Blah blah blah we won but we can't say it because Clinton is still pretending she has a shot.
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It's all in the numbers - register voters for Obama, Today!
by Blue Waters Run Deep on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:24 PM PDT
The Road - a meandering state of blog.
by aerojad on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:47 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
by Blue Waters Run Deep on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:15:18 PM PDT
That's the smack down, baby!
"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. Sail out to sea and do new things." - Admiral Grace Hopper, Computer Pioneer
by chrisblask on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:23:35 PM PDT
What a speech!
Rupert Murdoch is on the Associated Press Board of Directors!!!
by Lava20 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:31:52 PM PDT
eh?
:~)
Gettysburg - Lincoln's just words...
-chris
by chrisblask on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:35:29 PM PDT
by Blue Waters Run Deep on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:55 PM PDT
as that is how he always answers shouts of love. (Well public ones)
by joynow on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:01:31 PM PDT
Thanks - I do believe he does.
by Blue Waters Run Deep on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:13:57 PM PDT
White Americans.
by bakenjuddy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:21:34 PM PDT
Clearly that crowd is nothing but black Iowans. All 7 of them showed up to support "nothing but words." That's the only reason why he's winning.'t
Same reason he won Oregon. The majority militant black Muslim vote of Oregon really doesn represent Americans.
/snark
by Lava20 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:34:53 PM PDT
...of a screaming teenage girl at a Beetles concert?
McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist
by sgilman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:23:22 PM PDT
...I don't care.
The great thing about text: no volume.
I got nothing.
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:24:40 PM PDT
The Journal of Interesting Times
by jbalazs on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:27 PM PDT
well done kos. In the early days I started coming here because of your writing... So short and pithy. This is a gem.
by PLS on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:43 PM PDT
Jabberwonk! Reality Based Liberal Link Dump
by Jimmy Crackcorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:18:59 PM PDT
in Iowa!! Hell yes.
by JTRicher on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:34 PM PDT
I love the way Obama addresses a crowd.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
by darthstar on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:35 PM PDT
and like he cares about them? Like that?
by Vita Brevis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:18 PM PDT
by darthstar on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:18:08 PM PDT
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." W B Yeats
by stonepier on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:18:17 PM PDT
like a compassionate human being with integrity. Like that.
"People will forget what you said. People will forget what you did. But people will never forget how you made them feel." - Maya Angelou
by Orlaine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:22:45 PM PDT
blah blah Clinton is annoying..
by dark daze on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:39 PM PDT
Why pretend....
We are watching John McCain decompose right before our very eyes..
by TennesseeGurl on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:15 PM PDT
I don't know, just a guess.
Seriously, when did Kos become so rude?
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:57 PM PDT
when Clinton started putting herself and her ego above the party I would guess
by dark daze on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:15 PM PDT
Hillary has an ego, therefore Kos can be rude?
I'm not sure I follow that logic.
But then, I have a hard time following a lot of the logic around here these days.
Man, I miss the old DKos...
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:17:38 PM PDT
by citizenx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:18:48 PM PDT
For years before I felt compelled to jump in. Sorry if my "new" ID offends you.
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:19:33 PM PDT
by citizenx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:21:39 PM PDT
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - Orwell
by MAORCA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:22:10 PM PDT
I've been reading blogs for years, but until this primary season, I guess I was intimdated. I didn't feel that I had anything to add. The level of reporting seemed to take more time and effort than I was willing to give. The writing was superb. And honestly, I didn't think that I had anything new or different to add to the conversations.
I'm sorry if you think that makes me a troll. I'm sorry if you think I'm some Hillary (or, god forbid, McCain) hack. I'm not. I'm just another liberal who likes talking about politics.
I don't really care if you don't believe me. I don't know you, and I don't have anything to prove to you.
If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it.
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:27:11 PM PDT
Me too. Been lurking for at least four years. Just started commenting a few months ago (I think it was aabout Rachel Maddow, not sure though). And I don't even know how to tell what my number is.
Having an idiot-proof system doesn't mean you don't have idiots. It just means you can transcend them. Jonathan Turley
by janmtairy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:38:37 PM PDT
And at the bottom of the screen, you'll see your ID number (yours is 146542).
