Daily Kos

The Atlantic online & Antiwar.com: Obama and Israel

Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:44:48 AM PDT

Justin Raimondo has a column at antiwar.com about Barack Obama's relationship with the Israel lobby. He says "grovel" which may be unnecessarily inflammatory so I'll edit the diary title to include the Atlantic interview which was the point of the review.

I find this a bit perturbing. I am eager for an actual peace process, not a fig leaf. But is this fringe hackery?

Poor Obama. No matter how much he tries to placate the Israel lobby, they just won't take yes for an answer. The Lobby has been after him for months, trying to dig up "evidence" that someone with the middle name of "Hussein" is necessarily an enemy of Israel. The best they could come up with so far were the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's jeremiads, which didn't have much of an effect at the polls, as the North Carolina and Indiana primary results – and subsequent national polls – attest.

Now I think, as a supporter of Obama, that he needs to address Israel and Palestine.  More after the jump...and a chance to discuss whether this is beyond the pale and a link to Jeffrey Goldberg's Atlantic online article after the jump, which is what Raimondo is talking about.

Though Raimondo's arresting first paragraph does rivet one's attention, you wonder if he has destroyed his own credibility. But Raimondo's link in the first paragraph (under "for months") leads to a Haaretz article about Obama advisors and I don't find anything about the "Lobby" trying to discuss his middle name.
Because there's a serious allegation that follows:

Yet Obama still keeps trying to appease the Lobby. He's purged staff members who so much as looked cross-eyed at the Israelis, such as one poor adviser who meekly suggested that talking to Hamas might not be such a bad idea. He was out faster than you can say Mearsheimer and Walt.

Speaking of which: the Obama-oids have gone out of their way to distance themselves – i.e., "reject and denounce" – those two hate-criminals, even though, as Philip Weiss trenchantly avers, a book by Obama's point man on the Middle East says pretty much the same thing. In response to all this, Scott McConnell, editor of The American Conservative, dryly remarked: "At this point one wonders whether the people who deny the dramatic influence of the Israel lobby on American politics feel a little bit silly."

Here is the Jeffrey Goldberg article in The Atlantic where his first question to Obama is whether Zionism has justice on its side.

Fascinating stuff, and Raimondo salutes Obama for his nuance. But he asserts that won't be enough. He observes:

Goldberg has got him. The man who would talk to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hugo Chavez, and Raúl Castro won't deal with the elected government of Palestine. Why single them out for special disfavor? After all, the Cuban commies, for one example, have imprisoned and killed their internal critics, as have the Iranians. Chavez is no angel, either. Why a different standard for the Palestinians? He's acknowledged their suffering; why won't he recognize their legitimacy?

Obama cites his support of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in response. Is this how one establishes a middle ground of new politics?

Obama is here engaging the Lobby, challenging its claim to set the terms of the debate – and refusing to grovel. Good for him. The very idea that American and Israeli interests are in any way separable – and even, at times, in opposition to each other – is the Lobby's worst nightmare. For that would mean the end of our policy of unconditional public support – although, in private, recriminations abound....

Existential dread – that's what Obama evokes in the Lobby. They've had it easy during the Bush II era, with the American Netanyahu ensconced in the White House. Settlements? Go right ahead. The Wall of Separation? Higher, please. Assassinations timed to derail the "peace process"? Fire away! Those days will be over if Obama makes it to the Oval Office, and the Lobby knows it.

The great problem for Obama is that no matter what he does or says, the Lobby will fight him every inch of the way, and the smears will get more outrageous. The "he's-a-secret-Muslim" meme is just the beginning. The guilt-by-association strategy is by no means exhausted. How many penny-ante anti-Semites who spent two minutes with him shaking his hand, and would enjoy the publicity of being the focus of media attention, can be dug up between now and November? We'll soon find out.

Now is this the fault line of the American foreign policy debate? Will Obama address Israel and Palestine as intelligently as he did race?

If Iraq simmers, will talk of Israel and Palestine boil?

Discuss.

