Daily Kos

FISA Fight: Mixed Signals from the Republicans

Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:07:54 AM PDT

Yesterday, Think Progress noted that one of the Republican's pundit mouthpieces was floating the idea that they were going to attempt to get the Cheney/Rockefeller FISA bill past the House by attaching to a media shield bill that has strong bipartisan support. That effort would mean some procedural hurdles for the minority that hopefully leadership would be willing to block. This sounds like a trial balloon, but nonetheless signals the ongoing obsession the Right has with passing the Protect AT&T Act.

Meanwhile, ranking SSCI member Kit Bond told The Hill that the White House is "willing to compromise" on amnesty.

Bond said: "I think we’ve come up with some things that would involve the court, but not get to a position where it would endanger the program or the carriers."

White House spokesman Tony Fratto declined to comment.

Bond said the language, drafted with White House consent, represented a "new provision we’ve come up with" on immunity. He would not give details other than to say that the FISA court would have a role. It is unclear whether the new approach will gain approval from Democratic leaders and negotiators....

Recently, talks have gone on separate tracks. Bond has taken his case directly to House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.), who also has held separate talks with Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.). Bond said talks with a wider range of lawmakers and staff were unfocused.

Bond and Hoyer have narrowed their talks down to two areas: retroactive immunity and procedures on targeting people outside the United States in eavesdropping and minimizing communications captured incidentally during surveillance operations.

Hoyer has recently suggested revisions, including more court involvement in minimization and targeting procedures.

"There were something like 50 people, and they came up with 25 different ideas, and [Hoyer] sent the list over to me and said, ‘Thank you very much for your ideas, but you and I have talked about the two main ones,’ " Bond said of a recent meeting with all House and Senate negotiators.

Bond’s efforts might not go over well with Rockefeller, who offered his own proposal last week.

"I’m neither optimistic nor pessimistic, but I’m hopeful," Rockefeller said about reaching an agreement.

Bond described Rockefeller’s plan as "bizarre" and said it "totally undid what we passed in the Senate."

The news that Rockefeller is totally undoing what passed in the Seante is the most encouraging news from him in months, but Bond's obnoxious dismissal of it just reiterates the pointlessness of trying to deal with Republicans. At the same time, it's not encouraging that Hoyer apparently has been working more with Bond than with Rockefeller.

One potential, and not completely disastrous, compromise they could be floating would be along the lines of the Specter-Whitehouse substitution bill, which would would allow plaintiffs to substitute the government as the defendant in the pending cases, thus dismissing the teleco defendants. What it's important it that it would ensure that plaintiffs retain full discovery rights – i.e., they can serve discovery requests on the dismissed teleco companies. It's entirely possible, as Kevin Drum and bmaz have argued that the telcos signed indemnification agreements with the government when the warrantless surveillance program began. Any such agreement would be classified, so we don't know they exist, but it seems pretty likely.

Indemnification would be acceptable, provided the cases go forward and the plaintiffs have discovery rights vis-a-vis the telcos. These cases have never been about the potential damage awards against the telcos, despite the Right's efforts to paint this as a greedy trial lawyer issue. What it has always been about is information: about the public's right to know what our government has been doing and why. Given the administration's penchant for secrecy, it doesn't seem likely that this is the kind of compromise that they'd be willing to agree to.

Anything less is unacceptable.

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Tags: FISA, warrantless wiretapping, telco amnesty, Steny Hoyer, Kit Bond (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 67 comments

  •  Say No to Secret Courts (6+ / 0-)

    No hiding this behind the closed doors of the FISA Court.

    President Theodore Roosevelt,"No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered."

    by SmileySam on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:10:56 AM PDT

    •  FISA (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      miasmo, geomoo

      Sen. Kit Bond (R-Mo.), vice chairman of the Intelligence Committee, said the White House seems willing to let the FISA court help determine whether phone companies should be shielded from litigation...

      Bond said the language, drafted with White House consent, represented a "new provision we’ve come up with" on immunity. He would not give details other than to say that the FISA court would have a role. It is unclear whether the new approach will gain approval from Democratic leaders and negotiators.

      From the Hill.

      President Theodore Roosevelt,"No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered."

      by SmileySam on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:13:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Feinstein's was the FISA court proposal (3+ / 0-)

      Specter/Whitehouse goes through regular federal courts.  Feinstein's proposal is apparently not under consideration.

