Daily Kos

Obama said something that is not true

Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:30:16 AM PDT

Obama is my candidate, and has been since he won Iowa, and I started entertaining the possibility of him as president and decided I felt good about it.

Talking in West Virginia yesterday Obama struck a sour note.  I am happy to see him wearing a flag pin, or not.  I am happy to see him trying to connect with conservatives, even if most of them won't vote for him. When he is president, we'll all have to work together.  That is the most appealing idea of his campaign.

But when Obama implies that people opposed to the war in Viet Nam were disrespectful of returning veterans, he is buying into, and keeping alive, a falsehood.  

The American people were the same then, as now.  The American people, when they oppose a war, do not blame it on the young people sent out to risk their lives for the likes of Dick Cheney or Dick Nixon.  There are exceptions, of course, but they are very rare.

I participated in many demonstrations against the war in Vietnam, and got arrested once.  At the big demonstrations there is absolutely no question that organizers and participants were eager to embrace returning veterans.  The slander that it was otherwise was a propaganda invention of right wingers.

At speeches from podiums, the troops were respected.  Veterans returning were sought out and cultivated by the anti-war movement.

For a year, a returning veteran with severed post traumatic stress disorder stayed in my home.  He told me that when he was back in the states, in uniform, he happened to be walking near a big demonstration in Washington and he was cheered (with calls of 'Join Us!") a number of times.

Veterans were leaders of the anti-war movement.   Veterans were a huge part of the so-called counterculture.  The youth culture of the time had a strong egalitarian tendency.  For the second half of the war you could pretty much assume that a veteran was opposed to the war.  Veterans and non-veterans were together, a lot.  We hitchhiked around together, we smoked pot together, we loved the same pop music.

The lie that war opponents were disrespectful of returning Viet Nam veterans is an earlier version of the propaganda attack against Obama and his supporters - you know, Birkenstock wearing, latté drinking blah blah.  President (to be) Obama, please stop buying into the earlier falsehood.  It exposes you to the more current version.

All evidence I have about Obama -- his performance in the campaign, his book Dreams from My Father, the humor he injects into his public appearances -- makes me like him, and I am more enthusiastic about him than any presidential candidate I have ever voted for before.

But I don't like his breathing life into this old myth.  I think there is plenty enough true things you can say to connect with conservaties without having to do that.

Tags: obama, west, virginia, american, legion, viet nam war, myth, veterans, spit (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 113 comments

  •  You're saying that it never happened? (6+ / 0-)

    Even once?

    (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

    by doorguy on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:34:29 AM PDT

  •  I watched that speech. (4+ / 0-)

    But when Obama implies that people opposed to the war in Viet Nam were disrespectful of returning veterans, he is buying into, and keeping alive, a falsehood.

    He never made such a generalization.

    Sometimes the jokes write themselves. Sometimes they run for President.

    by Sixfortyfive on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:36:00 AM PDT

    •  here is what he said (10+ / 0-)

      i googled to find the text and found this, apparently an Air America site:

      http://airamerica.com/...

      The quote:

      One of the saddest episodes in our history was the degree to which returning vets from Vietnam were shunned, demonized and neglected by some because they served in an unpopular war. Too many of those who opposed the war in Vietnam chose to blame not only the leaders who ordered the mission, but the young men who simply answered their country’s call. Four decades later, the sting of that injustice is a wound that has never fully healed, and one that should never be repeated.

      I think intellectual honesty is a good thing.

      Politics is not arithmetic. It's chemistry.

      by tamandua on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:48:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm glad you posted this... (5+ / 0-)

        maybe it belongs in the body of the diary?

        I did not get sweeping generalizations from that section.  In fact, I had to go check who wrote the diary, because my interpretation of the section you posted here seems to contradict your diary...

        He says "the degree to which" and "too many" - do you disagree that this occurred and people are still hurt about it?  Seems to me like that's all he's saying.

        •  i believe that he was feeding (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Euroliberal, seabrook, hannahlk

          into the myth that this was the dominant response of anti-war protestors to returning veterans.

          i agree that the text can be interpreted as you suggest, but the context is that the myth is what has been propagated and widely believed, and the purpose can only be to appeal to this myth.  

          i do not deny anybody's individual experiences.  but i have a strong feeling about this because i watched the myth grow after the war and it made no sense to me that i would never see signs of it.  the anti-soldier sentiment was wholly absent from any circle i was in, and i travelled in a lot of circles.

          it is, in my opinion, just another version of republicans attacking democrats for 'not supporting the troops,' where supporting the troops means marching them off to be maimed and killed.

          the best way to support troops (if you look at troops as people) is to avoid war.

