Daily Kos

Are the econ stats cooked?

Thu May 15, 2008 at 09:51:02 AM PDT

The short answer is no. The longer answer is it that econ stats are widely misunderstood and easily abused for political purposes. So it really does pay to understand them.

First of all, this is likely to be a pretty dry, boring diary. Few subjects have the lack of zing as National Income Accounting. Even bringing up the subject raises images of Ben Stein droning on about "Fiscal and Monetary Policy". So, Ferris, you are excused. The rest of you-if I can beg your indulgence and your patience-you might find this be worth the time and effort it takes to understand this issue.

If you want to self educate go to The BLS website which does a good job of explaining many complex issues.

OK. Let's start with the obvious problem. It costs about $12 a tank more to fill up my gas tank than it did roughly a year ago. If I buy 1 tank of gas a week, that is $48 more a month. If you are unfortunate to commute longer distances, you gas tank bill might have gone up by something more like one to two hundred dollars a month.

So how can the BLS make the ridiculous claim that inflation was only 4% per year?

Let's look at it this way. Take all your expenses and add them up: food, groceries, housing, entertainment, etc. How much did all this cost you this time last year? How much does it cost you this now?

Let's say last year you spent $2000 a month and this year you find it costs you $2080 a month for the same goods and services. If in the meantime you did not get a raise, you are going in the hole by the rate of $80 a month (which is in fact exactly what is happening to a lot of people right now-especially those fabled low income, non college educated people voting for Hillary). Now let's say that you are not an "average" family-you drive more or less than average. You eat aragula rather than iceberg lettuce, or vice versa. How you experience inflation will differ.

Why? Because the CPI (consumer price index) is just that-it is an index of the **average** change in all prices for the **average** consumer. It measures just what it claims to measure.

In the meantime the unemployment rate measures exactly what it claims to measure. Economists have known and acknowledged for a long time that demographic and structural changes in the economy cause us to mis-estimate the actual severity of the unemployment rate. Add to this, we disagree about how serious it is to be unemployed (I would say very serious) and about what causes unemployment (I say simply put-lack of effective demand combined with major structural changes-i.e. deindustrializtaiom-in the U.S. economy).

What it does measure is changes and it has accurately picked up on the upward tick in unemployment.

Does the current situation feel a little like stagflation to you? Does "that 70's show" suddenly seem a little too familiar?

As it happens, the statistics are in fact accurately picking up on the fact that we are indeed currently experiencing at least some stagflation (rising unemployment and a rising inflation rate).

OK-now comes my Ben Stein imitation. Fiscal policy-changes in federal taxation and spending-helps to stimulate the economy directly. Monetary policy-changes in interest rates-stimulates the economy indirectly.

Through the combination of fiscal and monetary policy the government attempts to maintain some balance between unemployment and inflation.

Now, flash back to the 1970's. Carter appointed chair of the FED Paul Volcker decided to take on stagflation and enacted a monetarist experiment. Unemployment rose to 10.8% by 1981.

Now today, for all his other faults, Bernanke has decided not to be an alarmist about inflation. Instead, he has chosen to focus his efforts at keeping total spending from falling into the tank. And that is a good thing that progressives should be supporting.

Allright-if the picture is so good why do you feel so gloomy? Well, first of all, no one said the picture looked good. The stock market went up because people believe Bernanke isn't going to morph into Paul Volcker and start making us pay 20% for used car loans.

Second of all, nobody said the picture was good.

There have been major structural changes and the actual purchasing power of wages for many Americans continues to fall. It continues to be hard to find a job or to replace a lost job. This helps to explain why people in rural PA, WVa and Southern Ohio while not exactly bitter, are in fact frustrated and turn to what is familiar: Hillary Clinton as a symbol of good economic times.

Shilling for monetarism however is not going to solve the problems.

Progressive activists owe it to themselves to really understand what the CPI and the Unemployment rate do and do not measure.

Tags: Inflation, CPI, Economics, FED (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 74 comments

  •  I think they are cooked! (5+ / 0-)

    An 'overly aggressive' seasonal adjustment factor was used to convert an actual 6.5% rise in fuel costs into a slight price decline!

