Daily Kos

Something Stinks in Texas

Fri May 02, 2008 at 06:54:35 PM PDT

and it's not what comes out of the read end of their fabled longhorns.

No, what stinks is the Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) raid on the FLDS Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado last month.

Since that raid I've written three diaries on the questionable evidence presented by CPS to justify the raid as well as to take away more than 400 FLDS children from their parents.

Instead of my opinion why don't we look at progressive opinion around the blogosphere.

From Grits for Breakfast:

The Texas Department of Family Protective Services this week launched an aggressive public relations initiative to justify its raid on the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, and increasingly their much-hyped claims appear awfully thin.

First they issued statistics alleging 60% of teen girls at the ranch were pregnant or had kids, without adding that more than 80% of the girls so identified disputed the agency's assessment of their ages. (See "Lies and Statistics") I'm not sure I've ever seen a case where the state repeatedly labels supposed abuse victims "liars" in the press, but that appears to be DFPS' current media approach.

Then yesterday at a hearing of the Texas Senate Health and Human Services Committee, DFPS said they're investigating "possible sexual abuse of some young boys." Uh ... based on what, exactly? They provided the committee zero detail beyond the salacious topline allegations, which dominate this morning's headlines. Anything's "possible," but abuse allegations against FLDS in other states have focused on underage girls, to my knowledge never molestation of young boys. It's similarly "possible" the sun will rise in the west tomorrow, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Even more disingenuous was out-of-context testimony to the committee declaring 41 kids had been found to have had broken bones at some point in the past. Not mentioned: That's probably a LOWER rate of broken bones than experienced by kids in the outside world!

From Gadfly:

They look different from us. They dress differently. They’re standoffish. They have weird religious beliefs and social customs.

How many of these statements and more crossed the minds of many Americans in the days and weeks after Sept. 11, 2001, thinking about Muslims in America?

By actions if not words, we’re hearing or seeing the same beliefs today — over a splinter Mormon group right here in Texas.

First, the phone call itself that led to the April 3 raid on the FLDS compound.

Colorado court records show the calls made to a San Angelo domestic violence shelter were made from prepaid mobile phones previously used by Rozita Swinton. The Colorado Springs woman has been charged with making a false report in Colorado and is on probation there for a similar offense.

Then came further actions by CPS, many substantiated by Judge Walther, followed by other actions of her own.

First was the decision to separate the children at Eldorado from their mothers. If fathers at Eldorado had forced mothers unto either underage or polygamous marriages, of course, CPS would be right to separate both mothers and children from the men.

But, nobody has charged the mothers with any wrongdoing.

Instead, a surface interpretation of CPS actions would be that the state wants to deprogram these children out of their "weird" beliefs in an "extremist offshoot Mormon cult."

The idea that the state wants to "deprogram" these 437 children is only furthered by Judge Walther’s actions.

She refused to take the time or effort to treat each child as an individual. Instead, in a temporary custody hearing on whether to keep them in state custody rather than return them to their mothers, she had one giant hearing for all children. She even called it a "cattle call" afterward.

Let's look at the evidence again:

Underage pregnancy and a birth by an underaged girl - The underaged girl was actually 17 and she was married to a 22-year old. They were not living in a polygamous relationship. As Grits says above, it seems that CPS os accusing the girls it arrested of being liars because they won't substantiate CPS's claims.

Sexual Abuse - Claim after claim by Texas CPS but not a single bit of evidence shown.

Physical Abuse
- 40+ of the 400 children had a broken bone at some point in their lives. This study shows that 25% of minors will experience at least a fracture at some point in their lives. The FLDS children actually have a lower rate of broken bones than the population at-large!

Polygamy
- A civil marriage to more than one person is illegal. A religious marriage is not. The state claims polygamy is not the issue here but it seems that as more and more of their claims are proven false they're falling back on this one.

Spousal Abuse - 40 of the women from the YFZ ranch chose to go to battered women shelters. But what CPS didn't tell anyone is that caseworkers told the women they would have a better chance of reclaiming their children if they were to go to shelters instead of back to the YFZ ranch.

And finally, let me close with a shot of the lovely armored personnel carrier the sheriff's department used to smash through the gates of YFZ ranch and rescue those children. What did they find when they got there? A bunch of men, women and children singing hymns.

Here

Tags: FLDS, Texas CPS, Civil Liberties (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 104 comments

  •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    empathy, Bernie68, Shane Hensinger

    Something Stinks in Texas

    and water is wet.

    •  LOL (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kate mckinnon, esquimaux, Translator

      Well this stinks worse than normal I guess.

