Daily Kos

Is McCain's Age A Legitimate Talking Point?

Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:54:32 AM PDT

This has to be a very short and quick one as I have to rush to work, but I thought I should raise it so that Kossacks can decide it once and for all, hopefully. Is Senator McCain's age a legitimate issue to call him out on this election year? Do we gain from making a big issue of it or bringing it up as a talking point, or do we make a big mistake that is not only legally indefensible but also distracts from the real issues and makes us look bad. Your opinion on this one is desperately called for.

Yes, he sets out to say one thing but then says another. He can't remember what he is: a radical liberal or a liberal radical or a conservative radical liberal. He holds the microphone the wrong one and speaks into the tail of it, and while at West Forest University, he say's he's grateful for being in West Virginia. He can't tell Shia from Sunni and remembers nothing about the economy.

There is no doubt that Senator McCain, as the oldest citizen in our history to contest the office of the President, is taking us all on uncharted territory. And if one may so, there is no doubt either that the years are taking a toll on him as he prepares himself for one of the most taxing and gruelling jobs in the world, one that requires unusual mental agility, a sound memory and judgment, and, of course, a clean bill of health, also.

However, not only do the constitutional requirements for running for POTUS allow for citizens of Senator McCain's age to contest for office--and mind you they bring with them a wealth of experience--there are constitutional ammendments that also make it wrongful to discriminate against any citizen on the strength of their age. Sounds like this makes it far from "legitimate" to make an issue, even if we have a right to "discuss" it privately or raise concerns around it. Constitutional scholars and lawyers here can better enlighten us.

But even more importantly, given that there are numerous policy issues on which we can roundly defeat Senator McCain in this election: his position on tax cuts, his position on the war, his apparent lack of knowledge on the economy, his scandalous past with special interests, his commitment to roll back critical constitutional protections in order to satisfy his newly-found conservative base, wouldn't it be more effective that we confront him on these issues?

Would discussing McCain's age instead of these issues not be a distraction that we can ill afford?

Would it not also signal return to the politics of the past that our presumptive nominee has vowed to take the nation away from this year?

Would discussing Senator McCain's age instead of his policy and character failings not give him and his base an unnecessary high ground when they have none, and at the same time make us look bad.

Yes, we understand. But do we have to go there and make it a talking point. Will it serve us well to rest this fight on it? Please weigh in.

Tags: john mccain, mccain's age, general elections (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 87 comments

    •  Agreed (7+ / 0-)

      I agree with Sharon Jumper above that the answer is no, but it needs a bit more nuance.

      In reality McCain's age will come up in innumerable ways, including his campaign raising it in imagined slurs by his opponents (e.g. the "lost his bearings" comment from Obama).

      My personal line in the sand will be to make sure I never suggest that people should be ruled out simply by virtue of their age. But I would not hold back on comments regarding McCain's physical health, mental vigor, life philosophy and readiness for 21st century issues,etc., out of fear that these would be read as ageist.

      Obama for President '08

      by Bronxist on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:08:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Age, yes. (9+ / 0-)

      It is valid especially because senior citizens are the ones most concerned about it. They know the limitations of age. Plus McCain has had cancer, spent many years as a POW, etc. These are all debilitating factors to his general health--physical and mental. So absolutely age is to be considered.

      Reagan deflected it with humor. Perhaps McCain will also be able to do so.

      All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. -- Thomas Jefferson

      by DWKING on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:11:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You have to look at the individual. Obviously (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ozarkspark

        someone can be 35 and have dementia.  To go after McCain because of his age is as prejudiced as going after Obama for his race.  It is not the color of ones skin or their age, it is their competence and character.  I think it is offensive to go after McCain for his age.

        •  Sorry, but there is a big difference between age (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Pandoras Box, tcdup

          and color. McCains's mother is very sharp for a woman in her 90s. But she has not gone through the debilitating experiences McCain himself has. To assume they have not taken a toll is just not logical. His age is a factor. We make older citizens take driving tests more frequently, don't we? Is it ageism or common sense? And senior citizens generally have their hearing and eyesight checked more often as well. Is this ageism or common sense?