    WSJ's blog link

    Using an overly aggressive seasonal adjustment factor, the statistical magicians turned an actual 6.5% surge in gasoline prices into a small decline. I wonder if they can read the minds of very skeptical American motorists who are not fooled by this statistical sleight of hand! And like any good magician, the statisticians will make higher gasoline prices reappear with a vengeance over the summer months as the statistical magic trick runs in reverse making reported gasoline prices magically increase while prices at the pump decrease. –PNC

    harlnchi's diary

    •  even more the job-less stats (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dazed in pa

      They admit on the BLS website that they make up data about "assumed startup companies".  

      And after a certain # of years, if someone is still unemployed, they're no longer counted.  Only "active job-seekers" are counted.  

      •  There is no time limit (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dazed in pa

        as long as you are actively seeking work (the BLS uses a survey to get the unemployment rate).  If you want a more proximate reflection of what normal people would consider unemployment (it includes those discouraged job seekers, underemployed, and part timers who want full time, etc), check out U-6, which the BLS also publishes each month.

        •  unemployment concepts are really squishy (0+ / 0-)

          1. On making up data: for wonks who find this interesting, look up the "CES Net Birth/Death Model", which inflates job growth as we enter a recession.  

          "To account for this net birth/death portion of total employment, BLS uses an estimation procedure with two components: the first component uses business deaths to impute employment for business births."

          1. In order to be considered unemployed one must have made "specific efforts to find employment" in the previous month, which means contacting employers, not just reading the want-ads. Most chronically-unemployed people give up hope after a year and stop actively seeking. In addition, BLS excludes the massive US prison population -- one in US 100 adults are behind bars. In fact, BLS categories mean that the vast majority of U.S. residents who are not "employed" are either "not in the labor force" (about 77.4 million in 2007) -- a statistical no-man's land; or are not part of the surveyed population (about 70.6 million). In comparison, [only] about 7.0 million people were formally counted as "unemployed."
          1. This has been covered in various dKos diaries, e.g.:  

          "Unemployment numbers are shockingly bad"
          "The US has a 'real' unemployment rate of 13.3%"
          "Using truthiness to avoid a recession"

  •  Check out this article (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    polecat, TracieLynn, cometman, gmoke, carolita

    by Kevin Phillips

    http://www.tampabay.com/...

    where he discusses the "Pollyanna creep" of our leading economic statistics.  The basic issue is that our leading economic statistics - including inflation, employment, and growth - have all been goosed over the course fo the past 30 odd years to present a more favorable view of the economy.

    Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

    by johnny rotten on Thu May 15, 2008 at 09:59:29 AM PDT

    •  False Comparisons (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      johnny rotten

      I know that unemployment figures of today are compared to unemployment figures of decades ago which were figured differently.  The new numbers are not indexed to the old numbers so we always have false comparisons.

      This is probably something that also happens with the other important economic numbers.

      Years and years ago, my father taught me that you can't compare a dollar a hundred years ago to a dollar today without indexing for inflation and other changes.  The comparison is meaningless and worse than useless.  I learned that lesson well.

      Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at http://solarray.blogspot.com/2006/03/solar-video.html

      by gmoke on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:07:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Any economist will tell you the same thing (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SilverOz, sam storm

        $1000 worth of income today has to be "deflated" (adjusted for inflation) to the year you want to compare it to.

        In addition, any economist will tell you straight up that the CPI does not measure the fact that you are better off because you can buy blackberries and cell phones or post on Daily Kos or send e-mails for free.

        What irritates me about this whole discussion on Daily Kos is that it is anti-intellectual in tone.

        •  That's because there's nothing (5+ / 0-)

          "intellectual" about having the quality of your life change so dramatically over a few years due to rising costs ...as it has for some of us. Call it pedestrian, but the reaction can be quite visceral when you realize you've likely seen the last movie you'll ever see in a cinema, taken your last vacation that takes you more than 30 miles from home, basked for the last time in luxury of 70 degree heat at home during winter.

          Forget all the blackberry and cell phone crap -- it's been years since I've been able to afford such toys. For some of us it's literally becoming a question of being able to afford the basics for survival.

