing some things that he has so far neglected in his speeches and position papers.  Although there are others, in this diary I will discuss Obama’s positions on women’s reproductive rights.  This is a bread and butter progressive issue, yet is not afforded significant coverage in the "Issues" pages of Obama’s website or in his detailed "Blueprint for Change."  Instead, Obama’s position on women’s reproductive rights was added to his campaign site only recently and is still relegated to the "Fact check" section.  That is disappointing.  Some of you might not think this is a big deal, but I strongly disagree and I’ll tell you why.    

If you haven’t already flamed me for daring to criticize Obama's campaign strategy, lets take the jump ~~~~~

This is a long diary, for which I apologize to those of you who have gotten used to the insubstantial posts that have proliferated here recently, but I think that the length is appropriate because this is an important issue.

Summary

I want Obama to address women’s reproductive rights more explicitly and more prominently.  To do so would be consistent with his record, would establish him as the straight-talker in the elections and, perhaps most importantly, I think that doing so would help him win critical votes in the upcoming general election.  If being a post-partisan candidate means brushing aside or hiding issues central to the progressive political movement (on which Obama’s record is exceedingly strong!), perhaps we should give a bit more thought to how Obama and his team are framing his candidacy.  I don’t want a centrist in the White House -- I want a progressive, and part of what that entails is taking a firm, public and proactive stand on women’s right to determine t rather than playing defense on the issue.  I guess one could say that I am concerned, and if you give a minute to think about these things perhaps you would be too (at least a little, and probably in a good way).  Sorry, but I’m a high-information voter and I have high expectations from the candidate I have chosen to support.

I support Obama

I think it’s actually disgraceful that I have to even say this, but I’ll do it anyway in the hopes of invoking less wrath.  This is not intended to be a hit diary on Obama in the least, but rather one that inspires or provokes some critical thought about the strategy and tactics of our presumptive nominee and his campaign.  My support for Obama has been unwavering since last fall – after considering all of the candidates I voted for Obama in FL, attempted to persuade family and friends across the country to support him (http://www.dailykos.com/...), donated to his campaign multiple times, phone banked to IN and NC (http://www.dailykos.com/...) and participated in a local Vote for Change Event on 10 May.    

However, no candidate is perfect and certainly none are above criticism and questioning.  In this case, my criticism is based more on strategy than Obama’s actual position.  I will absolutely vote for him in November without any hesitation, but I’d be even happier to do so if he spoke up more about his positions and voting record on women’s issues, particularly reproductive rights.

Obama has a strong progressive record on supporting a woman’s right to choose

Senator Obama supports women’s rights regarding their reproduction choices and has stated that he would not appoint SCOTUS justices who would overturn the Roe v. Wade ruling.  Furthermore, Obama supports funding for family planning programs and is opposed to abstinence-only sex education.  These statements and the votes to back them up are a matter of public record, and I doubt that Obama simply tailored them to indicate a pro-choice position for convenience.

For more discussion of Obama’s position and some quotations from him and others bolstering his pro-choice credentials, check the website.

Some of the highlights of Obama’s voting history include a 100% voting record from NARAL Pro-Choice America and a 100% voting record from both Illinois Planned Parenthood and the national chapter of Planned Parenthood.

Sen. Obama should be proud of this history and should make his position very clear rather than tucking it away in an obscure corner of his website.  Even there, the fact check section is primarily a response to criticisms rather than a proactive stand for women’s rights.  Indeed, the section was only added to the website in January 2008 when he came under fire from the Clinton campaign on women’s rights.    

There has been some consternation over Obama’s "present" votes in the IL state senate on abortion rights legislation.  I regard this as basically a red herring, but perhaps one that is indicative of what I see as a potentially larger problem for Obama’s campaign.  HuffPo had a decent article a few months ago describing how Sen. Clinton attacked Obama’s apparently noncommittal "present" votes on anti-abortion legislation.  In response, the Illinois chapter of Planned Parenthood defended Obama, and in doing so they pretty much completely rebuffed Clinton’s attack:

Voting "present" is a legislative maneuver in Illinois employed by lawmakers to register opposition to a proposal, without being on the record with a "yes" or "no" vote. Lawmakers like the maneuver because it is difficult to use against a candidate in a future campaign ad.

Planned Parenthood knew that Obama was an ally to their cause and was willing to coordinate certain votes with him to protect him from anti-choice detractors.  Ok, that makes sense, although I think it’s pretty damn lame.  Exceedingly lame, actually, but not irredeemable.  For more on this mini-controversy, read the entire HuffPo story here.

How do Sen. Clinton and Sen. Obama compare on women’s rights and contrast with McCain?  See for yourself:

Quoted from a diary by SaintCog

Hillary Clinton: Strong Pro-Choice
• Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
• Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
• Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)

Barack Obama: Strong Pro-Choice
• Voted against banning partial birth abortion. (Oct 2007)
• Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
• Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)

John McCain: Strong to Moderate Pro-Life
• Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007)
• Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
• Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)

Given that Obama has such an apparently strong record, I assume that his lack of emphasis on these issues can be attributed to tactical campaign decisions.  Below I speculate what might have motivated these decisions and why they absolutely need to be modified for the general election fight against John McCain.  After all, the President does not have the luxury of voting "present" if he or she doesn’t want to make waves.

