Daily Kos

Hillary Supporters: What About FL & MI?

Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:17:41 PM PDT

Cross-posted at Democrashield

Now, there are a lot of Hillary supporters out there calling the exclusion of Florida and Michigan from the Democratic primary "disenfranchisement."  These Hillary supporters are saying they won’t vote for Barack Obama because he’s disenfranchising millions of voters.  They say their opposition has nothing to do with what’s best for Hillary Clinton, that they're taking a principled stand against voter disenfranchisement.  

Alright, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.  Let’s say you are taking a principled stand against voter disenfranchisement.  Let’s say this has nothing to do with your support for Hillary.  Then I have some questions for you, like...

Where were you when the rules were being set?

The rules governing the primary were set by the Democratic National Committee nearly in August of 2006.  Those rules said only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada could vote before February 5th; any state that voted before then would be stripped of their delegation.  

Thus, the potential for millions of Democratic voters to be disenfranchised was written into the 2008 primary back in '06.

So, where were you guys then? If voter disenfranchisement is such a big issue to you, why weren’t you opposing the proposed rules back then? Why weren't you doing anything back when this could have made a difference?  

That brings us to...

Where were you when the states were rescheduling their primaries?

It was well known that any state holding a primary before February 5th would be stripped of its delegation.  Yet, knowing this, the governments of Michigan and Florida went ahead and voted to break the rules.  By changing the dates of their primaries, MI and FL’s governments disenfranchised their own voters.

So where were you guys then? Why weren’t you opposing the proposals to reschedule those states’ primaries? If this is about taking a principled stand against voter disenfranchisement, why didn’t you take action months ago when this all started?

Also,

What about Terry?

In 2004, Michigan wanted to break that year's rules and hold their primary early. At the time, the Chairman of the DNC threatened to strip MI of their delegation if they went through with their plan. This is from the DNC Chairman’s book:

"You won't deny us seats at the convention," [Michigan Senator Carl Levin] said.

"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."

[Emphasis Added]

The DNC Chairman in 2004 was Terry McAuliffe.  Where’s McAuliffe now?

He’s the chairman of Hillary Clinton’s Presidential campaign.  

If Hillary is taking a principled stand against voter disenfranchisement, why is McAuliffe the chair of her campaign?  Why hasn’t she fired him for his pro-disenfranchisement views?  Why haven’t you, her supporters, demanded McAuliffe be fired from the campaign? Where's the consistency?
 
If it’s disenfranchisement now, it would have been disenfranchisement then.  If you can’t support Obama because he’s not doing enough about voter disenfranchisement, then how can you support Hillary after she appointed pro-disenfranchisement McAuliffe to her campaign?

That brings us to...

What about Jenny?

Jennifer Granholm is the Governor of Michigan.  She signed the law that moved Michigan’s primary before February 5th.  With a stroke of her pen, Granholm disenfranchised millions of MI voters; had she acted differently back then, millions of Michigan voters wouldn’t be disenfranchised.

Granholm is also a Hillary supporter.  If this issue is about taking a principled stand against voter disenfranchisement, why hasn’t Hillary rejected and denounced Granholm? Why haven’t you all called on her to do so? Why have you allowed Hillary to benefit from the support of someone who single-handedly disenfranchised millions of voters?  

Misplaced Anger

A lot of you are blaming Barack Obama for this situation.  But how? Obama didn’t set the rules.  Obama isn't in charge of enforce the rules.  Obama didn’t move Michigan and Florida’s primaries up.  Obama had nothing to do with these decisions.  He might be benefiting from the situation, but he’s not responsible for it.

If you’re going to place blame, blame the DNC.  Blame Howard Dean.  Blame Jennifer Granholm and Charlie Crist.  Blame MI and FL’s legislatures.  There are dozens of people you can blame for this situation, but Obama isn't one of them.  

So let's not delude ourselves into thinking he's somehow responsible for this mess that we're in.  And while we're not deluding ourselves...
   
Stop the Spin

Let’s be honest. The fight over Michigan and Florida isn’t about taking a stand against voter disenfranchisement.  It never was. This is a political ploy by the Clinton campaign to get more delegates.  Want proof? When asked why she didn’t take her name off of MI’s ballot, even though every other candidate did so, Clinton said it was because Michigan "is not going to count for anything."