Tags: Justin Raimondo, Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, Israel, Palestine, Obama, AIPAC, lobby (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 125 comments

  •  That guy at antiwar.com seems to be (6+ / 0-)

    talking out of his ass. The radical right wing, not the Jews, were responsible for the Obama smears on Wright. I had no interest reading anything else he said after that.

    Come check us out at Strategy '08. Get all the information on Obama vs. the other guy.

    by smash artist on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:48:23 AM PDT

    •  The commenter said nothing about "the Jews" (5+ / 0-)

      only about the Israel lobby. Even if you don't agree that AIPAC, PNAC, Christian Zionists, and others make up parts of an Israel lobby, saying the words "Israel lobby" does not mean generalizing about Jews or even Jewish organizations.

      Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. -Barack Obama

      by klizard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:59:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The capitalized "Lobby" is still a bit too (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shpilk, dvo, another American, klizard

        monolithic for my taste.  Look out, the Lobby is watching you!

        And yeah, Raimondo's an idiot, this story is 90% BS as well.  Who's out there with the muslim crap, AIPAC or right wing groups?  Sure looks like the latter to me.

        •  I get that, but Raimondo slams Frum & Ann Lewis (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Jagger, notquitedelilah

          in his piece, so I am thinking he sees much of the MSM as part and parcel.

          Again, a point for discussion. He's fringe, but he brings up Walt & Mearsheimer. Interesting stuff, that dynamic.

          •  and a stopped clock, so they say .. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            zemblan

            Even Karl Rove utters something that is 'correct' once in a while.

            Even Dick Cheney [well, in 1994 he did say that invading Iraq would be a "ill-advised"]

            "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

            by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:29:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  seeing much of the MSM as part and parcel (0+ / 0-)

            Is the problem with his thinking.. "The LOBBY (jews) control everything!"

            The world is much, much more complicated than that.  

            •  Can't hear you..the pro-Palestinian press corps (0+ / 0-)

              keeps filling up my airwaves and flooding my newspaper.

              •  Ha, clever comeback, but, (0+ / 0-)

                That wasn't what I was saying at all and in fact illustrates the exact blind spot I was regarding.

                The press corps is a whole lot bigger than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.  Is there natural bias towards Israel?  Sure, given how you define it.  When one side is led by a bunch of thugs who shoot at fuel deliveries to their own people and launch rockets from their citizens' olive groves, knowing that counterbattery fire is obligatory, and the other is a democracy with all the attendant benefits and flaws who have tried to negotiate peace several times, even withdrawing from Gaza unilaterally, the press corps will identify more with the latter.

                But like I said, the press corps is a whole lot bigger than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and trying to cram a natural bias towards similar societies into the meme of "The Israeli Lobby Controls Everything" is flawed thinking.

                And you do see reports about human rights abuses WRT the Palestinians.  You don't see so many about abuses visited on them by Hamas, again part of our ameri-euro-israel centric reporting.  So it cuts both ways.

      •  You don't have to mention "Jews" (6+ / 0-)

        to exploit antisemitic memes. The Willie Horton ad never mentioned that Horton was black, but that didn't keep it from being a racist ad.

        In memory of Tom Disch.

        by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:03:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Also, yes, I realize the Israel lobby is not (6+ / 0-)

        the same thing as the right wing noise machine, but the idea of an "Israel lobby" means that defense contractors and other interests that are not Jewish groups at al (evangelicals, for example) push for certain policies re Israel. But I think it's easier for a lot of people to just shout "omgwtfantisemitism!" rather than seriously looking at the idea that Israel, with all our military connections to that country, may be the subject of serious lobbying.

        Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. -Barack Obama

        by klizard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:04:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think anyone doubts that Israel (3+ / 0-)

          "may be the subject of serious lobbying."

          What Raimondo is talking about is different than that, though. Raimondo is talking about "the Lobby" as all-powerful and unchecked in its hegemony over the American government and media. And that's just crap.