I find the whole "user ID" battle interesting. Apparently, unless you've been posting here for years, you lack credibility.
For a party that espouses inclusiveness and bringing in new people, we seem to have a lot of problems actually practicing that among ourselves.
Sigh.
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:42:38 PM PDT
To care about your user id is an ad hominem. The only thing that matters is the message.
And before you attack, check mine. I've been here for a while.
by krark on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:49:56 PM PDT
(See, THAT was snark.)
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:52:06 PM PDT
This sort of suspicion and needling of new people is really just what happens on the internet. I think it's because we can't see each other and there are so many sockpuppets and trolls. People get paranoid.
Ask me about my sig line.
by LeanneB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:27:27 PM PDT
I just realized you're newer than I am. Guess your crediliby should REALLY be questioned.
Jeez.
(Do you see how pointless this is?)
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:58:49 PM PDT
trolls here. Forgive him AM. Welcome back to the fold. One kickass feminist democrat to another. {{{AM}}} Go Obama!
Donate to the DNC . We don't have RNC/McSame lobbyists throwing money to us by the bagful.
by soms on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:24:32 PM PDT
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:27:40 PM PDT
but Kos is often not polite...it's part of his charm.
by housesella on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:24:41 PM PDT
I guess that's the difference. I can appreciate good snark as much as the next person, but it seems to be that this primary has really brought out the ugliness of everyone, including Kos.
I used to enjoy reading his posts -- and I still enjoy his non-primary posts -- but I can't stand his primary coverage anymore.
Here's hoping we can return to good clean fun when the primaries are over...
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:30:00 PM PDT
and hopefully soon we can quit fighting amongst ourselves and arguing with other democrats.
I'm as ready as anyone and I apologize if my above reply to you was taken the wrong way.
by citizenx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:33:41 PM PDT
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:38:07 PM PDT
by LeanneB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:20:46 PM PDT
I think it was snark but you you may be a bit thin of skin to take this much offense
by Russ1985 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:20:51 PM PDT
Despite Obama's (all-but-certain) victory in Oregon, there seems to be an awful lot of spite and angriness toward Clinton tonight. I don't get it.
Even though I read diaries every day talking about how Obama is the winner, Hillary has no chance, et cetera, seems like everyone's really angry and bitter right now.
So, yeah, maybe it's snark. But I'm getting tired of "snark" about how Hillary and everyone who believes in her is going straight to the tenth circle of Hell.
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:24:10 PM PDT
{{{hugs AM}}} One kickass feminist to another!
by soms on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:25:59 PM PDT
part of the anger is that she said again tonight things like she has the popular vote (very unfair and strange math) and that she will take it to the convention floor.
This is the type of actions (coming from the candidate herself) that tends to get the dander up of many people.
I am usually polite, but even I am so angry with how she has been acting that I had to yell at the TV, and have rec'ed some things others have said ha I normally never would
by housesella on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:28:04 PM PDT
Certainly we've all crossed the line at some point (although some of try harder not to, and some of us seem to live for doing so).
I find it painful that sometimes everyone's in a "kiss and make up" mood, and then we have days like today, where everyone's in a spiteful, hateful, "fuck Hillary and her suppporters" mood.
I prefer the "kiss and make up" mood better. But then, I am a liberal after all...
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:32:03 PM PDT
hate to be confrontational in either person or over the intertubes, but I can see and appreciate the frustration from so many, especially since there has been a whole lot of "lets play nice" stuff and then they feel almost betrayed by Clinton herself who does not seem to want to play nice yet.
by housesella on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:35:27 PM PDT
for makeup sex. ;)
This should be a glorious night for the Obama campaign -- Obama's reached a milestone, and we should be starting to focus on the real goal of November. But instead they're forced to tread softly so as not to hurt anyone's feelings. It's like if the NFL had told the NY Giants in February, "Okay, you won the Super Bowl -- but we're not going to have the post-game celebration and awarding of the Lombardi Trophy because we don't want to insult Bill Belichick and Tom Brady."