That’s right— Hillary Clinton didn’t take her name off of MI’s ballot because she said MI wouldn’t matter. She accepted and acknowledged that MI wouldn’t play a role in the nominating process because they broke the rules.

Want more proof? Here's a statement from the Hillary campaign, released September 1, 2007:

"We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process.  And we believe the DNC’s rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role.  Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."  

It was only after Obama started winning that Clinton made FL and MI an issue. This was clearly a political decision. Now, there’s nothing wrong with making political decisions—all politicians make political decisions.  But let’s stop pretending this is about voter disenfranchisement, because it’s not— it’s about giving Hillary a better shot at the nomination.  

The very day Clinton sent a letter to Obama criticizing him for not doing more to seat MI and FL, she rejected a plan to seat MI’s delegation.  Why? Because it wasn’t politically advantageous enough for her.  This isn’t about giving MI or FL a voice— it’s about whatever works best for Hillary Clinton.

It's About Integrity, Stupid!

So you say you can’t vote for Barack Obama because he’s disenfranchising millions of voters (even though he’s not directly responsible for that).

Well, then I say I can't vote for Hillary Clinton because of her lack of integrity.

The DNC makes the rules for the primaries. You might not like the rules— I certainly don’t, I think Iowa and New Hampshire have too much influence and I support overhauling the entire primary system— but you have to follow them.  That’s the price of trying to be the Democratic nominee— you have to follow the Democratic Party’s rules.

We just had eight years of a President who freely broke the rules.  We spent eight years suffering under a President who ignored any rule he didn’t like. Yet now we have Democrats supporting a Democratic candidate who’s also trying to break the rules when it's convenient to do so.

That doesn’t bode well for a Hillary Clinton administration— America is a nation of rules, and Clinton’s attempt to break the rules for the sake of politics speaks volumes about her lack of integrity.

So you might not like Obama.  You might not want to vote for him.  That's your decision to make, and you have the right to make it.  But don't feed us this garbage about Barack Obama "disenfranchising" Michigan and Florida, because that's nothing but spin.  And for people who are supposed to be part of the reality-based community, I expect better from you.

Tags: 2008, Candidates, Campaigns, Democrats, Primaries, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Florida, Michigan, Spin, Terry McAuliffe, Jennifer Granholm (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 63 comments

  •  Well-argued and written. Can you Cross-post at (6+ / 0-)

    myDD?  They need some of this logical reasoning and presentation over there.  Thanks for the clear points!  

  •  Simply Brilliant (6+ / 0-)

    Tipped & Rec'd

    "the Republican brand is in the trash can...if we were dog food, they would take us off the shelf." Rep. Tom Davis (R)

    by Ex Con on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:23:42 PM PDT

  •  A good attempt... (5+ / 0-)

    at convincing Clinton supporters to see the light.  Unfortunately, there are  deeper, irrational reasons why Clintonites won't listen to reason, viz., the inability of Clinton to concede in the light of facts that say she can't win.

  •  Markos on August 23, 2007 (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AZGoob, Bandaloo, Bush B Gone, cognition

       Go Michigan!
       by kos
       Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 09:44:13 AM PDT

       The Michigan Senate passed yesterday a bill moving up its primaries to Jan. 15, getting one step closer to really screwing Iowa. Too bad state Democrats are standing in the way.
       . . .
       And what about DNC threats to not seat Florida and Michigan delegates? Not going to happen, as Jerome says.

       Michigan and Florida have courageously decided to send more than a message to New Hampshire and Iowa, that they don't own the primary calendar. In response, the DNC is threatening those two states with stripping of their delegates:

       "You are going to see big signs on the floor of the Democratic Convention that say `Florida' and `Michigan' and you are going to see rows of empty seats beneath them," one DNC member warned.
       What stupidity.  What kind of statement would that send to the swing states of Florida and Michigan for the general contest? I don't care what sort of threats the DNC makes, they are empty. Florida is going to be the big enchilada for the 2008 Democratic nomination. All their delegates will count. The DNC rules committee, and whatever they fancy their power to be, is irrelevant and will not be able to do anything, other than agree that they created this situation with their timidity and lack of providing a substantive solution to the calendar problem.
       Amen.