Pandering to the middle and ceding women’s issues to Clinton is a big mistake for general election success

If their voting histories are so similar, why has Obama almost completely ceded strength on women’s rights to Sen. Clinton?  Is he afraid of how people will react to his record?  Was it a tactical decision to target anti-choice voters he considered essential for his primary success?  At any rate, it seems pretty clear that, at least up until now, Obama has declined to make any major statements on reproductive rights without being asked about them.  He has played defense, but not offense. Why not?  I have a couple of ideas:

  1.  Obama’s campaign realized that many people for whom women’s right are a make-or-break issue were going to vote for Sen. Clinton anyway.  This was borne out in exit polling, which generally found that white women who are registered Democrats voted overwhelmingly for Clinton.  Maybe Obama realized that he couldn’t really get traction on women’s rights issues while fighting for votes against Clinton, who claims (and rightly so) that she is a champion for women.  I admire and respect Clinton's unambiguous support for women's rights, and I hope the Obama campaign gives them the same prominence in his future campaigning.  
  1.  Finding "common ground" is a major theme of Obama’s campaign.  In part, this means not alienating people who may vote for him.  Because abortion is such a divisive issue, maybe he avoided it to seem more moderate.  This probably won him some votes, I would guess particularly from white, anti-choice men who are registered as independents.  But this type of pandering by omission does not inspire much confidence or respect from people for whom the avoided issues are centrally important.  

Perhaps Obama’s campaign thought that he would do better playing to the middle in the primary process with the assumption that the Democratic voters would come home by November.  In hindsight, this might have been a pretty good strategy, but now that Obama basically has the primary in the bag, it is time to change gears.  Barack Obama is now faced with the task of convincing Sen. Clinton’s supporters that he can represent them and their interests, and speaking out for women’s rights should be a big part of that.  I know that Obama has many pro-choice supporters and that Clinton probably had quite a few anti-choice supporters, but we all know that a majority of Democratic women voted for Clinton in several key primary and caucus states.  These women are the base (or one of the strong bases, at least) of the Democratic party: they are informed, they organize, they fight for their candidates and they turn out to vote at high frequencies.  Simply put, Obama cannot afford to alienate them.  I don’t think that Clinton’s vocal support for women’s rights and the subsequent support she received from pro-choice white women was coincidental.  Rather, I suggest that this was a causal relationship, and that it would behoove Obama to make his position crystal clear and to then make an active effort to convince pro-choice women (and men) that he will be a leader for women’s rights.

Why is this important?

The culture wars are not over.  Although the anti-choice political movement has declined in power somewhat as the influence of the religious right has waned, it remains a political force that should not be ignored.  Several states will have anti-choice legislation on the ballot in November and this will mobilize the far right.  It could also mobilize advocates for reproductive choice, particularly if they have a strong leader speaking out on women’s rights.  Being a foil to an increasingly extremist John McCain is simply not good enough.  I want Barack Obama to be that leader on a national level, but to do that as we move into general election mode, he needs to take a stand as soon as possible to establish himself as a candidate who will fight for women’s rights.  

Poll below, but first a quick game: Guess my age, gender, level of education and favorite political blog.  Answers in the tip jar.

Poll

What should Obama do and say about his support for womenÃ<em>f</em><em>f</em>Ã,¢Ã<em>f</em>¢,Ã,¬<sup>TM</sup>s rights?

60%25 votes
2%1 votes
2%1 votes
17%7 votes
4%2 votes
12%5 votes

| 41 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Barack Obama, pro-choice, campaign strategy, women's rights, Hillary Clinton, 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 61 comments

  •  Tips (8+ / 0-)

    28/m/PhD in progress/DailyKos

    It's important to save the frog.

    by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:02:08 PM PDT

    •  Next time I'll just do a stupid veep diary. nt (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Nova Land, natalie902

      It's important to save the frog.

      by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:56:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, this is more interesting (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Nova Land

        I'm tipping you because this is a thoughtful diary that raises good points.  The fact that we disagree on aspects of it shouldn't discourage the discussion.  

        McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

        by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:02:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Don't be so discouraged! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sun dog

        It's an interesting discussion if a little hard hitting.  A lot of good ideas and a generally civil discussion.

      •  To Diary author - (0+ / 0-)

        don't stop writing REAL diaries like this. I am an Obama supporter (I was originally an Edwards supporter), but I am so sick of seeing the way the candidates are portrayed here are DKos. The only way to get on the rec list is to write that Obama is God, and/or that Senator Clinton is the Devil. I find it immature, intellectually lazy, and far too reminiscent of the wingnut mind-set.

        I am so glad that you brought up reproductive rights. These issues are so important, and yet they get very little discussion, even here at a "liberal" blog. This election has drawn out more explicit sexism from supposedly "progressive", "liberal" Democrats than I ever would have guessed. Funny how that works.