      "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams.

      by mcjoan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:14:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If Kit Bond is for it; then we must be against it (5+ / 0-)

    Period!

  •  States Secrets and Executive Privilege (5+ / 0-)

    Once the administration is substituted for the telcos, what's to stop them from citing Executive Privilege, etc. to nullify the subpoenas?

    The Spectre bill looks like a total disaster to me.

  •  Indemnification - Yes! Immunity - Hell, NO! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcmom

    It is vitally important to the preservation of liberty in this country that the abuses of power be exposed.  The only way this is going to happen thoroughly is through the courts.

    John McCain - Practicing the old style of politics for the past 72 years!

    by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:16:57 AM PDT

  •  Why should anyone be indemnified... (6+ / 0-)

    ...against breaking the law?

    •  Because the point is not to bleed the telcos, (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mcmom, kevinspa, geomoo

      the point is to ensure that the government is held responsible for what they did.

      John McCain - Practicing the old style of politics for the past 72 years!

      by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:19:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And to score important political points! (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mcmom, geomoo

        The American people will be and are furious that the Rethugs were listening in to our telephone conversations with people powered friends overseas.

        People power = LGBTQ marital rights = OBAMA '08!

        by kevinspa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:23:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I don't care about monetary damages (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jbeach, mcmom, geomoo

        If the telcos broke the law I want to see the people responsible in jail.  Just like I would be if I broke the law.

      •  Bleeding them my ass, thats the same crap they (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jbeach, bjornmmcc, mcmom

        said when they killed the Superfund program.

        Laws were in place, the companies understood the laws and understood the penalties for breaking those laws. They then intentionally violated the rights of nearly every damn American who owns a phone that isn't operated by Qwest.

        So cry me a river about the state of the telecom's books. The the CEO wants to make his company commit suicide and the board goes along with it then that's what happens. You don't change the law b/c they're above some imaginary "too big to fail" line.

        "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon

        by Windowdog on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:39:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think the Telcos should be bled too. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bjornmmcc

        After all, they broke the law - there's no reason why they shouldn't face consequences, as well as the government.

        And this would have the added benefit of making any and all corporations think twice, before breaking the law on government request.

        If it's a choice between the two, then the government should face consequences - they're the root cause. But I want to see the accomplice Telcos punished too, if at all possible.

        "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

        by jbeach on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:06:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly, retroactive immunity is a horrific (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jbeach, bjornmmcc, mcmom

      precedent to set. Any corporation would do anything the Administration wanted as long as the President could win indemnification later on.

      Saying this is workable b/c we get to prosecute Bush is short sighted in the extreme.

      "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon

      by Windowdog on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:35:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Telcoms Got Indemnity (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bjornmmcc, geomoo, falstaffshonour

      They just can't say it because of executive privilege or the clear fact that it would shock the conscience of Americans.

      Teleco Indemnity:  Legal Lesson :)))))These large corporations operate all agreements out of their law department and outside counsel, and I guarantee you that they are indemnified up one side and down the other.  I've been a Chief Legal Officer for 25 years and there is no way you would ever have your CEO sign an agreement to break the law unless the US and the President provided indemnification, subrogation, attorney fees guaranteed payment for any litigation that ensued, as broad form as they could make it.  Likely the indemnification, limitation on liabilities and defense provisions run 4 pages long, not to mention it is specifically mentioned in the survival clause.

      My vote is stall stall stall and don't give in whatsoever because the minute anything is approved, compromise or not, Bush's lawyers will interpret it to extend to him and his top people

      .

      •  So make them say it. (0+ / 0-)

        I agree (who am I to disagree with a 25-year CLO anyway:) that they probably already have indemification.  But let them explain why that is not really the issue.  And then let Bush & Co squirm as that explanation compels the conclusion that this is not about the telecoms at all, but about de facto immunizing Bush.

      •  How could Bushco commit funds (0+ / 0-)

        to the tune of a trillion bucks, without express Congressional authorization?

        Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
        Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

        by ben masel on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:12:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why is there a push (8+ / 0-)

    to pass any bill this year? I'm very suspicious about all of this.

    You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

    by zerone on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:19:27 AM PDT

    •  I'm sure huge fear of an active President (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mcmom, zerone

      Who might actually permit prosecution of this whole mess.