          All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. -- Thomas Jefferson

          by DWKING on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:08:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We don't need to raise it. Every time that McCain (4+ / 0-)

            and Obama appear together, it will be devastatingly obvious that McCain is a failing, dulled man, with nothing like the razor sharp mind and physical energy of Obama.

            We could propose a one-on-one basketball match, I suppose.

            •  I agree we don't have to raise it. (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Wee Mama, JeffW

              But they have already tipped their hand by claiming Obama slandered McCain by commenting he'd "lost his bearings". Frankly, they made a huge mistake taking this tact. As a NAvy man McCain knows what the phrase means and it has nothing to do with age. But if they want to scream ageism is will only serve to remind people he's a geezer.

              All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. -- Thomas Jefferson

              by DWKING on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:02:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  And, as others have noted, (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            DWKING, JeffW

            McCain's father died in his 70s.  It's overly simplistic to say that since McCain's mother is still alive in her 90s, John McCain will also be long-lived.  Statistically, men do not live as long as women.

            "We *can* go back to the Dark Ages! The crust of learning and good manners and tolerance is so thin!" -- Sinclair Lewis

            by Nespolo on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:49:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I am less interested in his age, (0+ / 0-)

      and more concerned about his potential for having PTSD and having his finger on the nuclear trigger.

      "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" - Edmund Burke

      by rclendan on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:49:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Like most older folks of the right (10+ / 0-)

    McCain still has a mind like a Steel Trap, but it has rusted shut with age...

    President Theodore Roosevelt,"No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered."

    by SmileySam on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:56:42 AM PDT

  •  If race is.. (5+ / 0-)

    ..I think age should be.
    Even Jack Murtha says that the job of president is too physically demanding at that age. McCain himself said it was possible he may not live through 2 terms.I think that is a very relevant issue to discuss.

  •  Age + Competence. n/t (3+ / 0-)

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight.

    by JeffW on Mon May 12, 2008 at 06:59:49 AM PDT

  •  Whether it's "legitimate" or not... (5+ / 0-)

    ...it will be a talking point.

  •  Age, per se, shouldn't be a talking point (16+ / 0-)

    but his frequent bouts of confusion, 'misspeaking' and the need for having Lieberman around to whisper in his ear are valid talking points.

    And WHEN will he release his medical records? Regardless of age, the fact that he has a history of a very aggressive form of cancer is a valid talking point if he doesn't release up to date medical records.

    You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

    by yellowdog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:01:04 AM PDT

    •  RE: medical records... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LynneK, Abra Crabcakeya

      I'm concerned about his mental state.  Someone who spends 5 1/2 years as a POW is certainly a hero, but may not be mentally capable of leading our country.

      "It's not just enough to change the players. We've gotta change the game." ~ Obama

      by madame defarge on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:06:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think this is ethical. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      greylox

      I do not want to set a precedent of voters demanding the medical records of politicians, even if it would benefit us this time.

      Do you think it's a valid point to raise that Obama's mom died relatively early, but McCain's mom is still healthy in considering matters of health? Or that ex-smokers are at higher risk for cancer and heart attacks (Obama being an ex-smoker)? Should those matters be fodder for a million stupid talking heads?

      Personal medical history should have no part in politics unless a candidate is actually ill while running for office.

      •  Exactly - is a candidate ill while running for (0+ / 0-)

        office? Who you gonna ask? Who's gonna tell you the truth?

      •  I'm not talking about family history or (0+ / 0-)

        an increased risk of disease due to lifestyle choices; I'm talking about a man with a history of an aggressive type of cancer. He has to prove that he is cancer free.

        You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

        by yellowdog on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:55:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Asking to see medical records (0+ / 0-)

          is opening a can of worms. Because if McCain's medical records are turned over, so must Obama's be. And other presidential candidates may be asked the same in the future. And most of people's medical info is no one's business but theirs.

          What if we find out Obama has a heart murmur? Etc. Etc. Etc. Do you really want all of everything in their medical records to become part of the political discourse? I don't.