          So why am I posting to KOS instead of being out trying to better my situation? Well, I posted a diary around 4AM before getting ready to leave for work at 6am, have been busting my balls installing fence since 7am and 6 1/2 hours later am on "lunch" break with my thermos of coffee. Sue me if I take a moment to take advantage of one of the huge quality of life improvements that the economists can't quantify but rely on to keep me placated.  

        •  Who is the "intellectual" that we're "anti" about (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          johnny rotten, dazed in pa

          Disagreement doesn't mean "anti-intellectualism."

          Sheesh.

          What irritates me is when someone cannot take criticism and uses the word "shill" to describe the person/people doing the criticizing, thereby making any cogent discussion impossible.

          Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
          I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
          -Spike Milligan

          by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:36:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What I mean by anti-intellectualism (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            polecat

            Is an unwillingness to do the following:

            First, understand what the various aggregate measure actually are, why they were invented, why economists use them, the problems economists will frankly acknowledge exist with the aggregates and what the nature of the debate among economists is really about.

            Instead, people are sounding like Hillary Clinton railing against egghead economists because we insist on trying to actually measure and track changes consistently and put it into a theoretical framework.

            Economists are saying the economy is bad. Very few economists deny that.

            But we need to know why the economy is bad so we can come up with realistic solutions to deal with it.

            Monetary crankism is not the answer.

            •  That comment I can tip. have a +4. (0+ / 0-)

              No question.

              But I think it is fair to question the "official" metrics as well.

              Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
              I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
              -Spike Milligan

              by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:33:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  My college roommate IS an economist (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          johnny rotten, cometman, dazed in pa

          and HE told me about the Shadow CPI as well as Greenspan's "Substitution."

          Get real.

          Welcome to Argentina.

          Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
          I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
          -Spike Milligan

          by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:41:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Key paragraphs on inflation (6+ / 0-)

      Moreover, since the 1990s, the CPI has been subjected to three other adjustments, all downward and all dubious: product substitution (if flank steak gets too expensive, people are assumed to shift to hamburger, but nobody is assumed to move up to filet mignon), geometric weighting (goods and services in which costs are rising most rapidly get a lower weighting for a presumed reduction in consumption), and, most bizarrely, hedonic adjustment, an unusual computation by which additional quality is attributed to a product or service.

      The hedonic adjustment, in particular, is as hard to estimate as it is to take seriously. No small part of the condemnation must lie in the timing.

      If quality improvements are to be counted, that count should have begun in the 1950s and 1960s, when such products and services as air-conditioning, air travel, and automatic transmissions — and these are just the A's! — improved consumer satisfaction to a comparable or greater degree than have more recent innovations. That the change was made only in the late '90s shrieks of politics and opportunism, not integrity of measurement.

      Most of the time, hedonic adjustment is used to reduce the effective cost of goods, which in turn reduces the stated rate of inflation. "All in all," Williams points out, "if you were to peel back changes that were made in the CPI going back to the Carter years, you'd see that the CPI would now be 3.5 percent to 4 percent higher" — meaning that, because of lost CPI increases, Social Security checks would be 70 percent greater than they currently are.

      Furthermore, when discussing price pressure, government officials invariably bring up "core" inflation, which excludes precisely the two categories — food and energy — now verging on another 1970s-style price surge.

      Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

      by johnny rotten on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:14:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They are not cooked per say (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dazed in pa, lams712

    they are just not designed to deal with the situation we are facing today (rapidly and constantly rising energy and food costs) coupled with the declining prices of homes.

    On a side note, it looks like we will soon find out if oil is a speculative bubble, as Congress is considering limiting Americans from trading commodities on the EU exchanges (thereby driving up the prices on our exchanges, ala Enron) and the Fed may be looking at increasing margin requirements for commodity accounts.

  •  It requires combining different measures (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dazed in pa

    The problem is that people don't want to do the work to put it bluntly.

    The figure you are looking for is not a "cost of living index".

    The index you are looking for would be an overall index which would include multiple factors and be weighted accordingly.

    You can get this from the aggregate data but you have to work for it. If you put it together the aggregate data give us a very good picture of what is happening in the US economy over the last 30 years.

