Daily Kos

Marriage: Who Owns the Trademark?

Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:07:58 PM PDT

The brouhaha raised by the opposition to Thursday’s decision by the California Supreme Court sounds like a trademark question. Who is legally entitled to claim the title of "marriage"? The court found that marriage among gays was not an infringement on the trademark.

The split decision by the court was not welcomed by everyone.

It was denounced by religious and conservative groups that promised to support an initiative proposed for the November ballot that would amend the California Constitution to ban same-sex marriages and overturn the decision.

These groups think that they own the trademark on "marriage." But do they, really? I heard several statements from spokespersons for several of these opposing groups and all said they were simply defending "the traditional institution of marriage." They assert that that we should not fool with an institution ordained of God that has meant the same thing for hundreds if not thousands of years. My question: which "institution of marriage" is covered by the trademark?

In the Judeo-Christian tradition, for which these self-appointed gate-keepers purport to speak, there have in fact been many different "trademarked" institutions of marriage. So my question is which of these old institutions of marriage represent "the institution" that shouldn’t be tampered with today and should be protected by the trademark "marriage"?

Bear with me. Many of you know most of this already, but you may have some cousins in California who have been raised to believe that there is and has been only one immutable institution of marriage, and who will have to vote on this issue in November. Maybe you’ll send this to them, or keep it for when the issue is up for a vote in your state again.

Looking to the Bible is not as simple as it is being made to appear. What the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament) suggests as a general model for marriage is polygamy – one husband with more than one wife. Women had little status in marriage and were in effect the property of their husbands. They could neither own nor inherit property and had no right of divorce. By the time of Jesus, monogamy had become the ideal, although polygamy was still practiced. Jesus’ pronouncements on marriage mostly address sexual injustices directed against women. In Paul’s view of the imminence of the end, he advocates celibacy. His view was that marriage is good, but in that time of crisis celibacy was better.  

By the third century within the Church, St. Paul’s words about celibacy became the foundation for the monastic movement. The importance of marriage between a man and woman was superseded by what was termed "a higher calling," which meant marriage to Christ by joining a monastic order and remaining celibate. This "institution of marriage" is not simply an ancient relic.

Elaine Roulet smiled back in time at her own sense of girlish idealism as she recalled the white bridal gown of 46 years ago, when she followed the chapel aisle straight toward the perceived will of God.

"It was so exciting, so romantic, to walk down that aisle as a bride of Christ and come back as a nun," said the 63-year-old woman, a Sister of Saint Joseph, stylishly gray now in checked suit and earrings as she survives as one of the toughest and most adaptive in the modern Roman Catholic church's rapidly dwindling ranks of the sisterhood.

This "trademark" is not only shared by Roman Catholics. Hear the words of this Baptist pastor in his article titled "I Am Married to Christ":

That very day I fell in love with Jesus.  I never knew him in that way before.  He had given a promise in his word, and that day he gave assurance that he would never leave me nor forsake me.  The very moment I believed, I was married to Christ.  He became so precious to me.  My love for Jesus Christ became much greater than for my former master.  My love exceeded the love of carnal things.  I became imbibed with his love to me, because I later learned that, before I loved him, he loved me.

My citing these statements is not to belittle them. They are statements made out of a long tradition. I simply want to point out that they are another—and not incidental—way the term "marriage" has been used in the Christian tradition that does not involve a conjugal relationship between a man and a woman. Is this tradition an infringement on the "marriage" trademark?

Marriage did not become a sacrament in the Roman Catholic Church until the 12th century. Before that time in Europe marriages were basically civil unions by town or village government.

The roles of people in marriage have changed dramatically over history, including the recent history of the United States. In the 1700s and 1800s married women actually lost many of their legal rights when they agreed to get married. After marriage they were not allowed to own property, pay taxes or sign a contract. It was not until the latter half of the 19th century that married women reacquired the rights they had when they were single. As late as 1920 a number of states still had discriminatory laws on their books. Are they to be included under the "marriage" trademark?

Another change came when laws forbidding mixed race marriages were successfully overturned. At one point, 40 states in this country forbade the marriage of a white person to a person of color. Marriages between whites and persons of color were decried as "immoral" and "unnatural". A Virginia judge upheld that state’s ban on interracial marriages saying, in language with the same tone as that being used in opposition to gay marriages today:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

In 1948, the California Supreme Court led the way in challenging racial discrimination in marriage and became the first state high court to declare unconstitutional a ban on interracial marriage. The court pointed out that races don’t marry each other, people do. Restricting who can marry whom on that characteristic alone was therefore race discrimination.