  •  it is in our interest (6+ / 0-)

    to know how advanced senescence is in him.  And of course, how likely he is to keel over.  Are we really voting for/against his vice president?

    There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

    by abundibot on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:01:20 AM PDT

  •  No, but his stupidity is. (12+ / 0-)

    After 8 years of "dumb as a stump" do we really need a 4 year replay?

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:03:31 AM PDT

  •  Let's face it (12+ / 0-)

    The guy is old.  Whatever you say about McCain, his campaign will cry ageism.  It's a win-win for Obama.  We will point out his legitimate faults and McCain will bring up the fact that he is old.

    "The Only Thing We Have to Fear Is Fear Itself" - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by djbender on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:04:15 AM PDT

  •  Effects, no the age itself... (3+ / 0-)

    ...even now McCain's age related effects are increasingly difficult to minimize. The media is working overtime just to keep him afloat until after the Democratic convention. Unlike Reagan or even GW Bush, I don't think McCain has the facility for rote. He seems more like a shoot from the hip seat of his pants kind of guy. But in a contest decided by a media obsessed by double dribbles, McCain is already showing problems with getting down the floor.

  •  Health status - yes, age no (6+ / 0-)

    I think the electorate needs to get some un-filtered info about McCain's health.  His age - in belly-button years should not be an issue, however his perspective, rooted in the politics of a different era is fair game.

    Anthropologists for human diversity; opposing McCain perversity

    by Deoliver47 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:07:54 AM PDT

  •  Winning on the merits... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    LynneK, JeffW

    ...the very core of McCain's ideas are bad, even when spoken pristinely and separated from association with failed Bush and GOP policies. On their own, the are dessicated pile of dog feces. Sans, E! Politics, Obama will be like a scoop that deposits McCain's quaint notions in the nearest circular file.

  •  Age is just a number (6+ / 0-)

    but if McCain can't keep everything straight himself, then his administration is going to have to be run by the advisors.  And as we've seen with Bush, having the inmates run the asylum is a recipe for disaster. McCain's inner circle would probably be very much like Bush's, as McCain would owe so much to the national GOP that he would have very little choice in the matter.

    Also, McCain's advanced age makes his Vice Presidential choice extremely important, as there is a higher chance of the VP ending up in the Oval Office as there has been since Reagan's second term.

    It's worth noting that one would have to worry about none of this in an Obama administration. The Prez himself would roll up the sleeves and make decisions in the country's best interest, with input from the advisors--but he's the one calling the shots.

    "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."--Alice's Restaurant

    by ekthesy on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:08:50 AM PDT

  •  NO (5+ / 0-)

    But temperament and judgment, yes

    John W. McCain, Bush's third term.

    by aaraujo on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:11:02 AM PDT

  •  Though I don't think he did it on purpose, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pandoras Box, Abra Crabcakeya, oak510

    I think Obama's comment about McCain having lost his bearings worked well.  It made McCain defend his age while the Obama camp (whether truthfully or not) could deny that they were actually talking about age.  Maybe some Obama surrogates could hint at McCain's age just so much that he feels he needs to defend himself: call it "age-baiting".

  •  Absolutely (5+ / 0-)

    you're talking about someone who is looking to become the leader of the free world.  As such, ALL competencies should be looked at objectively.  If he or any candidate was physically impaired, I'd say that's a consideration, if any candidate had a serious illness-that is a consideration.  It's not discriminatory, it's looking to see whether the person can fulfill the job to which they are applying. This PC stuff gets a little out of control sometimes.

    •  Our Federal government already does (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bluestateonian, Pandoras Box

      take age into account - mandatory retirement for federal employees (age 65) and FAA mandatory retirement for airline pilots (age 60)! I think McCain should be asked if he supports those arbitrary age limits.

      I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

      by Marinesquire on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:25:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, it is (6+ / 0-)

    This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Easy Questions.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:16:03 AM PDT

  •  yes, age is a talking point, indirectly (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cosette, bluestateonian, Pandoras Box

    it's similar to the idea that Obama had to be careful to not seem like he was picking on Hillary because she's a woman, but it's legitimate.