    A few samples:

    In the aggregate, **average** U.S. income (even adjusted for inflation) has risen.

    **Median** income, depending on which years you use has fallen.

    Income distribution has gotten much worse.

    If you are male and not college educated expect to earn less than your father.

    Average hourly manufacturing wages declined in real purchasing power over the course of this last expansion and the Clinton years were only a little better.

    Depending on which years you want to use, average houry manufacturing years for the last 30 years have either stagnated or gone down.

    Who is "winning" in this economy: People with high amounts of human capital (the college educated-especially in technical fields, CEO's and upper management of corporations, professionals-doctors, lawyers, etc.).

    When looked at with some care aggregate statistics give us a very good picture of what is happening.

  •  CPI is crap. (6+ / 0-)

    How about checking out the pre-Clinton CPI?

    The CPI systematically understates inflation, and therefore is used to overstate GDP and wage growth.

    I think you'll find that we're cumulatively WAY down compared to 1992.

    And, Volcker was right.  He did what was needed to do to fix the fundamentals in the economy and for the dollar.

    So we need Volcker back, but with a New Deal to rebuild the infrastructure in this country, and a green energy backbone to boot.

    You owe it to yourself to understand when you've been lied to (can you say "CPI?"  Gee, I knew you could.)

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    -Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:09:01 AM PDT

    •  I think this guy is wrong (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sam storm

      Measuring a fixed basket of goods is the wrong way to measure changes in cost of living.

      The correct most accurate way to do it is to chain prices for the entire GDP year to year.

      IMO, this is all shilling for monetarism.

      •  One more "shilling" type comment (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        johnny rotten, dazed in pa

        and I'll happily flame all over the place.

        Tell me that $0.82/euro to $1.62/euro doesn't translate to 100% inflation in 7 years.  Think you'll find that number in the cumulative CPI?  I didn't think so.

        Rule of 72:  72/7 = ~10% inflation.

        Bloomberg link.

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        -Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:31:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Because you don't understand (0+ / 0-)

          the difference between an index of import prices and an index of the CPI.

          Indexes of import prices are in fact picking up on in this devaluation.

          •  How about comparing a foreign commodity that (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cometman

            we must buy with our currency in competition with them?

            Look, we have a fiat currency -- meaning it is backed up by some kind of "consumer confidence".  But add to that the dollar has been the reserve currency worldwide and that is now changing.  It still means that for those things that have foreign exposure to commodity prices (food, energy -- conveniently left of the "core" CPI) the prices will rise.  And a lot.

            Since we manufacture less and less here, we're even MORE exposed to this increase in "import prices" as you call them.

            Furthermore, geometric weighting is the proof in the pudding.  Lower numbers are weighted much more highly that higher numbers are.  

            (a*b*c*d)/sum(a + b + c + d) is much different and usually lower than (a + b + c + d)/4, especially when these numbers move.

            So as a mathematician (yes, I'm a mathematician) I cry b*llshit.

            Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
            I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
            -Spike Milligan

            by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:31:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I suppose it depends (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        johnny rotten, polecat, dazed in pa

        on what one wants the results to be.

        Obviously the price of 8 track tapes shouldn't be included in the CPI 'basket' from year to year, but if the prices of essential goods which are consumed every year go up, then inflation has occurred. Period.

        "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

        by cometman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:38:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Shadowstats is garbage (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dazed in pa

      Williams doesn't recompute using new numbers each month, nor does he re-weight to catch the current spending patterns.  Look at the graph, his amateurish work is fairly apparent since the lines all track each other at a near constant rate, which wouldn't happen if you recalculated each point of data.

      And a Volckeresque approach would absolutely kill our economy.  You want to know when outsourcing really jumped, try when Volcker jumped interest rates up to obscene levels virtually forcing the outsourcing/offshoring of manufacturing.  

      •  So you like eating hamburger instead of steak (4+ / 0-)

        and presumably textured vegetable protein instead of hamburger?

        How about a dropping standard of living?  Does that make you happy?

        When you fiddle with the estimate of inflation, you have the ability to do the following:

        1. understate inflation
        1. pay less for entitlements
        1. make your growth seem more profound
        1. ignore whatever you want to ignore.

