Daily Kos

Jim Webb is Growing on Me

Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:09:11 PM PDT

I didn't see any recent diaries on this. If one exists, I'll be happy to delete.

Right now, my sig line says "Obama/Sebelius 2008" and it links to the YouTube video of Governor Sebelius endorsing Senator Obama a few days before Super Tuesday.

I think Governor Sebelius would bring a lot to the Obama ticket. As a female governor from a red state, she reinforces Obama's message of unity and could bring frustrated Clinton voters back into the fold, among other things.

On the flip side, I haven't been all that open to the idea of a Vice President Webb. I like Senator Webb, but have never been as impressed as others are with his political skills. Furthermore, I'm concerned that if Obama chooses a running mate with a strong military background, he could potentially reinforce the idea that he is weak on foreign policy.

That said, I have remained open-minded. I'm more than willing to be persuaded, and Senator Webb, recently, has been pushing all the right buttons.

"Rechanging Populist American Politics" below the fold...

Will Thomas at HuffPo just posted an article about Senator Jim Webb's appearance on Morning Joe today, where the Senator addressed the disconnect between the Obama campaign and BigMedia's new favorite demographic, the white working class, specifically in Appalachia. Senator Webb emphasized that the problem is not necessarily with Senator Obama himself, but the frustration and dare I say, bitterness of the economic situation in which these generally Scotch-Irish Americans find themselves:

[Obama is] saying a lot of good things that will appeal to this cultural group in time.

Webb scoffs at the idea that this group is racist, offering an example of one source of their frustration:

This isn't Selma, 1965. This is a result of how affirmative action, which was basically a justifiable concept when it applied to African Americans, expanded to every single ethnic group in America that was not white, and these were the people who had not received benefits and were not getting anything out of it...

Black America and Scotch-Irish America are like tortured siblings. They both have long history and they both missed the boat when it came to the larger benefits that a lot of other people were able to receive. There's a saying in the Appalachian mountains that they say to one another, and it's, "if you're poor and white, you're out of sight.

Where have I heard this basic argument before?

Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time. - Senator Barack Obama, A More Perfect Union, March 18, 2008

But Webb takes it one step further:

If this cultural group could get at the same table as black America you could rechange populist American politics. Because they have so much in common in terms of what they need out of government.

I appreciate Senator Webb's willingness to discuss race-based frustration in honest terms, speaking to Americans not in sterilized sound bytes, but like we're grown ups. I think his life experience affords him the ability to speak about racial tension articulately and in a way that is not offensive.

As Senator Obama said in his now famous speech:

[R]ace is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now.

Perhaps Senator Webb is the right person to help Senator Obama advance the conversation.

Watch the whole interview. The discussion on the Kentucky Primary and the race chasm starts around 4:25:

<iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/24758234#24758234" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Update: Well, so much for the video. MSNBC needs to work on providing more user-friendly online content. It's embedded in the original article which is linked above if you're interested.

Poll

VP?

5%10 votes
8%16 votes
0%0 votes
11%22 votes
9%18 votes
54%107 votes
2%5 votes
9%19 votes

| 197 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Barack Obama, Jim Webb, Kathleen Sebelius, VP, 2008 Election, Race, Kentucky Primary (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 90 comments

  •  Tips? (25+ / 0-)

    If you didn't catch it, Senator Webb was on Meet the Press Sunday, talking about his G.I. Bill and Bush's veto threat:

    Forming a bipartisan coalition to address a major problem in our country without playing politics... sounds like veep material to me!

    At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

    by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:11:13 PM PDT

  •  Webb is growing on me too... (11+ / 0-)

    ...but I find him humorless, and fear that he will not be a very strong campaigner or a very organic fit for VP.

    Of course I may be wrong.  That's happened before.

    "I've waited all my life for a Republican Barack Obama. Now he shows up and he's a Democrat." - Frank Luntz

    by The Termite on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:11:18 PM PDT

    •  Hmm... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      The Termite, TomP

      that's sort of how I feel. His stiffness is a turnoff for me. But, maybe it's a plus for others.

