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OT - I Had No Idea They Still Killed Puppies

Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:02:27 PM PDT

I Had No Idea They Still Killed Puppies

I live in New York where, for the most part, we have no-kill shelters for dogs and cats. I have read statistics that New York puts down about 20,000 dogs a year, but many of them are ill or unadoptable due to a bad temperment. Those shelters that have to kill do everything they can to find homes for the dogs and cats, and really try to adopt out the young and healthy dogs. I always heard that we still kill about 5,000,000 animals a year (yes, that’s millions) but I thought of it as an abstraction. Until I got involved in dog rescue.

More below:

I just began in dog rescue. Many others have been doing this for years. It is heart-breaking work, expensive, gut-wrenching. Much of the rescue involves transporting dogs from the south to rescues or new homes. I have had nightmares every night since I found out about the slaughter in the south. As state senator in South Carolina dumped his pregnant dog at the high kill shelter because "she wouldn’t stay in her kennel." He got the dog from the shelter, and by law she was supposed to have been spayed, but she wasn’t. She got pregnant due to his lack of responsibility, and he dumped her back into a shelter with an 80% kill rate. Yes, 80%. Young healthy dogs, puppies, they all get killed. You see, many people in the south don’t spay or neuter their dogs, many let them run free, they make lots and lots of puppies, and the owners of the mother dogs dump the 4 week old puppies at the shelter, where they either die of parvovirus or are often killed for lack of any kind of attempt to adopt these dogs out. They also have outdoor facilities where they put the puppies, kennels that don’t even have a dog house, or a tarp over the pups.  Newborn pups with their moms die of the cold in the winter because they are housed outside. It is a disgusting, inhumane disgrace, and it is a dirty secret of these southern states.

Lots of rescues try to help, but the numbers are overwhelming. Last year, the shelter in Greenville County, South Carolina, got in 18,000 to 22,000 dogs and had a 71% kill rate. You do the math. I have pulled from this shelter three times now, and the dogs are wonderful: young, gorgeous, laid back, much calmer than my overbred northern dog. They have a new rescue director, and she is working wonders, but the story is quite different at most shelters in the south. The Charleston, South Carolina shelter, a brand new $11 million facility, still has a 50% kill rate, a fact that is not known by the community. Rural shelters run at a kill rate of 80 to 90%, and they kill 6 week old puppies, as well as young and healthy dogs. And don’t think that being a purebred saves a dog: black labs are killed at a much higher percentage than other dogs. Black dogs, in general, don’t fare well. Don’t ask me why – I loved my black lab.

Whose fault is this slaughter? I think there is plenty of blame to go around, but the responsibility lies first with the lawmakers, who don’t have strong spay and neuter laws and programs in place for the counties to follow. In many New Jersey counties, you cannot get a license for your dog unless you show that he or she has been spayed or neutered. In South Carolina, even if there is a leash law, no one enforces it. Funding needs to be made available for the counties to offer a low cost or free spay/neuter day, and the schools need to allow volunteers to come in to talk to the young people about how many dogs are euthanized when their family pet is not spayed. Shelters need to make it more difficult for people to drop off their pets. Why should tax dollars go to housing a family pet, a dog that family chose to bring into their life, and then killing that pet because the family tires of it? The pet owners need to take some responsibility for that pet, and perhaps could use some help with behavior issues or housing issues. This should be the focus of the shelters: teaching the community members how to be responsible pet owners, and helping them with issues, not just taking in pets everyday, and then killing them to make room for more pets that they will kill in five days. In my view, that is immoral. Every pet owner in this country should be aware of this, and be outraged that in a nation that calls itself humane, we regularly kill our best and most loyal friends, and the southern states should be ashamed that its "culture of life" does not extend to our four-legged friends.

I want to close with a story. I was pulling from the Greenville shelter, and I thought a few dogs had a day left, so I was frantically trying to find adoptive or foster homes for them, when I got an email that they had been killed. One dog was a small black lab mix, less than a year old: his name was Stanley. His picture showed him hiding in the corner, as if he knew he would not leave the shelter alive. I missed pulling him and he died, alone and in a cold, concrete shelter. I am dedicating my efforts in this to Stanley, and the 5 million Stanleys who die alone and unloved because their people were too ignorant or too irresponsible to do the right thing. This slaughter has got to stop.

(I am going to write to newspapers and magazines and try to highlight this slaughter. Any suggestions would be appreciated, although I am going to be out for a while this afternoon.)

Tags: south carolina, dogs, euthanasia, dog shelters, dog pounds, slaughter of dogs, spay, neuter (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 103 comments

  •  I volunteer in greyhound rescue (14+ / 0-)

    they kill puppies and adults, still and by the thousands.  Rescue groups do what they can, but sadly they can't rescue every dog.

    "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

    by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:09:40 PM PDT

  •  I'd like to find a way (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    balancedscales, BoiseBlue, browneyes

    to comment on this without sounded offended, but I'm struggling. I live in the south--that reprehensible group of people you seem to think have no morals or common sense--don't lump everyone together or you'll get painted with a pretty broad brush yourself.