          In memory of Tom Disch.

          by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:08:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  why is that "crap"? (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Jagger, notquitedelilah

            numerous organizations operate openly as lobbyists for israel. some of these organizations are highly funded and most are incredibly well organized. the only way to check their influence would be to form a palestine lobby, but a palestine lobby doesn't exist. sure, there are some arab and muslim lobbies that occasionally speak out against israeli atrocities in the occupied territories, but that is not their primary purpose. some organizations exist that advocate for the palestinian cause, but they have hardly any money, influence, or organization. hence, those lobbyists who represent the israeli cause are, indeed, more or less unchecked and disproportionate in their influence. i hardly think you can call me an anti-semite for pointing this out...

            •  Where does that power come from? (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              another American

              The point is a very simple one. Yes, there are lobbying groups that support Israel. But where does their power come from? If there weren't strong, solid, consistent support of Israel from the American people - and not just Jewish ones - then the lobbyists could wave their hands all they want and have nothing to show for it.

              Gallup did a poll a few months back asking people to rank which nations are our allies and which our enemies. Israel was rated one of the five closest allies. The American people strongly support Israel.

              It's simply wrong to presume that Congress and the White House support Israel as strongly as they do only because there are some iron-grip organizations out there in effect forcing them to do so.

              In memory of Tom Disch.

              by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:44:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  American would stop their support (4+ / 0-)

                if they knew what their support did to Palestinians, and many Christian Palestinians.

                "...on the path of a more perfect union. ... ..." Obama

                by Ella H on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:47:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What their support did? (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  another American, leftynyc, zemblan

                  It's a conflict, one side is our friend and one side is hostile to us, what do you expect?  The aid money we give to Israel is part of their peace agreement with Egypt from the 70's, it's not "please fight the Palestinians" money.

                  And most Americans, when they hear the story, including Arafat walking out of Camp David and the monstrosities of the 2nd Intifada, particularly spring 2002, then they swing to Gaza, digest the 2005 disengagement and take a good long look at Hamas's record since then (opening fire on Israeli trucks delivering fuel to their own people is their new thing)..  well, most Americans can feel for the ordinary Palestinians and want west bank settlements scaled back while acknowledging that Israel doesn't have a whole lot of options if she is to defend her citizenry.

                  •  It is a conflict that (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    notquitedelilah

                    involved this country arming one side, and I don't think American are aware of all the issues at all. But things are slowly changing. Peace will happen eventually and all sides can live together because Americans will demand that. Americans will one day stop the huge money drain going to a war that is not their battle.  

                    "...on the path of a more perfect union. ... ..." Obama

                    by Ella H on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:03:25 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Again, the money is the result of (0+ / 0-)

                      The camp david peace treaty.  Egypt gets a similar sum, that's how we made it work, both sides got blood money, a familiar concept to anyone who's read a little about the history of conflict in the middle east.

                      Are you suggesting we cut off Egypt's money as well as Israel's?  CAuse that'd only be fair

                    •  Oh, and as far as arming only one side (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      leftynyc

                      We've given plenty of aid money to Palestinians that wound up purchasing guns, thank you very much.  You happy now? :)

              •  well... (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Jagger, Belvedere Come Here Boy

                ... if you believe that the power of and support for organizations like AIPAC, etc comes from "the American people" then you are woefully out of touch with reality. in reality, these groups are funded, like all lobbies, by a very narrow segment of society. i can guarantee you that if there were as many palestinians are there are jews in this country, and if they had the same organizational and financial prowess as groups like AIPAC, you would see american opinion towards israel change radically.

                •  So you're now saying it *is* the Jewish Lobby (0+ / 0-)

                  in reality, these groups are funded, like all lobbies, by a very narrow segment of society. i can guarantee you that if there were as many palestinians are there are jews in this country

                  Ah, so it is the Jewish Lobby, if that's where their power comes from. Is that really what you meant to say?

                  In memory of Tom Disch.

                  by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:00:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So tell me (2+ / 0-)

                    What does this lobby do then? If there was no need for it, and America is giving support without the lobby, then what is their purpose?