    Yes, "screwing Iowa" was a great idea when it looked like Obama wasn't going to win Iowa. Later, it turned out to be horrible that Michigan and Florida moved up, because Clinton was way ahead of Obama there.

    I should add that all Democrats should vote for our nominee regardless of their opinions on seating MI and FL delegates. The Supreme Court hangs in the balance. I thought Obama was stupid to block re-votes in those states, which would have cemented his popular vote lead over Clinton, but that won't prevent me from voting for him in November.

    John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."

    by desmoinesdem on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:26:24 PM PDT

    •  yeah, why? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      penguins4peace

      Why did the Obama campaign block the revote? Perhaps they didn't block it ? Did they? surely its was in their interest to support it?

      Can anyone explain this to me?
      ( posted by an (ignorant) English Obama freakette)

      •  He didn't block revotes... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, trivium, appletree, cognition

        Michigan had a law that would not allow them to have a primary. Florida could not afford a primary.

        If Hillary cared so much about us, then why wouldn't she take the compromise deal that Obama agreed to recently? The only thing I can see is that she refused to allow the 44% uncommitted to be given to Obama.

        So..she wants to disenfranchise those 44%?

        Wow..maybe this is all Hillary's fault after all...

    •  Awesome catch!!! (0+ / 0-)

      It's sad how so many Obama supporters here are just as blindsighted as the Hillary supporters they criticize at Hillaryis44 (see some of the posts at the top of this diary for examples).

      Amazingly, people here simultaneously criticize Hillary for being too pro-DNC, yet these same people rush to embrace the arbitrary DNC-set rules as long as it favors their candidate.  I'd bet quite a bit that if Obama had won those same states, and HIllary was slightly ahead, they'd be screaming for the voters of those two states to not be disenfranchised.

      Supporters of both sides (Obama and Clinton) are acting like such whining babies it's a pretty sad state for the party.

      •  I will honestly say, as new as I am here there (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        CocoaLove, rudewarrior, cdnblaze

        are 3 to 4 things kos has advocated that I thought where flat out wrong. I am new enough that I didn't know he supported the MI and FL move, and I will add that to the list of disagreements.

        I honestly don't know how I would feel if the situation was reversed, well I guess I know how I would feel, but I don't know if my thinking would be different or not irt FL and MI. I THINK I would be pretty angry at those States for moving up, I think that is where my frustration would be aimed.

        I do know that most actual MI and FL voters I have spoken to personally are pretty meh about the whole situation, and I suspect the only thing keeping this in the news at all is Clinton's daily whinge about it.

        I am from MN and if you think our caucuses are undemocratic I have a lake to introduce you to.

        by edgeways on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:49:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think it's a question of embracing the (5+ / 0-)

        arbitrary DNC-set rules.  The problem is that the rules were known before the primary began and the candidates chose their strategies based on those rules.  You can't change the rules mid-season and expect those adversely affected not to resist.  It isn't fair and would cause chaos in future elections.  If future candidates knew the rules could arbitrarily be changed mid-season, what would they do at the beginning of the season to ensure a victory won fair and square wouldn't be snatched away?  Kill (literally) their opponents so they would be the last one standing?

        One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. - Plato

        by Hanging Up My Tusks on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:56:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  All rules are arbitrary in after you break them. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        penguins4peace

        If your problem is that you don't like the rule, then you knew about the rule. Your electeds should have fought the issue out before the primary. Your mistake in choosing them. No one else's.

    •  I'd like to see a credible link (8+ / 0-)

      that says Obama actively blocked revotes. The most I heard was he raised some concerns about processes that he thought where flawed. Which is a tad different.

      I am from MN and if you think our caucuses are undemocratic I have a lake to introduce you to.

      by edgeways on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:42:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Interested quote from Markos (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      highacidity

      I'll give you that.