It took another 19 years for the U.S. Supreme Court to make the same ruling. Until 1967, in many states, a couple of mixed race could not get a marriage license, and if they went to another state and were married, when they returned home they could be arrested. In the Supreme Court’s action in 1967

Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote that the "freedom to marry or not marry a person of another race resides in that individual.'' Note that Warren wrote "person,'' and refers to "persons'' -- not man or woman -- throughout the opinion.

According to the supreme arbiter of the law of this land, "persons," not "man" or "woman" was judged the "trademark."

When folks say they want to "preserve the institution of marriage" just which institution of marriage do they want to preserve? We are in a new day facing a new issue. We have not had to face the issue of gay marriage earlier because public pressure and law tended keep homosexual persons "in the closet." With the increased recognition that as many as ten percent of the human population are by nature gay or lesbian, the issue of gay marriage will not go away. Let’s discuss it in the context of changes that have been taking place to the institution of marriage throughout history, not by distorting the Bible or history. If the people of California are honest with the Bible and with history I think they will recognize that the "marriage" trademark is far more inclusive than many imagined and will reject any ballot measure that attempts to restrict it.

Tags: marriage, gay marriage, California Supreme Court, higher calling, mixed race marriages, US Supreme Court, SCOTUS, trademark, Christian tradition (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 82 comments

  •  Very important to point out that the court.... (8+ / 0-)

    ..did not insist that it be called "marriage" -- the court merely insisted that the same protections and rights accorded to heterosexual unions be afforded to same sex couples. It's a subtle point, but the court suggested, mildly, that the legislature might even want to come up with an form of expression a civilly recognized union.

    Marriage is a loaded religious term. But as long as that is the term, gays and lesbians are entitled to share in the rights and responsibilities of that institution.

    Great diary, by the way, and yes, the term has evolved somewhat over the years. That's why we need to cut it loose....we need to divorce it (so to speak) from its religious foundation and return to the model of Mexico or France, where "marriage" is a civil matter, followed, if you wish, by a religious ceremony.

    Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.

    by Bensdad on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:19:57 PM PDT

    •  Good point. Thanks (5+ / 0-)

    •  I missed that part. (7+ / 0-)

      Where did it suggest that to the legislature? What I read was that the court declared that the portion of the family code defining marriage as between a man and a woman was unconstitutional. I thought it dismissed any idea of redefining marriage as outside the scope of this case. What did I miss?

      BTW, I totally agree on divorcing civil marriage from the church. Why haven't we been circulating petitions for a proposition at all pride celebrations in CA?

      Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

      by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:42:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It was subtle but here is what they said.... (4+ / 0-)

        "We need not decide in this case whether the name "marriage" is invariably a core element of the state constitutional right to marry so that the state would violate a couple’s constitutional right even if — perhaps in order to emphasize and clarify that this civil institution is distinct from the religious institution of marriage — the state were to assign a name other than marriage as the official designation of the formal family relationship for all couples.  Under the current statutes, the state has not revised the name of the official family relationship for all couples, but rather has drawn a distinction between the name for the official family relationship of opposite-sex couples (marriage) and that for same-sex couples (domestic partnership)."

        They followed this statement with the holding that same sex couples are entitled to the dignity and respect accorded to "officially recognized families" and that the state could not assign a different designation to them.

        The very subtle suggestion here is that the legislature could come up with a different name for this institution ---perhaps-- but that it would not pass constitutional muster unless same sex couples had a right to enter into this officially recognized family unit as well.

        This appears to be inspired by the way "marriage" is handled in Mexico and France for example: It's a civil institution and the religious ceremony is legally irrelevant. Absolutely irrelevant. In fact, marriage in the church does not accord you legal protections.

        Please don't tell me you feel sorry for Ben. Ben is a well cared for dalmatian and has not been harmed by my political views.

        by Bensdad on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:29:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  that's a great ruling - and i agree with its (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Milos Janus Outlook

          arguments completely.  within that ruling is the solution that many of us are stating - to get rid of the term for all "officially recognized families" and permanently solve the issue.

          Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

          by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:04:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  it is already divorced from the church (3+ / 0-)

        insofar as two individuals who have no religious affiliation at all can get married, and never step foot into a church ever, there is already a clear distinction between the process one MUST undertake to be legally married and the extraneous process that some seek to have their ceremony take place in a religious institution or performed by a religious cleric.

        the success of the churches to co-opt the term "marriage" as their own term, to have the world somehow buy the erroneous belief that somehow the state is partnering with THEM to make a marriage "legal and binding" is one of the greatest con jobs and hijacking and distorting of the truth that i know of.

        the religious who perform legally-binding marriages are doing so EXPLICITLY with this key phrase " by the power vested in me BY THE STATE OF..., i now pronounce you..."  the religious who can and do utter that phrase can and do only utter it if and when the couple has of course obtained the state-sanctioned marriage license and has paid their fee to the sate.

        anyone can walk into any religious institution and have some religious perform a 'wedding ceremony" for them.  it is ONLY legal if that couple has obtained the required marriage license, which is ONLY available through the state.

        anyone can walk into a court house and pay the fee and have a justice of the peace do their ceremony and have it be legal and never bother to step foot in a church -- and their marriage is legal and binding provided they have paid the feel to the state.

        the rate-determining factor for a legally-binding marriage is the state.  period.  all else is dross, all else is extraneous.

        we need not find another word for the union; we simply need to make it clear that the church is superfluous and unnecessary for a marriage to be legal and binding.

        the church stuff is additional, extra, and most definitely and most correctly NOT A REQUIREMENT ever for a marriage to be legal and binding.

        _______________

        it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

        -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

        by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:52:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Microsoft. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    theran, slksfca

    Or Disney.

    Wait--is this a trick question?

    Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

    by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:30:17 PM PDT

  •  marriage predated our constitution - so (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Chi, Milos Janus Outlook

    leave the religious freaks alone.

    it's one thing for them to shove their morals down our throats, and it's the same fucking thing for us to shove ours down theirs.

    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

    by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:33:33 PM PDT

    •  Say what? (6+ / 0-)

      How are we shoving our "morals" down their throats? Are we requiring them to marry someone of the same sex? Are we requiring them to perform same-sex marriages in their place of worship?

      Which fucking thing are you talking about?

      Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

      by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:38:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no. we're telling them we will redefine, legally, (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Chi, gfv6800, Milos Janus Outlook

        their religious sacrament (of which, in the christian church, there are very few), to something they're religion says is perversion.

        as an older, never-been-married, mostly straight single woman, i really find the argument over terminology lame.  it seems the government favors marriage over other contractual arrangements, and i agree it is unfair - both to the same-sex couple as the single adult.

        my earlier comment on this today was met with all kinds of shit... got accused of spewing republican talking points, etc.  at the risk of getting it all over again, my perspective is, the terminology of marriage should be taken out of the entire civil lexicon, and replaced with civil language.  then under the law, no one will be "married", but joined in civil unions with the terms agreed to by the parties, blah blah blah.  for gay, straight, whatever.

        and all marriages can take place in places of symbolic, religious, or philosophical import by those "ordained" or otherwise willing to do so, and it should not be a legally-binding or otherwise governmentally-meaningful occurence.

        but as long as some push for the term "marriage" to mean what they want it to mean, we will continue to never meet in the middle with others who we on the left have been very comfortable disparaging for their religious views.  and i guess don't like the double standard.

        i hope i've explained my position better.

        Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

        by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:01:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Baloney. Marriage IS the term universally (7+ / 0-)

          recognized all over the world. The church has no claim to it. marriage is the term that names the contractual agreement we understand as marriage. It covers all kinds of things including inheritance, paternity, property rights. But you see marriage IS civil language since it was used to describe the first binding contract of coupling written 1500 years ago. You can go to a minister now and have them perform a ceremony that looks and smells like a wedding and isn't legal, why make a separate law to cover it? The churches can want it to mean whatever they want, but it will always mean exactly what the laws says it means. The church has nothing to say about this, nothing at all.

        •  Wrong. (6+ / 0-)

          And let me tell you why:

          1. We're not telling them they have to perform, attend, or participate in same-sex weddings.
          1. What about the churches and synagogues that DO recognize them and are unconstitutionally precluded from legally performing them?
          1. What if their religion said it was a sin to marry two people of different races? Who gets to impose their beliefs? If they don't believe in eating pork, does that mean none of us can?

          You have this ass backwards. They are the ones imposing their beliefs.  

          You need to seriously rethink this.

          Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

          by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:27:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  wrong. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Milos Janus Outlook
            1.  marriage, in our society, is a religious term.  redefining it LEGALLY is a problem for them MORALLY.  so take out the LEGAL and there is no room for them to act.
            1.  i guess you didn't read.  what happens in churches and other places of worship/philosophical import should not be of legal consequence - regardless.  what part of separation of church/state is problematic?
            1.  if one's religion dictated any of those things, it's none of the government's business; conversely, that church can't impose its will on the government as you so strangely suggested.

            this discussion has nothing to do with the action, but all about the term.  and imo, proponents of demanding the term be used to define what is in certain churches abhorrent, are needlessly and intolerantly creating division, and irony of ironies, also seem to desire a healthy dose of church with their state.

            Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

            by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:43:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  disagree (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Milos Janus Outlook

              Marriage is not the religious term. Tell you what, if the religious want the word 'marriage' they should give up their claims to 'matrimony'. They'll be too busy re-writing all those bibles, crossing out 'holy matrimony' and substituting 'holy marriage' in it to hinder the progress of the world for quite a while.

              So next time some religious person makes the claim that 'marriage' has religious significance, make sure to educate them that the religious term for it is 'matrimony' and chide them for their lack of religious knowledge. Next thing you know, the uneducated will start claiming that 'tax' is a religious term and how the government can't enforce it, forgetting all about 'tithing'.

              •  ok, let's just say "marriage is not a religious (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Milos Janus Outlook

                term" 1000 times and see if that changes our society's reality.

                i'm sorry it doesn't fit your current wish, but can't we at least start at the truth?

                of course i get that people are very justifiably angry over the legal inequality, fostered by the ability to use legality by religious fundamentalists.  i get it.  you'd think, however, that equality is what is desired - but ahhh, not so.  not so at all.

                and that's where we part company - because i have both religious friends/family members, and gay friends/family members - and i respect them all.  i also respect the religion of christianity, regardless of how people have misused it.  and for those reasons, "marriage" has no room in our civil, legal contract lexicon for any couple of any gender.

                Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

                by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:59:53 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  if you walk into a church tomorrow (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Milos Janus Outlook

                  and have them perform a "marriage ceremony" for you ad your partner, the truth is, the fact is, the reality is that you are not legally married.  period.

                  until such time that you pay the state the license fee, then and only then can you be legally married.

                  marriage is a legally-binding contract, a state-sanctioned contract.

                  no church can issue such a contract.

                  no one is telling churches who they can or can not provide the extraneous and unnecessary ceremony to; the ruling simply is clear that the state can not deny access to two consenting adults of the same sex the same contract that two different-gender consenting adults have access to now.

                  if your position was correct, that there are several churches/denominations/religious groups now that have for a long long time now provided religious ceremonies to same sex couples, that these ceremonies somehow made these marriages legal and binding.

                  nothing could be further from the truth.

                  one need never enter a religious institution ever in order to be legally married.

                  one must always engage the state and pay the license fee in order to be legally married.

                  that is how it has worked, is working, and with this ruling in california, will now work for same sex couples.

                  pay the state and have the state-sanctioned contract be issued or else you are not legally married.

                  _______________

                  it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                  -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                  by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:01:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  are you trying to suggest that "marriage" (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Milos Janus Outlook

                    is a term concocted by the state and adopted by the church?  that ignores reality.  it's simply not the way it happened.

                    marriage is a religious term, adopted by the government to regulate morality.  it is the governmental regulation of morality that is objectionable.  

                    take away the term from the government - don't force the church, not a part of the government, to accept your version of the term - which is against the majority of christian faith.  until you understand that THAT'S the way they see it, their version of truth is valid (and none of your business), and that's the reason for the problem in the first place, you are perpetuating divisiveness over a term.

                    your lack of respect for people who don't believe like you do is concerning and disappointing.  i thought the democratic party was the party of religious tolerance.  not so, apparently.

                    Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

                    by jj24 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:17:41 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  it is a term that both use (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Milos Janus Outlook

                      that quibble is irrelevant.

                      the fact is that marriage is a licensed, state-sanctioned partnership agreement.

                      it exists and has validity regardless of any religious institution within our framework of laws and governance.

                      if the churches all disappeared tomorrow, we would still have this secular and civil institution called marriage with all the attendant benefits rights and privileges (around 1200, including the federal benefits and rights).

                      the same is not true if the situation were reversed and the state were to disappear.

                      _______________

                      it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                      -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                      by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:51:53 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  bullshit (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dadanation, Milos Janus Outlook

              if it were a religious term, if there was not such a thing as civil marriages, then atheists wouldn't be able to marry, nor interfaith couples, in front of a justice of the peace or other legal authority.

              marriage is as had been civil for quite some time, a legal contract recognized and enforced by the state, not the church. if the catholic church says divorce and remarriage aren't permitted, catholic couples can still divorce because the church does not control the legal system.

              civil law, not church doctrine, governs marriage in this country, because it is a civil institution in the eyes of the state. the state allows churches to sign the certificate, but they do not have a monopoly on the right to perform the ceremony or sign the certificate.

              if you are married, go and look at your wedding certificate and see who the pertinent authority is. my guess is that it will say "state of __" on the form, and has been that way since the country was founded if i am not mistaken.

              one does not defend the separation between church and state by ceding a major and time-honored civil institution to religious conservatives. and until the churches enforce family law and carry out taxation, they have no business controlling the institution of marriage, which is central to both.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:26:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  And did you even bother to read this diary? (3+ / 0-)

          (That's rhetorical--obviously you did not.)

          Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

          by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:28:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Please tell me why (8+ / 0-)

    if two people out there decide that they want to spend the rest of their lives with each other, how that affects my 35-year "straight" marriage in any way? It's not possible, don't even try.

    This is a human rights issue. You can't help who you love.

  •  P.S. (9+ / 0-)

    There's no such thing as "gay marriage". In your first 'graf you call it "gay marriage". No such thing. Nowhere in the world can you get a gay marriage license. Several places have equal marriage which is available to both hetero and same-sex couples, there's no "gay marriage".

    This isn't mere wordplay--it's an important semantic distinction. This is not a new kind of marriage--it's including everyone in the same old kind of marriage (and that includes, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and trans people).

    Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

    by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:35:34 PM PDT

  •  Take your pick (7+ / 0-)

    There are two options:

    (1) Marriage is a religious concept.  Then the state is forbidden by the first amemdment from endorsing it.

    (2) Marriage is a secular concept.  Then religious considerations are irrelevant, and the same rights must be granted to all.

    There doesn't seem to be a third option.

    •  Oh, wait...I know! I know! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      theran, Hannibal

      Shove your head up your ass and start your own teevee ministry?

      Did I win? Huh?

      Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

      by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:44:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  and the correct answer is... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Milos Janus Outlook

      (2).

      marriage is a state-sanctioned contract, a license that a couple pays a fee to the state in order to receive.

      if you never engage the state and never pay the fee... you are not legally married.

      all the religious stuff is extraneous and unnecessary -- one need never engage a religious entity in order to be legally married.

      and even better way of thinking about this is divorce.

      when a couple seeks to dissolve their marriage, do they go to a church to have them perform a ceremony to make such a dissolution legal and binding?

      nope.

      they have to engage the entity which sanctioned the partnership in the first place -- the state. that just about says it all.

      _______________

      it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

      -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

      by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:08:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You answered (6+ / 0-)

    your own question. Since the beginning of time marriages have been arranged, purchased or of one's free will you only had to say you were married to be married. All of them were common law and recognized. Then about 550AD The Justinian Code was written, the code made marriage a legal contract under the control of the government. Church marriages weren't recognized, in fact churches didn't even bless marriages until the 9th century. The blessings weren't legal marriages altho many a king or noble took advantage of the trappings. The rules set down by the Catholic Church around 1250 didn't change the necessity of government involvement for a legal marriage.  In fact as far as I know the church has never been able to perform valid binding marriages without the intervention of the state. It wasn't until the 18th century more than a thousand years after marriage was made a legal contract by the Justinian Code that churches were routinely performing marriages. Again with the permission of the government. One of the first things the pilgrims did was pass laws making civil marriages the law and church marriages a choice.

    So you see if anyone owns the word marriage it is the government and since it can't be trademarked one has to rely on what entity has used the term longest and that isn't the church. Marriage is the correct term, it is ubiquitous, not so with other terms like civil unions or civil partners. Churches have no claim to the word or the institution, both belong to human kind.

    •  I've gotten so used to the candidate diaries that (6+ / 0-)

      I had almost forgotten how well some people write on dKos and what a substantive comment looks like.   You've reminded me why I come here.

      Thanks!

    •  Excellent. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Milos Janus Outlook

      But I have a question? What about in the UK? Do you get a marriage license if you are being married in the Church of England? How does it work if you go through the process of publishing the banns and signing the parish register--how does it get registered with the state?

      Sorry--I only know enough about that to be dangerous. I just know that as a result of watching the Charles/Camilla marriage that civil marriage in the UK is a very different proposition than marriage in one of the recognized churches.

      Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

      by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:48:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe someone will answer this in a comment (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        homogenius
      •  Yes, there is no where in the "western" world (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dadanation, Milos Janus Outlook

        that I am aware of that doesn't require a license of some kind from the state. In Great Britian

        Unless you are marrying in the Church of England or Church in Wales by Banns or Common Licence, notice of marriage has to be given personally to your local superintendent registrar(s) at the Register Office in the district in which you and your partner reside. A notice of marriage states the names of the parties to the marriage, age, marital status, address, occupation nationality and the intended venue for the marriage. It is a legal document
        covered by the Perjury Act 1911.

        Civil Ceremonies
        One of the following certificates is required for marriage to take place in a register office (the office of a Superintendent Registrar), a building approved for civil marriages or a place of religious worship registered for the solemnisation of marriages by the Registrar General. Although a period of residence is required in the district of registration, the marriage may take place at a venue in a different part of the country if it is specified at the time of registration.