  •  ???????????? (11+ / 0-)

    If being a post-partisan candidate means brushing aside or hiding issues central to the progressive political movement (on which Obama’s record is exceedingly strong!), perhaps we should give a bit more thought to how Obama and his team are framing his candidacy

    How has he 'brushed aside' women's rights?  

    There is an element to what you do here that is like the flag pin thing.  He SAYS he's a patriot, but has he said it yet today?  

    He is a strong supporter of reproductive freedom.  Let's get him elected, shall we?  

    McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

    by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:19:32 PM PDT

    •  you missed my point completely, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      natalie902

      which is that I think Obama being vocal for women's rights should be part of what gets him elected.  So far he has not been.

      I think that he has brushed the issue aside by never mentioning it unless asked directly and not including a woman's right to choose front and center on his website (which is not easily searchable, I might add).  

      It's important to save the frog.

      by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:22:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In fact (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity

        this got a good airing before New Hampshire because of Clinton's baseless accusations against Obama's record.

        No one really knows what Obama's plan for the general is. There are a lot of issues and a lot of interested parties that will at any given time be ecstatic about Obama or depressed about Obama depending on what he has or hasn't said recently.

        •  he's repeatedly said (0+ / 0-)

          that he's for a woman's rights but at the same time instead of fighting over this issue he thinks it's better, smarter to instead reduce the number of unexpected unwanted pregancies though teaching and contrapcetives.

          To the dairest: I'm sorry but you're making a mountain out of a molehill, Obama is for a woman's rights but at the same time he's not going to try and win a fight that has not been resolved after 25+ years. Hence you do what you can with both sides.

      •  But I disagree (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        housesella, fayea, Junah, drache

        He is quite clear about his position on this.  I'm not sure exactly what you're proposing?  That he elaborates in all of his speeches about how he plans to protect and expand reproductive freedom?  We know that he will do that.  We also know that if he comes in like a crusader on it we will see a huge uptick in religious groups who feel absolutely compelled to organize in oppostion.  That oppostion already exists and amping up the rhetoric is exactly what they need to motivate their base and raise money.  

        How bout speak softly and carry a big stick?  What you are talking about is essentially sabre-rattling.  

        You either have poor political instincts or you're just trying to find ways to dig on O.  

        We are in a war of sorts over reproductive freedom.  I'd like to have a constitutional scholar President who respects women and understands the rights involved backed up by a Democratic majority in Congress.  Then let's push them to make sure that freedom isn't hanging by a thread of one Supreme Court decision.  

        McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

        by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:33:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understand your position (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sun dog

          and you might be right about this.  As I said, I think the current strategy probably has done what it was designed to do.

          However, I don't think that my political instincts are actually that poor, and I am certainly not looking for an excuse to "dig on O."    

          I like Obama a lot and his campaign team is smart.  Furthermore, I trust Obama to do the right thing when he gets into office, but I know that lots of Democrats do not share my optimism.  There are some people, including many current and soon-to-be former Clinton supporters, for whom women's rights are a make or break issue.  Obama will need their votes, too, and I think this is one issue where he can convince them.  He doesn't have to do it loudly, but I think he could speak up and be proactive a little more.

          It's important to save the frog.

          by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:47:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But if this is true (0+ / 0-)

            There are some people, including many current and soon-to-be former Clinton supporters, for whom women's rights are a make or break issue.

            Don't you think they're going to be voting with us in the fall if that genuinely matters to them?  Does he need to hold these positions or grandstand on them?  

            It is a crucial issue and I think it runs parallel with an entire approach to civil liberties that Obama will bring to office.  

            I just think if someone really cares about this issue, we're not going to lose them through the cracks.

            Sorry if my comment sounded overly critical because it's actually a pretty fine point where we disagree and I understand why you would think what you wrote.  

            Consider though that you may be overly influenced by all of the Concern peddaling in the media about the Huge Rift in the party because all those Clinton supporters are vowing not to support the nominee.  

            People say shit like that when they're frustrated and mad.  But behind the personality struggle in the primaries are very real issues.  Hillary represents issues to most of her supporters and Obama will be carrying the torch on those issues in the fall.  He is going to address those people and help them come around too.  He's good at that.

            Right now people are pissed.  After things cool off over the summer, there will be a very different perspective going into the convention.  We really are going to blow the doors off this thing in the fall.  

            McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

            by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:59:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I appreciate your thoughts on this (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Sun dog

              I hope they come around, and I think they will.  Obama is smart and so are his staff so I bet they know what they are doing.  This issue will come up, and I hope Obama does it on his own initiative.

              I'm strongly anti-concern-pedalling -- I actually started thinking about this a couple days ago when a good friend of mine (who supports HRC), claimed that she could not find anything about abortion rights on Obama's website.  I assured her that he has a strong record, but then I also couldn't find any position statements until I dug into the fact check section.  