          Politics is not arithmetic. It's chemistry.

          by tamandua on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:10:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I lived it, I heard it, I saw it (8+ / 0-)

            you are entitled to your opinion, but Obama did not 'say something that is not true.'

          •  I completely agree... (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            elmo, Dem in the heart of Texas

            but I understand the premise of your diary to be that Obama said something what was not true.

            I don't see any evidence that he was lying.

            You may take issue with how and what he said, but to me that is far different than basically calling him a liar.

          •  How does "some" in Obama's speech (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            geejay, lizabroad

            become "the dominant response" in your comment?

          •  What seemed true to me to was (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sick of it all, geejay, sumo

            Four decades later, the sting of that injustice is a wound that has never fully healed, and one that should never be repeated.

            I don't know any who were spit on literally but they felt spit on on terms of being disrespected. (Of course Obama didn't say anything about spit on)
            I wasn't quite old enough to share the experience but have gotten to know many Vietnam vets in my work and life and I know they FELT shunned, demonized and neglected, in particular those who served after My Lai
            They did not feel honored. If they weren't outright treated badly their service there was like leprosy sores, some bad, shameful thing. People turned away. The government let them down.
            A job I had through the 90's involved three agencies and any of them could make referrals for me to work with their clients, but all agencies had to accept them. We had to fight to get those vets accepted because the people who decided at a couple of the agencies (government) would automatically reject them. They were the age of the vets but they'd say things about them not being stable enough, being too much of a hassle, having too many problems. hat was 30 years later!

            I understand not wanting the myths spread but I was glad to hear him speak out on their behalf. I watch the town halls on line and several times I've heard a Vietnam vet stand and share some of their issues. A Vietnam vet gave him that flag pin he sometimes wears. Since he  speaks to many veteran groups I imagine he has heard a lot of the stories that I have only more and worse.
            He could have been more careful to say liberals were wrongly blamed but probably speaking to vets only the vets were the point. It wasn't just Dems who didn't do them right, it was the country that made their hard experience worse.

      •  intellectually honest (12+ / 0-)

        There is absolutely nothing dishonest about Obama's comments.
        The myth is the often repeated anecdotes of antiwar activists literally spitting on returning vets and calling them "baby killers".  Those things may have happened in isolated cases but the right likes to make it sound like this was widespread.
        Vietnam vets, especially those who had problems adjusting back into normal life were, in general, shunned and neglected.  Part of the reason they were neglected was the unpopularity of the war and perhaps an attitude that those who went over there were partly to blame for the fiasco.

        •  And part of the reason they were shunned... (7+ / 0-)

          ... was because their time in Vietnam had driven so many of them crazy with PTSD and heroin addiction, and our government did not treat their PTSD or addiction when they returned, just dumped them into the general population like nothing happened.  That's one of the most shameful truths about that era, and something we have come very close to allowing to repeat in the present illegal war and occupation.

          "Without bitterness, all chocolate is a Hershey bar." -- Harry Shearer

          by tbetz on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:34:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't have a problem with that at all. (6+ / 0-)

        It's a fact.  Vietnam vets were blamed for the loss by people who were for the war, considered complicit in those who were against it, and just plain ignored by everyone else, including veteran's groups and the VA and our government.

        We're doing even worse for our returning volunteers now.

        Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

        by Inland on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:41:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  "shunned, demoralized, neglected" (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        elmo, drbloodaxe, lizabroad

        can mean a lot of things - like the fact that in many cases, their government didn't do right by them.   It doesn't necessarily mean spit at by protesters.

        Join us in the Grieving Room on Monday evenings to discuss mourning and loss.

        by Dem in the heart of Texas on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:43:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I mostly agree with you... (20+ / 0-)

    My late ex-husband was a Vietnam war vet.  He volunteered, only to quickly become disillusioned, and almost as quickly, wounded and permently disabled.

    He was vehemently anti-war when he came home. Still was when he protested Bush's Iraq folly, even taking our teenage daughters to their first protest (living overseas less opportunities!).  But he did tell me, with sadness, about being harrassed in a bar when he first came home, wearing his uniform when he was first discharged from the hospital, having nothing else much to wear until he reached home.  