      I really hope that whichever Democrat gets in pursues it to the full extent. And that they aren't blinded by beltway pablum of "unity" - we can have that after we have some accountability. Otherwise we're just putting paint on a burning house.

      "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

      by jbeach on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:08:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not an attorney. (0+ / 0-)

    So can someone who is or understands the legal repurcussions tell me if the Whitehouse/Specter bill would still allow me to sue if the Government was listening in on my conversations with overseas people powered friends and whether we would still derive the political benefit of this issue?

    People power = LGBTQ marital rights = OBAMA '08!

    by kevinspa on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:23:03 AM PDT

  •  "The program" (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ben masel, mcmom, RickMassimo

    Yeah, the "program". Have we started talking about Data Mining yet? It fucking amazing to me that so many people can sit around debating so many unknowns. And it's about US! It's US! And our privacy that's at issue here!

    I'm telling you it's not about the Telcos! It's about TIA, which the American people had already ruled on. And it's about programs that existed prior to 911. This is about government crimes!

    RIP USA, July 9, 2008

    by plok on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:23:25 AM PDT

  •  they want it so bad (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcmom, RickMassimo

    Why? Because this is the 21st century version of Nixon's Dirty Tricks: surveillance of the opposition during an election.

    They need and want everything they can to support doing everything illegal they are and will be doing, and to go after anyone who attempts to expose it.

    Besides, this is the one thing that can send Bush and company to Federal prison, and will if it all comes out.

    What the Democrats (and democrats) should do every single time they can get a snippet of media time is say "the illegal surveillance program started in February 2001"

    If the unwashed masses ever realize that this was started before 9/11, started the very moment Bush/Cheney took power, the game is up.

  •  Rockefeller (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Five of Diamonds, JeffW, zerone

    He might as well be an AT&T employee, the way he's been acting.  

    I just posted a diary about Rockefeller's ties to AT&T/Verizon.

    Not that anyone should be surprised...

  •  Any indemnification agreement signed by Bushco (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Windowdog, mcmom, JML9999

    is null and void. The President has no power to appropriate funds, and the telco lawyers knew this.

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:24:30 AM PDT

  •  Punt (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcmom, zerone

    punt punt punt. And after 2008 heads better roll.

    RIP USA, July 9, 2008

    by plok on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:24:43 AM PDT

  •  2 weeks until (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcmom

    International Conference on Computers, Freedom, and Privacy May 20-23

    http://cfp2008.org

    Meet me in New Haven.

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:27:59 AM PDT

  •  What a crock::: (0+ / 0-)

    This is what happens when you take impeachment off the table::

       House Republicans are considering a new strategy to break the deadlock. A media shield bill — introduced in the House by Cong. Mike Pence (R-In)d and Rick Boucher (D-Va.) — passed the House in October by the overwhelming vote of 398-21. [...]

       House sources say that the combination of the House bill and the Senate FISA bill could penetrate Pelosi’s wall around FISA. Those sources also said that the media shield bill is a "must pass" piece of legislation this year because the Democrats reportedly are under enormous pressure from their media pals to pass the bill.

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson

    by ezdidit on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:28:41 AM PDT

  •  Any compromise on FISA ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    zerone

    ... that comes from the White House or the GOP was almost certainly written by telco lawyers.

  •  We all know their compromises. Mukasey Alito etc (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcmom

    Their compromise technique is to go as hard possible to the right and then wait for the magic word to do its work.  Democrats love compromise, don't they?

    The problem is, you can't compromise with bullies.  Their thought process doesn't allow for it.

    The Democrats continually underestimate the American people while the Republicans patronize them.

    Make the hard calls, draw the line in the sand.  That is the way to win respect, period.

    "The law of love will work, just as the law of gravitation will work, whether we accept it or not...." -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by waydownsouth on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:29:41 AM PDT

  •  How is substitution not disaterous? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Hiro

    I know people want to finally get the Bush Admin on the record for all the crap they've done. But the Telco's violated the privancy rights of millions of Americans for YEARS. They had no legal right and must be made to answer for that in a court of law.

    Letting the Government step in would be a complete sham. We're a nation of laws, or at least we used to be.

    "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." - Thomas Pynchon

    by Windowdog on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:30:34 AM PDT

  •  WHY even address this until after nov??? (0+ / 0-)

    WHY craft a compromise with THIS senate and THIS house make-up?  WE, the American people stand a better chance of having OUR rights protected, rather then the telecoms rights, IF WE WAIT until after the upcoming elections!!