      But your claim that Obama blocked the re-votes is simply false.. and you should retract that statement

  •  Who're these voters you're speaking of? (8+ / 0-)

    As a former supporter of Sen. Clinton, I can assure you that, while I am livid that the party disenfranchised voters in MI and FL in order to allow SC, NH, and IA retain its tourism dollars, I certainly would never have thought to make it an issue in the upcoming GE.  I'm now happily supporting (as of last week) Sen Obama and look forward  to a Democratic victory in the Fall.

    •  Sadly (0+ / 0-)

      a small part of me wants to see McCain win in November just to slap both sides of the Clinton/Obama divide around, both campaigns are acting like whining babies, both sides are clinging to arbitrary rules like a temper-tantrum throwing lawyer.

      The idea is that is McCain wins, the Democratic party can finally rid itself if these ridiculous primary/caucus rules of a pretty damn arbitrary process, and come up with a better way to promote a candidate with the will of the party that doesn't resort to destruction of party unity.

      The question is whether it's better to lose 4 years, in order to reshape things much for the better in the future.

      •  We don't have 4 years to lose (5+ / 0-)

        The environment, the economy, our military all hang in the balance and there is absolutely zero chance that John McCain will do one thing different than Bush has done for the last eight years.

        We must prevail in November, I will vote for the Democratic nominee, period.

      •  NO! (in case you were looking for an answer). (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity, rudewarrior

        I question whether we can afford another 9 months.

        the third eye does not weep. it knows. Political compass: -9.75 / -8.72

        by mijita on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:55:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What exactly is arbitrary about the rules (0+ / 0-)

        as laid down? If you are seeking something more authoritarian I'm not sure I'd be happy with that. The rules where laid down and agreed to, right? No one went into this ignorant of what had to happen (except perhaps Penn). The only reason we are hear is that we had two strong candidates with two committed bases. You want things neat and tidy like the Republicans have? I think their system sucks ass. I think the winner take all system of the EC is horrible. THAT is what we need to fight against, not a process that at least tries to accurately gauge proportional support.

        You don't want whining? Why are you whining in your posts then?

        I am from MN and if you think our caucuses are undemocratic I have a lake to introduce you to.

        by edgeways on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:01:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The DNC also had a rule ... (5+ / 0-)

    ... that allowed the Michigan and Florida primaries to still count if the Democrats could not, with a good faith effort, stop the changed primary date.

    Of course, Governor Jennifer Granholm not only failed to make a good faith effort to stop the changed primary date -- she signed it into law!

    Another flouting of the rules.  

    Then, there was Harold Ickes, who, as a member of the DNC, voted to penalize Michigan and Florida. The fact that the Clinton campaign chose him as their first spokesperson on the issue was a horrible mistake. The hypocrisy was too raw.

    The Clinton campaign needed a non-McAuliffe, Non-Ickes, Non-Hillary surrogate with some national cred to make these arguments. Instead, they went the hypocrisy route and lost the high ground forever.  

     

    "Obama, Obama, I love ya, Obama; you're only November away" -- cute ginger kid

    by Tortmaster on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:41:50 PM PDT

  •  I just want some resolution of the issue (0+ / 0-)

    that makes all parties happy.

    Seat Florida as is & do some sort of compromise with delegates in Michigan.  Can't count popular vote b/c Obama was not on the ballot.  But seat their delegations for sure.

    I hope the Obama team seizes the opportunity to put the issue to bed.

    I know lots of people aren't happy about the situation. I am torn - I think it is bullshit that Iowa & NH get all that attention & power, but I am somewhat of a stickler for the rules.  It would be best to deal with the issue.

    John McCain doesn't want healthy children.

    by aimeeinkc on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:43:13 PM PDT

    •  HRC supporters in MI (4+ / 0-)

      came out  last week with a compromise that split the delegation 65 HRC/55 BHO and kept the SD's as is (mostly HRC supporters), HRC shoot down the proposal in a "challange" to BHO that contained grammatical errors by the way

      HRC's campaign doesn't want a resolution b/c as long as MI&FL delegate allocation  are unknown they could keep spinning that they have a chance, the very second a resolution is reached the MSM will input the numbers in their snazzy graphics and reiterate that HRC doesn't have a chance

      At this point MI & FL are the mythical key to obtain the nomination, somehow the there are so many delegates and votes there that  it would be possible for HRC to go over the top in pledge delegates AND popular vote and secure the nomination if only BHO and the DNC do what it is only fair to sit both delegations in the only fair way: as is.