      •  Have they done SANE (13+ / 0-)

        exams on any of the girls?  

        Physical evidence doesn't lie.  

        Now you say that that evidence hasn't been presented, but if such evidence exists, well, they are minors and such evidence should probably not be made public, right?  That and it takes time to process SANE kits.

        How many boys were there?  One of the real problems with these places is that older boys are literally driven off and end up in towns and cities, homeless and working as prostitutes, etc.

        As for victims of sexual abuse, yes, they will lie to protect their family members.  It happens.  I've worked in this field.

        My ultimate position here is that children have rights and any claims of abuse need to be investigated pretty seriously.  That responsibility falls on the State.

        Were they heavy handed?  It appears so.  

        But those kids deserve society's protections, so I'll wait to see what comes out of this in terms of criminal charges and investigative police reporting before I make a final judgment.

        Workers of the world unite--back by popular demand.

        by Kab ibn al Ashraf on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:11:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This Diarist lived in Hilldale, has FLDS family (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JVolvo

        (which he got pissed off enough at me to admit, downthread)and is pretending to be an "unbiased" defender of civil liberties.

        pretty pathetic.

        You want to defend some innocent victims?How about defending some 14 year old girls?

        Want to know where he spent his summer vacations?

        Sunny Hilldale: where sexual abuse of minors is SO cool.

        Those who have fled or been exiled, along with state investigators, describe it as a tyrannical theocracy.

        "I have a corner of my state that is worse than [under] the Taliban," Utah Atty. Gen. Mark Shurtleff acknowledged.

        Carolyn Jessop, who fled the community under cover of darkness with her eight children in a van and $20 in her pocket, said she still found it "hard to believe this stuff is going on in the United States."

        Jessop, now 38, was the fourth wife of a high-ranking church leader when she escaped that night three years ago. Fear drove her to desperation, she said.

        Her oldest son had been yanked out of school at age 12 by his father to work construction jobs. And she feared that Jeffs, an accused pedophile, planned to take her 13-year-old daughter as his bride.

        "I would have gone to the ends of the Earth to prevent that," Jessop said.

        Lenore Holm discovered the penalty for dissent in this theocratic community. She objected six years ago when the prophet came for her then-15-year-old daughter, Nicole.

        Jeffs told the mother that he had selected her teenager to marry a 39-year-old man.

        "I told Warren I would never give my consent to have my daughter marry that man," she said. "He didn't say much because he was so angry. He told us to get out."

        The entire family was ordered out of their home.

        Holm waged a two-year court fight to block eviction. She kept her house but lost her daughter: The teenager married the man chosen for her by the prophet.

        Most women give in without a fight, handing over their children to what one described as "the wolves scratching at the doors."

        Boys booted out of the community were exiled on the flimsiest of pretexts. The reason, say outside investigators, was to reduce competition for wives.

        Sam Icke was one of more than 400 youths expelled. They are now known as the Lost Boys. His crime was having a girlfriend. He met with Jeffs before his exile.

        "He asked me graphic sex details and took notes," recalled Icke, who was 18 at the time. "I was told to repent, so I went on a repenting spree. I wanted to stay. I was afraid, like a bird being pushed out of its nest. My dad got a call a few days later from Warren and he said I should leave."

        Jeffs' counseling style is evident in a recent report by a Washington County, Utah, sheriff's deputy investigating a rape allegation in Hildale. The victim had been reluctant to marry an older man as ordered.

        Although the girl also was underage for legal marriage, Jeffs said it was her "spiritual duty" to wed the older man. He personally performed the ceremony. When she balked at having sex with her new husband, Jeffs rebuked her.

        The sheriff's report identifies the victim as "Jane Doe IV," who was a teenager at the time she was forced to marry.

        "My best friend got married at 14. Her husband ... started getting on me. I went to my parents; big mistake.... The prophet Leroy Johnson decided I should marry [the abuser]," Petersen recalled. "I'd be his fifth wife and he was 48."

        Petersen said if molesters were caught with a girl, the abusers were often told to marry the victims.

        Unwilling to marry at 14, Petersen ran away to Las Vegas but never really escaped. She learned that her 12-year-old sister had married 39-year-old Colorado City polygamist William Orson Black Jr.

        Petersen tried to intervene. By the time she persuaded authorities to raid Black's house, he had fled with her sister to Mexico. He remains a fugitive.

        Investigators with the Arizona attorney general's office think Colorado City police tipped off Black. The local police also are accused of warning Warren Jeffs when Utah investigators tried, and failed, to serve him with a subpoena.