        Hint, volatility ISN'T volatility if it always goes up.

        Furthermore, much of the "boom" of the 90's was a direct result of the fiscal corrections that happened BECAUSE of Volcker.

        If we'd remained on a responsible track (and had that recession in '99) we wouldn't be where we are now.  Instead "Bubbles" Greenspan just lied about it and printed money like it was going out of style.

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        -Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:28:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The volatility argument really cracks me up. (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          johnny rotten, polecat, lams712

          If the price goes up more than what you want to claim inflation to be, just leave it out, and voila no inflation!!!

          And consequently, no need to be in any hurry to increase wages either.

          Just let 'em eat gristle.  That has protein in it too....

          "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

          by cometman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:41:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And if you took the time (0+ / 0-)

          To understand and analyze the data you would see that the data are indeed showing the falling standard of living.

          If you think "not printing money" is good and you want "deflation" as the solution then you can get used to not eating at all.

          •  It isn't as simple as that, and you know it. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            johnny rotten, cometman

            I agree wholeheartly that we have a falling standard of living.

            But the difference between "printing money" (A LOT OF IT, which is how Greenspan got through first the Y2K problem, the dot-bomb, and then the Asian currency crisis) and a responsible fiscal policy is profound.

            Furthermore, $3T of currency (and debt) appeared in the last 7 years.  You cannot say we were anywhere CLOSE to "deflation."

            Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
            I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
            -Spike Milligan

            by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:23:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  deflation is debateable (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              polecat

              While the price of gas/food/healthcare is up, the price of assets are dropping and the availability of credit is almost nonexistent.  We could easily be on the verge of real deflation should the credit problems not get fixed soon.

              Look at it this way, if food/energy continues to go up, then it may very well drive the price of everything else down as we stop purchasing non-essentials.  Couple that with the housing decline and you have deflation.

              •  In that people have less real money to spend (0+ / 0-)

                I would agree.

                But it is more complex than that.

                +4 anyway.

                I think we're violently agreeing with each other (or close to it).

                Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
                I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
                -Spike Milligan

                by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:36:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  What??? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        johnny rotten

        Williams doesn't recompute using new numbers each month, nor does he re-weight to catch the current spending patterns.  Look at the graph, his amateurish work is fairly apparent since the lines all track each other at a near constant rate, which wouldn't happen if you recalculated each point of data.

        Can you please explain what you mean here, what does "using new numbers" mean and what does re-weight to catch current spending patterns mean?

        He tracks the published numbers and also publishes the existing data using the same methodology that was used pre-clinton, he is using two different statistical processes, both developed by the government, not him...

        What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

        by laughingriver on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:37:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let me explain substitution this way (0+ / 0-)

          it is supposed to measure the cost of things actually being purchased and the assumption (and a correct one) is that if steak prices go up too much people will (and have) switch to hamburger.  What this means is that the CPI measures what people are purchasing, but that yes the standard of living went down (which CPI does not attempt to measure).  Another (extreme) way to look at it would be what if apples went virtually extinct, thereby driving the price of the now rare apple up to $20 each, should we still include apples in the CPI or should we allow them to be substituted with say pears?

          CPI is attempting to measure the change in price that the actual American consumer experiences, not the price it takes to maintain a specific standard of living (hell, they still include smokes in the CPI).

          •  That is completely understandable (0+ / 0-)

            The problem is that all of America hears about the CPI on the six o' clock news, without being given the specifics of how it is calculated.  

            That makes it a bogus statistic IMO which is more suitable for arcane discussions in an economics classroom that it is as a descriptor of how the American public is faring economically.

            In most people's minds, the CPI is a measure of inflation because that is the way it is presented to the public by the government.

            "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

            by cometman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:14:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The people know exactly... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              cometman

              what the hell is going on which is why the republicans are going to get their ass handed to them in November...

              What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

              by laughingriver on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:27:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I understand exactly what it means... (0+ / 0-)

            I am well versed in government statistics, I have been tracking them for years long before John Williams, whom I admire, started publishing his Shadow Stats through Gillespie Research.

            The BLS website itself says...