        Superintendent Registrar's Certificate
        Both parties are required to give notice and must have been resident in the district where notice is given for the seven preceding days. A period of 21 clear days must then pass before the Superintendent Registrar can issue the certificate, after which the marriage can take place any time within twelve months.

        or

        Superintendent Registrar's Certificate and Licence

        Church of England Ceremonies
        A Church of England marriage may be solemnised after either of the preliminaries listed below:

        The Publication of Banns
        Application for the publication of banns should be made to the clergyman of the parish in which each party is resident. Banns must be published on three consecutive Sundays, after which the couple are free to marry at any time within three months.
        or
        Common Licence
        This procedure dispenses with the need to have banns published. One of the parties must sign an affidavit that there is no legal impediment to the marriage and that one of the parties has been resident in the parish where the marriage will take place for at least fifteen days prior to the licence being issued. The marriage may then take place at any time within the next twelve months.

        To the British this all makes sense, to me, not so much.

    •  BINGO! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ebohlman, Milos Janus Outlook

      In fact as far as I know the church has never been able to perform valid binding marriages without the intervention of the state.

      at least not here in the US, not now.

      you just articulated the core truth here.

      if i could rec'd this comment 1,000,000 times, i would.

      _______________

      it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

      -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

      by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:11:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So why allow government to sanction any marriage? (5+ / 0-)

    I want to see government recognize civil unions for any pair of consenting adults, but to wash its hands of "marriage".  That would mean equal treatment for everyone, and no unnecessary culture wars.  Let "marriage" belong to any who claim it... let recognition of it fall to churches and civic groups, and have no legal meaning.

    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." Mark Twain, as quoted by Barack Obama 6/30/08 Independence, MO.

    by SunWolf78 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:44:44 PM PDT

    •  Good idea! (0+ / 0-)

    •  Any idea what that would take? (9+ / 0-)

      I keep hearing this with no analysis of what it would require. It means amending thousands and thousands of laws at every level, corporate documents, union contracts, and reciprocal treaties with 200+ countries.

      "Marriage" has a universally understood meaning. "Civil Union" is an entirely new creation. Why reinvent the wheel? Why does one segment of religious communities get to dictate to everyone else? Internationally the tide is moving towards inclusive marriage. Why must we move in the opposite direction.

      Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

      by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:54:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good counter. I don't want to give in (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        homogenius, snackdoodle

        to the religious communities who want to control the meaning of marriage.

        •  give in? it's not your concept to barter. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Milos Janus Outlook

          you want to take this religious concept and make it mean what you want it to mean.  your arguments about the facets of the meaning of marriage over centuries and millenia are hardly convincing to your assertion that it's not a religious idea.  the fact that it, as have almost every word and concept in human history, has evolved, is not exactly novel.

          but it's this part that really gets me - because focusing on the demand over the definition of the term has so much more to do with answering gender preference intolerance with religious intolerance, not to mention the seeming need for validation by a community who never will.  neither is the government's, or the electorate's, business.  

          no one who really cares about this issue can explain sufficiently to me why civil unions/domestic partnerships for all, and religious words for none within civil law, is the fair thing to do.  and it disarms those who prefer the inclusion of church in their state - which i'm WAY more concerned about than what someone's same-sex union is acknowledged by law.

          Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

          by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:35:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're right. (0+ / 0-)

            No one can sufficiently explain it to you. Your mind is made up just like the fundies. Meanwhile, the world is passing you by. Buh-bye.

            Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

            by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:55:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you're much more the fundie, in this case. (0+ / 0-)

              and your response is indicative of losing the argument.

              Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

              by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:05:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  four words, jj24, four words (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            ebohlman, Milos Janus Outlook

            full
            faith
            and
            credit

            marriages get this benefit, across state lines.

            civil unions or domestic partnerships?

            not one bit.  NEVER.

            my parents were married in illinois.  i was born in california.  my dad died in forida.  in all three states, their marriage was legal and binding.  

            all the attendant benefits/rights extended to my parents by illinois when they were first married were equally extended to them in california and then florida and would have been no matter which state we lived in.  

            ALL of the rights/benefits.  

            every single one of them.

            that is what is entailed by full faith and credit.

            a civil union in new hampshire has no legal standing in kansas.  if you obtain your civil union license in new jersey and move to michigan, none, not one of the benefits afforded you from new jersey transfer to michigan.  not one.

            marriages get not just state benefits//rights but FEDERAL ones too.

            a civil union or domestic partnership gets ZERO FEDERAL benefits/rights.  ZERO.

            the current system and nomenclature is neither inappropriate nor in need of revamping.  the current discriminatory practice of denying two consenting adults to the same state-sanctioned contract -- one that is called a "marriage" -- is what is in need of overhaul.

            the system is fine; we need to stop denying access to it based on the sex of the two consenting adults.

            why is that so hard to grasp for you?