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:12:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think Obama has enough charisma (10+ / 0-)

      for 10 people. I think having a serious person on the ticket is nothing but good for him. I think Webb is a great fit. He is definitely winning me over this week.

      E Pluribus Unum - Out of Many, One! John McCain - No health care for Kids!

      by joyncassie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:17:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama has got PLENTY of strong campaigners (6+ / 0-)

      Webb would be the serious, no-nonsense side of the ticket.
      Obama's rhetoric can overshoot some of the down-and-out types in the South and Appalachia. (The people who don't talk about hopes and dreams). They've got very different rhetorical styles, but they have the same approach (good ideas, keep politics out of it) and he can lend Obama some of that military cred that he's lacking.
      Webb could build that bridge to those conservative white dems who feel left out of progressive government.

      However, he doesn't help with the 50+ white woman demographic or the hispanic demographic.

      At this point, those are the three demographics that we don't know if Obama can reach on his own. They are also the three demographics most likely for McCain to pick off in the general election.

      •  He will help Obama tremendously in (5+ / 0-)

        Florida.  Obama has the majority of our "Independent" and moderate support and Webb will help boost the numbers.     Don't listen to copy-cat (coming to Florida)/whining Hillary in Florida today.  The only people whining about the non-counting primary "not-counting" are Hillary DLC/corporate-enabling shills that she sends to the media.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Obama filled the St.Pete Times Forum in downtown Tampa today and it was an amazing experience.   I was about 20 ft. away from our next President!   Parents kept their children out of school for the experience and the three 50 year (+) women that I was with, didn't know a soul that won't vote for Obama this fall and the ones that were leaning towards her earlier switched their allegiance to Obama with her "dirty" campaign tactics.   Go Obama!  

    •  He's been funny, but it's a dry, deadpan wit n/t (6+ / 0-)

      "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

      by MotherGinSling on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:38:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He's former military, stiffness is a way of life. (4+ / 0-)

      I have seen him interviewed in both modes.  Stiff, a little uptight, and comfortable, relaxed, smiling and seemingly having a good time.  It seems to have to do with the interviewer.

      It must be a real about face to come from the military and turn into a flesh-pressing politician.

      I think he is in a learning curve and doing well with it.

    •  oh, Webb has a sense of humor (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      NY John, Potus2020

      and at times his laugh can be infectious.  But he prefers to treat serious issues with the seriousness they deserve

      he is a thinking type, and perhaps somewhat of an introvert.  And he is a different kind of campaigner,  When he started in early 2005 he was not at all effective, but by the end of the campaign he was more than decent.  He is very smart, and learns from his mistakes.

      do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

      by teacherken on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:29:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  His strength may not be humor (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Potus2020

      but he does provide strength in a lot of other areas that would bolster Obama. Humor, imo, is the last concern for a VP pick. Obama will have to get rid of the 'distanced' view some people have of him all on his own, regardless of VP.

  •  I Don't Have a Favorite VP Candidate (8+ / 0-)

    But I have about half a dozen who get me excited, and Webb is one of them.

    •  Who are the others? n/t (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueintheface, TomP

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:12:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The List (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        BlogDog, Potus2020, blueintheface

        Biden
        Feingold
        Gore (a guy can dream, can't he?)
        Richardson
        Webb
        Zinni

        Then there's Edwards and Strickland, who don't get me particularly excited but do jump out as possibly very strategic picks.

        On reflection, I do have a favorite - Gore.  But that's a long shot.

        •  vips (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          NY John, Potus2020, blueintheface

          my top 3 are webb and richardson and gore

          biden: i don't think that he'd help much.  uses too much oxygen.
          feingold: if i like someone this much it must mean that the media and wingers would go ballistic, that they'd be smeared as way too liberal.
          gore: see feingold comment (he would really fire up the true warming deniers and also has leftover clinton baggage)
          richardson: lower negatives, but perhaps lower positive impact?  i'd be happy
          webb: i'm quite intrigued.  seems like the 'most likely  to win' ticket, but what do i know?
          zinni: i know nothing about zinni
          edwards: i like him but really think he'd hurt the ticket.  my source for this belief is: my gut.  maybe it's the youtube  "i feel pretty" video.
          strickland: i'm not sure i can recover from his nodding behind hillary as she did her 'shame on you' thing.

          i'd be happy to learn more about sebelius.
          i'd be ok with most anyone but you know who.