    I've had others here try to paint him as lying about that, but I refuse to believe that, given how devoted he was to the anti-war movement shortly afterwards, and for the rest of his life.  I will accept that many have hugely exaggerated the number of such incidents, as well as mis-attributed it to anti-war protestors, when it may have occurred in a less common, less structured environment.

    Peace.

    (Sadly, in Kathmandu no longer.)

    by American in Kathmandu on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:36:58 AM PDT

  •  "SOME" DOES NOT IMPLY "ALL" (4+ / 0-)

    you people are pathetic. This is the laziest attack yet.

  •  My memory of that time differs from yours (22+ / 0-)

    I remember very clearly vets being booed as they returned--no ticker tape parades, no jubilant welcome (except from families and friends).  

    It was as though we were coming home with our tails between our legs because we didn't WIN, and that our heroes were somehow less for it.

    Were there exceptions?  Of course, as with everything.  But the battles that had to be fought to get them the health they needed rested, in part, on the unwillingness of the government to call it a WAR  (no war, no war benefits).  This is all part-and-parcel of a pervasive attitude that these vets were somehow less than the ones of the "great generation."

    •  thank you for this... (10+ / 0-)

      while I wish it never happened, somehow, particularly so soon after my ex-husband died, I find it painful to have so many people vehemently claiming what he told me was impossible.  He was a good man, a good Democrat, and completely against violence of any kind, and particularly war, for the rest of his life.  

      (Sadly, in Kathmandu no longer.)

      by American in Kathmandu on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:42:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  To put it most bluntly.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dem in the heart of Texas

      I remember very clearly vets being booed as they returned--no ticker tape parades, no jubilant welcome (except from families and friends). ... This is all part-and-parcel of a pervasive attitude that these vets were somehow less than the ones of the "great generation."

      The blunt truth is that you don't get the Hail The Conquering Hero welcome home parades ...

      ... unless you're a Conquering Hero.

      We were on the winning side in World War II, so our troops got the Hail The Conquering Hero parades.

      We lost in Vietham, so our troops didn't get the Hail The Conquering Hero parades.

      I'm sure the New England Patriots didn't get much of a parade after this year's Super Bowl.  And the Green Bay Packers (whom the Giants defeated to get to the Super Bowl) even less so.

      To get a victory parade, you need the victory.  No victory ... no victory parade.  Sorry, but there it is.

  •  I knew and worked with a lot of vets (4+ / 0-)

    as they came home. I was in the last draft lottery but wasn't drafted. I never once saw anyone disrespect a Vietnam vet. I'm sure it must have happened some but I never saw it. Hell they were our friends and neighbors. They didn't start the war.

    When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.

    by rmonroe on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:40:03 AM PDT

  •  REVISIONIST HISTORY! n/t (4+ / 0-)

    But not this year. Not this time. This year we can't afford the same old politics. Obama 4/18/08

    by Feliks on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:40:20 AM PDT

  •  TROLLING FOR SOME SMALL JOY (1+ / 4-)

    Recommended by:
    Lava20
    Hidden by:
    dhonig, HairyTrueMan, malharden, SpamNunn

    IN THEIR SAD LITTLE LIVES. IGNORE THIS PERSON

  •  We do need not to buy into rightwing frames (2+ / 0-)

    and to call it out when it happens on our side. Ignoring it leads to, well, the Clintons...

    Which reminds me I have to write a sharp letter to one of my congressmen, Hodes, about his regurgitation of the "Iraqis need to stand up so we can stand down" bullshit - yes, like they can "stand up" when we're standing on their necks, I'm angry because I promoted him after having met his son at a anti-war rally, he should know better.

    "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

    by bellatrys on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:46:57 AM PDT

  •  My teacher in high school said the same thing (10+ / 0-)

    She is very liberal and was probably part of the anti-Vietnam protests, and she said they had not treated veterans as well as they should have.

  •  It did happen in a big way. There were no large (15+ / 0-)

    crowds like today today to meet the troops when thet come home. No bis send-offs in school gyms either.  I had several friends that went to that war and they were not greeted with pride or supported when they came home.  Mostly they were ignored.  I suggest you know what you are talking about before you open your mouth.

    Boycott all Corporate Media with dishonorable journalistic standards. Obama vs McCain 2008

    by psdunc on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:53:53 AM PDT

    •  I don't know what I'm talking about... (2+ / 0-)

      so I have to trust reliable sources.  Author Jerry Lembecke quotes studies that less than 3% of returning Vientam vets report any bad experience with protesters.