                    "...on the path of a more perfect union. ... ..." Obama

                    by Ella H on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:05:13 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  of course its the jewish lobby (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Belvedere Come Here Boy

                    american support for israel is largely attributable to how well the lobby is able to influence public officials and public opinion. if america naturally loved israel so much, why would a lobby even be necessary - let alone a HUGE lobby consisting of multiple different organizations?

                    likewise with the armenian lobby. most americans recognize what happened to the armenians during WW1 as genocide because the armenian lobby has pushed public officials and helped shape public opinion in favor of portraying those events as genocide. if all americans were able to clearly discern that those events constituted genocide, why would there be any need for a lobby in the first place?

                    lobbies are meant to shape public opinion. that's their purpose. if a palestinian lobby were as powerful as the israel lobby, public opinion would change. likewise if a turkish lobby were as powerful as the armenian lobby. this is only logical...

                    •  american support for israel (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      leftynyc, zemblan

                      is mostly due to natural empathy for a modern democratic state over one run by theocrats who produce tv shows of mickey mouse becoming a suicide bomber.

                      But that can't be right, then most americans would be disagreeing with you on principle!  No way could they be that dumb, and there's no way you're wrong, the LOBBY must be brainwashing them!

                      •  nonsense (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Belvedere Come Here Boy
                        1. the american public, like the public in any country, knows what it is told and what it is exposed to. there is hardly any criticism of israel in the US media or in the US government. as such, people have a positive feeling about israel. however, if more americans were made aware of what is going on on a daily basis in the occupied territories, i am 100% sure that that "natural empathy" would evaporate.
                        1. palestine is not a state, nor is it theocratic. indeed, the PA is 100% secular and even hamas runs a secular regime in its gaza statelet that does not enforce sharia law. the propaganda that hamas shows on its television stations is indeed grounds for legitimate criticism and should be deplored, but the fact that you would mischaracterize the nature of the palestinian authority suggests that you are either islamophobic or ignorant to the facts on the ground.
                        •  islamaphobic! Have you ever even been to the ME? (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          zemblan, bobisbob

                          Yeah I actually really like the current PA gov't, I think Abbas is legit, Fayyad is great and Olmert should be doing more things to bolster them.  Unfortunately, Olmert is extremely weak domestically right now which gives him very little space to make bold moves, and the nightly rocket attacks from Hamas in Gaza reaaaaaaaaaallllllly don't make it any easier for him.

                          As far as what happens every day in the territories... aside from the roadblocks, the West Bank is quite peaceful right now.  Not much fighting or abuses, just roadblocks and the fallout from continued construction of the wall.  I'd note both of those things are things Israel pretty much has to do, since they were implemented suicide bombings went from a near-nightly event to a once-or-twice-yearly event.  

                          Americans are pragmatists.  They appreciate what works.

                          And Gaza?  Lots more violence, lots more misery, some of it directly attributable to Israeli strikes.  And last week Hamas was shooting Israeli fuel trucks delivering fuel TO GAZANS.  So they can get useful idiots to wail and beat their chests about how the gazans don't even have any fuel.  This in addition to nightly rocket attacks on civilian towns with zero military value besides keeping the conflict going.  How the hell is Israel supposed to work with that?  Again, Americans appreciate things that work.

      •  Code words (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shpilk, another American, zemblan

        Read DHinMI's post.  Justin Raminondo is a raving anti-Jew conspiracy theorist.  The "Israel Lobby" is just his code word for Jew in this situation.

        Come check us out at Strategy '08. Get all the information on Obama vs. the other guy.

        by smash artist on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:05:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sure it is... (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shpilk, another American, zemblan

        Always has been. AIPAC is the most overrated lobby in Washington, and saying it "controls the government" is a code word for the "Elders of Zion"

      •  A dogwhistle is a dogwhistle (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zemblan

        "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

        by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:24:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's just anti-semitism. Dumb anti-semitism. (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shpilk, unfounded, zemblan, smash artist

    Waddyagonnado.  