    I don't mean to make light of this situation, but I'm more concerned about people in China and Myamar today.

    "...and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." --Barack Obama, January 20, 2009

    by jiordan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:11:15 PM PDT

    •  I am sorry you are offended, but the numbers are (6+ / 0-)

      the numbers. I can't do anything about typhoons and earthquakes, but I can do something about ignorance and irresponsibility. Why don't you help, too?

      My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

      by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:21:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't know anything about me (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        balancedscales, browneyes

        so rather than get really angry, I'll just ask why you think I'm not helping? Again, don't make assumptions. You might be asking that of someone who's been working in shelters and for the Humane Society for the past 25 years.

        "...and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." --Barack Obama, January 20, 2009

        by jiordan on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:26:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I apologize for my assumption (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          churchylafemme, mango, ColoTim

          I just assumed that when you said that you are more concerned about the people in China and Myamar today you were voicing disinterest in this topic. Which is fine. Lots of people don't care about this topic, or we wouldn't have 5 million pets put down a year.

          And BTW, why would you assume I am NOT interested in the people in Myamar and China? I can be concerned about more than one topic at a time.

          My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

          by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:57:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  the generalizations are the generalizations (5+ / 0-)

        Unfortunately, the situation you describe is not specific to the South it happens in other regions of the country. Not to mention, that you're taking information about South Carolina and applying it to the rest of the South.

        I support what you're trying to do, but the way you're expressing yourself isn't the most productive way to advance your mission.

        •  I'm sorry - I'm missing where adigal (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          mango, browneyes

          is slandering the south.  Isn't she just talking about the differences in animal control laws and enforcement?

          "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

          by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:41:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  oh wait - i see it now (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            churchylafemme, jiordan, Pager, browneyes

            i missed that one sentence.

            the southern states should be ashamed that its "culture of life" does not extend to our four-legged friends

            hmmmmmm.

            "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

            by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:44:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  see ... (5+ / 0-)

            I have had nightmares every night since I found out about the slaughter in the south.

            It is a disgusting, inhumane disgrace, and it is a dirty secret of these southern states.

            we regularly kill our best and most loyal friends, and the southern states should be ashamed that its "culture of life" does not extend to our four-legged friends.

            The only laws she is comparing is between where she lives and one county in South Carolina, yet these statements are addressed to the entire South and doesn't take into account that there are kill-shelters in other regions of the country such as the Mid-West.

            •  See above - and look it up - the southern states (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              opinionated, HeyMikey, Pandoras Box

              are where the rescues pull from - the Carolinas, Arkansas, Georgia, Tennessee, Texas. They are the states with horrendous kill rates. The mid-west has some problem areas, but nothing like the southern states. I will send you some statitics if you like.

              My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

              by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:01:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  then clarify it in the diary (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Pager, Pandoras Box, browneyes

                I'm not disagreeing that there's a problem in the South, I'm merely responding to what you said in your diary, where I don't see any mention of any Southern states other than South Carolina.

                If you present your findings in a more objective manner I think it would be more receptive to the audience you're trying to convince.

                •  Agreed. (0+ / 0-)

                  The generalizations in this diary are quite disturbing. There is a statistic that over 30,000 dogs are put to sleep in LA County. Just LA County. I can't remember if it's per month or per year but the amount of dogs being euthanized is staggering. This is not a problem that is strictly found in the South. It is found all over the United States.

                  Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                  by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:05:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The generalizations are true - how many people (0+ / 0-)

                    live in LA county? 9,948,000 people, that is how many. Over 9 million. And they put down 30,000 dogs. That is one dog per 300 people. The county in South Carolina that put down 15,000 animals has 300,000 people. That is a dead dog per 20 people EACH YEAR. This is an astounding number of deaths per person.

                    I am not saying this does not happen elsewhere; I am saying that something in the south makes it worse. I wish you could talk to the people I have spoken to before you dismiss this, and have the knowledge I have. It is much worse, per capita, in the south than anywhere else. Just a hard cold fact.

                    My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

                    by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:30:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Again, I am not dismissing you or your "facts." (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      balancedscales, meowmissy

                      I am pointing out that you might pick a better way to bring your cause celebre to our attention than by bashing the South, particularly when this is a national problem.

                      Oh and the 30,000 figure for LA County? I looked it up. It's per month, not per year. That's 360,000 animals per year. I don't think that's a figure to sneeze at, no?

                      Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                      by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:34:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  yep - i had missed that (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pager

              "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

              by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:21:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry - the south is where the rescues pull from (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          HeyMikey, KenBee, mango, ColoTim

          There are some bad shelters in Ohio, and in Pennsylvania, but the states with huge numbers of kill shelters are North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Arkansas, and Texas. Those are the facts. And I am angry about the dogs I see on the Put to sleep emails I get five times a week, so if I offend some southerners, I have other things I lose sleep over, such as the face of puppies being killed in the morning.

          New Yorkers solved their pet overpopulation problem, and I cannot solve the south's - they have to solve it. If enough people care, they can do it.