      In my view, when you consider that each "bad apple" protester probably offended more than one vet, then this puts this at well below the fringe.

      For the first time I have someone to vote for instead of vote against for President; although I still have that, too.

      by math monkey on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:03:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I saw both (7+ / 0-)

    What I saw most is the same thing that happens all too often today.  People ignored the returning vets at best.  And they are left to deal with their demons alone.  That is the worst of it and the thing we must not do.  

    After the first welcome home, don't forget to invite them to dinner, or whatever it is you do in your neighborhood.  Work to make them one of the gang again.  It can be the greatest gift you can give.  So many are isolated by their experiences.  They go to the neighborhood bar and find they can't identify with the day to day trivial things (compared to the surreal life they have been living) and end up alone again.  They needed us then and so many of us let them down.  

    "He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb

    by crazyshirley2100 on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:56:19 AM PDT

  •  Spitting was a myth - linky goodness (0+ / 0-)

    According to Jack Schaffer at Slate, discussing the book Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam by Jerry Lembcke, this is an urban legend.  Follow tth link for more info.

    For the first time I have someone to vote for instead of vote against for President; although I still have that, too.

    by math monkey on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:59:25 AM PDT

  •  Obama is absolutely correct (7+ / 0-)

    returning Viet Nam vets were treated badly. Are you trying to revise history?

    I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere ~ Thomas Jefferson

    by valadon on Tue May 13, 2008 at 04:59:48 AM PDT

  •  I think you're wrong (6+ / 0-)

    I know vets, and they were treated with disrespect. Maybe the spitting things is blown out of proportion, but my friend who was a vet tells me stories of coming home that would make you sick, and he is one of us. The only thing I would say is it was an incomplete statement, because the people who were pro Vietnam war treated the returning vets bad too, namely the U.S. government.

  •  My memory was different (12+ / 0-)

    As I recall, many of the people who opposed the Viet Nam war also tended express scorn and contempt for the troops. Particularly when news started getting out about atrocities like My Lai.

    I think the current anti-war protestors have learned a lesson from Viet Nam and are very careful to distinguish their opposition to the Iraq war from their support of the troops who are doing the fighting. But it was not like that in the 60's.

    I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies..

    by lesliet on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:04:16 AM PDT

  •  No WAIT ! Yes "Some" Were (2+ / 0-)

    I have seen TONS of documentaries and old footage from those days. I understand you might not remember. (jk). But , it did happen. They have people on tape.

    "Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well. " Barack Obama:A More Perfect Union

    by WeBetterWinThisTime on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:08:04 AM PDT

  •  Vietnam (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dem in the heart of Texas

    I respect all who protest and speak up, even those who do so in a disrespectful way because democracy is not perfect but it cherish on the voice of the people even those who you and I and others don't agree with.  But you have to call a spade a spade and Barack was right to say that some of the protesters during the Vietnam War were disrespectful.  

    Now I understand that Barack's action in regard to his statement on Vietnam is upsetting to you...but that is a good sign because you don't want a candidate who agrees with you 100 percent of the time.  

  •  I lived through that, and married a vet.... (10+ / 0-)

    and in those days, it was obvious who the soldiers were.  They were the ONLY ones with short hair, so even if they were not in uniform, they stuck out.
    And friends who were vets told me many times of walking through a public place and being called a baby killer.  In fact, when I asked one friend about it, he said, "Why should I argue?  It's true, we did kill babies."  

    Many people could NOT distinguish between hating the war and hating the people forced to fight it.  The way those soldiers was treated was a national disgrace.  It was NOT isolated instances.

    Break through the impassable barrier and get to know the opening beyond. -Fo-Hsing T'ai

    by dorothyinchina on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:12:56 AM PDT

  •  Stupidest comment thread I have ever seen. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    The Baculum King, stagemom

    What's so hard about Peace, Love, and Truth and Progress?

    by melvin on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:13:09 AM PDT

  •  Die Dolchstoßlegende (9+ / 0-)

    The canard that troops returning from the war were spat upon, spattered with bags of dog waste, etc., was widely reported - and repeated, and believed - in Weihmar Germany.