          •  Sleeper pick (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            NY John, Potus2020

            Barbara Boxer. Just cause I love her!

            "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

            by blueintheface on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:16:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I couldn't agree more with your comment (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Potus2020

            "I'd be ok with most anyone but you know who."

            Barack Obama and his campaign has shown excellent judgment throughout this campaign; I will trust his judgment for his running mate as well.

            That said, I do like Senator Webb alot.  I think he would bring a national security credibility to the ticket, and have consistent views with Senator Obama.   He also talks about economic fairness, and hopefully could reach out to the working class white voters in some regions of the country.      

  •  I saw the same interview (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, blueintheface, TomP

    and he impressed the hell out of me . . . with the exception of the word 'rechange'. Don't think that's a word.

    Perfect world: We have three VPs. Sebelius, Webb, and Richardson.

    •  Hahaha... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TomP

      yeah, when I was writing the diary, I noticed that "rechange" got a squiggly line under it, indicating that it was misspelled.

      Oh well... :-)

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:16:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I just am not a (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Potus2020

      Richardson fan.  Opposite of Webb on the invasion decision and on economic fairness.  Richardson also was a poor national campaigner.

      "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

      by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:18:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  True (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        CParis, Potus2020

        but he does well in debates, can talk circles around almost ANYONE on foreign policy, and can deliver New Mexico.
        He could also scare the CRAP out of John McCain in Texas and Arizona, forcing him to spend money in two of the safest McCain states this election.

        •  I agree... (0+ / 0-)

          that he will force McCain to spend more money in the southwest and that he is more experienced than McCain concerning foreign policy.

          But I disagree that he does well in debates, in fact, I think he's at his worst in debates. Further, I've never seen him talk circles around anyone, but I have indeed seen him talk himself in circles.

          I think he would put a lock on the Hispanic vote, which is probably enough for Obama to win. I'm remaining pretty open minded to most of the names I've been hearing.

          Clinton, Strickland and Bayh are non-starters for me.

          At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

          by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:19:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hmm (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Potus2020

            Don't know enough about Strickland to toss him out.

            Clinton . .  HELL no. They just wouldn't play well together, and neither Clinton is all that good at taking orders. I do think she'd be hell on the republicans as a senate majority leader, though.

  •  On Paper Webb Looks Great.... (6+ / 0-)

    ....but he was widely condemned for his prickly demeanor on the campaign trail two years ago in Virginia, so I'm not sure if he'd be the most enthusiastic spokesman for the Obama ticket.  Furthermore, I'd have to forfeit that hard-fought Virginia Senate victory.  In general (no pun intended), I like Jim Webb better than Wesley Clark, but Webb has not expressed a desire for the job and Clark for all intents and purposes has.  And Clark, being from Arkansas, cuts into the same demographic groups Obama needs to compliment the ticket.  I might lean towards Clark, but still think there are probably better options on the table.  How about Sam Nunn, for instance?  

    •  Clark was my favorite... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueintheface, TomP

      a while back, before we got in the heat of the primary race and he endorsed Hillary Clinton.

      He seemed to be a good campaigner in 2006, not so much for Hillary in 2008 though.

      As far as losing your Virginia Senator, couldn't Kaine appoint another Democrat?

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:18:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What about Kaine for VP? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Potus2020

        Experience?

        i still think Obama/Edwards would be a great ticket, but I think Edwards really does not want to run for VP. And Obama may have different ideas anyway.

        "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

        by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:20:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Edwards would be the best (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          BlogDog, TomP

          as far as reinforcing the theme of change. And in fact, I think their styles are complimentary in a Good Cop/Bad Cop sort of way.