Clinton lost fairly and squarely, under the rules in place. If she didn't like caucuses, she should have spoken up earlier -- but she was perfectly fine with them when it was her husband winning them in the 1990s. It wasn't till she started losing them that they became "unfair" and "disenfranchising". She was okay with disregarding the results in MI and FL because they broke the rules -- until she needed those delegates to remain relevant. If the roles were reversed, she wouldn't be talking about popular vote, but would stress number of delegates.
And I'm sick of this "he can't take the white vote" crap -- guess all those African-Americans in ID have really good makeup jobs to pass as white...
"Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher
by Cali Scribe on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:43:33 PM PDT
If you are going to insist upon following "The Rules," then you must admit that, under said rules, Obama has not yet won the nomination. Now, that doesn't mean he isn't going to -- I realize that he will -- but the idea that he should be able to claim victory tonight, but Hillary just won't let him, is, I think, dishonest.
He can claim victory when (a) she drops out or (b) when he gets the required number of delegates.
So the idea that he should be able to claim victory tonight is, in my opinion, misguided. (That doesn't mean, of course, that he can't claim victory for Oregon, once the polls are closed. But victory as the nominee? Not yet.)
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:50:38 PM PDT
he should be able to claim that he's won the nomination. We'd just like to celebrate that he's won presumptive nominee status. At the very least, we would like Hillary to stop outright lying about the numbers and her chances. That's where the anger and pissiness is coming from. The damned lies! Let's talk about the place that lying has among Democrats.
by LeanneB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:33:45 PM PDT
to the 10th circle of Hell -- but Clinton's in danger of dragging the country there if she continues to provide the Republicans with campaign fodder against Obama...
by Cali Scribe on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:32:31 PM PDT
And we did actually cheer for Hillary And for the party not being divided.
Democrats promote the Common good. Republicans promote Corporate greed.
by murasaki on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:42:22 PM PDT
...opponents and Hillary has done a hell of a job in turning party 'activists' into her opponents.
But hey, lobbyists are people too....
by sgilman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:34:34 PM PDT
John McCain--Anti-choice and anti-woman!
by Sharoney on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:17 PM PDT
Democrats aren't supposed to be assholes.
Guess no one told that to McAuliffe.
by LeanneB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:17:13 PM PDT
Clinton gang.
by MAORCA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:22:52 PM PDT
his record is one of working for the GOP in 2000 and 2004.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
by IamTheJudge on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:25:16 PM PDT
in Kentucky!
I don't know anything about Appalacia - and I am reaching the conclusion that I don't want to...
by Massconfusion on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:26:08 PM PDT
"When did kos become so rude?"
Where you been? We're all vituperative bloggers now.
Free Barney!
by demkat620 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:19:55 PM PDT
But I try not to be. Silly me.
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:21:31 PM PDT
we're old pros at being rabid lambs. ;)
by demkat620 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:23:47 PM PDT
Go democrat! Go Obama!
by soms on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:26:59 PM PDT
<-----line up here</p>
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:26:44 PM PDT
adjective marked by harshly abusive criticism
by Rick Winrod on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:30:08 PM PDT
equate with being an asshole?
http://www.freejohnwalker.net/
by berkelbees on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:23:38 PM PDT
Always.
As in...forever.
As in...always.
He's as delicate as a balpeen hammer to the noggin.
Always has been.
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:26:11 PM PDT
Irreverence is his style. Him and Al Giordano. Love them for that!
by soms on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:28:37 PM PDT
...who put far too high a value on themselves than they have a right to.
Kos is good for that (all the while not being so self absorbed that he joins that list).
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:36:53 PM PDT
when it's directed at Republicans. Instead of, you know, our own party.
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:36:30 PM PDT
...with Kos criticising democrats.
It's very easy to get trapped in the team (i.e. MOB) mindset of politics. But the simple truth is, if the democratic party is to become and remain strong, it is our responsibility to criticise our elected representitives.
We should be fair but not gentle. Praise them when they do right, and call them to the carpet when they do wrong.
I have always admired Kos for that. Whether I agree with his assessment or not, at least I can be confident that he's not some fawning sychophant cheerleader.
We really need to stay away from that mindset.