    So WHY are democrats even addressing FISA now?  I just dont get it!

    The CONSTITUTION is MY Flag pin

    by KnotIookin on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:30:35 AM PDT

  •  Word to the Wise from Missouri (0+ / 0-)

    Don't trust Kit Bond as far as you can throw him.

    How would you like to be represented by this guy?

    As I sail against the tide, for what I believe is right.

    by Toes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:37:37 AM PDT

  •  Unfocused?!? (0+ / 0-)

    Saying the Iraq "Surge" worked is like saying Thelma & Louise had a flying car.

    by JML9999 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:37:51 AM PDT

  •  Then there's no need for a compromise (0+ / 0-)

    ...let the next Congress and Administration hash it out.

    Rubus Eradicandus Est.

    by Randomfactor on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:38:52 AM PDT

    •  Better: let federal courts hash it out. (0+ / 0-)

      The Wiretap Act's already on the books. if it's to be amended in the next Congress, it should be to create new statutory privacy protections, ie on the location data collected by the cell system.

      Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
      Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

      by ben masel on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:50:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If the phone companies don't pay damages... (0+ / 0-)

    ...then there is no deterrent against future lawbreaking by companies on behalf of the govt.

    Whether it involves more wiretapping or extraordinary rendition or torture, the companies will be assured that any damages will be paid by the taxpayers.

    No new FISA bills!

  •  Indemnification with discovery is perfect, (1+ / 0-)

    because it would separate the telcoms from the Administrtation politically.  Get rid of telcom opposition and the Administration's political cover in Congress is greatly weakened.  Thus, it is a very tough flank attack on Bush and the Administration.  I am glad to see you recognize it as acceptable.

  •  Congress should take the position that none (0+ / 0-)

    of these machinations would have been necessary had the administration come to Congress in the first place with what they perceived as problems with FISA and what they wanted to do fix them. The administration has still not made clear what it perceives as the problem with FISA and is not cooperating with Congress to resolve the "problem". This, along with the retroactive immunity demand, implies that the administration has engaged in illegal activity and is attempting to cover it up.

  •  jellyfish (0+ / 0-)

    Ran into a bunch of j-fish in Mexico once while snorkeling and got stung on my head and neck and chest.  Felt pretty bad for a couple of days. Went away fast after that, luckily.

    NetrootNews coming soon!

    by ksh01 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 10:59:44 AM PDT

  •  Perhaps a Stupid Thought, (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RickMassimo, apostrophe

    but can this FISA crap keep languishing in whatever committee it's languishing in until a, hopefully, Dem administration after the first of the year? After all, how much posturing and pontificating has gone on already? What's a few more months?

    "The Use of Unnecessary Violence Has Been Approved." Keith Olbermann

    by CityLightsLover on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:01:47 AM PDT

  •  Question about the cases going forward (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RickMassimo

    Ok, forget financial liability for the companies.  Personally I think it'd be nice, but whatever.

    If we go with the plaintiff's right of discovery (and it's in a public court), and it comes out in court that people or companies are guilty of CRIMINAL actions, can we still get them in jail/break the company up for illegal actions?

    Because I want those guys to spend a good 10-20 years behind bars for violating me and my country like this.

    •  Bush can, and likely will, pardon (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      RickMassimo

      on the criminal side. the civil damages, however, afre nothing gto sneeze at, $10,000 times perhaps 100,000,000 plaintiffs.

      Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
      Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

      by ben masel on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:15:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sometimes I think it's as simple as (0+ / 0-)

    they just cannot abide that they lost this one. They've lost on nothing of consequence in eight years.

    The above comment is probably disrespectful of John McCain's military service somehow.

    by RickMassimo on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:19:29 AM PDT

  •  ****Breaking Legal News**** (0+ / 0-)

    NLG calls for special prosecutor on bush administration and torture memos.

    diary here

    I never lie to any man because I don't fear anyone. The only time you lie is when you are afraid -John Gotti

    by Code Breaker on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:46:08 AM PDT

  •  No action before January 2009 (0+ / 0-)

    The approval of Attorney General Michael Mukasey should burn like a hot coal in the minds of Congressional Democrats who think they are smart and powerful enough to play with FISA before we have a new President and a new Congress.

    (I think it's unlikely the country needs legislative action on this before January 2009.)