        His office also is looking into allegations of welfare fraud. Shurtleff said 66% of Hildale residents and 78% in Colorado City received welfare, usually food stamps.

        Goddard asked the U.S. Justice Department to open a civil rights investigation to determine whether the Colorado City police unlawfully expelled boys from town and improperly handled sexual abuse complaints.

        Arizona also is investigating the local school district and has found widespread misuse of state funds.

        "They used [school] credit cards for personal use; they took unnecessary trips. They were paying people who weren't there," said Mike File, superintendent of Mohave County, Ariz., schools. "This district is as corrupt as corrupt gets.

  •  It's a shameful situation. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    empathy, Shane Hensinger, montecristo
    Judge Walther has gotten kudo reviews from the media, but I can't imagine why.

    So far as I am aware, every single child from every single family has been removed.

    In some cases, we're talking about infants being separated from their mothers.  Mothers who have one husband.

    Every single child?

    Worst case of governmental abuse that I've seen in my lifetime.

    Except, of course, for Bush and the Republican's torture chambers.

    •  Indeed, Judge Walther is a hardcore (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      empathy

      Republican who has made a mockery of the Constitution with this. Maybe Bush will appoint her to the Supreme Court if he gets a chance before his term is finished.

      •  It's wrong. (3+ / 0-)

        There is no due process occurring in Walther's court, so far as I can tell.

        You know, we have the same situation occurring in Callahan County with the House of Yahweh, polygamy, etc.

        But Judge Weeks isn't arbitrarily removing all children from every family that is a member of the House of Yahweh.  In fact the removals are few and far between.  Truth is, I don't think there have been any removals (not sure though).

        You just don't take a woman's kids from her because somebody else in the church is breaking the law.  And you don't take a woman's kids from her because of her Old Testament religious beliefs (as misguided as Old Testament ethics and morality may be).

        Best I can tell, this business down in Schleicher County is a raw travesty of justice.  Not a single mother fit to continue to raise her kid?  Not one?  Out of the dozens and dozens of removals?  

        No, not one.

        It's sickening.  Sad.

        There's needs to be a whole lot custody jury trials in El Dorado.  I like Scheicher County juries.  Always been fair to my folks.

        •  asdf (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Odysseus, myboo

          You just don't take a woman's kids from her because somebody else in the church is breaking the law.  And you don't take a woman's kids from her because of her Old Testament religious beliefs

          Neither of those strikes me as obviously correct.  Re: the first, we regularly take kids from abusive households where only one parent is abusive, right?  And that's because it's the household that's fucked up in that case.  So, there's the underbelly to living in a compound, which is comparable to a big household.

          Re: beliefs: it really depends on the beliefs, doesn't it?  If, say, molestation or statutory rape is a tenet of a given person's religion, we're going to weigh that in deciding whether the children are at risk.

  •  Well yes, (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    burrow owl, moiv

    First they issued statistics alleging 60% of teen girls at the ranch were pregnant or had kids, without adding that more than 80% of the girls so identified disputed the agency's assessment of their ages.

    There were also shifting stories on who was related to whom.  Why make it easy for the authorities?

    What on earth does this have to do with Muslims?  Trying to draw any sort of analogy there is just ridiculous.

  •  O.K. Are you saying (8+ / 0-)

    that it was a lie that half of the girls under 17 were pregnant?  I heard that reported.  And that it was O.K. with you if religion disavows our laws on marriage?  That religion alone can allow many women to be married to a single man?  

    Well, what a person can learn about our 'laws' from this place.

    So, we should have left them alone and have very young girls married off?  One girl married to one 22 yr old does not mean that girls under 16 were being married to old men.  

    Abuse seems to be happening all around us these days, but I do not believe for a minute that those underage girls would be better off with those men than getting help on the outside of what appears, to me, to be a cult for the benefit of the men.

    IMO

  •  I am really torn by this (4+ / 0-)

    I believe some sexual occured here and needs to be addressed, but the way the government has taken away all these children from their mothers should give us all pause. ALL the parents are being considered guilty before the court. The original tipster also turned out to be a fraud. These people are getting their children taken away because of association.  

  •  Something stinks about this (5+ / 0-)

    These people are not civil libertarian heroes.

    The abuses that occur in FLDS societies have been well documented.

    Also, I would like a link to your claim that the 17-year-old was actually married to a 22-year-old.

    I love the 25% broken bone statistic and your justification.

    Oh.  And you pointing out the difference between a religious marriage and a civil one?  No agenda there.