    It was all part of die Dolchstoßlegende (the back-stab legend), a trope that German troops won World War I on the battlefield, only to be stabbed in the back by their political leaders at home.  The "evidence" was that, even at the end of the war, the front lines still ran through France and Belgium, that is, the Allied armies had not even been managed to repel the Kaiser's troops, let alone invade the German homeland itself.  By that reckoning, Germany was "winning" when her leaders surrendered in November of 1918.

    Part and parcel of die Dolchstoßlegende was that the German people had then villified and disrespected German troops upon their return home.  The German people didn't respect the sacrifices the troops had made, blamed them for losing a war they had actually won ...

    ... any of this sounding vaguely familiar?

    After Vietnam, militarists in the U.S. wrote their own Dolchstoßlegende.  They said that U.S. troops had never lost a single battle in the entire Vietnam War, that every time North Vietnamese or Viet Cong forces engaged U.S. troops in a "stand-up fight," U.S. forces carried the day.  They said the U.S. forces would have defeated North Vietnam, if only they hadn't been "handcuffed" by politicians back home.  And of course those who protested the war were traitors who'd "given aid and comfort to the enemy," and probably deserved to be tried and executed for treason.  (Thus the "They deserved it" responses after Kent State.)

    And, as in Weihmar Germany, part and parcel of our Dolchstoßlegende was that troops coming home from the war were spat upon, that bags of dog waste were thrown at them, and so on.  The American people didn't respect the sacrifices our troops had made, blamed the troops for losing a war they had actually won....

    It was as if someone had done a global copy/paste from Weihmar Germany.  If you read closely enough, you can see whole passages lifted, but of course with "train stations" updated to "airports" and 1920s German epithets updated to 1970s American English.  The underlying theme was identical:

    Our troops always win, unless our politicians (or our people) give up.

    Ultimately, it took Russian and Anglo-American troops rolling over Germany - after Allied bombers had reduced German cities to rubble and ash - to erase die Dolchstoßlegende.  For it was not only factories, buildings, and homes that were shattered; it was also the German sense of martial invincibility.

    But in that blood and dust, rubble and ash, lay the seeds of redemption.  Convinced that they could no dictate terms to Europe by virtue of their martial invincibility, the German people and their leaders embarked on a different path.  Starting with ad-hoc agreements with the French over rights and profits from Alsatian coal mines, adding a little here and there as economic ties deepened ...

    ... what emerged from the blood and dust, rubble and ash was the European Union.  While most U.S. writers describe the EU as an economic entity, it began and remains - in the hearts of Germans and many others across Europe - a framework to ensure there would never be another major European war.  The beautiful statue in front of the EU Parliament building in Strassburg is an embrace of peace, not of the Euro.

    It's been said that "fools learn from experience, while wise men learn from other people's experience."

    Will Americans be fools, or wise men.  Will our exit from Iraq - like our exit from Vietnam - be painted as a Dolchstoßlegende or as an admission that we bit off more than we could chew?  And if our exit from Iraq is painted as yet another Dolchstoßlegende, will we only accept the reality when our cities are reduced to blood and dust, rubble and ash?

    Only time will tell.

    •  Very informative post (3+ / 0-)

      although I was already aware of this I still read it through.  

      I think you may agree, however, that what you've described does not mean that no one or no group ever treated a returning vet poorly.  WHile not having witnessed such treatment myself I absolutely believe in the likelihood that some incidents occurred.  Frankly, when people are angry they sometimes lash out in ways that they would not normally.  The incidents become mythically when the narrative states that the preponderance of incidents were harshly negative, offensive, even violent.  My guess is the majority of reaction was no reaction.  For someone who may have heard harsh words from a handful of people, and no reaction from the majority of people it would seem like "everyone" was in the first category.

      I think that experience feeds the Dolchstoßlegende and makes it stronger because the experience begins to match the narrative which then bolsters the narrative and so forth in a vicious cycle.  It is a blend of part reality part legend which often feels like all reality.

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:36:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "some incidents occurred" (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Dem in the heart of Texas

        Sure, "some incidents occurred."  Given over a million U.S. veterans returning from Vietnam to a population of (at the time) 250 million, it's very likely that "some incidents occurred."  It's also likely that "some incidents occurred" for troops returning home from World War II, and every other war we've ever fought.

        The primary gripe about Vietnam - and it's come out in this thread - is that there were no ticker-tape parades and the like.  The vast majority of the troops came home to no response at all (except from their families).  Not spitting or bags of dog waste.  Not cheering and flowers thrown.  Just an aching, sometimes angry, sometimes exhausted ... silence.