          But I agree that Edwards seems less than interested in the VP spot and I believe recently made a Shermanesque statement about not accepting it. When asked about AG, however, he punted. :-)

          As far as Kaine, my only concern is, unlike Webb, his replacement won't be appointed by a Democrat. I've also heard the Lt. Gov is a Repub, but I'd have to double check on that.

          At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

          by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:24:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Kaine Would Appoint Another Dem, But.... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Potus2020

        ...the new Senator would have to defend his/her seat again in 2010, and it would be very hard to hang onto.

        •  Unless you appoint someone like (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ferallike, Potus2020

          Rick Boucher who has carried VA-09 (majority of Appalachian Virginia) for 13 terms now.  He could be a lock in SW VA (where Republicans trounce their opponents regularly with the exception of RB).  And as northern Virginia DC suburbs are largely Democratic, I'd say you'd be looking better than most at a successful re-election.

    •  People are discounting Wes, but I still love him. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mark27, Potus2020, TomFromNJ

      He may have supported Hillary, but he's shown class and dignity. In fact, many of her media surrogates have. Even Ed Rendell, who shot his mouth off about people not supporting Barack has reached out to offer praise.

      So while I love Jim Webb and he seems to be the man of the moment, I think we need to give Wes Clark a tryout too.

      If anything we might get to hear some more from Wes Clark Jr, and that would be worth it in and of itself.

      "I will fight for my country, but I will not lie for her. " -- Zora Neale Hurston

      by blueintheface on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:21:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My main concern with Webb is that we lose (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    BlogDog, Potus2020

    another Senate seat.  Also, with Clinton surrogates trying to fan the flames of false; outrage a VP choice with writings that could be considered sexist could hurt the ticket.  I do love his frankness and his populist stance.

  •  Interesting diary. (8+ / 0-)

    Mudcat Sounders, former rural policy advisor to John Edwards, agrees:

    The Center for Rural Strategies, a non-partisan think tank in Whitesburg, Kentucky, did a poll on October 26, 2006. When asked what was the top issue going into the midterm elections, 38 percent of the respondents said "lack of economic fairness". There’s the message.

    Although everybody brings up Jim Webb when talk of military and foreign policy emerges, Obama needs to spend some quality time with Webb talking about economic fairness. Webb, who has evolved from a Scots-Irish Appalachian icon into rural America’s champion for economic fairness, knows more about the dire implications of lack of economic fairness for rural America and can put a face on it better than anyone alive. Jim has written tens of thousands of words on the subject, including his new book, "A Time To Fight."

    While I’m talking about Webb, he would be my first choice for vice president. Talk about a guy who could lead Obama through the culture. I sometimes wonder if Jim isn’t the father, son, and holy ghost of rural culture. And if the party really wants the "Reagan Democrats" back in the tent, I can’t think of anybody better to stand at the entrance than Jim. He’s the bell cow for those guys.

    NY Times: A Country Voice on Rural Voters

    Like you, I had questiosn about Webb, but he makes some sense.

    There would be two people on the ticket who opposed the Iraq invasion from the start.  Although Webb has even less Senate experience than Obama, he was Secretary of the Navy under Reagan.

    And he understands economic fairness.  He and Obama speaking the same message could compliemnt each other well.  

    Maybe.

    "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

    by TomP on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:17:31 PM PDT

  •  not a Rendell fan (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, TomP, TomFromNJ, OrdinaryGal

    but I like the other choices. I like Webb's toughness, worry about his relatively recent conversion from being a Republican. Was underwhelmed by Sebelius' response to the SOTU.

    I voted Webb in the poll but could feel differently tomorrow...heck, could feel differently in an hour.

    •  Sebelius was a disaster at the SOTU... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      chicago minx, Shahryar

      but check out the video in my sig line. Her endorsement speech was great. For what it's worth, I didn't think Webb's SOTU response was all that great either, but I've been more impressed with some of his other tv appearances.