      You could see the effects lately, every few hours diaries pop up with titles such as HRC won, HRC the math, HRC road to the nomination, with a single theme in a fair system (winner, take all, electoral college, real democrats votes, etc.) when FL and MI are added HRC already won the nomination.

      By delegitimizing the process  all they are doing is setting up their supporters for massive disappointment and making more difficult a reconciliation around the nominee.

      "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi

      by IamTheJudge on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:13:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Second reason Clinton won't settle (0+ / 0-)

        is that if the two states reach settlements, then she can't go to the Credentials Committee in Denver, and hold the campaign open until she does, and make a wild and ugly scene, all on the excuse that she is fighting as promised the disenfranchisement etc etc. It is in her interest not to settle either one, and certainly her supporters in FLA are working to make that not happen, demanding that the rule be set aside as to them, and they go forward as if no rule had ever existed, except that HRC ran  what were called closed fundraisers there before the primary, and was called on it at the time. It also supports her move of the "majority of pledged delegates" goalpost to 2029 since it is now clear that by May 20, the majority of the pledged who are not affected by the rule will be with O.  

        I thought, though that the MI proposed compromise was 69-59.  

  •  What about this (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan, rudewarrior

    Since the Clinton campaign is totally up front about two things--the superdelegates will decide this thing; pledged delegates are free to vote for whomever they want--it's rather late in the day for them to jump on the pure democracy bandwagon.

    "Wear the eye patch, Bret. Wear the funky, funky eye patch".

    by ClaudiusTheGod on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:44:10 PM PDT

  •  Terrific diary (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan

    Awesome work.  I'm now an Obama guy, started out for Edwards but this just wasn't his year.  And while I would prefer, as an Obama guy, to not have any voting in Florida or Michigan, if they came up with a reasonable plan to vote I'd have to support it on principle.

    That said, right now, they're in the stew they made for themselves, and the only reason Clintonistas are so horny to get the votes to count is that it'd help them.

    Screw them- not the Clintonistas, but the states.  They got themselves into the mess, and I have little or no sympathy for them.

  •  The Myth of the Popular vote, Fl and MI (0+ / 0-)

    On this topic, see "Hillary and the Genie Do Florida and Michigan: A play in one very short act"   http://msa4.wordpress.com

  •  No one said OBAMA is disenfranchising (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    penguins4peace

    Speaking of direct responsibility, it is the DNC thus far that has been disenfranchising these voters. Obama and his supporters have simply been willing to turn a passive, dismissive eye to the disenfranchisement. I look forward to the DNC doing the right thing by making the best out of the bad situation created by the Republican controlled legislatures of Florida and Michigan by arranging the results to be accepted as is.  Hell, I even support Obama getting the "unspecified" vote in Michigan, even though he took himself off the ballot for political gain. Just count the votes.

    I want to take a moment to address another major distortion commonly made here which relates to the overall tone of the original poster's rant. The original poster spends a great deal of time grinding an axe to reinforce the image of Clinton as "playing with the rules," or "trying to change the rules mid game."  Well, "playing by the rules" is an admirable sentiment, no doubt. I just wish you folks would be a tad more consistent with it. The ability to challenge controversies and conflicts over seating of delegates for primaries made available at the May 31st meeting?  Guess what?  That meeting, and the right to raise challenges is part of the process.  It's part of the rules.  So STFU, Okay?  Just sit down and let the process proceed at the grown ups table.

    Another one of the "rules" as understood going into the primary season is how superdelegates work.  Namely that they are free to vote for WHOEVER they want, and that they are free to change their mind ANYTIME up through to the final ballot at the convention. Even if they've made an endorsement.  That flexibility is the beauty of the superdelegate concept, the ability to respond to changing circumstances between spring and August.  Any claim that they do not have such rights, that the superdelegates are "bound to the 'popular will'" are fraudulent, and any attempt to pressure superdelegates, through threats or media pressure, or accusations of racism, etc, is an attempt to rewrite the rules, midcourse. This sort of attempt at rewriting has been PANDEMIC since February, where attempts were made to spin 10 admittedly extraordinarily good days for Obama into some sort of imagined air of inevitability in order to pressure superdelegates into forfeiting their right to reserve independent judgement.  