              If my friend, who is fairly politically informed and cares about this issue a lot, was unsure of Obama's position then I'm sure lots of other people are as well.  Obama will probably get their votes anyway, but I guess I thought that he could solidify that expectation by being proactive.

              Obviously a lot of people here vehemently disagree.  But, for example, if I posted this on myDD (which I cannot actually do since I'm not registered there and only visit occasionally to mock) I bet it would get rec'ed up.  So not everyone gets it yet.  Just sayin'...

              It's important to save the frog.

              by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:11:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hell, if it's that simple (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                mtundu

                that you feel the website should have the information more easily available, then I agree with you.  

                I just don't think he needs to jump up and down and shout on this.  

                The fact is, there are going to be people voting for him who disagree with his pro-rights stance on abortion.  They will 'hold their nose' on that issue because they like him for other reasons.  But it's one of those things that if he keeps beating the drum on it, he's essentially rubbing their noses in it.  It's a difference between genuinely holding a position or being defined by it.

                Another place we agree is that those people holding their noses because they disagree with him do need to be engaged in conversation about this.  But an election campaign isn't necessarily the best place to set up that particular soapbox.  I'd rather hear him address the nation's concerns about this from the Oval Office.  

                I'd rather the whole thing be a more open conversation.  I think making abortion illegal is completely indefensible if you believe in the American Constitution and human dignity.  But it's hard to get the conversation to that point because of the emotions involved and the intentional efforts to obscure the end result of an honest debate on it.  

                I just don't think you make a run for the presidency a crusade to bring the country around on this issue.  They need to trust and like Barack enough to vote for him.  Then when the anti-reality groups go ballistic we can argue from a position of strength and with a wonderful communicator at the head of the pack.  

                McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

                by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:27:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Just had to say (4+ / 0-)

      You're so right about this being in the style of the flag pin nonsense.

      unimpeachable stance but because Obama hasn't commented recently then mischief makers sow a seed of doubt.

  •  He had stated that he is for a woman's right (8+ / 0-)

    to choose.  What else do you want.  I could care less if he runs around proclaiming his stand unprompted.  It will come up at some point because McCain wants to overturn Roe vs. Wade and appears to care little about women's issues.  Chill and let him do what he needs to do to win.  That's what is important.

    Boycott all Corporate Media with dishonorable journalistic standards. Obama vs McCain 2008

    by psdunc on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:23:46 PM PDT

    •  you might care less... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      natalie902

      but for a lot of people (whose votes Obama needs in November) it would make a big difference if he reminds them of his position.  I contend that this is exactly what he needs to do to win.

      It's important to save the frog.

      by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:26:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama has some terrific statements on ... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      natalie902

      ...reproductive rights. One thing the Diarist asks, quite rightly in my opinion, is that the Senator give more prominence to the issue on his Web site, as he does with other issues. Indeed, he could simply reproduce what NARAL has done on their page about him, which is here.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:34:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm with you on this, and I agree with your... (6+ / 0-)

    ...analysis of why Senator Obama has not brought this closer to the foreground.

    I also agree with this: I support Obama: I think it’s actually disgraceful that I have to even say this ... There is a cohort of Obama supporters here - a minority to be sure, but a loud-mouthed one - that takes even the mildest critique of the Senator, no matter how constructive or supportive, as reason to turn on the flamethrowers. These folks do not do their candidate any favors, and, as they obviously have difficulties with critical thinking, they do not merit calling themselves part of the reality-based community.

    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

    by Meteor Blades on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:24:01 PM PDT

    •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      natalie902

      Given the flames I'm getting from most of the comments I really appreciate this.

      I was actually prompted to write because a friend of mine and diehard HRC supporter said she couldn't find anything on Obama's website about women's rights.  She probably could have looked harder, but it made me think that there is no way that Obama should cede this issue, particularly not in GE mode.  

      It's important to save the frog.

      by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:31:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You need to learn the difference (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sun dog
        between disagreement and  "flaming." I haven't seen a single post here that remotely qualifies as "flaming." In fact, I disagree with you for reasons others have stated. Flogging this issue will simply allow the GOP to latch onto one of those divisive side issues they do so well and energize their evangelical base. They are dying to do this because evagelicals don't trust McCain. Obama has a perfect pro-choice record, and I count actions more than an endless stream of words. I've often seen people here complain that Obama doesn't emphasize this issue or that issue enough but one of the problems with that is that one of the most ineffective ways to campaign (as Democrats have discovered from doing it too much without results) is to present a laundry list of policy positions. Republicans have been far more successful pushing concepts often symbolized by these divisive issues.

        We're retiring Steve LaTourette (R-Family Values for You But Not for Me) and sending Judge Bill O'Neill to Congress from Ohio-14: http://www.oneill08.com/

        by anastasia p on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:34:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Don't know if I agree with the first part. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades

      There are always many reasons why a paticular topic doesn't make a specific call out on the issues page.  If I had a dollar for every "I won't support X becasue they don't directly adress my pet issue of..." I could stop selling my body for icecream.  However, I realize that this is not just some pet issue and should get more play.