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:21:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Webb is not only a good candidate... (9+ / 0-)

    he's actually RIGHT ON when he talks about Appalachia and the working poor in this country.  He has some great ideas and a good understanding of the history of this country - like Obama, this guy is a deep thinker, a great writer, and something of an academic.  His thinking on affirmative action and how it needs to be amended to include ethnic majority (white) Americans who are trapped in a culture of poverty and poor education will go a long way to bringing back working class whites into the fold of the Democratic Party.  There are other issues where Webb gets it but he is right in trying to bring together African-Americans and working class white voters to form an unstoppable coalition.  Even if he's not selected as VP, Webb needs to be a major voice for the Democrats in the years to come.

  •  I'm liking Webb more too (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, Jampacked

    I really have no preference, though;  I trust Obama's instincts that he'll pick a strong VP.

    John McCain: Vowing to connect real leaders with real bowels

    by chicago minx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:22:08 PM PDT

    •  As long as there aren't any flame wars... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      CParis, chicago minx

      over the VP pick, I'll be satisfied. ;-)

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:27:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's essentially where I am right now (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Potus2020

      Obama, Sebelius and (most recently, and growing stronger) Webb are on the short list of who I like as both a political and idealogical compliment to an Obama presidency. However, for obvious reasons, I am going to defer to Obama for this decision, he has proved he knows what is at stake and I think by the time he has to make a choice he will know where his greatest weaknesses lie. I am also very trustworthy of him NOT being bullied by the shrieking Clinton fan club (thank God he doesn't need their money), but also to choose a running mate that might go against the horribly inept back rooms of the Democratic party.

  •  Me too (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    Webb is now my dream candidate for VP.

    Really, the only problem I have with him is his past comments about women... It will be hard enough for them to get over their dissapointment without having to vote for someone they perceive as sexist.

    (Does anyone know if he is pro-choice, by the way?)

    Anyway, I just ordered his book.

    Obamascrapbook Send it to all your friends and family! Obama/Biden '08!

    by jenontheshore on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:24:23 PM PDT

  •  I Remember When Programs for Appalachia Were (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    quite the rage, prior to the big Vietnam War expansion. So it's not as though the idea has never been tried.

    But we've taken permanently off the table so much of what underpinned the New Deal and Great Society, plus spent our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren so close to ruin, it's not clear to me what there is available to offer poor white Appalachia.

    Or the failing rust belt for that matter.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:26:03 PM PDT

    •  Well (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      housesella, jds1978

      I know for example that Obama has discussed changing affirmative action policies so that they take into account economic status. For instance, he said he didn't think his daughters should be the beneficiaries of affirmative action because they've lived a relatively privileged lifestyle.

      That could be a starting point for trying to pay better attention to folks whose struggles go largely unnoticed.

      UHC wouldn't hurt either.

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:30:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sounds like a poor excuse for blatant bigotry, or (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    did I miss something?  You can't rationalize away bigotry from a group where 20% admit, without shame, that race is a consideration for them in voting.  Sorry, I don't buy it, do you?

    We Changed The Course! Now we must hold their feet to the fire.

    by hcc in VA on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:26:04 PM PDT

    •  Well, I still think they're racist... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hcc in VA, choochmac

      but it's important to recognize why they feel the way they do.

      And I think there's an important distinction to be made between people who are racist because they think black people are inferior to white people and those who are frustrated at perceived injustice.

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:32:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm with you on this to a degree (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hcc in VA, Potus2020

      while I understand any person's gripe with Affirmative Action. I think most people are ignorant about it. Women benefit more from it from what I know. I don't see Affirmative Action as a rationalization for bigotry. You are either a bigot or you're not. If you are, then you need to change. I agree with Obama that Affirmative Action should be more based on class than anything else.

      To err is human. To forgive, divine.

      by Highwind on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:33:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think we need to (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      hcc in VA, CParis, Potus2020, Jampacked

      lay off the 'racist' 'bigotry' talk. It doesn't help anything. If you're right, there's nothing we can do about that segment of the country anyway, and if you're wrong, you just pissed off a lot of potential voters.  