          My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

          by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:00:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please Stop Your Dreaming (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jiordan, balancedscales, meowmissy

            New York has not solved its pet overpopulation problem -- neither the metro area, the suburbs, exurbs nor the rural areas of the state.

            Walk through the cemeteries in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx, and you'll find plenty of stray dogs, some having formed into packs. Try the abandoned and run-down sections of Jamaica, Long Island City, Bedford-Stuyvesant, East New York, you'll see enough strays there to break your heart.

            Pick a town -- Yonkers, Hempstead, Riverhead, New Paltz -- nearly all have kill shelters.

            Go up to the Catskills and the Adirondacks and you'll find hundreds of feral cats eeking out their existence as barn cats or as target practice for some drunk hunter. A lot of dogs don't fare any better.

            Puppy mills flourish throughout Pennsylvania.

            Education is the first step. Making spaying and neutering available for free or low-cost can help. Not charging people who turn their pet into a shelter (I can't tell you the number of stories I've heard of people who would rather dump their pet than pay $15 to bring it to the shelter).

            Yes, the south needs to solve its pet overpopulation as well. But pointing fingers and going tsk-tsk isn't going to do it. There are plenty of rescue workers below the Mason-Dixon line; so, stop discounting the hard work these people do.

            The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. -- Mahatma Gandhi

            •  I will say that many rescues in the south (0+ / 0-)

              are run by transplanted northerners. Probably 4 out of the 5 I have come in contact with, just by chance.

              My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

              by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:31:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not here in Texas. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                pfeffermuse

                Every single one I know of, and it's alot, are born and bred Texans.  

                "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

                by balancedscales on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:42:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Four Out of Five? WTF? (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                meowmissy

                Uh, you do realize that there are let's see at least 13 states in the south (Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky)? Apologies for any states I've excluded.

                You've been in contact with an extremely small percentage of rescue groups. And considering the way you've fixated on South Carolina, I'd say your view is limited to one state.

                Don't dismiss the hard work, dedication and love that Southerners also feel for abandoned, helpless and shelter animals. Also, remember that in the South, they're more likely to be handling pets that you're not going to see in your rescue work in New York: rabbits, skunks, squirrels, ferrets, horses, ponies, donkeys, mules, cows, goats.

                •  I am just saying that every time I call a rescue (0+ / 0-)

                  or they call me, the person does not have a southern accent. I realize this is anecdotal, but the rescue groups tell me the same thing. And those rescue groups have been from North and South Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, and Arkansas.

                  And we do have rescue horses, ponies, donkeys, mules and assorted animals. We have a vet's office that even rescued a wild turkey who got hurt.

                  The defensiveness in response to this diary is a reason that things don't get done. It is easy to say, "Well, every other state is as bad as our's," and then feel good about it, but that is not the case. I don't know why the euthanasia rates are so much higher in the south, but I would love to find out, so I can try to help work on this.

                  My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

                  by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:12:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sadly, They're Going to Be Higher in Rural Areas (0+ / 0-)

                    Euthanasia rates for animals will always be higher in rural areas when compared even intrastate between rural vs city.

                    Whereas in metropolitan areas (cities, suburbs, exurbs) many people have companion animals, in rural areas those same animals are predominately working animals, be they barn cats or hunting dogs. Besides the fact that salaries are higher and more disposable income can be spent on pets in metro areas. In the rural centers, the economy is depressed, money isn't always available to spay/neuter, and a barn cat or dog that is no longer able to do its job is in many cases considered disposable. Barn cats are usually feral and may suffer from FLV or FIV, making them unadoptable. Older and retired working dogs are not what most people focus on when they look to adopt a shelter dog.

                    I don't know if you're referring to me or others concerning "defensiveness", but this born-and-bred New Yorker has been getting tired of late by the amount of folks being dismissive of the South. From the redneck, inbreeding comments about West Virginia to your comments that New York has solved its animal control problem -- which it hasn't -- while South Carolina, from your statements, is full of cruel and inhumane people.

          •  I'm not apologizing for the reprehensible (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jiordan, meowmissy

            behavior, but remember, many people in the south use their dogs as real, working dogs.  They breed them for hunting, running raccoons, coyotes, etc.  They don't view them in the same way that most of us on the side of animal rights view them.  They are to be used for a purpose, not companions.  

            My sister helps run a breed rescue here in Texas, and has been involved with rescues for many, many years.  I have helped her pick up dogs from all over the South and from lots of states in the midwest.  I know the pain you feel, truly I do.  

            That said, why do so many intelligent, well-informed progressives resort so quickly to regionalism?  

            I don't think that you're any smarter or elitist because you're from the North.  Why do you assume that we all love to kill puppies?  

            "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

            by balancedscales on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:29:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are using hyperbole - I didn't say you all (0+ / 0-)

              love to kill puppies. But you kill a lot more of them than we do.

              I am saying that attitudes have to change in the south. Am I a regional snob? Well, we have all no-kill shelters near me, upstate NY, and the only dogs in them are pits or pit mixes, so something is different.