    Unlike race and gender, age does effect your abilities and the majority of people who will tell you this are people who are 60 and above.

    I say let others talk about it, Obama won't need to.  But it's on everyone's mind.

    NetrootNews coming soon!

    by ksh01 on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:17:40 AM PDT

  •  Well... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sharon Jumper

    Yes, he sets out to say one thing but then says another. He can't remember what he is: a radical liberal or a liberal radical or a conservative radical liberal. He holds the microphone the wrong one and speaks into the tail of it, and while at West Forest University, he say's he's grateful for being in West Virginia.

    Someone of any age who is clumsy and intellectually or lazy or just plain nervous might do those things.

    He can't tell Shia from Sunni and remembers nothing about the economy.

    Ignorance is age neutral.

    I'm not going to go after the guy on the age thing. My general preference for public service (like congress or the presidency) is older not younger anyway.

    If I had a choice to vote for one of two excellent candidates for public office, one 40 the other 80, I'm going to vote for the 80 year old presuming they have achieved a higher level of wisdom. If both are highly intelligent, erudite and progressive...I'm voting for the older person.

    Someone in their seventies or eighties should have a lot more experience and wisdom than someone in their forties or fifties. McCain seems to be an exception though. He's still a quick tempered, ignorant punk just like he's always been. He hasn't changed.

    There are lots of good reasons McCain shouldn't be president. Age isn't one of them in my opinion.

  •  Fair Question: (0+ / 0-)

    "Senator McCain, do you support the current mandatory retirement age of 65 for federal employees and the FAA mandatory retirement age of 60 for commercial pilots, and if so, why?"

    I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

    by Marinesquire on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:21:34 AM PDT

  •  Young Republicans are looking at McCain as old (3+ / 0-)

    anyway..we don't have to point it out..it is obvious.  Young Republicans are switching to Obama..they won't go for Clinton...they prefer Obama...

  •  And if the issue is dementia? (5+ / 0-)

    Practice tolerance, kindness and charity.

    by LWelsch on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:24:31 AM PDT

  •  to my mind .... (6+ / 0-)

    Age is a fair issue.

    the GOP and CorpMedia have and will try to make BHO's 'inexperience and lack of judgment' an issue. he is 'not ready' --- too young in other words.

    so: McDole's age is germane, a legit issue. his LONG history of 'shady' dealing ( keating five etc ) , his long history of iffy judgments ( numerous flip flops etc. ) . . .

    Oh, Jesus: protect me from your followers!

    by trippinsf on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:27:26 AM PDT

  •  please type that into my ear trumpet (n/t) (3+ / 0-)

    how can i turn italics off in my signature?

    by fightcentristbias on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:27:36 AM PDT

  •  I think not so much his age... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pandoras Box, JeffW

    but the onset of senility (clearly visible w/ McSame) that SOMETIMES accompanies those in their 70's.

    Aside: When I'm in my 70's, I hope to be upright and taking nourishment - if I'm only senile, I'll consider myself lucky.

  •  Pilots - 60, Fed. Govt. Employees - 65 (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bluestateonian, Abra Crabcakeya

    Mandatory retirement ages - our Federal Government already believes that arbitrary age limitations are legitimate, despite individual capability. Does McCain think these are fair?

    I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. - Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC

    by Marinesquire on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:32:57 AM PDT

  •  I'm 69. His age should be an issue in the (6+ / 0-)

    context of the seriously increasing risks as the years add up.  Specifically: possible Alzheimer's; never mind Alzheimer's, possible senile dementia (not the same thing); tendency away from mental flexibility with age (yes, I know there are youthful thinkers or just "thinkers" in the golden years, but the generalized tendency is there); increased liability to physical health problems; higher probability of dying in office; and, whatever problems you recall from when Uncle XXXXX got older.  Age brings increased personal problems that a younger wife--with lots of money--does not cure.  His years are shorthand for those problems or, the introduction to a specific issue of ability to perform the jos.