      Some people just perceive black people and other minorities as getting free hand-outs from the government while they're left to fend for themselves and wallow in poverty.

      This isn't racism, it's frustration and inequality. For many of these communities, generational poverty is just as rampant as it is in the inner city. The difference is that this kind of poverty never gets any attention.

      You can see these pockets of 'racism' all over the country. The ONLY county in Iowa where Obama finished last was an isolated, rural community in the south where poverty is rampant. The problems there are the same as in the inner city; rampant drug use, underage pregnancy (sometimes three or four kids before they hit 18), failing schools, astronomical drop-out rates, college attendance at 5%, average life expectancy at about 54.

      They hear about the NAACP, UNCF, Affirmative Action, minority grants, college admission guidelines, and there's no organization around to help them. Why? Because they're white.

      So, yeah, they're bitter. Yeah, they resent immigrants and African Americans, and everybody else the government seems to deem more worthy than them. But that doesn't mean that they HATE other races.

      These people need some freakin' help.

      •  OK, well, I'll still choose to think that whites (0+ / 0-)

        from the West who did not vote based on race are BETTER than those others.  I don't care what excuses people make.  I guess that's why I don't live in West VA.  Or southern VA, for that matter.

        We Changed The Course! Now we must hold their feet to the fire.

        by hcc in VA on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:46:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't forget (0+ / 0-)

          the 'excuses' you're talking about are the same 'excuses' that people like Reverend Wright talk about. And, in fact, that Obama has talked about.

          I'm in a weird position on this, because I'm from one of these depressed areas in the South. (North Carolina/Virginia) and a LOT of my family members have this sort of resentful sentiment. These are otherwise good, kind people. The type that would stop to help ANYONE if they saw someone in need, and will invite a complete stranger (of any race) into their home if they are hungry.

          And yet . . . they don't want that black Muslim man as president. I've told them he's not a Muslim, and the response is something akin to 'close enough.'

          It's much more complicated and awkward than 'they're just racist hicks.' There seems to be something else at play here, and I think it's important to try to get at the root of it rather than to just write them off.

          •  Let me know when you figure it out because (0+ / 0-)

            to me, it depends on what they see and think when they encounter a black person....is it "oh, gosh, this guy got better benefits then me, I'm not going to help him now" or it is "I'll never vote for one of them thar n's...."    I'm sorry, I sort of think if it's the latter, then I WILL write them off forever.  

            We Changed The Course! Now we must hold their feet to the fire.

            by hcc in VA on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:01:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I always like the extremist Republicans (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    or far out fringe candidates.  Their analysis I always agree with, it is only their solutions that stick in my craw.  I thought the same way about Pat Robertson -- totally fine analysis, solutions I could not stomach.

    ...do the elites...actually believe that society can be destroyed by anyone except those who lead them? - John Ralston Saul -

    by Silverbird on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:26:28 PM PDT

  •  I still like several (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, Jampacked

    including Webb, Sebelius, Kaine, and Richardson. Clark would be okay too.  Obama will have to factor in many things including personal compatibility.  Sebelius and Webb both seem to be serious people that appeal to parts of HRC's demographic strengths and also to independents and moderates.  Every time I think I have a clear favorite the next minute I'm torn between the ones listed above.

  •  I do not like him (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    hcc in VA, Potus2020

    I not see as the right fit for Obama.  I am leaning towards Clark.  As much as I like Edwards, and I voted for him in 2004 in the primary and with Kerry in the GE, I do not see him now as bringing in the south.  Just like Gore, he did not win his homestate, and I love Gore.

    Cant make my mind up yet ..  Caroline Kennedy, if she would do it. No experience! Well, we have seen what 'experience' does with George Bush. LOL.  

    •  I don't see any possible connection (4+ / 0-)

      between Obama and Clark. Even if Clark weren't a Clintonista and an abysmal campaigner, he and Barack just don't seem to be on the same wavelength. No chemistry whatsoever.

      Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

      by bumblebums on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:34:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think the connection would be... (0+ / 0-)

        their military experience.