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:40:33 PM PDT
I think that Kos (and other participants on this site) have wrongly lumped Clinton in with those "Democrats" who rightly deserve to be expelled from the party.
Despite what many have said around here, Clinton is NOT Lieberman or Zell Miller. We are right to condemn Lieberman, but I don't think Hillary is at all like Lieberman, and does not deserve the same level of scorn and hate.
I realize that attitude makes me a minority here, but I simply do not believe she deserves the treatment she has received here.
I'm all for Kos calling out Democrats who don't behave like Democrats. It's one of the reasons I started reading this site years ago.
But (and again, I know I'm in the minority), I believe that Hillary is a Democrat, that she is a GOOD Democrat (although I don't agree with her on everything, but I don't think there's a single Democrat with whom I agree on everything), and I don't think she deserves to be treated like she's not a Democrat.
by Angry Mouse on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:47:54 PM PDT
I don't recall Kos ever advocating for the explusion of Clinton from the democratic party.
Ever. He's been harsh on her behavior but I don't think he's been unfairly harsh.
In fact, I don't even know if he advocated for Lieberman's expulsion from the party (maybe for the caucus but that's understandable given the circumstances).
I have heard him cricize Obama and get called a Clinton shill and then a week later claim to vote for Obama and be called an obamabot.
We have got to stop feeding into this us vs them mentality. I'ts possible to support someone and not agree with everything and it's possible to oppose someone without demonizing them.
I think Kos handles that just fine.
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:11:25 PM PDT
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley
by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:49:12 PM PDT
Bring on McSame!
by citizenx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:48 PM PDT
Luke returns to Tatooine feel to it.
by Randolph06 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:02 PM PDT
by Bush B Gone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:21:41 PM PDT
by Cali Scribe on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:45:21 PM PDT
First it was the jeans on the plane - "Game Over". Back in Iowa? That is a pretty clear "I'm starting the next phase."
Won't come out and say it, will let her withdraw with dignity, should she have the sense to do so, but it's over ... no matter what happens with Florida and Michigan :-)
by Stranded Wind on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:18:06 PM PDT
Prediction of the night.
by Four of Nine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:50 PM PDT
Least the Pelosi club can be counted now.
by Wanderer on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:13:54 PM PDT
Assuming that the superdelegates are attached to dragging this fight on and on. I'm thinking the Rules committee won't like it either. So it'll be onto Denver and Credentials. But the supers aren't gonna go for that, that's what I think.
Well, she has had a few other mistakes, too, come to think of it.
John McCain voted against health care for kids.
by Land of Enchantment on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:09 PM PDT
Do they plan bridge? Pinnocle? eucre?
Can anyone join or do you have to win an election?
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:27:49 PM PDT
discuss among other things the downfall of *'turdblossom' who they want to bring down!!
*turdblossom-Karl 'hack' aka 'asshole' Rove.
by soms on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:30:59 PM PDT
to cut their lawns, when certain 'other' people aren't standing on the lawns, and/or holding signs. its kinda exclusive. they don't let in 'little' people either.
by pickandshovel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:42:57 PM PDT
the youngest daughter looks a little miffed about the whole thing but still :)
"To you, I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." - Woody Allen
by soros on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:16 PM PDT
but I feel strange saying things like that about our future president. ;-)
**Less than four months until the general election.** Just a reminder for those who have other priorities.
by Spathiphyllum on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:17:39 PM PDT
He wears a black suit so well, I decided to copy him. Just picked it up today...
Very sharp.
by harrije on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:19:00 PM PDT
Me, I'm a middle aged overweight white woman. But I still want to wear a black suit and look that goooood. Meanwhile, about substance, he just kissed Hillary's ..... ring (bet you thought I was going to say something else!).
by janmtairy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:23:31 PM PDT
Looks damned good if I am allowed to say that about myself without sounding too conceited.
I'm no Barack Obama, though.
by harrije on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:25:07 PM PDT
Awesome.. adapting...evolving...kicking ass!!! What are they going to say now???? Or maybe it's a small pin of the constitution.
by dancerat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:27:14 PM PDT
by soros on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:38:56 PM PDT
gave him a pin, and he's wearing it for him. I think I read that here, actually...
