Daily Kos

Obama&Media Don't Owe Perez an Apology: from a psychiatrist

Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:21:48 PM PDT

I read DEFuning's diary saying that Obama & the media had wronged Dr. Perez by accusing her of encouraging misdiagnosis of soldiers returning with PTSD.  While I found the diary offensive, I'm no expert on the topic so I turned the information over to my husband who is board certified in both child & adult psychiatrist with over 25 years of experience.  He read the memo and DEFuning's diary.  The following is his response to DEFuning's diary:

In response to the diary by DEFuning, he/she does make a few good points, e.g that the military health care system is overburdened with inadequate resources, and that having a personality disorder does not rule out a possible co-occuring diagnosis of PTSD.

However, the interpretation of Dr. Perez's memo is off the mark.  Perez begins the memo: "Given that we are having more and more compensation seeking veterans..." The term "compensation seeking" is not a neutral or medical term.  It is meant, usually deliberately, to imply that the veteran is trying to obtain money (benefits) to which he/she is not entitled, by pretending to have, or exaggerating, his/her symptoms and/or disability.

Although PTSD can be rather complex, the DSM-IV-TR (American Psychiatric Association) criteria for its diagnosis are not so complex.  Importantly, one criterion is that "Duration of the disturbance is more than 1 month."  While Acute Stress Disorder has similar symptoms to PTSD, its duration is "for a minimum of 2 days and a maximum or 4 weeks..."Thus, if a veteran has symptoms of PTSD which have lasted more than a month, by definition s/he has PTSD, not Acute Stress Disorder.

Adjustment Disorder is different not only in terms of duration (generally if symptoms persist longer than 6 months, it is not adjustment disorder).  It is also different in terms of severity: "marked distress that is in excess of what would be expected from exposure to the stressor."  The Adjustment Disorders which might be most liable to be considered instead of PTSD are Adjustment Disorder with Depressed Mood: "when the predominant manifestations are symptoms such as depressed mood, tearfulness, or feelings of hopelessness," and Adjustment Disorder with Anxiety: "when the predominant manifestation are symptoms such as nervousness, worry, or jitteriness..."

Clearly, the above symptoms are less severe than those of PTSD.  And, the diagnostic manual spells out a number of quite specific symptoms for the diagnosis of PTSD, different and far beyond what is required for the diagnosis of Adjustment Disorder.

While I agree with DEFuning that the military may have insufficient resources, this is a political issue that needs to be remedied by more funding.  The memo by Dr. Perez is misleading in stating "we really don’t have time to do the extensive testing that should be done to determine PTSD."  This is, again, meant to discourage the diagnosis from being made.  Of course you need more than the fact that a veteran was in Iraq and has some symptoms, to warrant a PTSD diagnosis.  But the diagnosis can be made by careful interviewing, supplemented by self-reports, and also in some cases by obtaining information from others, such as those who served with the veteran, as to what behavior or symptoms they observed in the veteran.

In summary, from the actual wording of the VA memo, it is clear that the purpose of the memo was not to encourage careful "differential diagnosis," which of course is a requirement in all of medicine, including psychiatry, all the time.  Rather, the purpose, as seen in the misleading sections I have quoted above, was to discourage the diagnosis of PTSD as a way of avoiding, or delaying, having to provide benefits to veterans who might well have PTSD.

A final point is that in addition to denying or delaying monetary and other benefits to the veteran, if s/he is incorrectly diagnosed with Adjustment Disorder instead of PTSD, the veteran will not receive proper treatment for his/her PTSD.  The treatment of Adjustment Disorder generally is not intensive and often can be carried out by mental health workers without extensive training.  In contrast, there are some specific, effective types of psychotherapy for PTSD (e.g., Cognitive Reprocessing Therapy) which require intensive treatment by specifically trained therapists.   The more general, less intensive treatment which can be effective for Adjustment Disorder is NOT effective for PTSD.  And, the longer PTSD remains untreated or inadequately treated, the more likely it is to become chronic—often dooming the veteran (and his/her loved ones) to years of suffering.  

 

Tags: Barack Obama, VA memo, PTSD, Norma Perez, health care, DEFuning, media, psychiatry (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 30 comments

  •  tips for my husband and for me for marrying him? (44+ / 0-)

    If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

    by Tamar on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:22:47 PM PDT

  •  There was something wrong with this DEFuning... (12+ / 0-)

    She claimed to be searching for the "truth."

    But, I think her real goal was to demand an apology from Obama.

    It's interesting that Obama's call for hearings IS a search for the truth.

    I wonder if DEFuning wasn't someone close to Perez, or maybe even Perez herself.

    Anyway, something was really odd about that diary.

    •  I am also troubled (10+ / 0-)

      by her calling CBS about this.
      From the diary...

      Yesterday, I spent a good bit of time on the phone with Pia Malbran of CBS News in Miami discussing their coverage of this story and what I feel is their over the top, misinformed, and false conclusions regarding what Dr. Perez intended by her memo. Dr. Perez made a good ,solid, clinically appropriate call in her memo for the front line assessment clinicians to consider the Adjustment Disorder Rule Out PTSD diagnosis.