    In summary, standing up for "the rules" is generally good practice.  But when it's so inconsistent, it comes off as a little disingeneous.  
    I anxiously await your displaying your integrity by rejecting the attempts by the Obama compaign and Obama supporters to "change the rules" by challenging the role and rights of superdelegates in the middle of the election. Don't get offended, though, if I don't hold my breath while I'm waiting.

    •  I did a search on "Hillary Hub" ... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ssgbryan, penguins4peace

      ... some time ago looking for when HRC first brought up the issue of Michigan and Florida. She did not ask for a re-vote until the middle of MARCH 2008!

      So, canuckistani78, when you write that "Obama and his supporters have simply been willing to turn a passive, dismissive eye to the disenfranchisement," then I have to laugh.

      Obama didn't need to win Michigan or Florida, Clinton did. But, she was the one who waited until the middle of March to do anything about it! Who was turning the "passive, dismissive eye," eh?

      Oh, yes, on that same subject, didn't HRC tell a New Hampshire radio station that Michigan WOULD NOT COUNT! Isn't that also a "passive, dismissive eye"?    

      As for how the super delegates are playing out, I have no problems with that. What you seem to miss is the fact that Obama is getting about 4.5 of them per day. How's HRC doing? Right, no problems with this Obama supporter!

      It is sad how the Clinton campaign got away with twisting the rules, the expectations and the goal posts. But that is now history.

      Now, I suppose it is time for you to reply to my comment with a threat to vote for Bob Barr?  

      "Obama, Obama, I love ya, Obama; you're only November away" -- cute ginger kid

      by Tortmaster on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:29:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm Canadian, Mack. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        penguins4peace

        I don't get a vote. But I do have a front row seat, so the process interests me.

        It is sad how the Clinton campaign got away with twisting the rules, the expectations and the goal posts. But that is now history.

        As I mentioned, seeking the seating of Michigan and Florida on May 31st is something that is within the rules to do. The meeting of this committee is part of the process. In fact, to challenge the right to seek a resolution of the dispute is an attempt to "change the rules."

        The media psyops tactic of challenging of the integrity of the institution of superdelegates from February until very recently is also a case of Obama's camp "challenging the rules."

        So, sounds kind of like the pot calling the kettle black from where I'm standing.

        •  Sorry, dawg, I'm no longer ... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ssgbryan, penguins4peace

          ... worried about that. Once I heard HRC supporters actually on the committee saying that they wouldn't go along with such a naked power grab, I lost interest.

          Then, I remembered that to get seated at a convention, the MI/FL delegates would have to go through an Obama-controlled committee. So, then, my negligible interest got even smaller.

          Then, I remembered Obama's insurmountable lead even with Michigan and Florida going to HRC in a nearly impossible naked power grab, and my small, negligible interest got microscopic.  

          Now, HRC cannot even get the nomination by destroying the Democratic Party, so, yawn, the threat is empty, and I'm going to bed.

          G'night!  

          (p.s. Sorry about the Canada thing. Nothing I can do about that.).

          "Obama, Obama, I love ya, Obama; you're only November away" -- cute ginger kid

          by Tortmaster on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:55:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well.. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            penguins4peace, Dark UltraValia

            Then, I remembered that to get seated at a convention, the MI/FL delegates would have to go through an Obama-controlled committee. So, then, my negligible interest got even smaller.

            Then, I remembered Obama's insurmountable lead even with Michigan and Florida going to HRC in a nearly impossible naked power grab, and my small, negligible interest got microscopic.  

            Now, HRC cannot even get the nomination by destroying the Democratic Party, so, yawn, the threat is empty, and I'm going to bed.

            My instincts tell me not to put away the popcorn just yet.  I think this race has quite a bit left in it.

            (p.s. Sorry about the Canada thing. Nothing I can do about that.).

            No worries.  My countrymen are not in Iraq, and my family can afford to get sick because we have state health care.  Things could be worse.