Join us in the Grieving Room on Monday evenings to discuss mourning and loss.
by Dem in the heart of Texas on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:41:23 PM PDT
... would mention that "I have the most votes" spiel leaves out several states that had caucuses. They mention MI & FL all the time, but leave out the caucus angle most of the time.
by Land of Enchantment on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:27 PM PDT
...thing I hear out of Clinton supporters. They claim she's fighting for every vote to count (because of MI and FL), and then she completely dismisses entire states for having the poor manners of holding caucuses. They don't even get the hypocricy of it.
Even though I don't care much for caucuses outside of deciding local nominations, I don't feel it's my place to dictate to states on how to run their elections. Nor do I feel it's Clinton's place either but she's certainly been in the forefront of that particular wasp's nest.
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:30:16 PM PDT
They accept what they are told, without checking for themselves. Without asking any questions. Which is a good deal more excusable when it comes from John Q. Public, rather than from the highly paid professional commentator. If the talking heads would also think, more people might catch on to this Catch-22.
Obama would have run a different campaign if popular vote decided it. No matter what you think of the rules, if you respect process like Obama does, you don't try to sabotage it.
by Land of Enchantment on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:07:35 PM PDT
WE ( on the left) are supposed to be better than that.
I don't want to think that we suffer from the same mindless wingnuttery that the right has.
by DawnG on Tue May 20, 2008 at 08:12:43 PM PDT
I dress up in white jumpsuits and prance around like Elvis ; doesn't mean I am or will be , though .......
by MCMetal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:29 PM PDT
by Massconfusion on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:27:41 PM PDT
was Chuck Todd talking about just before Barack: That Clinton will net 200K+ popular vote tonight?
Is Chuck even counting Oregon?
by Penman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:41 PM PDT
Chucky was just dreaming about potential boyfriends for himself ............
by MCMetal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:15:28 PM PDT
Oh Chuckie.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. ~George Orwell
by ElizabethAM on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:19:21 PM PDT
Once the polls actually close, they can start talking about the results, but until that happens, they can't say anything substantive about Oregon.
-dms
Having trouble finding stuff on Daily Kos? This page has some handy hints and tricks.
by dmsilev on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:10 PM PDT
Since OR is going to cancel out at least most of that. A 60-40 split with 700k voters (a possible outcome) would be a 140k net gain.
"Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown
by skywaker9 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:14 PM PDT
And these are the minutes that really matter. Haven't you gotten the knack of Clinton thinking yet?
by Land of Enchantment on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:17:38 PM PDT
by maxnyc on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:16:35 PM PDT
... that Clinton math includes zeroing out several caucus states. Him and the rest of the chattering class, for that matter.
by Land of Enchantment on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:18:25 PM PDT
and it is making me so mad that according to the latest version of "Hillary math", caucus voters don't count. I wish one of them would call her out on that BS.
"Patriotism is no more about signs or pins than religion is about reminding others how pious we think we are." -- Bob Schieffer
by sable on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:25:28 PM PDT
who are paid millions dont know sometimes
by maxnyc on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:39:01 PM PDT
wrong people are being paid the big bucks. Just sayin'! ;)
by sable on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:53:24 PM PDT
A rare miss by C-Todd.
I'll forgive him for when he corrected Keith earlier in the night about the fact that this isn't PhD material, it's Stats 101.
-5.5, -4.2
by yazilikaya on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:17:11 PM PDT
We learned things like "adding," "less than," and "greater than" back in 3rd grade math class.
by harrije on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:21:10 PM PDT
the rationale for what Hillary said tonight. Where do you get the numbers? That was what he was saying.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
by empathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:28:26 PM PDT
OH-16: John Boccieri will finally end 36 years of Regula Rule.
by marcvstraianvs on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:46 PM PDT
It looks like only one side of his face is lit, and one side is heavily shadowed. Odd.
by dmsilev on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:51 PM PDT
by maxnyc on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:17:29 PM PDT
we all respect your effort, but it's time.
by Four of Nine on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:54 PM PDT
John McCain "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian
by notquitedelilah on Tue May 20, 2008 at 07:14:55 PM PDT