  •  The issues you raise in the diary (2+ / 0-)

    don't speak directly to his age so much as his mental competence.

    We didn't learn of Reagan's alzheimer's until long after he left office.  It is possible McCain may be suffering from a similar mental impairment.

    Strategically, it is better for us to hold off on that line of attack until after the Republican convention.  Wait until he's actually nominated before we demand seeing his health records.

  •  In any case, I guess my sig line tells (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    litho, Pandoras Box, Abra Crabcakeya

    everyone where I stand on this issue.

    John McCain - Practicing the old style of politics for the past 72 years!

    by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:34:37 AM PDT

  •  I don't think it's out of bounds, exactly... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    brooklynliberal, Leigh3352

    ...but I think it's better to focus on his out-of-touchness. Theoretically, there could be a 71-year-old candidate who was extremely sharp, lucid, and in tune with daily goings-on in the modern world. It's also possible for 40-somethings to suffer from true dementia. So I think it's both more accurate and less stereotypical towards the elderly to attack him directly on his out-of-touch, irritable, confused behavior and leave it up to voters whether they blame that on his age, his health, a personality defect, or whatever.

    Besides, we don't need to inform anyone that McCain is old anyway, no more than the Republicans need to inform anyone that Obama is African-American. This is the TV age; everyone who cares can see that for themselves.

  •  I think age---or the universal deteriorating (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pandoras Box, dotdot, Abra Crabcakeya

    effects of old age---is a legitimate issue.  And by the way, people have frequently brought it up with me while phonebanking.  It's something which is already being considered by the public.
     And I don't care who you are or how bright or how fit, things just don't work as well when you're older.  For instance, this a.m. when I saw the poll here asking which pres. election you first voted in, my husband said his first election was the one with LBJ and..........blank-----and we both sat here like dunces----you know, the guy from Arizona----with the white hair and horn-rimmed glasses........nothing, can't think of his name....driving us nuts.........and then finally, much later, Goldwater!  Took a long time for the name we know well to work its way thru the series of tubes in our heads----it's maddening, but it's real and it happens to all.
     I think McCain's advanced age is an important issue----especially with all the evidence he seems to be befuddled---alot.

  •  Subtlety rules (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Abra Crabcakeya

    Question 1: Can Obama's campaign talk about the age issue?

    Answer: No. This issue is to his campaign what race has been to HRC's campaign. The instant Obama or anyone close to him (e.g., his wife; his VP candidate; anyone on his campaign) talks about this subject, even "on background," then people can accuse Obama of being ageist, or tolerating ageism.

    Question 2: Can people outside of the official campaign circuit talk about this issue, and, if so, how?

    Answer: Yes, but carefully.

    When people on Daily Kos post gleeful diaries about McCain losing his way during a speech, my inner swing voter tells me this looks incredibly, incredibly obnoxious, and it invites swing voters to look for evidence that Obama sometimes loses his way during his speeches or interviews when he's exhausted.

    Ways to deal with the age issue:

    1. Unedited video is king.

    The very best way to deal with this issue is for McCain himself to make this an issue by messing up in ways that are very obvious to anyone watching a video of the guy speaking. Whenever videos like this come up, simply make sure that they are readily available.

    But, brutally honestly, the best way to promote these videos would be to create politically neutral or conservative message board sock puppets, then have these sock puppets comment very gently on the videos. E.g., "Wow, looks as if McCain is a little bit tired this week." Then cross fingers and hope genuine conservative and swing voter message board look at the videos, too, and start marveling at how awful McCain looks.

    1. When Obama supporters away from the campaign address this topic directly, we should do so in a way that is very fact-specific and/or kills McCain with kindness.

    The "pattern sentences" should be something like the following:

    a) "McCain is a great guy. No doubt about that. But I have concerns about the time he [alarming incident 1], [alarming incident 2] and [alarming incident 3]."

    b) "McCain is a fine man, but, frankly, that incident on [day] raises questions about what the strain of serving in the White House would do to him."

    1. Remember that attacks on McCain's age could subtly help him, by reminding people that McCain is an older, experienced guy.