        But as I wrote above, the same was true for the New England Patriots after this year's Super Bowl, and even more so for the Green Bay Packers after their NFC Championship Game loss.  The New York Giants - who won both games - got victory parades.

        But the losing teams didn't.  That doesn't mean they didn't play well, that their sacrifices and efforts were less "heroic" than those of the New York Giants.  It's simply that the Giants won.

        No victory ... no victory parade.  Sorry, but there it is.

        •  Sorry, it's not just the parade. (3+ / 0-)

          Things like health care, support after being wounded, treatment for mental illness and drug dependency....there's a ground between a parade and being swept under the rug like dirt that people would rather not see but don't want to take the time to address.

          Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

          by Inland on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:54:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But but but (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Dem in the heart of Texas

            Republicans love the troops.  They are the only ones FOR the troops.

            History is full of examples of our Government "loving" the troops.  Bonus March anyone?  But they all love to tout their support of the troops.  We just can't read the fine print that gives the exceptions like except when they return home psychologically damaged because heck really they were probably damaged to begin with and isn't psychological damage just a sign of weakness or cowardice.

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:03:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Historically speaking.... (0+ / 0-)

            Troops returning victorious get better treatment from their people and governments than those who return home in defeat.  Is that fair or just?  No.  But it's true, nonetheless.

            And while we're on the topic, what about the very real post-war pain and resentment of the people who weren't in uniform?

            The people who had buried their sons, brothers, fathers, husbands, and friends ... only to find out the war had been an horrific waste, grounded in a series of calculated lies, foisted on a gullible population eager to relive the glories of a past generation, most of them the very same people who buried their sons, brothers, husbands, and friends.

            The American people of the 1970s were bitter.  Bitter at a government that had lied to them, abused their sense of duty and patriotism and honor, and stolen their loved ones' lives in a pointless, unwinnable war.  Bitter at themselves for buying into the "my country, right or wrong" meme, encouraging their loved ones to go Fight The Good Fight while villifying the (seeming) few who saw and told what was later revealed as the truth.

            We were A People Hoodwinked, and a lot of us were bitter and angry at our government for hoodwinking us ... and at ourselves for being so gullible.

            That is the civilian world the troops of Vietnam came home to.  And yes, sadly, that bitter, angry people "swept [veterans] under the rug like dirt that people would rather not see but don't want to take the time to address."

            Because looking at them, and taking time to address them, meant looking at ourselves and our mistakes, our gullibility, our eagerness to be part of a new Greatest Generation, our callow misunderstanding of what that cost in lives and blood and shame.

            The troops, of course, are The Heroes of the piece, and the people who thought they too were doing the right thing - only to find out they were woefully, horribly wrong - are The Villains for not giving The Heroes their proper care.

            It wasn't only the troops who were broken after Vietnam.  It was all of us.  And broken people too don't tend to each other very well.

            •  Color me non-plussed. (0+ / 0-)

              Troops returning victorious get better treatment from their people and governments than those who return home in defeat.  Is that fair or just?  No.  But it's true, nonetheless.

              Well, for the US, we're one for one, so far.  So forgive me if I don't see a pattern.  Fact is, the entire obsession with Vietnam...not the war, but with the domestic culture war borne of hippies and spitting on vets or whatever... is a boomer divide that is not the norm for this country or any other.

              It wasn't only the troops who were broken after Vietnam.  It was all of us.

              No, the rest of us had an era of unprecedented prosperity and freedom.  The particicpants and their families suffered. Conservatives say that the US was mortally wounded with the Vietnam Syndrome, the left that we lost our essential innocence, but even if true, it's not even in the same ballpark.  

              The troops, of course, are The Heroes of the piece,

              Of course.  It's them that are important, not anti war protesters of thirty years ago, and not whether Obama was fair to them.

              The entire diary is another nitpicking at the culture war, better left to Bush and HRC and the others who can't get enough of it.

              Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

              by Inland on Tue May 13, 2008 at 08:13:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  "It's [the troops] that are important?" (0+ / 0-)

                So only the troops matter?

                Puh-leeze.  The United States is not a military funding-and-honor support system.  "The troops" are not the only people who matter.  This is a militarist meme that has become so pervasive as to be transparent to most Americans.

                I'm a former Marine.  My middle son served eight years in the Navy, and my younger son was a Marine until his knees were torn up.  So I'm hardly from a clan of pacifists.