    Here's the deal.  I don't have a darned thing against two or more grown people entering into a relationship contract, whether it's civil or religious or what have you.

    I have a HUGE problem forcing teenaged girls to marry old men and kicking out the boys because they are in the way.  

    I have a huge problem with coercion and brainwashing.

    I have a huge problem with these people taking advantage of our welfare laws and bilking our tax payer dollars.

    My solution?  Make polygamy legal.  Keep child abuse illegal.

    •  Justification? (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not justifying anything the FLDS has done. I am pointing out there is no evidence indicating the mothers of those children are guilty of what they've been accused of.

      •  It should be relatively easy to determine ... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Odysseus, texasmom, JVolvo, willb48

        ...the age of that 80% of girls who dispute the state's assessment of their ages by obtaining their birth certificates.

        I also have problems with putting all these kids into foster care - given the wreck that the foster care systems, with well-documented abuses, are in many states. But I also know, having long ago reported on abuse cases, that denial on the part of the abuser is about 95% equaled by denial on the part of the abused (for all kinds of reasons).

        Getting to the bottom of this and exposing any state wrongdoing would be a good thing. But I'm pretty suspicious of the illegal practices of this group, and that suspicion has nothing to do with polygamy.

        I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

        by Meteor Blades on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:31:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades

          But suspicion is not reason to take away an entire group of children. The whole thing reeks of heavy-handedness on the part of the government. I am concerned about the precedent this sets.

        •  Hmmm... come again? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Shane Hensinger

          But I also know, having long ago reported on abuse cases, that denial on the part of the abuser is about 95% equaled by denial on the part of the abused (for all kinds of reasons).

          If abuser and abused both deny the abuse allegation how do you confirm abuse has actually occurred?

          What percentage of those correlated denials are actually false accusations and how do you determine that percentage?

          •  All you have to do is read police logs ... (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Odysseus, texasmom, myboo, JVolvo

            ...and talk to a few psychologists who deal with battering and you will see what I mean. I reported a police/court beat for nearly three years in my earliest days as a journalist. The abused (including children) will often deny they have been abused to protect themselves against further abuse, because they have an economic stake in keeping the abuser out of prison, because they - like many victims - think they have done something wrong to bring on the abuse.

            The situation often gets cleared up when repeated accusations of abuse that are retracted, or claims of abuse by teachers or neighbors that have been denied, are proved to be true when the victim winds up in the hospital - or morgue.

            Of course, there are false accusations of abuse just as there are false accusations of rape. But the numbers are quite low.

            I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

            by Meteor Blades on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:06:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So then this is anecdotal... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Shane Hensinger

              You actually have no idea if the correlation is 25% or 99% and you also have no idea what percentage of these cases are actually false accusations.

              •  As far as I know, there are no studies done ... (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Odysseus, JVolvo

                ...of how many people have been abused and denied it only to have it later shown that they were abused. But, based on nationwide domestic violence statistics, on dozens of cases I saw in court, on hundreds I reviewed in police records (albeit long ago), I guarantee you the figure is well over 25%. So, I guess I can be accused of exaggeration.

                As for false accusations, the closest connection might be those of rape. The FBI says about 9% of rape accusations are unfounded. And many feminists argue that this figure is only as high as it is because proof is not always easy to make.

                I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                by Meteor Blades on Fri May 02, 2008 at 08:36:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ummm... reasoning and methodology? (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Shane Hensinger

                  As for false accusations, the closest connection might be those of rape.

                  Why do you think that?  After all, the vast majority of rape accusations are made by the alleged victim.  The vast majority of abuse allegations are made by third parties.  Why on earth would you expect a correlation?

                  The FBI says about 9% of rape accusations are unfounded.

                  That would greatly surprise me - the FBI is not usually that careless.

                  I suspect the actual statistic is that 9% of rape accusations are later retracted or determined by the investigating agency to be unfounded.

                  Neither the FBI nor anyone else can possibly know what percentage of acquaintance / data rapes are actually false accusations in which consensual sex actually occurred.

                  We can put upper bounds by assuming that cases with significant injuries to the alleged victim are not false accusations (although that may not be correct since you could have consensual sex and then a separate assault) and lower bounds based on the number of retractions and disproved allegations (although that may not be correct since some of those retractions may themselves be false and some disproofs may be incorrect).

                  I strongly suspect that this would leave a huge gap in the middle where we just don't know.

                  •  The vast majority of domestic abuse ... (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Odysseus, martini, JVolvo

                    ...allegations are NOT made by third parties. As for the FBI statistics, argue with the bureau.