              My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

              by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:33:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That was your implication, as witnessed (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                jiordan, Pager, meowmissy

                by the other comments upthread.

                Don't get upset when someone calls you on your own words.

                You could have written an incredibly informed and thoughtful diary without resorting to regionalism.

                And we have a lot of no-kill shelters here in Texas as well.  What's your point?  That you're better because you did it sooner?  Way to dismiss the work that thousands of Southerners do every day fighting the same fight you fight...of course, it's even harder here because we are fighting even more of an uphill battle, trying to create even more no-kill shelters.

                That's cool though, I'll just get back to my banjo playing right after I toss that bag of puppies in to the crick down yonder.

                "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

                by balancedscales on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:37:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, I'm having big issues w/ this diary. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  meowmissy

                  And I hate that I am because I think the premise here is one that is close to my heart. But, the stereotyping in it is out of control and blatantly untrue. I lived in Southern Illinois and they had an enormous amount of dogs euthanized. We were a college town and college kids would get a dog then dump it after graduation. Last time I checked, Illinois was in the midwest, not South Carolina.

                  I gotta get out of this diary. I'm starting to lose my patience and my temper with some of the ignorance and generalizations being shown here.

                  Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                  by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:45:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The figures are what they are, so go pretend they (0+ / 0-)

                    don't exist. This is why the south kills so many dogs: people get offended when it is brought up, and like to pretend other areas are just as bad, when they are not.

                    My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

                    by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:09:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with jiordan (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jiordan, balancedscales, Pager, browneyes

      about not painting the south with a broad brush.

      Cruelity is everywhere in ALL states and a lot of it is caused by ignorance. Don't paint the south as uglier. You may not be aware of those in your area, because they know who to hide it from.

      One thing is, if you raise animals to eat, you can't get attached to them and so that is probably one reason some areas are less sensitive to the feelings of animal, IF they are.  It doesn't make it right, though.

      In our county, you can't adopt a pet from the shelter, unless it has been spayed or nuetered.  They add the cost of nuetering on to the adoption fees.

      If you are low income, I think you get a break on the cost of adopting.
      When we adopted some puppies out, I was told, if they don't have the money, they could get it done free by some area vets. I don't know if the vets are paid by donations or if the spaying and nuetering are donated by the vets.

      I care about the people in trouble from natural disasters and in the wars, but there is room to care about the animals too.

      A lot of the time, if people will take care of their own area then that would do more to help than anything.  If everyone did right by the animals they own, there would not be many of these problems.  

      I have known people who treat their inside animals like they are human, but don't do much for their outside dogs.

      •  The southern rescues and shelters depend on the (0+ / 0-)

        rescues in the north to help them. There are not enough people in the south who are active in rescue, which is why, as I figured above, in one county there was one dog euthanzied per 20 people.

        300,000 people in the county
        15,000 dead dogs last year

        My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

        by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:35:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for your efforts (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    adigal, KenBee, mango, Pandoras Box

    After I went to New Orleans during the hurricanes for animal rescue I was so utterly depressed I volunteered at a shelter back home where I'm completely spoiled.  I volunteer at a no kill shelter and get to celebrate every time one of my guys finds a home.  

    I'm not sure my mental health would be sustainable in your position and I really admire you for your work, I know how hard it is

  •  Another problem, IMO, is puppy mills..... (8+ / 0-)

    There was a wreck north of Chicago several months in which a large number of puppies were killed. It described a place in Arkansas (Hunte Corp?) that was a large distributor of puppies in the south and midwest to places like Petland.

    Many of the puppies came from local breeders who, looking for some extra income, emphasized quantity over quality. I think that poor breeding and poor upbringing are responsible for many of the temperament issues that cause animals to be left at shelters.

    I volunteer at a local shelter and it does break your heart. Some of these animals are so messed up, I sometimes think it would be better if they were euthanized--no one will ever adopt them.

    I don't know if there is any legislative remedy--the practice is too widespread to be controlled unless there is a political will to invest the necessary time and resources.

    I would like to encourage people who are thinking of getting a dog or cat to avoid places like Petland or larger "puppy stores". Either work with a reputable breeder or go to a shelter--or go to a store that only carries animals from shelters--there are some in our area that sell puppies, but they work with local shelters as their source of animals.

    Let the word go forth from this time and place...that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--Obama '08

    by Azdak on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:36:29 PM PDT

    •  Puppy mills are big here in PA too. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      adigal, dazed in pa, KenBee, mango

      unfortunately.

      "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

      by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:38:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Puppy mills are terrible, but... (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      adigal, mango, lemming22

      please avoid all breeders.

      Even the "reputable breeders" who treat their animals well are still contributing to the overpopulation that leads to millions of animals being euthanized simply because there are not enough homes for them.  Please only adopt animals from shelters/rescue groups (and make sure they are spayed/neutered).  They are so many wonderful animals already out there looking for good homes, there is no need to purposely breed them.