            Because the geometric mean formula is used only to average prices within item categories, it does not account for consumer substitution taking place between item categories. For example, if the price of pork increases relative to the prices of other meats, shoppers might shift their purchases away from pork to beef, poultry, or fish. The traditional CPI formula did not reflect this type of consumer response to changing relative prices. In 2002, as a complement to the CPI-U and CPI-W, the Bureau produced a new index called the Chained CPI-U (C-CPI-U). The C-CPI-U was created to more closely approximate a cost-of-living index by reflecting substitution among item categories. It is unlikely, however, that the difficult problems of defining living standards and measuring changes in the cost of their attainment over time will ever be resolved completely.

            John Williams and a score of other folks call bullshit on the entire practice of using substitution because it is subjective, assumptive, ambiguous, statistically unsound and subject to political manipulation.

            Which is why he publishes both methodologies to show what it would be if we were using the much more statistically sound methodology that was in affect pre-Clinton.

            It is a completely bs way of measuring prices making the entire series worthless...

            What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

            by laughingriver on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:24:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  New Cars or Food? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dazed in pa

    They look at a bunch of stuff. Food, fuel, and other basics have gone through the roof. People are hurting and making tough choices. When the second car's transmission goes, they're making do with one car instead of replacing the second car. So now no one is buying cars, so the price of cars has dropped, which gets factored in and dah-dum cheap cars cancel out expensive food and fuel. Except cars are cheap because no one is buying them. Housing prices are down, too. Because no one is buying. So cheap houses (but still overpriced) and cheap cars (but still expensive) average out really expensive food. Bread has doubled in price.

    •  Actually housing is up (0+ / 0-)

      because the CPI uses owner's equivalent rent instead of price (which was a great move to get a realistic and accurate picture during normal times).

      •  but, during the housing bubble it permitted (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        johnny rotten, cometman, dazed in pa

        them to say that everything was fine.

        Isn't that the definition of cooking the books?  Being able to find whatever indicator you like to meet the story you want to tell and harping on that one?

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        -Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:38:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, it is the definition of an anomaly (0+ / 0-)

          Since historically housing went up at roughly the rate of inflation, owners equivalent rent made alot more sense to measure the change in shelter costs (especially since most homeowners (again historically) obtained fixed rate mortgages so their payments never inflated).  What happened was a bubble in housing prices (which, if they measured price would have shown a huge inflationary spike that most of the country (who were in fixed loans) were not experiencing), that has now been followed by a deflation of housing prices (which again, if measured by price, would essentially show the economy in a bout of bad deflation).

          •  That was 20% year-over-year growth here (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            johnny rotten

            and looked downright ugly.

            But with interest rates low, it was possible for rents to stay low because it was easier to pay off that mortgage with lower rents.  Then, as interest rates went up, there was upside pressure on rents (and downside because people have less money to spend) and the homeowners/landlords are in a tough position.

            I think that rents did not tell the story accurately.

            But their low rate of change DID permit certain people to harp on them as "All Is Well."  (As in Niedermeyer.)

            Tulips.

            Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
            I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
            -Spike Milligan

            by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:07:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  "Are the econ stats cooked?" (6+ / 0-)

    Does a bear shit in the woods?

  •  In a word (0+ / 0-)

    No.

    They are complex, they are based on out-dated ways of looking at the economy and they are almost all lagging indicators.

    That makes them prone to misundertanding and spin, but it does not make them cooked.

    When we look into the Abyss seeking monsters, the Abyss also looks into us.

    by Something the Dog Said on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:21:43 AM PDT

    •  And in fact (0+ / 0-)

      If people would make some effort to actually learn what they are and are not they can be used to illustrate the very deep problems in this economy.

      It's bad enough that the media and Hilllary Clinton push ignorance.

      Progressive activists cannot afford sloppy thinking.

  •  Really (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    polecat, cometman, dazed in pa, lams712

    OK. Let's start with the obvious problem. It costs about $12 a tank more to fill up my gas tank than it did roughly a year ago. If I buy 1 tank of gas a week, that is $48 more a month. If you are unfortunate to commute longer distances, you gas tank bill might have gone up by something more like one to two hundred dollars a month.