                    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                    by Meteor Blades on Fri May 02, 2008 at 09:58:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Wrong on two counts... (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Shane Hensinger

                      The vast majority of domestic abuse allegations are NOT made by third parties.

                      Note the switch from the original discussion of child abuse to domestic abuse.

                      As for the FBI statistics, argue with the bureau.

                      I call bullshit.

                      I challenge you to find a cite for your claim.

                  •  Not playing fair... (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Shane Hensinger

                    I guess it's time to bring a gun into this knife fight... how about some facts?

                    From the CJR

                    ...FBI has been saying since 1991 that the annual rate for the false reporting of forcible sexual assault across the country has been a consistent 8 percent (through 1995, the most recent year available). That's four times higher than the average of the false-reporting rates of the other crimes tracked by the FBI in its Uniform Crime Report. The agency's guidelines define a report as false when an investigation determines that no offense occurred. A complainant's failure or refusal to cooperate in the investigation does not, by itself, lead to a finding of false report.

                    As I suspected, the FBI is discussing allegations that are proven to be false and is not attempting to measure the actual number of false allegations.  This is almost certainly an undercount because it does not include cases where the complainant refuses to cooperate in the investigation.

                    If you look to academe for such studies about false reports, you'll come across the unusually high percentage found by the Purdue University sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, now retired. In an examination of rape reports from 1978 to 1987 in an unnamed midwestern city of 70,000, he found that of the 109 rapes reported to the police, 45, or 41 percent, were subsequently classified as false. Kanin also got the police records of two unnamed large state universities and found that in three years, 50 percent of the 64 rapes reported to campus police were determined to be false.

                    Wow!  40 - 50 of rape reports are false!

                    But finally, the real truth - we just don't know...

                    And some of the studies are obviously limited. Kanin of Purdue warned against reading too much into his examination of the small midwestern city: "Certainly our intent is not to suggest that the 41 percent incidence found here be extrapolated to other populations, particularly in light of our ignorance regarding the structural variables."

                    For the reporter, the conclusion is clear. Don't rely on one source. Talk to the local sexual assault counselors, talk to the local police, talk to the FBI, talk to the academics. Try to make some sense out of all the different numbers. And be careful.

                    •  OK ... (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      martini

                      First, you try to distort what I originally said, which was:

                      The FBI says about 9% of rape accusations are unfounded.

                      Show me, please, exactly where this is wrong. That is exactly what the FBI says. You argue that this is an undercount and the FBI only counts cases proven to be false. But other people say it actually overcounts because writing some cases off as "no offense" simply means they investigators couldn't cut through the he said-she said of the situation, not that they proved no offense took place. Take a look at how such investigations are run in certain locations and you'll soon see that what is called "no offense" does not necessarily mean there definitely was no offense.

                      Kanin's study - which is a regular cut-and-paste among anti-feminist and men's rights groups - has a big methodology problem in that recantations are often caused by pressure to say it didn't happen and by women who quickly see that the treatment they receive from carrying through with their accusation may be fairly awful. So the actual number of those 45 women who recanted who truly made false charges is unknown. Interestingly, only 14 of those women actually named an attacker.

                      It's true, we don't know - can't know - for certain how many instances of rape, how many instances of (adult) domestic abuse, how many instance of child abuse there really are. Nor can we know for certain how many people who claim they were raped or abused   are lying, nor how many who deny they were abused are lying.

                      We'll presumably know fairly soon, however, how many of those girls from Texas were below the age of consent when they first had sex with adult males, and how many of them were otherwise abused.

                      I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                      by Meteor Blades on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:22:03 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Sigh... defending the indefensible (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Shane Hensinger

                        First, you try to distort what I originally said, which was:

                           

                        The FBI says about 9% of rape accusations are unfounded.

                        Show me, please, exactly where this is wrong. That is exactly what the FBI says.

                        What the FBI actually says (as shown by my previous cite) is that in 8% of cases an investigation shows that no offense occurred.

                        The agency's guidelines define a report as false when an investigation determines that no offense occurred.

                        The FBI isn't stupid.  They obviously cannot determine the actual percentage of false rape reports and they aren't stupid enough to claim that they can.

                        But other people say it actually overcounts because writing some cases off as "no offense" simply means they investigators couldn't cut through the he said-she said of the situation, not that they proved no offense took place. Take a look at how such investigations are run in certain locations and you'll soon see that what is called "no offense" does not necessarily mean there definitely was no offense.

                        But other people say that the moon is made of green cheese.