    Think about all of the attacks on Bill Clinton based on the proposition that Clinton was a sex fiend. I think those attacks backfired, because they reminded people that Clinton was a virile guy. Maybe a lot of people secretly found the idea of having a Stud in Chief in the White House was rather appealing.

    Along the same lines, reminding people that McCain is old if a lot of swing voters secretly like the idea of the president being more like their fathers -- or grandfathers -- than like themselves.

  •  respectfully, (3+ / 0-)

    I wouldnt loan my car to a 71 year old let alone loan him or her the white house.  heck, I am 57 and if I were you I wouldnt loan me your car either!  mac is no Churchill!

    Mrs. Teasdale: I held him in my arms and kissed him. Rufus T. Firefly: Oh, I see, then it was murder!

    by ratador on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:50:53 AM PDT

  •  It's not a good idea to criticize (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    brooklynliberal

    McCain for his age.  

    McCain's gaffs, displays of ignorance, phony displays of empathy, lies, pandering, and more lies, are all fair game, as they are when people half his age do the same things. But when you use his age as a weapon, you're playing on stereotypes and prejudice, and it damages your credibility in fair debate.  

    His mental  fitness is probably going to be a question in this campaign, as it probably needs to be. But you damage the arguement by reducing it to a question of age alone.  Does he think things through, is he judicious, does he have the facts, does he give respect, does he ever mean what he says, or know what he means?  It's not about being old, it's about being a self-serving, incompetent imposter.

    He's already trying to play the maligned elder statesman over age insults. I wouldn't go there.

    Ok, got that off my chest.

    •  Yes. And we'd best keep in mind (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ozarkspark

      that we NEED older voters. That is the age group Obama is having a harder time with. It's a terrible idea to make them feel lesser as people for political reasons. Which they will if people say stuff like "71 year olds are losing their faculties" etc.

      Please people. Be smart about this.

  •  Anyone who doesn't approve of his age (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    brooklynliberal

    doesn't have to vote for him. End of discussion, let's move on to more productive topics. How do we end the war in Iraq and increase taxes on the upper class to help bail out the Bush defecits and fund needed social programs?

    I voted with my feet. Good Bye and Good Luck America!!

    by shann on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:57:04 AM PDT

    •  First - win the election. That's what we are (0+ / 0-)

      talking about when discussing McCain's frailties and whether it's good to honk about them or not. I'm sure you realize that. My wife and I live in a very bloody red area , and we talk to folks , need to hear and discuss kinds of things that might best work or be avoided in casual conversation so that we can help bring undecided /wary voters into the fold we would like them to be in. Gotta win first ; remeber how unlikely it seemed that Dumbya would get in 1st time , unbelievable he would get reselected? Totally agree with you about out of Iraq and totasl rework of taxation in USA. Peace!

  •  Competence, yes, but age is dangerous (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    brooklynliberal

    It's possible for someone of McCain's age to be mentally and physically in excellent shape. But McCain isn't.

    I think there's a great danger in directly attacking on the issue of age. Quite a few Democrats in my age group (mid-40s) were very uncomfortable at times when it seemed as if the Obama campaign (or overzealous young supporters, but that's a difference that makes little difference) seemed to be pro-youth to the point of marginalizing and dismissing everyone over the age of 40 (with the exception of Obama himself). And I'm talking about Obama supporters who were getting uncomfortable. Now let's suppose there are lots of middle-aged-and-older Hillary supporters and undecideds out there who need to be wooed to the Obama camp and are afraid that the Obama campaign really is all about glorifying youth and putting the old farts out to pasture. Bashing on age would backfire.

    Obama needs to come across as new, energetic, and highly competent, and make McCain look like a doddering dolt by comparison, without seeming to say "...and we think that everyone past Obama's age is also unqualified for any important job."

  •  Aye, it's health related as is competency (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Pandoras Box, Abra Crabcakeya

    I'm sixty, in excellent health, and there's no way in hell that I could stand up to the rigors demanded by the Presidency. There may be a few extraordinary individuals who can defy their chronological age, but the burden to demonstrate competency is clearly on their shoulders .