      •  There is an incredible generalization. (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        opinionated, balancedscales

        There are many reputable breeders that raise puppies in loving, well socialized homes and they do it to keep the breed from being inbred, aggressive and overbred.

        I own a pet care service and also volunteer for my local humane society and I can assure you that your statement, while passionate and emotional, is also misleading and full of inaccuracies.

        Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

        by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:59:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please clarify (0+ / 0-)

          What was misleading or inaccurate?  Do you dispute that millions of cats and dogs are euthanized every year, a large portion of them simply because of shelter overcrowding, not behavior issues?  If you don't dispute that statement, do you dispute that purposely breeding them adds to a population that is already too large, thus leading to additional euthanizations?

          I wasn't trying to say anything like "all breeders are as bad as puppy mills".  I'm sure many breeders take good care of their animals.  The point is that regardless of the quality of the breeder, they are compounding an existing problem of oversupply and more animals are euthanized because of it.  Maybe we'll get the populations under control and this won't be the case in the future, but it is the case now.

          •  What was misleading? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            adigal

            Let's start with the first line of your comment.

            please avoid all breeders.

            Even the "reputable breeders" who treat their animals well are still contributing to the overpopulation that leads to millions of animals being euthanized simply because there are not enough homes for them.  Please only adopt animals from shelters/rescue groups (and make sure they are spayed/neutered).  They are so many wonderful animals already out there looking for good homes, there is no need to purposely breed them.

            There is absolutely no reason to avoid all breeders. Some folks like to get their pets from shelters. I am one of those people. Others like to get their pets from reputable breeders and there is nothing wrong with that, either.

            Let me explain to you what is leading to overpopulation and euthanasia of hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats each year--the half assed, half brained philosophy that many owners have about spaying and neutering. I know wonderful owners that refuse to spay or neuter their pet. Start your lecture with them. Reputable breeders usually insist that you spay or neuter your pet, unless you intend to show your dog.

            And again, one of the main reasons to be a breeder is a deep love of the breed. You certainly do not grow rich off of it...not by the time you are done paying for rounds of vaccines, wormings and emergency visits to the vet.

            And please feel free to give the lecture a rest. I certainly do not dispute that overpopulation leads to overflowing crowds at local humane society shelters. How do I know? I work for one.

            Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

            by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:30:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

              Most of the overpopulation is probably due to irresponsible pet owners, not breeders of the reputable variety.

              Anyway, I thought you were trying to say I was being misleading about the fact of overpopulation.  It sounds like you were taking issue with my view on how to solve that problem, and yes, our opinions differ.

              I'm glad to hear you work at a shelter.  I volunteered at one several days a week a few years ago when my work schedule was more flexible.  It was very rewarding, yet depressing to see many great dogs stuck there for months at a time.  It was a no-kill shelter, so they stayed until they were adopted, however long that was.  It would have been worse to know they would be killed if not adopted soon enough, but seeing a friendly dog alone in a cage for months was still upsetting.

              FWIW, there are breed-specific rescue groups all across the country who could help people find specific breeds, if that's what they wanted.

          •  Some people breed dogs because they (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Pager

            love and are attached to the breed.  Maybe they were raised around collies, or maybe they saw stories about ridgebacks when they were growing up.  Whatever their personal reasons for breeding dogs, to say that no one should breed them is dismissive of the real, genuine work that good breeders to in maintaining the health of the breed.

            Some people don't want mixed breed dogs.  I love them, but that's my personal decision, and to impose yours on someone else is unfair and short-sighted.

            "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

            by balancedscales on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:32:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I would love to breed Great Danes, but I won't (0+ / 0-)

            Not with this many purebred danes already abandoned. And there are danes each week on the put to sleep lists.

            http://www.magdrl.org/...

            Great danes in rescue above.

            My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

            by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:37:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's wonderful. (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pager

              And that's a personal choice you make.  

              However, when do you get to impose your moral authority and tell someone else what they can or can't do?  

              "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

              by balancedscales on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:43:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And that is really the bottom line here. (0+ / 0-)

                And the point I have been trying to make. Apparently, I haven't done a very good job of making it.

                We have enough government interference in every aspect of our lives. I don't need someone telling me what I can and cannot do when it comes to having a dog.

                Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:48:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you can't afford to bring your dog to a vet (0+ / 0-)

                  you shouldn't have a dog. Big Brother? Maybe. But we have 5 million pets put down each year, and I think people need to be way more educated about that before getting a dog, or breeding.

                  My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

                  by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:15:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So what about people who can't afford (0+ / 0-)

                    to take their children to the doctor?  Should they not be allowed to have their kids?  

                    You're still dictating other people's choices based upon your own personal view of the value of a pet.  Some people view animals differently, and though I happen to be on your side of that fence, I can't tell someone else that they're wrong.

                    I can try to educate them, but keep in mind, many of them feel as strongly about their view as your or I do ours....who's right?

                    "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

                    by balancedscales on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:19:48 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I didn't say people couldn't breed - wrong person (0+ / 0-)

                I just said I wouldn't breed. And that I think good breeders should take their dogs back, even if years later, for any reason whatsoever, and make sure the dogs are fixed.