                        I think we need a reference a bit more authoritative than "other people".  I provided a cite.  I think you should too.

                        •  Sigh, indeed. (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          martini

                          If you wish to continue to argue that my use of "unfounded" (American Heritage Dictionary: Not based on fact or sound evidence; groundless) means something different than than the FBI's definition of false, have at it.

                          There are numerous claims about the percentage of rape accusations that are false - ranging from 2% to 60%. All of them suffer from methodological problems - although some have no methodology at all, are, in fact, just an unfounded claim. And even those with ample and solid data are fraught with problems.

                          To offer one example, there is the DOJ study which found that DNA didn't match the accused/primary suspect in 25% of 10,000 cases.

                          Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained (primarily by State and local law enforcement), the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing.

                          Specifically, FBI officials report that out of
                          roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989,
                          about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive (usually
                          insufficient high molecular weight DNA to do
                          testing), about 2,000 tests have excluded the
                          primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or
                          included the primary suspect. The fact that these
                          percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and
                          that the National Institute of Justice's informal
                          survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly
                          similar 26-percent exclusion rate, strongly
                          suggests that postarrest and postconviction DNA
                          exonerations are tied to some strong, underlying
                          systemic problems that generate erroneous
                          accusations and convictions.

                          Some folks have been confused by this statistic into claiming that this is proof that a fourth of rape accusations are false. No such thing. All it shows is that the person accused (by victim or police) is not the person who committed a rape, not that the rape did not occur. And it says nothing about the percentage of DNA mismatches tells us nothing about the percentage of rape cases where the accuser fabricated a rape.

                          I stand by my original statement, if not the "statistic" I tossed out. The percentage of people who are abused (adult or children) who deny it, at least initially, or who recant it after claiming it, is high. Based on my in-court experience, my viewing of police records, my interviews with rape counselors and battered women shelter coordinators, I believe the percentage of deniers who have been abused is extraordinarily high.

                          I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

                          by Meteor Blades on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:09:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry Shane. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, JVolvo, willb48

    I'm reading Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven and it seems that sect (the FLDS) has such a long history of breaking the laws of the United States. It's hard to believe that Texas hasn't stopped them before now.

    Krakauer book is not about the group in Texas, but about the whole sect, which personally I believe is a cult. I understand your outrage at the State interefering with family issues, but this time I really think it's different.

    Those people are too scared to tell the truth and
    according to Krakauer, they are almost all related to each other. Furthermore one wonders if all of those unmarried women with children (under Texas law, not FLDS law) are collecting welfare as they are in Arizona and Utah.

    •  Not a single person was collecting welfare (0+ / 0-)

      on the ranch other than elderly getting Social Security and a couple of disabled people.

      I read that book as well. It's more about violent off-shoots like the Lebaron's. The FLDS has never been violent.

      •  How do you know this? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        mldostert, JVolvo

        And why are you carrying their water?

        The FLDS has never been violent?  How do you know?  Have you ever heard of blood atonement?

        And where's that link about the 17-year-old marrying the 22-year-old?

        I am glad that Texas has stood up to them, unlike Arizona and Utah.

        What occurs there is so wrong on so many levels.  

        Speaking of disabled people and the FLDS, they are now so inbred that they are having physiological problems:

        "Inbreeding among polygamists along the Arizona-Utah border is producing a caste of severely retarded and deformed children"

        http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/...

        If I'm expected to support a war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, then I should not allow similar things to go on in my own country.

      •  Ever lived in Utah? Ever met any FLDS? (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        burrow owl, myboo, JVolvo, GoldnI

        I've done both - and Shane, you are WAY off base here.

        While I hold no brief for Texas, or their child welfare programs - they have done the only thing they could do.

        Before you cast these people as victims, Google FLDS and Teenage brides.  Then Google FLDS and the "lost boys" in Utah.

        When presented with proof - in the form of dozens and dozens of pregnant teenaged girls - that Texas laws were being broken, the authorities HAD NO CHOICE but to remove the children.

        The women seen lying their asses off on Anderson Cooper are NOT victims of the Texas Authorities - but rather, victims of the violent, perverted men of the FLDS.

        If, in fact, the FLDS were NOT sexually abusing children, all they had to do was tell the authorities the truth, give their correct names, and the children would have been left with them.

        Shane, what is your expertise in this area?  Have you studied the FLDS, and their ongoing pattern of sexual abuse of minors and forced incest?Since the simplest google search will turn up hundreds of stories about exactly that, I think you know either nothing - or way, way too much - about the FLDS.