      On the second point I couldn't agree more.  It is the reason for my current sig, one that I thouhgt I could change by now.

      McCain and Lobbyists; McCain on NAFTA

      by ETinKC on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:33:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  His positions are so well known (7+ / 0-)

    ...they really don't need defending. He's got 100% approval from NARAL et al.

    I think this is a nonstarter.

  •  Did you miss the story about (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    paintitblue, Dougie, Junah

    "punished with a baby"? - a rather inartful way of stating that he supports abortion rights but forthright all the same.

    "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

    by Pandoras Box on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:25:12 PM PDT

  •  I remember one debate (5+ / 0-)

    where they asked the candidates (all 8 of them) about their views on Roe v. Wade and I every single person said pretty much the exact same thing. I think the reason why he hasn't made it an issue is because there is no difference between him and the other Democratic candidates. I also don't think that Hillary's strength among women in some states has much to do with their respective positions on reproductive rights.

    I think you make a good point, however, when you say that Obama's position on reproductive rights will be helpful in attracting HRC supporters who might be tempted to vote for McCain.

  •  You're wrong. Abortion is an extremely divisive (6+ / 0-)

    issue in this country.  Obama is trying to unite people not divide them.  People who support reproductive rights approach it from protecting the woman.  People who support banning abortion are trying to protect the unborn baby.  Obama wants these people to come together by focusing on what they both agree on--protecting the sanctity of life, no matter the age.  It is enough that he is 100% pro-choice.  Leave it alone.

    Disclaimer: I'm a pro-choice woman.

    •  This won't work... (5+ / 0-)

      ...because opposition to abortion is too rooted in the desire to control and oppress women, and too little rooted in concern for the unborn, to find common ground as you've described.  This illustrates the limits of Obama's rationalist project of finding common ground: on some issues it's not possible, because one side acts in bad faith.

      -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

      by Rich in PA on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:31:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Give people the respect to believe why they (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Junah

        support their position.  That is why YOU think they are against reproductive rights.  I agree that they do not consider the body of the woman.  But this is part of the problem with having a dialogue about abortion in this country.  Pro-choice people are only thinking about the woman.  Pro-life people are only thinking about the baby.  We need to think about both, which is what Roe v. Wade does.  We have to have a compromise, which is why abortions are legal in the first trimester, and more questionable after that.

        P.S. When you constantly accuse someone who disagrees with you as acting bad faith, they're not the ones who are acting in bad faith.  While those who bomb abortion clinics are certainly reprehensible, they by no means represent the pro-life movement.

        •  Soemhow I have issues withyour description (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          natalie902

          as being pro-choice--especially when you use anti-choice talking points against pro-choicers.  I have never met a pro-choice woman who didn't acknowledge that there are two lives involved--one which is already here  and independent (the WOMAN), and one potential human being (the fetus--it's not a baby till it's born; typical anti-choice terminology, BTW).

          And I don't claim most anti-choice organizations--to which lots of the soft non-violent anti-choicers contribute and which they support passively-- are anti-reproductive rights. I state it as a fact. I checked the websites of every last anti-choice organization I could locate online--several hundred sites, BTW--and the only ones which didn't want to born  "abortifacient" contraception  (which include the Pill, Plan B and IUD--the most reliable methods of birth control, leaving women with condoms and the diophragms which are much less reliable) were the Natl. RIght to Life Committee (which has no position) and James Dobson (who was iffy on the Pill).  ALmost every other one wanted abortifacient methods banned as much as abortion. SOme wanted all methods banned, period. ANd none backed copmrpehensive sex education which included telling students about birth control and STD prevention.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:20:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  didn't you hear him? (0+ / 0-)

        I was surprised that there is indeed "common ground" which is spend the time, energy, passion and money used to fight for pro-life/pro-choice and use it for education, etc. to make sure there is no or little need for abortion.

        See...common ground, in one of the most divisve things around.

    •  Believe me, having cooperated with.... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      irishwitch, Hedwig, milkbone, natalie902

      ...15 others to set up the nation's first non-profit abortion clinic in 1973 and been involved in the reproductive rights fight for the 35 years since then, you will NEVER unite those who support banning abortion with those who want women to have this option. Never.

      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

      by Meteor Blades on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:38:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's some great optimism you've got going (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sun dog

        there.  While I don't think the crazies are ever going to support reproductive rights, those aren't the people who can be reached anyway.  I've volunteered at abortion clinics escorting women past protesters since I was 15.  I don't expect those people to come around having talked to them, but they do not represent the majority of pro-lifers in this country.  I think you do a sad disservice to those who disagree with you if you think fundamentalists are representative of their positions.

        •  Educated pessimism = Realism (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades, natalie902

          I also do not believe that dedicated pro-life groups are going to come to the table, and that it's a waste of time to try to work through them. Working around them and appealing directly to people is the way to go, because most people are far more nuanced in their views than the groups that claim to support them -- that's the utility of the label, it suggests commonality where it doesn't really exist.  