                My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

                by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:14:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  sorry for the the confusion. (0+ / 0-)

                  I judge a breeder in part by whether or not they keep track of their dogs.  My sister says if something happens within five generations, the breeder should be held at least partially responsible, and I tend to agree.

                  There are good breeders, and there are exponentially more bad, bad breeders.

                  "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

                  by balancedscales on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:16:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for the info, (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Pager

              but I know a few dane rescues in N. Texas, and my friend owns two rescued danes.  

              There are plenty of people in the South who care for and rescue animals.  

              "My relationship with America does not fit on a damn bumper sticker" -- Crashing Vor

              by balancedscales on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:44:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know of some wonderful Dane rescues in the (0+ / 0-)

                south, too. Both of them are run by northerners. Why is that? I don't know. I am not trying to be accusatory here, but why so many from the north are running the rescues in the south. Is it cultural, truly, that dogs are not valued, as we value them?

                My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

                by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:16:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  was talking about dog issues earlier (8+ / 0-)

    Long  story short, my wife and I can't buy a house that we really liked in Prince Georges County, MD because this girl is part of our family:

    Photobucket

    One more Justice and John McCain gets his wish.

    by JR on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:40:19 PM PDT

    •  because she's a Pit Bull? (6+ / 0-)

      why?

      "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

      by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:41:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because many municipalities are outlawing (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pandoras Box

        them and because most insurance agencies will not insure your home if you own a Pit Bull, German Shepard, or Rottweiler. Some insurance agencies are also refusing to insure owners that have Dobermans or Mastiffs.

        Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

        by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:01:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ish - oh man, I am sorry to hear that. (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JR, opinionated, adigal, Pager

          I worked briefly at the Massachusetts SPCA and there were lots of pit bulls there - usually brought in because they weren't vicious ENOUGH!  They were the sweetest things.

          such misinformation - AND I own greyhounds - and the truth is, in spite of their reputation for being sweet-natured, there have been many incidents of them biting and aggression.  My own greyhound, Oscar, who has now passed, attacked me one day when I startled him from sleep!  Bit me right in the eye!

          "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

          by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:05:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have a couple clients that rescued greyhounds. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            adigal, Pandoras Box

            Those poor dogs, some of them, I should say, come to new homes with serious issues. They just start out being treated so horribly and some have difficulty adjusting to their new lives. I've seen alot of separation anxiety with these breed. Considering what they have been through before ending up in a loving home, I can't say I am surprised. Just saddened.

            Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

            by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:09:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've probably fostered in the neighborhood (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              adigal, Pager

              of 150 or so of them in the course of my "fostering" career and 90% of them adjust really beautifully - and they deserve their reputation for their sweet natures.  Like you say - especially with what they've been through.  I've never had a grey with separation anxiety, but I always have 2 or 3 other greys in the house.  That helps assuage that phenomenon.

              The injustice of this whole thing (forbidding specific breeds) lies in the fact that ANY dog, ANY breed or mix is an animal, driven by instincts, which drive them to act in ways that people don't always expect.  People become careless and then someone gets hurt.  But it's NOT the dog's fault.  It's human carelessness.  And it's not breed-specific.

              "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

              by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:26:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Amen to that. (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                opinionated, adigal, Pandoras Box

                90% of behavior that I work with is a result of human error. I do see some genetic components and it is typically in breeds that have been overbred or in breeds that were aggressive and the owner knew it and bred the dog anyway, passing on the aggressive genes to the litter.

                Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

                by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:36:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I applied for insurance and one firm refused (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          JR, Pager, Pandoras Box

          because I have the world's friendliest (disabled) chow mix. All they heard was CHOW - the other half is pure love.


          He's the one lying on the ground grinning.

          Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, John McCain opposition

          by SomeStones on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:42:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  because she's a pit mix, yeah (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pandoras Box

        She's a mutt, but her head is a scary shape, so it doesn't matter that her demeanor is calm and her disposition really sweet.  The law in Price Georges County is that a mutt with pit bull-like appearance counts as a pit.

        One more Justice and John McCain gets his wish.

        by JR on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:05:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That is absurd - and worse, so many of them (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JR, protothad, lemming22, browneyes

      end up in shelters, and don't even have a chance to get adopted. They are put down as soon as they come in.

      Keep looking for a dog-friendly neighborhood - and good luck!!

      My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

      by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:04:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mostly a fantastic (but sad) diary (9+ / 0-)

    One quibble.

    Shelters need to make it more difficult for people to drop off their pets.

    I'm not sure this is the best idea. I agree 100% with you about the irresponsibility that leads to a family "tiring" of a pet. In my house they're family not pets.

    However, if they can't unload the dog at a shelter, do you really think they'll keep the dog? My guess is they'll just end up abandoned as strays.

    •  yep - my brother in law lives out in the country (5+ / 0-)

      in Ohio.  Always getting cats and dogs dumped on their property.  :(

      "We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering!" - The Shoveler

      by Pandoras Box on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:46:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, I worry about this, but in some shelters (0+ / 0-)

      around here, you have to make an appointment to bring in your pet, and then you get counseling, to see if you need a trainer or an apartment that takes pets. And if they are full, you have to wait.