      Does the corporate media need help obfuscating issues?

      McCain insisted [no union member] would [pick lettuce for $50/hour] for a complete season. "You can't do it, my friends."

      by grrr on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:31:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It wouldn't have surprised me if CBS butchered or (0+ / 0-)

        sensationalized something, which is why I was so sympathetic to that diary.  On a regular basis, MSM fucks stuff that, for a smart lay person, isn't so tricky.  

        •  Burrow Owl (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Tamar

          now that several psychiatrists have weighed in, do you still believe an apology is needed by Obama and the media?

          McCain insisted [no union member] would [pick lettuce for $50/hour] for a complete season. "You can't do it, my friends."

          by grrr on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:53:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Plenty of Thinktank People & Other Bushco (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      alizard, allep10, Julia C, David Kroning

      allies that could be doing this.

      Suppressing media and squelching investigation & enforcement is what they're all about.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:44:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just read comments on DEFuning's (9+ / 0-)

      diary and read her replies to people.  I see what you mean about her -- a lot of her replies just don't jive with what my husband says.  
      this comment of hers, in particular, was pretty telling:

      I have a Masters degree and I do not expect you to understand something that has taken me and others in my profession years to learn.  You bias is showing by your closemindedness.

      My husband is not only very experienced, but he has far more than a master's degree.  He would never say something that condescending.  

      If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

      by Tamar on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:55:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  DEFuning isn't out to smear Obama. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      grrr, watercarrier4diogenes

      Defuning is the person who first broke open the politicization crap long before Walter Reed.

      That is in-line with her concern as expressed in her diary.

      Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
        Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
      Tempest even in reason's seat.

      by GreyHawk on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:13:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I should have quoted that middle sentence. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        watercarrier4diogenes

        Anywho -- DEFuning was reporting of the politicalization of the VA long before the Walter Reed scandal broke; her intention isn't to smear Obama or the media, but to offer an alternative interpretation of the Perez memo.

        Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
          Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
        Tempest even in reason's seat.

        by GreyHawk on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:16:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe on other issues she's wonderful, but (6+ / 0-)

        her reasoning in this case is flawed and her replies to legitimate questions are condescending, incorrect, or unresponsive.  
        Her diary was simply wrong.  Obviously she knows this Dr. Perez and feels protective, but the memo from Perez speaks for itself.  
        Read the last paragraph of my husband's statement -- delaying or not diagnosing PTSD because the tests are too costly and/or time-consuming endangers the veterans suffering from this disorder
        Just a few days ago, a marine who served 4 tours of duty in Iraq killed his brother and himself.  His wife says he didn't get what was needed from the military to treat his condition.
        PTSD Marine Kills Brother, Self
        On TV his wife described how he would dive for the floor everytime he heard a car driving down their gravel road, because it sounded like machine-gun fire.  
        Obviously, we need to make sure that our returning soldiers are getting the treatment and care that they need.  The Perez memo was clearly aimed at husbanding resources, not giving people correct treatment.

        If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

        by Tamar on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:28:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You yourself jump to conclusions -- (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Cho

          "Obviously she knows this Dr. Perez and feels protective" -- isn't that a bit of a jump in logic, as opposed to simply suggesting that her take on the memo could be driven by her down-in-the-trenches experience?

          You've stated her reasoning is flawed and that the diary is "wrong" -- fine. That's enough; there's no reason to project other motivations or reasoning, or to dis her capability.

          As for your recital of the PTSD death, did you realize that ePluribus Media has been tracking such things to keep an accurate record of what the Bush Administration has been downplaying and denying?

          Both the PTSD Timeline and the Contractor Timeline reveal some startling cases that the deniers and enablers of this godforsaken war-crime would prefer us all to forget.

          At the start of the PTSD Timeline, you can see a list of related ePluribus Media articles pertaining to the topic -- just like you'll find on any of the other Timelines -- and the first item listed is one that you may find relevant:

          1. Blaming the Veteran: The Politics of PTSD by D.E. Ford with Jeff Huber and Ilona Meagher

          2. In the Aftermath: A Review of Moving a Nation to Care: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and America's Returning Troops by Aaron Barlow
          3. The Stories They Tell: Iraq War Vets Bear Witness A review of Tish Wood's What They Asked of Us by Cho and Ilona Meagher
          4. Corroding Effect a review of Penny Coleman's Flashback by Cho and Ilona Meagher
          5. PTSD Combat blog Ilona Meagher's blog of resources, contacts, and help

          It's not as if the diarist is simply pulling her passion out of thin air or as if she is wholly unfamiliar with the reality of PTSD, its diagnosis and treatment.

          Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
            Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
          Tempest even in reason's seat.

          by GreyHawk on Sun May 18, 2008 at 03:12:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I got that impression (0+ / 0-)

            from a couple of things she wrote, but I certainly could be wrong about her knowing the author of the memo.  I speculated about that because, given what others were saying about her history with this issue, it seemed unlikely that she had any bad motives for writing the diary.
            However, there's no doubt that her diary is way off-base, and her understanding of differential diagnosis, at least in this context, is wrong.  My husband is the medical director of a psychiatric clinic supervising a number of clinicians, and is extremely knowledgeable and thorough.  He pulled out and reread the details of PTSD in his DSM IV manual, read both the memo and the diary before writing his comments.  
            Unfortunately, DEFuning seems a little less careful and a little more arrogant about her knowledge.  It sounds like her history in this area has been admirable, but a degree of humility, attention to detail, and openness to your own mistakes is always helpful.

            If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

            by Tamar on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:04:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Heh -- almost forgot a good, related PTSD story (0+ / 0-)

          from yesterday:

          PTSD: Treating Trauma, by Cho

          It's about a new therapy. Figure I might as well be complete. :)

          Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
            Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
          Tempest even in reason's seat.

          by GreyHawk on Sun May 18, 2008 at 03:18:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm glad (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        GreyHawk

        you know her well enough to say so. On the point of this email, DemFuming's argument is illogical to the point of bringing up legitmate questions about her motivation.

        To be fair, when people, including well-meaning clincians, work in settngs with little resources, they can respond with crazy emails such as the one by Dr Perez and forget that such advice is irresponsible.

        McCain insisted [no union member] would [pick lettuce for $50/hour] for a complete season. "You can't do it, my friends."

        by grrr on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:56:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks, grrr. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          grrr

          You were able to maintain a pretty reasonable tone throughout, which I appreciate, and you hit the nail on the head in terms of the point DEFuning was trying to make when you said this:

          To be fair, when people, including well-meaning clincians, work in settngs with little resources, they can respond with crazy emails such as the one by Dr Perez and forget that such advice is irresponsible.

          I believe that was the perspective that DEFuning was coming from, and from her position it put the way others reacted into a whole 'nother light.

          You and a few others engaged the discussion well, with intelligence and civility -- which is what makes a community stronger and helps it thrive even on topics where there are vastly differing views, opinions and understanding.

          Thank you. :)

          Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
            Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
          Tempest even in reason's seat.

          by GreyHawk on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:32:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Btw -- did you see (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          grrr

          this comment, above, where I pointed to a few other items for background? (just a couple comments up, same thread as this)

          You might find those interesting in terms of PTSD, and if you've got anything that you feel would be worth sharing, we'd love to hear from you over there -- or here (dKos) and there (ePluribus Media).

          Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
            Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
          Tempest even in reason's seat.

          by GreyHawk on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:33:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I am not an expert... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kurt, willb48, appletree

    Although PTSD can be rather complex, the DSM-IV-TR (American Psychiatric Association) criteria for its diagnosis are not so complex.  Importantly, one criterion is that "Duration of the disturbance is more than 1 month."  While Acute Stress Disorder has similar symptoms to PTSD, its duration is "for a minimum of 2 days and a maximum or 4 weeks..."Thus, if a veteran has symptoms of PTSD which have lasted more than a month, by definition s/he has PTSD, not Acute Stress Disorder.

    Psychiatric illnesses have got to be more difficult to diagnose than physical illnesses.  If someone has a viral or bacterial infection, you can test for these things, identifying the illness under a microscope.

    Psychiatric illness don't work this way.  You certainly can't see the illness.  The tests we've developed were developed by humans, for humans, so they are going to be somewhat fallible.  Calling for a decrease in a certain diagnosis because of disability issues is wrong, and takes advantage of how difficult it is to diagnose a psychiatric illness.

    Believe none of what hear, none of what you read, and only half of what you see. Jesus H. Christ

    by nicweb on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:30:09 PM PDT

  •  DEFuning can spin it any way s/he wants. (9+ / 0-)

    It's still evidence of the DoD and VA trying to screw the victims of PTSD.  We are charging the wars on a credit card, basically.  The consequences of the war are to be ignored.  "We Have To Save Money Somewhere" ought to be Perez's motto.

    As Rumsfeld noted, "Troops are fungible."

  •  It has been a big deal to reduce PTSD diagnoses (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    alizard, Tamar, SnowCountry, Inventor, allep10

    for this administration for some years, with the express intent of reducing the number of disability payments.  The biggest increase in Viet Nam era vets getting disability rather than GWOT vets- that will come along more and more over the next decade as people start to really assess the damage of this pointless war.

    You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

    by murrayewv on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:39:26 PM PDT

  •  What the administration is doing is trying to (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    fritzrth, jhutson, Tamar, allep10, Julia C

    take advantage of PTSD sharing symptoms of other illnesses.  I'm not sure how the disability system works, but a PTSD diagnosis seems to help them obtain the disability benefits.  Shameful stuff huh?

    Believe none of what hear, none of what you read, and only half of what you see. Jesus H. Christ

    by nicweb on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:45:15 PM PDT

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