          It's not about caring more or less for the woman or the baby, it's about whether you are going to force women to bear children they don't want, or under what circumstances (e.g., beyond what gestational date).  

        •  The majority of "pro-lifers" in this country ... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          irishwitch, natalie902

          ...seek to BAN abortion. It is true that some are more extreme, like those who bombed our clinic (or, being stupid, the garage next door). But their goal is to ban abortion. They will accept a middle ground only as a way station on the road to that goal, a road down which they have gone far with three decades worth of nibbles at Roe v. Wade, nibbles that now account for very big accumulated bites. I do not plan to make nice with people who, whatever their tone of voice, play hardball politics in this matter that messes with women's health and lives.  

          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

          by Meteor Blades on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:11:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here is the problem (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Sun dog, The Distillery

            Or as I perceive it:  Many people want to be known as pro-life even though, when you ask them one question at a time, their responses are much closer to pro-choice answers.  They don't want the pro-choice label because then, they don't have warm and fuzzy feelings about protecting babies, etc.

            That means the organized infrastructure of pro-life groups, which hold much more extreme views, have the tacit approval of people who don't even necessarily agree with them.  So when you say "the average pro-lifer" wants this or that -- you are potentially alienating even people who don't hold such extreme views.  It's important to focus on pro-life organizations for that reason, and distinguish them from individuals who are more open to debate.

            •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              The Distillery

              A majority of people, if you get into it, reveal themselves to be anti-abortion but pro-choice.  I had that conversation with my Catholic mother many years ago.  

              It's easy to just say, "I'm pro-life."  The involved ones use a huge number of soft supporters to bolster their numbers.  But when you really have the debate, they don't really hold up as people who want to ban abortion.  

              "Do you think a girl who is raped should be forced to carry to term?"  

              Unless they answer yes to that and mean it, they're pro-choice.  

              The society described by saying yes to that and meaning it is way the hell beyond anything almost any American would be willing to live with.  

              People just aren't thinking it through.  

              McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

              by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:34:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, they are NOT pro-choice. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                natalie902

                Allowing an exception for rape is merely a way of saying they're not wholely unsympathetic to her plight--they don't want to look heartless, which they do if they condemn a woman to bear her rapist's child. They know just how self-righteous that makes them sound, how smug and unsympathetic.

                And I HAVE thought it through. SO have most of us whoa re pro-0chocie.

                The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                by irishwitch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:10:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My point is (0+ / 0-)

                  There is no way to ban abortion except for rape.  Does a woman bring a note from her rapist?  Do we need a quick conviction before it's too late for an abortion?  Do we get a lot of people getting accused of rape because someone really doesn't want a baby.

                  My point is that people can't have it both ways.  They can't say they are anti-choice except for certain cases.  The fact is, it's pretty much impossible to outlaw abortion without completely trouncing the Constitution and a free society.  

                  So, the alternative even for someone who wants to feel above it all is to have safe abortions available and make sure that the programs that help prevent unwanted pregnancy get advanced.  

                  McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

                  by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:55:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually quite a few lawyers feel (0+ / 0-)

                    that Roe is based on shaky legal grounds, so it depends on how you interpret the constitution.  Roe hinges on a right to bodily privacy and is based on Griswold v. Conn. which saw a penumbra or shadow of privacy implied int he 4th amendment--if they can't go after your house without a proper warrant, they should have even fewer right to control your body.  The strict constitutionalists on the SCOTUS disagree.  Get grishakagal going on this one, or read some of the anti-choice legal eagles opinions on it. I disagree with them, natch.

                    And it is perfectly possible to allow exceptions for extreme cases--and you are right about just how difficult it would be to obtain an abortion for rape if all else were banned. You'd have to prove you reported it (many rapes aren't reported; most of the calls we got at the crisis center were form women who didn't report). And then what would the standard be? Would reporting be enough?  Would you h ave to have someone arrested and charged?  The reason they'd allow the exception is simply that this would, in their eyes, an extreme and rare case--and thus few in numbers--which would allow the woman to come before the fetus.  They also know most Americans wouldn't buy into banning for rape--that's what screwed the ban in SD.
                    Unfortuantely while you'd think they'd want contraception and info available, they don't. Thay also want to ban all "abortifacient" methods (the Pill, IUD, Depo shots, Plan B) so their claim to push rpevention is BS--anti-chocie Dems killed a bill that owuld ahve provided funding for sex comrpehensive sex and contracpetives becasue it owudl encourage sexual activity and fund aboritfacient methods!

                    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                    by irishwitch on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:02:08 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Oh and btw (0+ / 0-)

                  I wasn't saying pro-choice people hadn't thought this through.  

                  I realize why they don't want to say they believe in an exemption for rape.  It's because they don't want to appear heartless.  But what it exposes if you follow through with the arguments from there is that being anti-choice is, at its core, heartless.  

                  McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

                  by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:07:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Respectfully, I do not agree. What if you ... (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Sun dog

                ...ask them:

                Do you think a woman should have to wait 24 hours after she comes to a clinic to obtain an abortion?