      The state should not be in the business of spending our tax money killing animals to make room for more animals that they will kill.

      My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

      by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:05:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Excellent point and dead on. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      adigal

      The shelter I work for makes it as easy as possible for a dog to be relinquished. If you make it difficult for them to give up the pet, the pet usually ends up as a stray, getting dumped in someone's backyard or worse...found dead in a ditch with a bullet in its head.

      Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar. Edward R. Murrow

      by Pager on Tue May 13, 2008 at 03:03:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Teaching children in school about the proper (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    adigal, Heiuan, lemming22, browneyes, maveg

    care and respect of animals would be helpful.  I taught Head Start for many years and always included this in our curriculum.  We had a local no-kill shelter bring over animals for visits, taught some training, taught our kids to treat pets with kindness.  We went to the library and selected tons of books about animals and their needs and feelings.  I think it is imperative to instill this kind of awareness in children so they grow up to be more responsible and caring pet parents.  

  •  Dogs Kill. That is the biggest reason for a Leach (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    browneyes

    Law, out in the boonies.

    City dogs ain't like that, but country dogs... dangerous things.

    Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

    by RisingTide on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:53:32 PM PDT

    •  No one listens to the leash law, most of the dogs (0+ / 0-)

      I have brought up have been strays, not owner turn-ins.

      My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

      by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:02:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dogs in the country do not kill (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      adigal, maveg

      We have only had one instance in Arkansas that I am aware of and they were strays that formed a pack and they were probably hungry. Or there could have been a killer dog among them.

      Neighbor dogs attacked our goats.  It was pitiful. I don't know what started them, but they had downed 7 of them and they were dead or dying and the dogs were not eating them.

      I ran them off by yelling and throwing rocks at them, then I called my husband and he came home. Some of the dogs came back and my husband shot those that did.  Once a dog kills, you need to destroy them.

      A leash law is bad in the country, because we need dogs for protection and tying them up kills most of that protection.  You can learn to use voice control on them that is better than a leash.

      It is odd to me, those who say they love dogs the most, try to get them tied to one spot all the time. I knew a woman who said she loved cats and she kept about ten of them in cages all the time.  That is no life for a cat.

      Some people just have to express superiority to others.  I know people like that, they do themselves no favors.

      •  It sounds like that woman... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        adigal, relentless

        didn't love cats, she loved to control them or be entertained by them.  Sadly, many people don't understand the difference.

      •  Maybe it's different in pennsylvania (0+ / 0-)

        I know someone who has been mauled by dogs. Those dogs for 'protection' seem to think boys on bikes on public roads are fair game.

        One dog dragged him back to his master, who shook his head and said something like, "that isn't good."

        Another incident involved being chased into a cave by a dog, and doing some impromptu spelunking -- three hours later, the dog was still there and growling.

        After that, he took to carrying a big stick, for thumping dogs that lunged at him (dogs are easy to hit, they just leap).

        I know someone else who got mauled by a Rhodesian ridgeback (as did his father), and would have been more seriously hurt if he hadn't have mounted up and ridden off.

        These weren't packs, they were solitary dogs.

        I do understand that if a dog is trained right, they dont' do this sort of thing -- thing is, not everyone trains their damn dog.

        Jesus ain't comin', go ahead and put the Nukes back now.

        by RisingTide on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:30:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  check out this site (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    adigal, KenBee, dotster, browneyes

    I'm totally with you.  I've rescued both of my dogs and both were slated for death -- one at a high kill shelter and the other's owner planned to dump her as a puppy in the woods.  For not herding pigs.

    She's a St. Bernard.

    http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/

  •  I run a no-kill shelter in TN. (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    adigal, KenBee, mango, meowmissy, maveg

    My husband is a musician, and we spend time between our homes in NV and TN.  (More in TN to be near our families and so our little boy can be near grandparents.)  I support the shelter through donations, the majority of which comes from a single source (who prefers to remain nameless), a famous staunch conservative radio talk-show host from out of state who would surprise the vast majority of Kossaks with his extreme generosity.  

    I agree that laws need to be strengthened.  I see too many sad cases.  I love the "mind your own business" mentality that the south is famous for, but this needs to be changed.

    blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

    by browneyes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:27:27 PM PDT

    •  Live and let live (0+ / 0-)

      is my mentality.  You can help, without enforcing cruel laws.

      •  What cruel laws? To keep your dog on a leash?? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Pager, browneyes

        To spay your dog, and have them licensed, and give them heartworm preventative.

        80% of the dogs we rescue over the age of one are heartworm positive, because the owners didn't give them  medication. If you cannot afford to care for your dog, you shouldn't have one. Also, many, many hounds are dumped at the shelter for being bad hunting dogs. That, too, is a fact. In fact, the same dog pound the senator returned his pregnant dog to may be soon run by a man who dumps his bad huntings dogs there.