                That being said, we need to always remember that the military exist to serve the people, not vice-versa.  "The troops" are not the only ones who matter.  We all matter.  We all hurt when we bury our loved ones.  And yes, we do need to care for our wounded veterans - both those with wounds we can see, and those with wounds we can't.  But we also need to care for ourselves, and be more worthy of their sacrifice, by recognizing our own failures and ... sometimes ... the heroism of those who saw and spoke the truth before the war was over.

    •  Nail on the head, right there. (0+ / 0-)

      I think people are missing the forest for the trees here.  There were certainly anti-war folk who disrespected the troops (in a nation this big, and with an anti-war umbrella so encompassing, it shouldn't be a surprise).  And there were certainly anti-war folk who didn't.  What's more, everyone seems to acknowledge that the latter way outnumber the former.

      So why acknowledge the former at all, particularly in a campaign speech?  Because it feeds into the cultural myth of backstabbing, and it perpetuates a particular mindset towards war, soldiers, and protesters.  

      I'm certainly not suggesting that we pretend it never happened.  But if you're going to acknowledge that disrepect happened without contextualizing that disrespect (vast minority, not part of the mainstream movement, and nothing on the level of disrespect veterans received from their own government), then you're just feeding into the propoganda mill.  

      Don't forget: what people take away from tossed-off lines like these is that protesters hate troops.

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:31:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The flag pin (3+ / 0-)

    he wore the flag pin given to him by an Iraq veteran, I believe.  That is why he wore it.  

    I marched against the Vietnam War, too.  I'm proud that I did it.  We changed the the course of that war, and it was our collective actions and voices that made civil rights possible in this country.  

    I understand how the diarist feels about Obama yesterday; but we have to engage on these issues that continue to divide us and find common ground.  I always respected the soldiers.  There was a draft, for God's sake.  Not one single American didn't know someone who died in that war.  But there were activists who blamed the soldiers.  It's part of the history of the time.  

    We all want to emphasize what we like in history and negate what we don't.  It was a complicated time and looking at all sides of it is healthy.  

  •  You are wrong (7+ / 0-)

    Several have commented on this diary that they experienced it directly.  Try watching the PBS miniseries about Vietnam from the '80's, and you'll see it on film.

    The contempt with which the troops were treated by some is not a myth.

    Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

    by eparrot on Tue May 13, 2008 at 05:41:31 AM PDT

  •  I didn't hear what Obama said, and (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pico, Dem in the heart of Texas

    I am not knowledgeable about every minute detail of what happened at every Vietnam protest to know if there is any element of truth to the notion that there was disrespect (calling people "baby killers," etc)

    This is what I think.  Obama is only a few years older than I am and doesn't have first hand knowledge of the protests.  He may well have stated the point in a way that buys into right wing memes that distorted the nature of the protesters behavior for their own purposes.  Wouldn't be the first time the right has insinuated its narrative into the popular discourse and people like me have accepted it without even realizing it happened.

    Too bad it gets very hard to communicate directly w/someone after they are running for president!  My guess is that Obama would be interested to learn more nuance and open to hearing evidence that right wing operatives intentionally injected a particular narrative about protests.  Maybe John Kerry will talk to him about it sometime . . .

    In any event, I don't think anyone believes that Obama is some omniscient God.  I certainly don't. He's as vulnerable as anyone to believing CW on topics that he hasn't specifically studied.  And campaigning also has a way of wringing the nuance out of what politicians say, for obvious reasons.

  •  What were Obama's EXACT words? (2+ / 0-)

    I don't think anybody here is disputing the assertion that disrespect towards the troops occasionally happened.  The question is whether Obama was asserting that this was a common, everyday event.

  •  My Lai (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dem in the heart of Texas

    That was the only time the rank and file were demeaned.

    Lt.Calley for one, and rightly so.

    For a while some called the soldiers "baby killers".

    But only the far left radical nutjobs of the time.

    99% of the American people supported the troops.

    •  How do I know this? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dem in the heart of Texas

      I'm a Vietnam era vet.

    •  99% (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      carolinacal, BasharH, miss SPED

      99% of 160,000,000.

      This still leaves 1.6 million.

      Lets go to 99.99%.

      This STILL leaves 16 THOUSAND separate people demonstrating disrespect to the returning veterans.

      I can assure you it was a great deal more than one in ten thousand.