    I realize there are lots of Republicans and some Democrats who want something through for their own reasons.  But, when I think of Congressional leadership going ahead with something like they did with Mukasey (which I thought at the time was reckless), thinking they are too smart and powerful to get it wrong, it sickens and saddens me.

    This time it's personal.

    by apostrophe on Tue May 13, 2008 at 11:46:37 AM PDT

  •  Redstate calls for Reps to contact Blue Dogs (0+ / 0-)

    Below is a good phone list. I'm going to call the Blue Dogs myself and congratulate them on not signing the discharge petition: No amnesty for telecoms!

    Here's what the email said:

    The "Blue Dog" Democrats are the conservative Democrats in the House of Representatives.  Twenty-one of the Blue Dogs signed a letter to Nancy Pelosi on January 28th urging her to move the bipartisan FISA legislation forward.

    The legislation would allow the government to eavesdrop on phone calls made outside this country to other people outside this country, but whose calls are routed through this country (the majority of international phone calls are routed through the U.S.).

    The Blue Dogs said the FISA legislation should include targeted immunity for phone carriers who help the government stop terrorists.

    While the Blue Dogs were willing to sign the letter to Nancy Pelosi, they have been unwilling to actually sign a discharge petition, which would bring this matter to the floor of the House without Nancy Pelosi's consent.

    Below are the names and phone numbers of the Blue Dogs who talk a good game, but fail to act.  Please call them and urge them to sign the discharge petition on H.R. 5440.

    Here is who Redstate.com identifies as Blue Dogs:

    Alabama  Bud Cramer  202-225-4801

    Arkansas  Marion Berry 202-225-4076
      Mike Ross  202-225-3772

    California Joe Baca 202-225-6161

    Florida Allen Boyd 202-225-5235

    Georgia  John Barrow 202-225-2823

    Illinois  Melissa Bean 202-225-3711

    Indiana  Brad Ellsworth  202-225-4636

    Iowa  Leonard Boswell 202-225-3806

    Kansas  Dennis Moore  202-225-2865

    Louisiana  Charlie Melancon 202-225-4031

    North Carolina  Heath Shuler 202-225-6401

    North Dakota  Earl Pomeroy 202-225-2611

    Ohio  Zack Space  202-225-6265

    Oklahoma  Dan Boren 202-225-2701

    Pennsylvania  Christopher Carney 202-225-3731
        Tim Holden  202-225-5546

    Tennessee  Jim Cooper  202-225-4311
        Lincoln Davis 202-225-6831
        John Tanner 202-225-4714

    Utah Jim Matheson  202-225-3011

  •  One disadvantage of naming the gov't plaintiff: (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mcjoan

    It will be easier to spin to Mr. and Mrs. Lo Info as an attack on the government by turrist-enablers who don't want to protect the children.  That's a minor thing I know, but I wanted to register the concern.

    McJoan, I've come to count on your eagle eye.  I appreciate this.  You deserve the honor of having been called out by name in the rightwing nutosphere.

    The constitutional crisis was over two years ago. It's been full-scale erosion since then.

    by geomoo on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:01:38 PM PDT

  •  Crazy (0+ / 0-)

    The disturbing world of the Daily Kos...In this world heads of telecommunications companies are more dangerous than Al Qaeda. Try a thought experiment...Imagine you were the head of one of these companies. In the environment after 9/11, if government officials came to you and said they needed help and that American lives were at stake, what would you say?

    The diseased thinking prevalent on this regrettable site are excellently encapsulated by this gentleman- "Because I want those guys to spend a good 10-20 years behind bars for violating me and my country like this."
    Seriously? You think you've been oppressed? How? Do you even know that anyone at all looked at your phone number, much less listened to a conversation you had (extremely doubtful)? Has this impaired your freedom, affected your life?

    In a world where thousands every day are still tortured and murdered by authoritarian governments, we have folks like this DailyKosite, who thinks he has been violated by intelligence officials who were trying to protect him. To all of you nutjobs, please show me one case where wiretapping etc. was used for political purposes, and I will be right with you in calling for the culprit's dismissal and trial. Until then, stop being babies and stealing the "victim" mantle. There are millions of real victims around the world who continue to suffer while you and your sad ilk whine about imagined oppression and urge us to stop being "arrogant" and buddy up with the world's real oppressors.

Permalink | 67 comments