        And what is your basis for saying that nobody in the compound was on welfare? the FLDS themselves?  Because trust me, they are lying.  In Utah, the FLDS have made an art form of drawing as much welfare as possible

        Believe me, these people are NOT civil liberties martyrs - they are fundamentalist sexual perversion, writ large.  And every damn one of the men in that compound - that is, those who haven't already skedadled - should be locked up immediately.

        •  Yes! (0+ / 0-)

          Finally someone admits the truth - they want every damn man from the FLDS locked up regardless of the evidence. And Google is as good a source of evidence as anything!

          I appreciate you sharing your POV.

          •  Answer my question - (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Odysseus, myboo, JVolvo

            WHAT is your knowledge of the FLDS Church?  Are you a member?

            Google, you silly boy,answers nothing.  It is a SEARCH ENGINE  (look it up) that points you to evidence to support a claim.  In this case,  hundreds and hundreds of links to stories in the Salt Lake and Phoenix newspapers about the FLDS sexual abuse of underage women, for decades and decades.

            And don't give me that crap about the "lost boys" being a Colorado City problem, having nothing to do with the Texas ranch - the Texas Ranch is merely the latest offshoot of the Colorado City/Warren Jeffs FLDS, it is all the same thing and controlled by Jeffs -

            - as you would know, if you either a) knew anything ABOUT the FLDS, or b) weren't yourself a member OF the FLDS.

            I tell you what - since the men in that compound are innocent, why have they all left the state?  And If they are innocent of the sexual abuse of minors, why have they left rather then submit to DNA testing - since they are so innocent?

            Answer the question - are you a member of the FLDS?  If not - what do you know about them, other than what you've seen on TV?

            •  Is this the House Committee on Anti-American (0+ / 0-)

              Activities?

              I don't have to answer a single one of your goddamned questions. Read my blog, how many FLDS members do you know who are

              A. Gay

              and

              C. Go to Bungalow 8 on a regular basis?

              •  well, since you're posing as the expert on FLDS (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Meteor Blades, Odysseus, JVolvo

                Your posting would carry more weight if you had any actual knowledge of the subject, other than what you've seen on TV.

                Which you evidently don't.(witness your statement that Colorado City and Texas are two different  things, rather than two different outposts of the Warren Jeffs-controlled FLDS)

                To answer YOUR questions.

                1. No, I am not LDS - or FLDS, which are two different things. Never was. (raised Lutheran)
                1. While in Utah, I worked as a journalist - covered one FLDS story, was close friends with journalists who covered them as a regualr beat.  (Trust me, if you are a journalist and  live in Utah for 15 years,you're going to hear a LOT about the FLDS.)

                (FYI, Polygamy comes in all flavors and clans - the Barlows, the Allreds, etc - some loonier than others, some more violent than others - but the sexual abuse of young girls is common to them all. )

                I'm just saying - that anyone who is at all familiar with the FLDS, and their long history of violent sexual abuse of minors, is going to find any attempt to portray them as some kind of civil liberties martyrs ridiculous.  

                •  Well thanks for that (0+ / 0-)

                  but my aunt is FLDS, has been since 1979 and as a kid I spent summers in Hilldale and have nothing but positive memories of the place. And guess what? All my aunt's children left the FLDS and they have no problem going back and visiting and none of them were abused.

                  So take that Mr/Ms Smarty Pants Journalist!

                •  And thanks for clearing up the (0+ / 0-)

                  issue of the LDS and FLDS. I asked for a reason. Like I didn't know the diff.

                  •  So You have FLDS Family, You lived in Hilldale (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Odysseus, JVolvo
                    - and you're on this board, pretending to be an unbiased defender of civil liberties?

                    Sorry, Shane - you just blew your cover.

                    Hilldale, Utah/Colorado City, Arizona  - one city, divided by a street) is the HEADQUARTERS of Warren Jeffs  - that well-known civil libertarian, child rapist, and leader of the FLDS.

                    DailyKos is the wrong place to be defending people who regularly sexually abuse underage girls.  (The issue you refuse to address. )

                    And it's also the wrong place to pretend to be an unbiased comenter, when you're not.

                    For those not familiar, here are some highlights on Hilldale, Utah - the diarist's favorite summer vacation spot:

                    Welfare Fraud, Sexual Abuse in Hilldale

                    According to law enforcement officials and others familiar with how plural marriage operates, the problems usually associated with polygamy include:

                    High levels of incest, child abuse and wife battering. But the crimes are rarely reported because of the secrecy surrounding polygamous communities, law enforcement officials say.