      •  OMG ... demonstrating disrespect??? (0+ / 0-)

        Whatever shall we do???

        Let's get over this damn militarist meme that civilians have no reason to exist except to fund and honor the U.S. military.

        The U.S. military didn't lose the Vietnam War.  The United States lost the Vietnam War.  All of us.  We all lost our innocence, our respect for our government, our self-respect (see My Lai), our sense of invincibility, our trust ...

        ... and a hell of a lot of our sons, brothers, fathers, and friends.

        We were all broken by that horrible war.

        And yes, broken people are often disrespectful.

        Get. Over. It. Already.

        This whole thread - and our national discourse since 1975 - has acted as if the only people who were affected by the Vietnam War were the people who wore a uniform and fought there.  Sorry, no.

        We were all wounded.

        And we were all disrespected.

        Get. Over. It. Already.

  •  This is BULLSHIT! (6+ / 0-)

    I typed up a very long message, full of angst, tragedy, and violence. Very disturbing, and one that brought back all kinds of bad memories.

    I deleted it.

    I will just say that I saw my dad get spit on, in 1970, while in uniform. He was coming home from Vietnam, and we met him at the airport.

    I was 13 years old.

    The original poster can drink a big glass of STFU.

    I SAW IT.

  •  it did happen from time to time (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Reel Woman, drbloodaxe, lizabroad

    my dad experienced it first-hand.

    It might not have been as widespread as the wingnuts would have you believe, but it did happen.

    When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

    by onanyes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:07:22 AM PDT

  •  Well... (10+ / 0-)

    My dad and uncles tell different stories.

    I was born in 1973, so I guess I should preface all this by saying I certainly have no first hand experience.

    My dad did two tours.  I've seen him cry exactly twice in my life.  The first was when my mother died.  The second was when we talked about his experiences in Vietnam.

    Perhaps it was isolated.  Perhaps when you're not much more than a kid, still trying to figure out what the fuck you just went through -- perhaps one person calling you a 'baby killer' seems like a thousand people to a twenty-something, who's left friends behind, who's seen things no teen should see.  My dad's always been an honest man.  We haven't always gotten along and there's a lot we don't agree about - but I trust him.  And if he tells me that, upon returning to the States after his second tour -- he was called a 'baby killer' -- I believe him.

    I don't know... I suppose that I'm pretty lucky that I'll probably never know firsthand.

    I do remember a particularly disturbing memory from my childhood.  We're from a small Indiana town, hardly a hotbed for liberal activism.  Every Memorial Day, we'd watch the town parade and follow the American Legion marchers to the town cemetery for a short ceremony.  I couldn't have been more than 7 or 8 - but I knew my dad had served in Vietnam, and I also knew enough to know what the American Legion was.

    I asked my dad innocently why he wasn't in the American Legion - why he wasn't marching.   A gentleman wearing a Legion hat, standing a bit away from us, but close enough to overhear said under his breath (whether to his buddy standing next to him or to us, I don't know) "because it wasn't even a real war - and they lost it, anyway".

    I looked at my dad in time to see him bite his lip and lower his head.

    Now, sure -- the gentleman certainly wasn't part of the 'anti-war' movement.

    ...but that's not the point.

    The point is that these were kids.  They no more should have been charged with losing the war than they should have been charged with trying to end it -- or fight it in the first place.

    I guess everyone's got their own blog now.

    by zonk on Tue May 13, 2008 at 06:07:53 AM PDT

    •  Good Post (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      zonk, miss SPED

      My dad retired just after he returned home.

      He was a Master Sergeant at the time, and he had been there, and done that.

      His frame or reference wouldn't allow him to accept what he was seeing. He wasn't a kid, he was 43.

      He never got over the hurt. Ever.

  •  Everyone is misreading is comments (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Inland, Triscula, doinaheckuvanutjob

    First of all, his comments were that vets returning from Vietnam were treated badly.

    Second, he made those comments in the context of himself discussing his commitment to Iraq & Afghanistan vets.

    Third, people are assuming his comments about vets being treated badly has to do with spitting or something.

    Fourth, his comments have more to do with the lack of institutional support to those vets and the abandonment of them culturally.  If people want to claim that Vietnam Vets were not abandoned, well for everyone who was born after the boomers, I can tell you that my whole life I have grown up seeing homeless, infirm and crazy Vietnam vets roaming the streets.

    Fifth, only boomers are still fighting over this crap.

    by debrazza on