    •  ...Wait, what? (0+ / 0-)

      Superdelegates?  Where'd that come from?

      Superdelegates can vote however the hell they want according to DNC rules, but they still should support the pledged delegate winner.

      There are people who say, "If music's that easy to write, I could do it." Of course they could, but they don't. - John Cage

      by RoscoeOfAlabama on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:37:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's no should about it (0+ / 0-)

        Superdelegates can vote however the hell they want according to DNC rules, but they still should support the pledged delegate winner.

        This is the problem; that's a fraudulent concept. It's trying to redefine things in a convenient fashion.
        The institution of superdelegates is there for the purpose of giving seasoned political leadership of the party a chance to execute sober second thought.
        And as I said, they can change their mind as many times as they like right up to August.

        The counterbalance available in the system to protect against abuse is that there are only 800 superdelegates and 3600 pledged.
        So if a candidate wants to put superdelegates out of the equation, simple: become such an overwhelming favorite that you run up an 800 delegate lead. In this year's race, however, It's going to be more like 100, most likely.
        So either way, these superdelegates will pick the nominee based on how the weather looks in August.

    •  Your pre-emptive challenge is absurd. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      penguins4peace

      There is no breach of integrity by anyone here because you are challenging non existent people on their nonexistent advocacy for changing the rules regarding when a SD votes.  That's a total strawman claim.  Nobody is saying the SDs should change any rule with regard to when and how the SDs cast their vote.

      You are comparing apples and oranges.  On the one hand, a candidate, her campaign, and her supporters are claiming that the rules should be changed to allow a group who cheated to have their election count.  On the other hand, a candidate has said relatively little about when and how SDs should decide who to vote for, some of his supporters have said they think it should go to the winner of the pledged delegates, and his supporters have engaged in vigorous debate about how and when SDs decide.

      Nobody is saying that everybody should join the Pelosi Club.  Nobody trashed Heath Schuler for his decision to go with Hillary based on his district voting for her.  Nobody is is saying that she doesn't have the 'right' to bring this to the convention floor.  These conversations don't exist.  We discuss whether it is wise for her to bring it to the convention floor because of the damage it would do to the party if that's the course of action she chooses.  We discuss the history of the SD and debate how and when we think their vote should be cast.  We don't stand for a rule change on how SDs cast their vote in this election.

      •  Come now. (0+ / 0-)

        The message came out in February in a coordinated and forceful manner to claim that if superdelegates vote in such a way that the pledged delegate leader doesn't emerg as winner, then they are "stealing the election."  I have lost count of how many times I have seen those exact words written.  
        This notion that superdelegates have a categorical imperative to nod along with the other delegates has been, explicitly or implicitly part of the media strategy of Obama for months now. The tone against SD's freely voting their conscience has only softened of late in correlation to how much their "consciences" have leaned to Obama.

        •  So. What. (0+ / 0-)

          It's still not saying that the rules on how and when the SDs choose should be changed.

          Further, it doesn't change anything I said, despite any 'coordinated and forceful manner' which may or may not have existed.  There was a discussion of how and when people thought the SDs should vote.  People saying that she is 'stealing the election' if the SDs overturned the pledged delegates is a statement that will naturally arise in that discussion.  It certainly wasn't a theme within the Obama supporting world that became a major theme for any length of time, because there is always a clear thinking Obama supporter to say 'it is well within the rules to change votes on the convention floor.'

          Further still, it was mostly a reaction to Hillary's camp suggestion that she take this all the way to the convention.  Yes, there may have been a 'coordinated and forceful' exchange, but it certainly wasn't out of the blue.  It was a reaction to the notion that she drag this thing on and on and eventually win the nomination via the powerful interests within the party.

          And the softening of the 'coordinated and forceful' manner which may or may not exist is for one reason and one reason only, if it happened, because the change in the SD total and the ever decreasing possibility of that happening, for a wide variety of reasons.  There's not alot of sense in talking about something that gets less likely everyday.  I have no idea what your explanation is supposed to mean, but it seems like a slam on Obama supporters, more than anything substantive or even relevant to the conversation.