                    Widespread reliance on welfare. In the tiny town of Hildale, for example, along the Utah-Arizona border, as many as 50% of the residents are on public assistance, according to state and federal records. The fraud occurs when plural wives claim they don't know the whereabouts of their children's father.

                    Unusual levels of child poverty. For example, across the street from Hildale in Colorado City, Ariz., every school-age child in town was living below the poverty level, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates from 1997, the most current available.

                    Wide-ranging tax fraud. Polygamists often underestimate their income or, as in Green's case, don't file returns at all.

                    Limited educational opportunities. Last year the prophet of the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints Church, a group excommunicated more than a century ago for practicing polygamy, ordered the town's children to stop attending public school, resulting in the closure of the local elementary school.

                    Overtaxed public services. Medicaid pays for more than one-third of the babies

                    •  Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (0+ / 0-)

                      I am a gay Jew living in New York. Because my aunt became FLDS after divorcing my uncle doesn't mean I'm FLDS.

                      Don't tell me what Daily Kos is for. I'm not the only progressive person questioning the raid and the constitutional basis for it.

                      You really need to sharpen your investigative skills if you wanna be an ace reporter, LOL.

                      •  Who has been lying his ass off (2+ / 1-)

                        Recommended by:
                        martini, JVolvo
                        Hidden by:
                        Shane Hensinger

                        in this whole diary.

                        Unless you discuss the sexual abuse of minors - this whoe diary is crap.

                        •  Sorry you're bored by sexual abuse of young girls (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          martini

                          believe me, the rest of the KOS comunity is not nearly so blase' on the topic.

                          (look at your UID number. Now look at mine. I know whereof I speak. )

                          •  Salt Lake Tribune numbers on boys vs girls (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Bernie68

                            in YFZ:

                            There are a total of 463 FLDS children - 250 females, 213 males - in state custody in Texas. Here is a breakdown of that count:

                              * 0-2: 101, 49 females, 52 males
                              * 3-5: 99, 46 females, 53 males
                              * 6-9: 131, 68 females, 63 males
                              * 10-13: 62, 34 females, 28 males
                              * 14-17: 42, 27 females, 15 males
                              * Disputed age: 26 females, now classified as 17 or younger.
                              * Two boys who turned 18 while in state custody also have voluntarily chosen to stay with younger boys.

                            Source: Texas Child Protective Services

                            Although, with the birth of the baby boy the other day, that'd be 53 males age 0-2 versus 49 females that age.

                            Weird, how by age 6-9, the boys start being outnumbered, and by age 14-17, it's almost 2 girls for every boy.  More, if you factor in the disputed-age girls, then it's about 4 girls for every boy.

                            That, at least, seems to support all the reports of Lost Boys.

                        •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

                          You sound like Torquemada.

                          Where you as bad of a journalist as you are an interrogator? Is that why you're here, trying to malign me?

                          Have you gone through previous comments of mine? Are you aware I've never hidden my "connection" to having a family member who is FLDS?

                          You're making me sick. I'm going to go to B8 now - to do some very unFLDS things.

            •  What's YOUR knowledge? (0+ / 0-)

              You lived in Utah? Big whoop. Are YOU LDS?

        •  just finished the book by Jon Krakauer... (0+ / 0-)

          Evidently, it's OK to do what's called "lying for the Lord" if you are FLDS.

  •  Don't Mess With My Horns! (0+ / 0-)

    Today Ain't Yesterday

    by GB1437a on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:37:13 PM PDT

  •  I do have a question, other than your UT comment (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus

    Why were they sent to Churches?  Is not there something wrong with that.  My folks sent me to Baptists Private School in Texas and I know all those Church Moms were trying to convert them.

    Today Ain't Yesterday

    by GB1437a on Fri May 02, 2008 at 07:38:14 PM PDT

  •  Polygamous Sects Excommunicate and Exile the Boys (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    willb48

    That's the math - there is always an excess of boys to get rid of. Hasn't this sect dumped hundreds of adolescent boys into the streets with little knowledge of the outside world, let alone survival skills? And with the message drilled into their heads that they are damned, evil, and shunned by their families?

  •  Child abuse (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, Odysseus, JVolvo

    To keep the children in total ignorance of the outside world is inherently abusive.  CPS is doing the best it can under the circumstances.  It's shameful that the State of Texas starves their budget.

    The DNA testing underway, plus evidence found in a safe in the temple - FLDS and LDS are very interested in genealogy - should sort out the family trees.

    I don't have a problem with polygamy, but child-marriage is a very bad thing.

  •  This has been a horror. (