    It's not clear to me why you'd use a diary to disseminate the author's inanity though.

    •  I know you, Belvedere. (4+ / 0-)

      You're good people.  

      So yeah, why the lengthy excerption of this hack?  What distinguishes it from garden variety hackery, which I took it as?

    •  what is anti-semitic about it? (4+ / 1-)

      i'm just curious. whenever a person - on the left or the right - criticizes israel, someone pops up and says "that's anti-semitic!" the article in question says nothing disparaging about jews whatsoever. it is, however, highly critical of the jewish lobby and israel's actions. does that make it anti-semitic? to assert so is absolutely ridiculous. the notion of there being a "jewish lobby" is 100% accurate. it consists of AIPAC, ADL, JINSA, CAMERA, etc. the list goes on and on. it is also correct to note that this jewish lobby is incredibly good at pushing its agenda. this is not to suggest that jews are forming a secret cabal and steering the USA's foreign policies clandestinely - they're just doing what all lobbies do and they're doing it particularly well. many of the organizations that comprise the jewish lobby are some of the best organized and best funded advocacy groups in the entire country. it would therefore only make sense that they have been incredibly successful at pursuing their policy agenda.

      it is true, however, that much of the jewish lobby's success is due to the fact that there isn't much organized opposition to its influence. have you heard of a "palestinian lobby"? i haven't. the arab lobby is mostly non-palestinian, fixated on oil revenue over social justice, and reliably corrupt. hence, the jewish lobby operates more or else without opposition. the palestinian cause is almost completely ignored by the united states and israel is left with a free hand to do just about anything it wants without strong US objections. these actions (i.e. brutal repression of palestinians in the occupied territories) in turn reflects poorly on the united states, which is widely perceived by the arab world as propping up the jewish state by giving it billions of dollars in military aid and sophisticated weaponry each year.

      the leading figures in the jewish lobby almost entirely went to clinton in the nomination contest. maybe one or two prominent figures went to obama. i assume they all thought, like most other people last year, that clinton was inevitable. woops. jews have gone strongly for clinton thus far (although they're not likely to switch allegiance this year like they did against dukakis). woops. israel was one of three countries where democrats abroad went for clinton over obama. woops. a lot of jews, as a demographic, don't trust obama. he once said that "no one is suffering right now as much as the palestinians," wright often notes that israel is brutally repressing palestinians (true, of course). this makes jews nervous, and that's understandable. a lot still don't trust him, and many of those people are very powerful.

      does pointing this out make me anti-semitic?

      •  There's an Arab American Anti-Discrimination (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        klizard, notquitedelilah

        committee. Don't know its budget etc but it doesn't seem, ahem, to have a huge reach.

      •  A fact free post, opinion based upon (3+ / 1-)

        Recommended by:
        another American, leftynyc, zemblan
        Hidden by:
        Jagger

        no facts whatsoever, just smear after smear after smear. Sort of like Raimondo.

        What's next, Protocols of Zion?

        "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

        by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:27:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Pretty simple (5+ / 0-)

        It's not antisemitic to claim that there are groups that lobby on behalf of Israel. Nobody would claim otherwise.

        But when you wrap all organizations supporting Israel all into one single conspiratorial entity, "The Lobby," and then assign them near-supernatural powers to control the government and the media and force people like Obama to their knees in abject servitude -- well, that's just "Protocols of the Elders" rebooted under a thin disguise.

        In memory of Tom Disch.

        by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:28:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  who said anything about "conspiratorial"? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Jagger, notquitedelilah

          these groups operate entirely in the open. they do what all lobbyists do - they make contacts with leading public figures in an effort to influence policy decisions. there isn't anything "supernatural" about this - it's basic civics. there is a jewish lobby, there is an arab lobby, there is a greek lobby, there is an armenian lobby, etc. yet, only when talking about the jewish lobby will a person ever be yelled at as being prejudicial and hate-filled. doesn't make any sense to me...

          •  You can't speak of "The Lobby" (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            shpilk

            without implying that the organizations within "The Lobby" are acting together in conspiracy. Conspiracy doesn't need to be secret to be conspiracy.