    Gas Prices are up by about a dollar since this time last year and running almost $1.70 more than the price in October/November.

    I have a 30 Gallon tank, I'd be willing to bet that the national average per week is between 22 and 30 dollars, not the $12 you have mentioned.

    Also,

    Why? Because the CPI (consumer price index) is just that-it is an index of the **average** change in all prices for the **average** consumer. It measures just what it claims to measure.

    Actually there is a lot of statistical voodoo in play here, you should read through this to get a much better understanding of the games that are being played...

    What we do for ourselves dies with us, what we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. (Albert Pine)

    by laughingriver on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:28:38 AM PDT

    •  Let's break this down (0+ / 0-)

      And think about proportions and percents.

      I have a 15 gallon gas tank, so that was my baseline. If you have a 30 gallon gas tank (which also means you get worse mileage)then of course the dollar amount will be different.

      But if you start out with paying $400 a month for gas, and it goes up to $480 a month that is 20% increase in gas.

      If I pay $200 a month in gas and it goes up to $240 a month that is also a 20% increase.

      By what percentage (proportion) does this affect my income? It depends on how much I drive as any economist working for the BLS will be happy to tell you and as you can read on the BLS website.

      And again, very few people are saying the stats are good. And I'm trying to tell you it takes more than being pissed off to formulate a good policy.

      turning into Hillary Clinton and railing against egg head economists doesn't solve the problem.

      Learning some basic economic theory and what is useful and not useful about it helps us to come to better solutions.

      I have a lot in my own life I can rant about as well.

  •  Averages (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lams712

    The CPL is a faulty sytem, but there is no better one. (It might be pointed out that the official position is that gas prices did not increase from the month before. It doesn't deny that they are sky-high.)

    The "market basket" is supposed to represent what people buy, but -- of course -- what people buy depends on prices. Among other things.
    The total number of transistors made last year, priced at teh cost of transistors in the fifties, would be greater than the GDP for last year. Does that mean that the price level has gone down since the fifties?

    "I'm not opposed to all wars; I'm opposed to dumb wars." -- Obama in 2002

    by Frank Palmer on Thu May 15, 2008 at 10:33:03 AM PDT

  •  BLS says transportation dropped .7% in April. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dazed in pa

    Wow. That's news to me. Really like to know how that was computed.

  •  To answer the question: Yes, they CAN be... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cometman

    ...cooked. When I was a grad student a decade ago I learned some of the "tricks of the trade". Basically, in statistics (and econometrics, which is stats on steroids) one can build a model to say whatever they want to say and make it mathematically feasible, whether or not it reflects the real world.

    When it comes to offical government stats there are many flaws in those stats like how the "official" unemployment rate, inflation, and growth (notice how the preliminary numbers always seem to be "readjusted" later) are calculated.

    "...if my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine...." {-8.13;-5.59}

    by lams712 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:01:40 AM PDT

  •  But the problem is (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    polecat

    that we need to understand what the statistics do and do not tell us.

    The CPI is not a quality of life index.

    If you are saying the index is cooked, then that means that you think that the high numbers of economists who work for the BLS are innacurately reporting the raw data and innacurately compiling it.

    •  So let's start the debate over again (0+ / 0-)

      now that we agree our metrics are imperfect instead of trying to defend them.

      We're up a nasty creek.  Something that looks a lot like either the 70's or the Weimar Republic.  Certainly there are strains of "Herbert Hoover is Coming to Town" being played on the deck of the ship of state (while the chairs are being rearranged).

      How do we get a basis for this conversation?  And then move forward?

      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
      -Spike Milligan

      by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 11:39:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We start by (0+ / 0-)

        understanding what we elitist egghead economists are actually debating about.

        I don't recall if it is you or someone else wants to blame the problem on printing money. Then this same person some ways back conflated the fiscal deficit with printing money.

        And then this same person advanced the idea that we should stop money creation in its tracks.

        Again, whether it was you or someone else I'll make two points:

        1. This person is not addressing how money is actually created through the banking system (it isn't printed);
        1. This person is not addressing the consequences of having the whole financial system freeze up on us and winding up with 20% unemployment.