    •  It's a little late for that. (0+ / 0-)

      Saying that the Rules Committee is part of the rules is not on in this case. One of the great problems created by the Clinton camp was a springlong campaign to say that a record number of voters had voted in the two illegal primaries,  the the voters themselves were disenfranchised  by the rule and that it was unDemocratic and unAmerican to do that. This is a separate form of campaigning looking to win support in and from MI and FLA  and trying to change  their position as to O when there was still the possibility of a revote where she could profit from the remarks, on the ground that she is a staunch defender of voters' rights (despite her prior statements) and  contained repeately broadcast claims by her and her surrogates that O was unAmerican  and disenfranchising the beautiful voters of FLA and MI not to simply go along with giving her all the delegates she claimed she had won fairly albeit not in conformity to the rule, because, after all, some people had gone to the poll and cast them, thereby curing all illegality. This campaign was very public and very condemning of whatever she said was the O position. She made it a political issue against O and has changed the matter entirely. She can't go back from that now and say she didn't throw the unAmerican charge into it. Of course the disenfranchisement of the MI voters who tried to vote for O  by writing him in and saw their ballots chucked away  in front of them is not disenfranchisement. And the MI and FLA voters who didn't vote because they had heard of the rule and knew it wouldn't count, is not disenfranchisement. Somehow.  

      Your statement that O took himself off the ballot in MI for political gain is also not correct. All of the candidates were required to sign a pledge, which she signed along with O and others, that they would neither campaign nor participate in any primary not authorized by the rule. Appearing on the ballot is participating in the illegal primary. The DNC asked the candidates to take their names off and everyone but HRC did, she justifying leaving it there because it wasn't going to count anyway. And that other voting block is 'uncommitted' not 'unspecified' and covered more at that time than just O. I am frankly amused that you consider a one candidate primary when there re several candidates to be something which should be accepted and sustained. Fidel does that. Russia does that.

      The same was not done in FLA, as I understand it because there is a law in FLA that you cannot appear on the ballot in the general election if you were not on the ballot in the primary. Interesting rule but it left both of them on the ballot, but without an opportunity for O to campaign there and do anything at all about his miniscule name recognition against the most famous woman in America.

  •  Great diary, with one exception (0+ / 0-)

    This:

    [Obama]  might be benefiting from the situation, but he’s not responsible for it.

    This situation, overall, has made things worse for Obama. If it had never happened, if FL and MI hadn't moved their primaries or the DNC had imposed a milder punishment, Obama would have campaigned in those states, and -- as we've seen elsewhere -- he would likely have cut into Clinton's lead (having his name on the MI ballot might have helped, too). True, Clinton would have likely picked up a few more delegates, but not enough to make a difference. He'd still be safely in first place.

    Clinton is the one who has benefited here. She could coast on name recognition (and of course, being the only candidate on the ballot in MI). She racked up totals she never would have gotten in a fair fight, which give her the illusion of still being in the race.

    •  That's not his point (0+ / 0-)

      The point is that people are saying he benefits, but whether or not he is, he's not responsible. (Hence "might be".)

      Denny Crane: But if he supports a law, and then agrees to let it lapse … then that would make him …

      Shirley Schmidt: A Democrat.

      by Jyrinx on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:13:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The point is that people are SAYING he benefits (0+ / 0-)

        when the opposite is true. That seems to me a point worth making.

        •  I was going to say the same thing (0+ / 0-)

          both your original comment and the reply to the other posters comment.

          If Florida and Michigan counted as is, with Florida getting the split according to their election and Obama getting nothing in Michigan, and the SDs counting, he'd still have an advantage of 53 in pledged and an overall lead of 52.5 delegates.  If this never happened, he campaigns in Florida and gets a few more there, and he keeps his name on the ballot and campaigns in Michigan and keeps it close in delegates, just like in OH, PA and IN.  

          If this had never happened, right now we would be asking why Hillary is staying in it when she could never catch him in pledged delegates, and there would not be any discussion of 'but what about MI and Fl.'

  •  Clinton Rules (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ssgbryan

    Florida and Michigan should be seated because it turns out I need them.

    "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent" --Gandhi

    by dsharma23 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:03:43 PM PDT

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