    McCain, by his very actions during this campaign has given rise to serious doubts about his mental agility. A slip of the tongue during a campaign should be regarded as just what it is, but multiple occasions demand closer scrutiny.
    Stock market over-reactions, wars and panics are a few of the results that arise from inadvertent slips of the tongue.

    "When the powerful say that the price was worth the blood and treasure, you can bet your ass it wasn't their blood, nor their treasure."

    by sceptical observer on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:09:41 AM PDT

  •  NO...it isn't about age, that would backfire (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JeffW

    it IS about judgement and temperament. He is unfit to be President for both of those. Leave age out of it.

  •  No, his handlers want that off the table. (0+ / 0-)

    And his handlers are the same ones who have done such a great job with Chimpy

    St. Ronnie was an asshole.

    by manwithnoname on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:29:34 AM PDT

  •  Competency Yes, Age No (0+ / 0-)

    Believe me, I despise McCain. But when I've read diaries talking about his age being the deciding factor, I've squirmed.

    Once age starts to be a factor, you open the floodgates. Is HRC too old since she's running at 62 and would be 70 upon leaving office (assuming a two-term presidency)? Should we demand that our wonderful elder statesman Jimmy Carter be sent out to grass because at age 83, he's 11 years older than McCain? Should all future presidents be between the ages of 35 and 55?

    There are a lot of folks over 50 voting in this election. If you make them feel that this is the 1960s redux -- don't trust anyone over 30 -- you'll be creating a gap that won't be easily closed.

    McCain's going to give us more than enough gaffes, blatant stupidity and ill-informed comments that we're not going to have to call him on his "senior moments".

    •  Age and competence get tightly woven together (0+ / 0-)

      well , after a time.True that how much time differs for all of us. True that some are incompetent assholes at any stage of their lives. This is a battle , not a game ; weapons are needed and should be used, though carefully.

  •  I think it's a legitimate issue (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    esquimaux, Abra Crabcakeya

    but maybe not an issue to be raised directly by Obama.

    However, I loved Obama's comments about "losing his bearings" because when McCain whined about that being a criticism of his age (and thus making everyone actually THINK about his age), Obama could again say "no, it wasn't about that" making McCain seem further confused.

    lose/lose for McCain
    win/win for Obama

    "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

    by Pandoras Box on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:36:36 AM PDT

  •  It's legitimate because of the VP issue (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    esquimaux

    We could have a "trojan horse" situation where, should a President McCain pass away or become incapable of performing his duties as President, we could get stuck with a really awful right wing VP like Romney, Huckabee, Jindal, or Pawlenty who would then become President without ever winning the primaries or perhaps not even being a candidate in the primaries. People might elect McCain because he seems more reasonable than Bush, but we would then be stuck with someone far worse who we did not elect.

    Age is also legitimate in a way that race and gender are not because while race and gender are only physical traits, advanced age necessarily brings with it a diminished cognitive capacity that is a real consideration because it will only continue to worsen. It's not superfluous - it has an effect on the one thing this job requires above all else - an agile, competent brain. It's not an issue for Obama to raise, but I am eager to see this get the attention it deserves from pundits, surrogates, and 527s.

  •  Absolutely (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    esquimaux

    His age is absolutely a legitimate issue. The odds are good that he would die in office, solely because of his age (that and the melanoma). That's appropriate to consider.
    All the age-related issues, like his apparent senility, are legitimate too, but the dies-in-office thing makes age an issue in itself.
    I'm 62.

    breaking news in little bits since 1981

    by mswaine on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:50:55 AM PDT

  •  They Used It Against Obama: Young / Inexperienced (0+ / 0-)

    And he fought them tooth and nail and now he is the nominee.

    What a bunch of WHINERS on McCains side.

    McCain/(Hagee+Parsley) '08 "We Hunt Jews and Muslims So You Dont Have To. Straight Talk"

    by DFutureIsNow on Mon May 12, 2008 at 09:13:28 AM PDT

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