        This is the reality and the laws need to be changed to protect those who are defenseless.

        My new bumper sticker: Cheney-Satan '08

        by adigal on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:44:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly, (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          adigal, maveg

          that is why you should not insist they be tied up.  At least they can find food and water scattered around the yard if they are free, but tie them up and many will be neglected.

          It is sad and cruel to tie them up to where they can't run and play and find food.  Dogs can eat grass if they are loose, but it dies around their leash area.

          I can't stand to see dogs tied up.

      •  What laws? n/t (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        adigal

        blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

        by browneyes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:49:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  How about more policy analysis? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    adigal, browneyes

    the responsibility lies first with the lawmakers, who don’t have strong spay and neuter laws and programs in place for the counties to follow. In many New Jersey counties, you cannot get a license for your dog unless you show that he or she has been spayed or neutered. In South Carolina, even if there is a leash law, no one enforces it. Funding needs to be made available for the counties to offer a low cost or free spay/neuter day, and the schools need to allow volunteers to come in to talk to the young people about how many dogs are euthanized when their family pet is not spayed. Shelters need to make it more difficult for people to drop off their pets. Why should tax dollars go to housing a family pet, a dog that family chose to bring into their life, and then killing that pet because the family tires of it? The pet owners need to take some responsibility for that pet, and perhaps could use some help with behavior issues or housing issues. This should be the focus of the shelters: teaching the community members how to be responsible pet owners, and helping them with issues, not just taking in pets everyday, and then killing them to make room for more pets that they will kill in five days.

    Is there some statistical analysis somewhere correlating particular laws to kill rates?

    I live in Cobb Co., Ga. -- my gut tells me anything that involves spending a significant amount of govt. money would be a non-starter, sad to say. Unless a case could be made that it would be cheaper than the current high-kill shelter.

    -4.25, -4.87 "If the truth were self-evident, there would be no need for eloquence." -- Cicero

    by HeyMikey on Tue May 13, 2008 at 01:53:24 PM PDT

  •  Our family cat had kittens (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    browneyes

    and we gave some of them away, but then she had some more, so we had eight kittens and cats. Spaying at that time wasn't done very often, although I did have her spayed after that batch.

    Anyway, I decided to take one of her grown kittens to a shelter, because he didn't seem to even like us.  I loaded him up and took him to the shelter. The kids were fine about it, until they put him in a cage.  They charged me ten dollars for leaving him.  I honestly believed they would find him a good home.  When we got to the car, the oldest one started crying and said she didn't want him in jail.  Then the others started crying.  We ended up going back to the shelter and I said I had changed my mind.  They charged me $20 to get him back.  I found out years later that this shelter drowned most of the animals left there. They said bullets were too expensive. I was sick about that. I always thought that the shelter would find their unwanted pets a home.

    I am so glad I did go back and get the cat. That would have been a mommie dearest moment for my kids, if I hadn't.

    •  Most of my pets were strays (5+ / 0-)

      I always get my pets fixed as soon as I get them, but sometimes it can't happen fast enough.  Several years ago a very friendly cat (a torty) wandered up to the house and insisted on being adopted.  By the time we got her into the vet for all the usual stuff, it was obvious she was already going to have kittens.  She had a litter of eight.  With her and the other two cats we already had, that was 11 cats running around our flat for a while.  We eventually found homes for all of the kittens as well as the mother... but yowza was that crazy for a bit.

      We are now down to two cats and a pitbull, and they are more than enough to keep us hopping.  The pitbull is actually at the bottom of the pecking order, if you can believe it.  :)

      Treasure each day like it will be your last, but treat the earth like you will live forever. -me

      by protothad on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:45:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The dog we have now was free (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        opinionated, adigal

        We answered an ad in the paper. They were going to give her to the shelter if they didn't find her a home.  She is half retriever and half shepherd.  She clears the yard of all squirrels when we go outside. We tried to make an inside dog of her, but she was too robuctious. We have a doggie door to the garage with a bed in there, but most of the time she likes laying on the front porch in her igloo dog house.  I put a lounge chair cushion in it. It was an accomplishment to get her to stop eating her sleeping quarters. I bought her the biggest size dog bed and she ripped & chewed it up. Then I gve her old bed clothes, she destroyed them too.  She hasn't torn up this lounge chair pad. It is cloth and washable. Perfect for the dog house. Hangs out just enough to give her a place to lay her head outside the door, so she can see what is going on.

        The only dog I have purchased was a pekingnese.  I loved that sassy little dog so much, but I have loved my strays and give aways just as much.  Mixed breeds are healthier, I think.

  •  We rescued our pitbull (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    opinionated, adigal, Pager, browneyes

    from near certain death, only because she is a pitbull and many shelters won't even try to adopt them out.  She is the friendliest, most gentle dog you will ever meet.  I can't believe the unfair reputation this breed has and the unfair treatment the dogs get because if it.

    Treasure each day like it will be your last, but treat the earth like you will live forever. -me

    by protothad on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:23:50 PM PDT

Permalink | 103 comments