                Do you think a woman should be required to view photographs of the stages of development of a fetus before having an abortion?

                Do you think medical procedures for poor women should be covered by Medicaid? Do you include abortion in that coverage?

                Do you think 15-year-old girls should be required to get their parents' permission before obtaining an abortion?

                Do you think a woman who wants an abortion for economic reasons should be denied this option?

                Do you think the husband (or boyfriend) should have a legal say over whether his wife (or girlfriend) has an abortion?

                Their answers to those questions determine for me whether they are pro-choice.

                I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                by Meteor Blades on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:26:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I have different standards than those folks too (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Meteor Blades

                  I'm just talking about a way of getting through the fog.  A way of thinking about it where they can realize that they may be anti-abortion for themselves but that it really doesn't make sense to try to legislate that for others.  

                  You're talking more about pro-choice as a badge.  I'm talking about the fact that the anti-choice people have done a better job of getting big numbers of people to think that's the side of the fence they are on.

                  McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

                  by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:59:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not talking about pro-choice as a badge ... (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Bill W, Sun dog

                    ...I understand that you're trying to break through to the other side, and I appreciate that. It's an approach that sometimes works. But only sometimes. And my concern is that every nibble into reproductive rights protection KILLS women. So, when I hear talk about uniting with these folks, what that says to me is not so much trying to pry them out of their false consciousness about their real views but rather reaching some kind of compromise. The trouble is, compromise with those who would ban abortion is deadly.

                    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                    by Meteor Blades on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:36:20 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Fuck compromise (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Meteor Blades

                      There's no compromising here, not from me.

                      Again, I'm not talking about addressing the hardcore politico anti-choice people.  I'm talking about taking them out at the knees.

                      They have been able to push people around not because of their street protests and intimidation.  That stuff has probably cost them more than it's gained.  They have had success because of the huge numbers of people who think of themselves as 'pro-life.'

                      I'm talking about taking the public dialogue to the point that those masses of people realize which side they're actually on.  We win that argument and the nutjobs are relegated to a noisy little fringe instead of part of a coalition that gets insane Republicans elected president.  

                      McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

                      by Sun dog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:32:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Many "pro-lioer" types (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          natalie902

          especially in the South ARE fundamentalist Christians.  And many also support banning "abortifacient" contraception, like the Pill, Plan B and IUD. I actually did a search of anti-choice groups online and I can tell you that the vast majority are also anti-contraception, which fits the "Quiverfull" fundy stereotype. I also live int he South, and I doubt that any of the faces we see every time there's an anti-choice demo belong to non-fundies. And while I have escorted rape victims past the screaming hordes, I have also talked to many anti-choicers over the years--and not one held that position for anything but religious rrasons.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:08:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This is one of the key reasons... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, natalie902, mtundu

    ...some Clinton supporters worry that Obama is soft on Democratic issues. (I'm one of them, just so you don't think I am ascribing this to some nameless hordes.)   The fact that they're hot-button "culture war" questions doesn't mean they should be relegated or soft-pedaled, any more than you would relegate or soft-pedal civil rights because many people are racist.  

    Just as a strategic point, Republicans will call him a liberal anyway...so he might as well be one, on issues of historical importance to Democrats.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:29:17 PM PDT

  •  I don't think you get elected (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    fayea

    being more pro-abortion than the other candidate.

    Remember it was the Clintons who came up with "safe legal and rare" which is bullshit cause it's never going to be rare.

    •  re: Gator1980's comment (0+ / 0-)

      "pro-abortion"? There is no such thing as a "pro-abortion" stance. There is a pro-choice stance.

      Polls have shown that many women think that John McCain is actually "moderate" and "pro-choice" when it comes to reproductive rights. We need to bring this issue up. It is so important, although sadly many here on DKos don't give a sh*t about it. Reproductive Rights are about making sure that 1/2 of the population has equal social, economic, physical, etc. rights.

  •  What? (0+ / 0-)

    "Pandering to the middle and ceding women’s issues to Clinton is a big mistake for general election success" I didn't know that Clinton was going to be in the general election. I don't think Senator Obama is hiding from his record.

  •  I guessed right on your (0+ / 0-)

    age, gender (obvious, because you asked), and education.

    I wonder how many folks who find it necessary to equate womens' rights with abortion have ever been in the position of seeking an abortion.

    Abortion is a hot-button topic that falls under the umbrella of womens' rights.  But if your issue is womens' rights, then talk about womens' rights.  Or better yet, talk about equal rights for women.  The fact is, Roe v Wade is as much about fetal rights as it is about womens' rights anyway.  

    Not too many people are going to argue about a platform that supports women's equality; but all the crazies will come out to fight on one side or the other about an issue that will very likely have no impact on their lives whatsoever.  Most women either never seek an abortion or would never be in the position where they would want an abortion.  Those fighting to protect the right end up fighting for the women who use birth control as reproduction - and, yes, there are women who do that as a matter of course.

    BEsides, Obama's only real influence on this issue as President would be his appointment of Justices or the veto power on anything that the Democratic Congress would pass.