            The reason this is pricklier when you're talking about Jews is because one of the classic memes of antisemitism is that the Jews are organized in international conspiracy to control goverments, control the press, and to foment wars for profit. That's standard, main-line antisemitism. That's "Protocols" and "Mein Kampf," and countless Jews have died as a result of those lies.

            If there were a similar thread that, say, Greeks were organized into an international conspiracy to control governments, control the press, and to foment wars for profit, and countless Greeks had died on account of those lies, I'd imagine the Greeks would probably be prickly on the "Greek Lobby" claim.

            In memory of Tom Disch.

            by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:49:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  no one said... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              notquitedelilah

              ...that these groups comprising the israel lobby were all working together in unison. all that has been said is that they all work towards the same basic goal: to assure the security of israel and its nature as a jewish state. once again, you insert conspiracy and secrecy when none has been expressed or implied. this is highly insulting and undermines the pro-israel cause.

              in addition, both greeks and armenians have been accused of subversion and conspiracy and as a result have been ethnically cleansed (greeks) and fallen victim to genocide (armenians). yet i have never once heard a greek or armenian lobbyist object to the use of the terms "the greek lobby" or "the armenian lobby." food for thought...

      •  It's wrong to call these groups a "jewish lobby" (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shpilk, Jagger

        They lobby in the name of "the Jewish People," but that's their propaganda. A lot (maybe even a majority) of American Jews strongly disagree with groups like CAMERA, AIPAC, PNAC, etc. (American Jewish support for the Iraq war was iirc less than 50%,compared to 70% of Americans generally.)

        Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. -Barack Obama

        by klizard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:32:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But here's a key point (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          shpilk

          Taking the exact same meme -- an all-powerful hand that controls the government and media -- and calling it "the Israeli Lobby" instead of "the Jewish Lobby" doesn't do a damn thing to take away its innate antisemitism.

          In memory of Tom Disch.

          by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:34:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no one said anything about "all-powerful" (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            notquitedelilah

            you're inserting anti-semitism where none was exhibited. the israeli lobby is not "all-powerful", it is simply "powerful". just like the oil lobby is "powerful" and the labor lobby is "powerful". all lobbies seek to control the government and the media to the greatest extent that they can. this is just the nature of a lobby.

            •  Read this thread (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              shpilk

              It's all about how Obama is supposedly being clubbed into submission by a force would therefore have to be much stronger than he is. And if you're stronger than the nominee of one of America's two major parties, what could be more powerful than that?

              In memory of Tom Disch.

              by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:02:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  wrong again (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                notquitedelilah

                there is nothing in this thread about being clubbed into submission by anyone. if "submission" means strong support for the state of israel, then obama has already "submitted". this thread is about obama's problems winning support from prominent members of the israel lobby and convincing them that he is on their side.

                nor is there anything about any "force" being stronger than he is. jewish support is crucial to winning elections in the USA simply because american jews are incredibly well organized. as such, obama is trying, like all politicians, to court jewish support at the elite levels. this thread points out that he is struggling somewhat in his efforts and that there is still great distrust of obama among many prominent jewish leaders.

                once again, you're stretching reality to see anti-semitism where it isn't present. i truly wonder if such objections would be raised if the word "jewish" were substituted with "white working class"...

        •  doesn't change the fact... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Belvedere Come Here Boy

          ...that these organizations will continue to speak on behalf of all jews. hence, rather than being repudiated by the american jewish community, we are instead seeing new groups such as j-street form to try to displace AIPAC as the new voice of the american jewish community. doesn't really change the fact that all these organizations claim to represent jewish interests.

      •  Jews have *not* gone strongly to Clinton, btw (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shpilk

        Gallup in April gives it 50 to 43.

        In memory of Tom Disch.

        by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:32:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  With further observation, I'm troll rating this (0+ / 0-)

        comment for outright religious bigotry, and it's inaccurate, too. Obama has a quite a few Jewish people supporting his campaign.