        I'm not sure that I agree that Clark is an abysmal campaigner. I thought he was pretty good during the 2006 midterms. You may be right about his chemistry with Obama.

        At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

        by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:43:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I like Webb best now (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, jds1978, chicago minx

    He was exceptionally good today on Morning Joe, in a discussion about Appalachia, Scots-Irish and Obama.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:32:42 PM PDT

  •  Webb supported telecom immunity. I was not (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, Populista

    following it closely enough to have a strong opinion on it, but I need a better explanation than I've seen so far.

    Many progressives were furious at Webb and felt he betrayed the cause.  Apparently, under pressures from Reid, Webb eventually came around.

    For many of us, protecting our civil and constitutional rights from the trashing of the Bush/Cheney encroachments has been a number one issue for this last decade.

    While, I'll defer to anyone who says they know the history better, from what I can tell from quick google searches, Democrats, like Jim Webb, who sold us out, have a lot of explaining to do before considering them for VP.

    Those who forget history (or never paid attention in the first place) are doomed to relive it.

    FISA Fight: Senate passes telecom immunity and flips the bird to America

    Earlier today, Sam asked a very important question: When it comes to convincing the public that it’s somehow justifiable to give a pass to corporations that illegally spied on Americans without a warrant, how stupid do you think we are?

    Well, the answer is that the so-called "Democratic" Congress doesn’t give a damn what we think, as they’ve voted down virtually all amendments to the FISA reauthorization bill that would have granted oversight and accountability–including blocking immunity for telecoms. As Glenn Greenwald eloquently notes, this day we’ve seen a so-called "bipartisan" Congress justify lawbreaking and illegality on a level that even the previous Republican majority couldn’t pull off.

    As Glenn notes:


    A total of 18 Democrats joined all Republicans in voting for immunity: Bayh, Inouye, Johnson, Landrieu, McCaskill, Ben Nelson, Bill Nelson, Stabenow, Feinstein, Kohl, Pryor, Rockefeller, Salazar, Carper, Mikulski, Conrad, Webb, and Lincoln. Obama voted against immunity, and Hillary Clinton was the only Senator not voting. Thus, the breakdown on the vote was similar to what it always is:

    Democrats — 31-18

    Republicans — 0-49

    And what about that people-powered netroots hero, Jim Webb?

    Mr. Webb is a great representative for Virginia, but Americans need an administration that will roll back the encroachment on our civil liberties rather than support them. If we are to have a progressive (dare I say liberal) President we need to insist on a progressive VP, Secretary of State, Attorney General, etc. We cannot compromise on our principles because someone would help us get elected in the south or help us among "National Security Voters." As much as I respect Jim Webb I hope he stays in the United States Senate for a long long time.

    Actually, given how Webb and other netroots-supported Dems like Claire McCaskill and (to a lesser extent) Jon Tester have folded on this issue and the Iraq war several times, I’d be happy to see them return to private life. As a friend pointed out to me,

    Webb was very hot to take Bush down for ignoring the law not long ago, but as he said, "some laws are more ignorable than others." With friends like these, I’d rather have enemies.

    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

    by HoundDog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:33:06 PM PDT

    •  Almost everyone of those senators is from a state (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      HoundDog, Potus2020, Jampacked

      that is dependent on defense spending.  The economies of Maryland and Virginia are heavily dependent on defense spending.

      Obama/Webb 2008 - Change with the muscle to make it happen!

      by ConcernedCitizenYouBet on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:37:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So aren't you "concerned" about this? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Potus2020

        Obama voted against telecom immunity.  I would want to know that any VP on his ticket shared this value and had enough courage to take the heat from the defense contractors in his/her state.

        I was very dissappointed to see Claire McCaskill is also on this list.  Until this moment, she was in my top three.

        Unless we get really desparate, this is a disqualifier for me. Unless I hear some better explanation, I haven't heard yet.

        I don't know how Webb came out on Kyl-Lieberman, but now I'm suspicious if he is a neocon in sheeps clothing.

        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:23:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, this is a definite concern... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      HoundDog

      and one of the problems with choosing another federal legislator to share the ticket.