    Why do they hate our freedom?

    by Shesk on Mon May 12, 2008 at 12:43:33 PM PDT

    •  re: Shesk's erroneous comment (0+ / 0-)

      Most women either never seek an abortion or would never be in the position where they would want an abortion.

      You could not be more wrong on that above statement. Here are some REAL FACTS about this issue from the Guttmacher Institute:

      1. Nearly half of all pregnancies to American women are unintended; four in 10 of these end in abortion.
      1. About half of American women have experienced an unintended pregnancy, and at current rates more than one-third (35%) will have had an abortion by age 45.
      1. Each year, about two out of every 100 women aged 15–44 have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion.
      1. Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.
      1. About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.

      Why Birth Control alone is not enough:

      1. Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant.

      So you really think that abortion really doesn't affect many women? Get real.

      •  NOT erroneous (0+ / 0-)

        I said that most women never seek an abortion or find themselves seeking an abortion.

        Re:  Item #1:  40% of 50% = 25%, and that's assuming that the 4 in 10 are not the same women, which, based on #3, is pretty unlikley to be the case.

        Re: Item #2: An unintended pregnancy does not equal an unwanted pregnancy.  Also, again, these stats do not likely account for the fact that many of the same women get abortions over and over again, artificially raising the rate of incidence.

        This data is based on anecdotal evidence, cleverly presented; you can believe what you want to believe.  I think abortion affects a small percentage of women a lot of the time.

        Why do they hate our freedom?

        by Shesk on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:32:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think Obama's being smart (0+ / 0-)

    It's all about knowing your audience, and on such a divisive controversial issue, you don't go putting it as your main issue. Criticizing McCain's flip flopping to a strong anti abortion position (not even when the life of the mother is in danger) will help him get support from feminists who voted for Clinton.

    But it's a simple yes or no question and doesn't need to be played up like this.

  •  I haven't seen Clinton talking up a storm (0+ / 0-)

    about reproductive rights lately either, in IN, NC, KY and WV.  I am sure the topic is going to come up in the GE, particuarly since McCain has once again changed his tune and is now on record as supporting the R party platform, which, to remind you, is that abortion should never be legal even in cases of rape or incest or to protect the health of the pregnant woman.

    You got that? Obama is sound on reproductive rights.  Kate Michaelman would not have endorsed him if he weren't. I do think he needs to find a more articulate way to discuss it, so that when it does come up in the GE (remember John Kerry debate questions), he conveys strong support.  

    How, tactically, to make sure that message is best delivered is something we can disagree about, but not raising it in the primaries is not a sign that he doesn't care about it, just that it does not suggest any meaningful differences between him and Clinton.  

    •  Yo, it IS the GE! (0+ / 0-)

      This is definitely going to come up, and even though McCain is wrong on this issue, I just think Obama might score some points by recognizing how important abortion rights are to a lot of people.

      I agree that it is a question of tactics, and I'm not saying that Obama should take out ads or anything, but relatively soon I bet he will be much more vocal about women's rights in general.

      It's important to save the frog.

      by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 01:14:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No problem with you criticizing Obama. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mtundu

    I do it on health care, so it's fine that you do it on choice. It's not an exception to, but an expression of, our support for the candidate. We want him to win, we want him to do great, and in acting towards that purpose we offer our advice.

    And I do think being more aggressive on reproductive choice would be a great way to pull back in disaffected Hillary Clinton voters. Of course it's not like Obama has really been hiding from this issue, either. His response on how he would feel if his daughters had abortions was very strong, and I think the minor furor that caused missed the point.

    He may actually be the most unequivocally pro-choice Democratic nominee in twenty years. (No safe, legal and rare like Clinton; no pro-life history like Gore; no effort to distinguish his personal view from his policy perspective like Kerry).

  •  Hey look! My diary's been quoted! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Nova Land

    Yay! I'm somebody!

    Ahem, Sorry.  On a more substantive note, I think the reason Obama has not campaigned on abortion more aggressively is precisely because there is no difference between himself and Hillary on the issue.  The only reason he would bring it up at this juncture would be to distort Hillary's record, as she did his in NH.  Otherwise, he'd be arguing with nobody.

    I think you will see his relative silence on the issue change dramatically when the general election heats up.  People still generally believe that Roe v. Wade should be upheld, and Obama's going to beat McCain over the head with that mercilessly.

    •  I think that you are probably right (0+ / 0-)

      that there was little point campaigning on the issue in the primary season.  I've suggested two potential reasons above, but yours (that the positions are so similar) is probably also a part of it.

      The way things are going, though, it seems like general election time right now.  I wasn't suggesting that Obama campaign on this against Clinton (I think he's about done with that anyway), just that by making some kind of statement, even a subtle one, he might be able to win over some of HRC's supporters who could join his ranks earlier rather than later.

      Yours was a good diary, and the talking points were definitely quoteworthy.

      It's important to save the frog.

      by mtundu on Mon May 12, 2008 at 02:45:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Permalink | 61 comments