        "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

        by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:21:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Jewish vote "against Dukakis?" (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shpilk, mcfly, unfounded, kidkavon

        In 1988, Bush I won 53% of the popular vote to 45% for Dukakis. The white vote went 59% for Bush, 40% for Dukakis. Jews voted 35% Bush, 64% Dukakis.

        Source: New York Times

  •  Do a google (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Adam B, shpilk, zemblan

    for "Justin Raimondo, Pat Buchanan". You might be surprised what you find.

    Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.

    by MBNYC on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:53:34 AM PDT

  •  It won't be Obama's problem (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    notquitedelilah, Ella H

    the Shrub said this week he'll have the peace accord by January  /snark

    These are all critical questions, but overall, I prefer the perspective that this is one major crisis in foreign policy that has never been resolved by an American president.  And given that we can bring pressure but not really shape the opinions on the street between the Israelis and the Palestinians, can we really expect to create the peace if the locals that have to live it aren't in favor?  I think he ought to focus on status of US President as being mediator, but not arbitrator, and recognize that core position of Israeli nationhood, security concerns won't change, and Palestinians will have land issues that will be hard to compromise even if they concede nationhood and condemn terrorism as a legitimate tactic.

  •  Imo Obama should (4+ / 0-)

    avoid the Israel issue as much as he can, there is no way he can out-pander the opposition.

  •  Raimondo is just whack on this (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    shpilk, smash artist

    Whatever sense he make on any other topic -- and it's little enough -- when it comes to Israel he becomes a froth-mouthed conspiracy theorist.

    The best they ["the Israeli Lobby"] could come up with so far were the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's jeremiads

    Oh, I see. That whole Wright bit was just the nefarious International Zionist Conspiracy in action, trying to turn an ally into an ally by smearing him. Do'h.

    In memory of Tom Disch.

    by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:58:20 AM PDT

  •  Why does Obama seem so insecure (8+ / 0-)

    about seeming neutral? This is the only issue I don't get with him. I know people say  he has to be strong ally of Israel to get elected. I just don't get it. What happened to being an honest broker. And can you be an honest broker if you say Israel is always right? Don't think so. I am looking for some explanation to the reasons he says these things.

    "...on the path of a more perfect union. ... ..." Obama

    by Ella H on Wed May 14, 2008 at 06:58:29 AM PDT

    •  * (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      notquitedelilah

      Which is why the column intrigued me. I think it's coming as the major foreign policy issue, unless of course Iraq/Iran blow up.

    •  For some people, being an honest broker is the (4+ / 0-)

      same thing as being 100% in support of Israel. (I heard that Al Gore made both claims around the time of his 2000 campaign.)

      By which they usually mean 100% in support of Israel's use of military force as the Israeli right-wing and some American groups want it to be used (meaning, a lot). As Obama said to a group of Jewish leaders in Cincinnati, Israelis have a much broader discussion about these things, they talk about stuff that would have been anathema in the American media discussion and still usually is, except maybe on NPR, sometimes. (They actually interviewed a Palestinian about the 60th anniversary of Israel's creation this morning. Yay.)

      Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. -Barack Obama

      by klizard on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:12:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your 'they usually mean' conclusion is (0+ / 0-)

        applies to the Bush administration, it does not apply across the board to all US politicians.

        "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

        by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:13:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Couched very carefully in words (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      zemblan

      that prevent firestorms Obama does offer the return to the 'honest broker'. Maybe, he's a bit too couched in his language. If that's the worst of his 'sins', it's not much.

      "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

      by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 08:00:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What evidence have you that (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      unfounded

      Obama is "neutral" or "insecure?"

      Unless he's dissembling, I understand Obama to be saying that he is not neutral: he strongly supports Israel's existence as a secure, democratic, Jewish state. He also strongly supports a peace settlement between Israel and the Palestinians based on a "two states for two peoples" basis. But he is clear that Palestinian maximalists will not be satisfied by what he supports.