        I'll be amont the first to admit all kinds of problems with the economics profession.

        But I actually think National Income Accounting was one of the few real genuine advances. And notably, it follows as a consequence of Keynes' "The General Theory of Money, Employment and Interest" which beats the frackin' crap out of "liquidate, liquidate, liquidate" which is the practical consequence of what some people are advocating.

        •  To get back to the beginning for a moment (0+ / 0-)

          In my job as an accountant, I produce our margin reports on a monthly basis.  I know that the data that goes in is flawed for various reasons, so I tell our salespeople not to place too much significance on any one anomalous figure.  There may be valid reasons for the anomaly.  But the overall aggregate margin number, even though somewhat flawed, is a good metric as to how our company is doing from month to month, because the same (flawed) data goes in to the equation every single month.  We don't edit out the parts that seem to be somehow 'volatile'.  If the margin goes up, it may not measure the exact increase in profits, but it does tell me that we did better.

          I think that is where most of the disagreement with your premise is coming from.  The government does not use the same data from month to month, they pick and chose depending on the circumstances, rendering the numbers practically meaningless.

          "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

          by cometman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:00:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that's not what they do (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            cometman

            In fact, what they do is much like you describe you do.

            And also, there is a problem with media reporting of government numbers.

            •  I agree with the media problem. (0+ / 0-)

              From going over the comments here it seems part of the problem is the media presenting the CPI as something it isn't meant to be.

              But my main problem is that if the CPI isn't really a measure of how we are doing standard of living-wise, why does the government continue to use this figure instead of others it could use which would more accurately reflect inflation, and then give it to the media to spoonfeed to us?

              I do have a somewhat better understanding of what the CPI is meant to convey based on your diary, but because of that understanding I feel it is a pretty useless statistic unless you are in an economics classroom somewhere.  

              If it goes unchanged from one month to the next it could mean more than one thing.  It could mean that prices have in fact stayed stable, or it could mean prices have gone up and people's standard of living has simply fallen.  Those are two entirely different situations described by the same number.

              "The meek shall inherit nothing" - F. Zappa

              by cometman on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:59:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's not a **standard** of living measure (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                cometman

                It's a **Cost** of living measure.

                To attain the aggregate, **average** standard of living take:

                CPI this year/CPI last year=deflator

                Then, total GDP measured in this year's prices divided by the deflator.

                Then divide by population and compare to previous year's figure.

                That's the first, roughest approximation.

                To get fuller measures consider distribution of income, education, etc.

                And if you want to get fancy, measure environmental impact.

                Or if you want something, simple, short and sweet, look at what has happened to real **average** manufacturing wages.

                That gives you a pretty good indicator.

                The CPI is just one measure and is used in conjunction with many other things to formulate variuos types of economic policies.
                D

                •  Why not simply compute a minimum baseline (0+ / 0-)

                  "cost of living" measure, then, and watch what happens to it?

                  This substitution stuff causes all kinds of artifacts whenever it takes place.  Not the least of which is the inability to measure real inflation or compare time A against time B.

                  Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
                  I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
                  -Spike Milligan

                  by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:55:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think that was me. (0+ / 0-)

          I was railing against "bubbles" Greenspan for a loosy-goosey monetary policy, but I understand that we need to continue to have SOME degree of inflation or the wheels seize up (I'm not a gold-standard type by any sense).

          But Volcker's efforts (which should have been compensated with additional government spending on infrastructure and an effort to keep people employed) did make a difference in the health of our currency.

          Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
          I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
          -Spike Milligan

          by polecat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 03:54:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Two points (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            polecat
            1. You need to read "Secrets of the Temple":
            1. Volcker's policies (at least after 1980) were actually complimented  by a huge fiscal expansion which probably allowed the US to avoid an even longer and deeper recession. I actually think the policies of the 80's should have been reversed: tighter fiscal policy and looser monetary policy.

            Even better would have been reorienting the economy away from military spending.

            1. I think a point you are missing is that economic processes are non-ergodic. There really isn't a clear base line because at least in a modern economy a lot of basics change.

            OK, that was three but I decided to use Clinton math.

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