            _______________

            it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

            -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

            by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:21:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  why is it so hard to grasp, for you, that (0+ / 0-)

              i don't support denying access to anyone based on sex???

              if that's what you got out of anything i said, you're not reading.

              Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

              by jj24 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:53:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  and - it really hurts my feelings, (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Milos Janus Outlook

              as i have been very painstakingly been clear about my position, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER with denying rights to anyone - and as you have been trying to paint me with some ignoranimous broadbrush you need to save for pat fucking robertson.

              it is dishonest for you to paint me as someone who would do that.  and i would like you to reread what i'm saying and take it back, please.

              your four words, i totally accept.  those four words don't have anything to do with what we can choose to call the status - for all couples, in the future.  right?  that's my point.  now.  grasp that.

              Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

              by jj24 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:57:50 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you do not want your questuions answered (0+ / 0-)

                you asked:

                no one who really cares about this issue can explain sufficiently to me why civil unions/domestic partnerships for all, and religious words for none within civil law, is the fair thing to do.

                let me do this really slowly, because you eithe rare jyst being petulant for the hell of it or you jst are not reading the answers...

                those four words have everything to do with the issue at hand.  everything. because what you call this state-sanctioned partnership DOES matter.  words DO matter.  because the one word we have that is UNIFIED and IDENTICAL acoross all fifty states is MARRIAGE.  it means the same thing everywhere.  neither civil unions or domestic np[artnerships do.  not at all.

                secondly, there is no need to change the terminoilogy within a legal system where the rights and privileges and benbefitsare explict to asecular term d=for a secular activity.

                i9nserting the "religious" cmncern is extraneous and a deflection.

                if you do not see that these four words, which legally dictate the extent to which the same benefits and the same rights and the same privileges are extended to the recipients of the state-sanctioned license, thgen you miss the point altogether.

                all this kerfluffle about the term "marriage" is all deflection.

                the term is secular, it is defined by a civil institution and carries with it demonstrable civil/secular rights and privileges and benefits that either are extended across state lines or -- currently - are denied across state lines depending SOLELY on the opinion of the secular, civil entity (the state).

                all the rest is dross.

                _______________

                it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:46:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  your wishes do not make it so. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Milos Janus Outlook

                  and your being an ass about it really kept me from going on after the first sentence.

                  i know what terminology we use currently.  i'm talking about what i think we should move toward.  i already said i agree with the CA ruling as it is, and understand how ruling any other way creates a "separate but equal", and therefore set apart as different, status that i think is wrong as well.

                  that doesn't make marriage the ideal term for the longterm.  the point is simple.

                  Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

                  by jj24 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:44:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you have no point (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Milos Janus Outlook

                    i have already been unequivocal about the ideal term for the future -- we have it already -- and it is marriage.

                    what we need to ""move forward" is to have people like you stop trying to take the discussions backwards.

                    please stop prolonging this discussion.

                    when given answers, you change the questions.

                    i am finished here.

                    i never once called you an ass.

                    i take some sense of pride in knowing that i did not stoop to your level.

                    good nday.

                    _______________

                    it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

                    -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

                    by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:16:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  the wheel is a religious construction. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Milos Janus Outlook

        ok - has been a religious construction for, like a couple thousand years, in our western history... which actually is what we're a part of, so yeah, it matters.

        what would it take?  who knows.  whatever it takes.  and - law changes by precedent too - which would be a fine substitue for the unending years i'm imagining you in some law library with a thousand pencils with nubbed-down erasers, crossing out one word and adding two.

        Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

        by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:25:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Clearly, marriage does not... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jj24, Milos Janus Outlook

        ...have a universally-understood meaning. If it did, we wouldn't be arguing about it now in 2008.

        Our government should only be concerned with the civil aspect of any union...how it applies with regard to taxes, inheritance and so on -- contractual matters. Leave the religious aspects of it to the church, and let the church call it "marriage" if it wants. The state needs to get out of that business.

        T.

        •  Still doesn't answer it. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Milos Janus Outlook

          What about the churches and synagogues that do want to bless same-sex marriages--why do they have to follow what the fundies do?

          Well Dayum! The Fat Lady just sang her tits right off!

          by homogenius on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:56:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  because the term is regulated by the government (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Milos Janus Outlook

            currently as to its definition, maybe?  and maybe that's the crux of the problem?  i don't get your inability to get it.

            Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

            by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:11:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  if you don't see the hypocrisy (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              homogenius, Milos Janus Outlook

              of your arguments as encapsulated in your answer here, then you should re-read what you just wrote until it ios apparent.

              but if you DO see the hypocrisy, then you are intentionally missing the point and are just being divisive and hijacking the commentary.

              you said it all when you wrote that

              the term is regulated by the government

              in a nutshell, you have already answered your own queries here.

              the term and its legal, binding nature is SOLELY a state-sanctioned and state-controlled and state-licensed activity.

              the church is extraneous and unnecessary.

              apparently you already know this.

              which would then make your continued questioning and interaction merely rhetorical boxing and goading.

              _______________

              it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

              -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

              by dadanation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:27:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  They should be allowed to... (0+ / 0-)

            ...simple as that. If a church wants to bless same-sex unions and call it "marriage", that's the purview of the church.

            The government has no business making any distinction with regard to interpersonal contractual matters like civil marriage.

            There's nothing stopping churches from blessing or refusing to bless any union it feels is appropriate.

            T.

      •  Maybe start calling it Civil Marriage? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Milos Janus Outlook

        I'll throw that idea out.

        Political Expediency: Its The New Black!

        by BentLiberal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:01:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not just (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Milos Janus Outlook

        amending statutes and regulations. "Marriage" is a term of art in common law and case law; those can't be changed by purely legislative means.

        I do like conducting hearings in an actual hearing room -- John Conyers

        by ebohlman on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:57:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  exactly. (0+ / 0-)

      Arianna - when you're right, you're right. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

      by jj24 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:22:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it isn;'t a matter of sanctioning it (3+ / 0-)

      the state has an interest in recording and regulating marriages for matters of family law, custody, divorce, property transactions and taxation. it's already a secular, civil word, and has been for centuries in this country.

      there is no need for the state to relinquish this authority, any more than it was necessary to come up with some rediculous special category of "miscegenated union" to appease the southern baptists back in the 60s, since their definition of marriage was between a white man and a white woman.

      the solution is simply to remove the discrimination from the state definitioon of the legal term. the religious conservatives can sit and spin for all i care, they have no presiding legal authority here, save as citizens with voting rights.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:31:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for all your insights! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dadanation

    I've got to check out, but I will follow up on all the comments that are made tomorrow.

  •  You have to understand that... (3+ / 0-)

    the arguments over marriage terminology are merely tools for the homohaters. What they really have a problem with is the very existence of gay people. Since it would be somewhat frowned upon in this country to actually execute gays and lesbians, the homohaters have focussed on trying to keep us hidden or, failing that, socially ostracized. They lost the ability to jail us for engaging in sex and they're fighting tooth and nail to keep us from protection under anti-discrimination laws. Their last stand is to keep our relationships from any kind of societal recognition. That's why the vast majority of the anti-SSM laws and propositions not only prevent our marrying our partner but also prevent state authorization of civil unions, domestic partnerships or any other arrangement that might confer some or all of the benefits of marriage.

  •  Stupid MSM Marriage Moment: Ellen D'G Today (0+ / 0-)

    I watched her announce she was getting married.

    Married almost 30 years and it was a super goosebumps moment. I was jumping up with the audience.

    As my Scots auntie used to say, "Some things should be obvious."

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:41:38 AM PDT

  •  Heteros haven't done so well (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Milos Janus Outlook

    with lifetime conjugal commitments, so I don't think anyone has any room to disparage anyone else's sex life except for instances involving force or cruelty or kids or critters.  I was married for 39 years total, but it took three husbands.  

    I've never had a same-sex relationship nor wanted one, but other people should be able to choose for themselves.  I would caution anyone, though, that marriage, like most things, can be vastly overrated, and divorce is expensive and painful.  If there's much money and property involved, the lawyers win.  

    Democracy is comin' to the USA -- Leonard Cohen

    by slithytove on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:53:31 AM PDT

  •  What a great bunch you are! (0+ / 0-)

    Your comments and conflicts are superb. It'll take me a while to sort through all of the issues you've posed, but I will.

    In the meantime, maybe someone like Wu Ming will do a diary on this.

    As for the matter at hand in California, I believe that the matter is for the state to decide and we should not let the homophobic religious folks prevent further injustice. Defeat the ballot measure that most assume will come!

    California led the way on inter-racial marriage. Let them join Massachusetts in showing the nation the way. Like inter-racial marriage, this will end up on the steps of the U.S. Supreme Court. It's okay with me if it doesn't go before the present court. I shudder to think what they would do.

    Thanks to you all!

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