  •  Groveling is not the answer (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jagger, notquitedelilah

    The article is right.  No matter how much Obama grovels to the AIPAC crowd, it will never be enough.  Meanwhile, do you see any politician pandering for Arab or Muslim votes in this manner?

    A proud member of the "far left."

    by Paleo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:04:25 AM PDT

  •  Obama should keep underscoring (9+ / 0-)

    the importance of resuming the peace process and settling the conflict between Israel and Palestine to try and achieve sustainable peace.

    He should repeatedly make the factual argument that peace is ultimately in the best interests of Palestinians as well as (if not more so) Israelis.

    He's done that to some degree.

    Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

    by NeuvoLiberal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:15:01 AM PDT

    •  Obama seems someone who would (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jagger, notquitedelilah, kidkavon

      have problems with supporting the pummeling of Beirut's civilian population with cluster bombs, building a wall that imprisons the West Bank and building settlements all over the occupied territories. I dunno, but he seems like he would empathize with the powerless in this situation. But he is more than empathizing with the powerful. That is odd.

      "...on the path of a more perfect union. ... ..." Obama

      by Ella H on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:22:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dean came under fire (3+ / 0-)

        for saying 'even-handed' in 2004, with the pitiful Joementum maliciously trying to paint Dean (whose lovely wife Judy Dean is Jewish) as being anti-Israel somehow.

        Dean responded with:

        Dean defends Middle East remarks

        Wednesday, September 10, 2003

        WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Under fire for saying that the United States should be even-handed in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, 2004 Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean Wednesday said he would not abandon the long-standing policy of strong U.S. support for Israel.

        The former Vermont governor said criticism of his remarks by presidential rival Sen. Joseph Lieberman was a "despicable" attempt to divide the Democratic Party, which has long enjoyed the support of many Jewish voters.
        ....

        I've since learned that that is a very sensitive word to use in certain communities, so perhaps I could have used a different euphemism. But the fact of the matter is, at the negotiating table, we have to have the trust of both sides. When you're at the negotiating table, you don't sit down and blame people when you're negotiating. There's a difference between our policy in Israel — which has always been supportive, including the willingness to defend Israel — and what you do at the negotiating table, which clearly has to have the trust of both sides. We do have a special relationship with Israel. We would defend Israel if necessary. I think that is well-known. However, we are also the only country capable of bringing peace to the Middle East, and when we sit at the negotiating table, we do have to have the trust of both sides or we will never succeed.

        I agree with Dean 100% on this. I am pretty sure Obama thinks along these lines (because it's just plain logical).

        Obama is probably being a bit too cautious because of Dean's experience.

        Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! His war hawking is why!

        by NeuvoLiberal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:35:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have to disagree with Dean a bit here. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          NeuvoLiberal, unfounded

          This

          "we are also the only country capable of bringing peace to the Middle East" is one of the problems the US has. The US is not omnipotent.

          We must get beyond this 'world policeman' mindset. I'm not an isolationist; but this unilateral minset is exactly what gets our asses into trouble, every time.

          I'll will guarantee that the *"US is one country that is capable of bringing war and destruction to the Middle East"*, however. We're good that way.

          "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

          by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:55:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe because the story isn't as one-sided (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shpilk

        as you portray it.

        In memory of Tom Disch.

        by zemblan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:36:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The key is re-establishing the US as an (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      NeuvoLiberal

      honest broker, interested in peace. Right now, we have Cheney's Energy Task Force people using Israel as a springboard, a fulcrum point in the fake GWOT.

      Once the fake GWOT is disassembled, the power of the fulcrum point will be diminished.

      "You know what the real fight is? The real fight is the definition of what is reality." Bernie Sanders

      by shpilk on Wed May 14, 2008 at 07:51:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You raise a delicate issue. (3+ / 0-)

    And I appreciate this diary. Tipped and rec'd.

    Obama has, so far, danced around the issue. Likely, that is because it's a fight he'd like to reserve AFTER the nomination. That seems a wise strategy, since Hillary would open herself to the same risks by raising it pre-nomination.

    In the General, though, this issue wi