      It's not a deal breaker, for me necessarily. Do you remember where Webb came down on the Iran vote?

      At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollup, you c*nt. - Sen. John McCain

      by Potus2020 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:45:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      HoundDog, Potus2020

      I'd like to hear Webb's defense of this position.

  •  Where have you been? I have been preaching this.. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    for months!  

    Obama/Webb 2008 - Change with the muscle to make it happen!

    by ConcernedCitizenYouBet on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:33:34 PM PDT

  •  HE IS REALLY TERRIFIC & A TRUE STRAIGHT TALKER (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020
  •  Man plus's for Senator Webb. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    Vietnam vet.
    Reagan Democrat
    Has served in a previous administration, albeit a Republican administration.
    Plain spoken but appears well educated.

    Downsides
    His old statement(s) about woman in the military.
    The "contriversy" about the content of one of his books.

    George "Jubilation T. Cornpone" Bush - "When we almost had 'em but the issue still was in doubt, Who suggested the retreat that turned it into a rout?"

    by pelarson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:43:51 PM PDT

    •  The good thing about those two downsides (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Potus2020

      is they are both focused on vetting, and he has already withstood a rigorous vetting process (probably a much greater one than some other potential VPs). So I would reason that they would both have a lesser impact than Obama, who was almost completely new to the national stage.

      •  I did forget his three marriages... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Potus2020

        his current marriage could be a plus, gads I hate rating them this way, in the Asian American community. His third wife is Vietnamese-American.

        Also on the plus side his son is a Marine and has done at least one tour in Iraq.

        YUKKKKK....

        George "Jubilation T. Cornpone" Bush - "When we almost had 'em but the issue still was in doubt, Who suggested the retreat that turned it into a rout?"

        by pelarson on Wed May 21, 2008 at 03:44:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Jim Webb is one Badass Mo-Fo (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, TomFromNJ

    My $$$ is on Webb

    When There is No More Room Left in Hell...CONSERVATIVES Will Walk the Earth!

    by jds1978 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 02:55:00 PM PDT

  •  I heard him on Fresh Air this week (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020, Jampacked

    some random thoughts:

    As usual, I found him to be an intriguing public figure and a very sharp guy.

    People talk about him being stiff in interviews and on the stump, but unlike many former military, he does not  give the impression that I (with no military service) am outside his interests and not part of his intended audience.

    As a West Virginian, I can definitely see his VP appeal to veterans and the whole Appalachian Scots Irish thing.

    But an Obama/Webb team seems kind of forced.  Is Webb really ready to campaign without reservations?

    This idea of having the two candidates with this ununsually paper trail of published work (especially Webb) will also be a challenge, but maybe THAT is another part of the game that has been changed in this topsy turvy cycle.

    I can tell you this: my wife wanted Hillary, and a Webb pick won't do much to put her at ease.

  •  i hate to say this but (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    I was for Sebelius (right after Iowa) until it began to seem that if he picked her, it would be "giving in" to people like Geraldine Ferraro - and it would seem as if Obama is trying to do a Clinton substitute, just to pander to White older women.
    it's just a plain case of cutting off my nose to spite my face - cause i think Sebelius would make a great v.p. now, i'm digging in my heels (like i have some great influence on who he chooses!)

  •  from Bill Clinton's cabinet/admin... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    i remember thinking during Bill's presidency that he wasn't developing much of a bench of future political stars.  you'ld think that after 8 yrs, there would be more of a presence than just bill Richardson (and Gore).  back then, Henry Cisneros seemed like a possibility.  but am i right in thinking that more could've been done with an eye toward the future, or am i forgetting others??.

  •  Future Sec State Richard Holbrooke? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Potus2020

    Laura D'Andrea Tyson at Treasury?

    Tyson

    For VP right now I like both Webb and Clark - but lean toward Webb.

    Regarding surrounding yourself with strong personalities who may not necessarily agree with the Pres - think Lincoln.....

  •  Senator Jim Webb would be a perfect counter... (0+ / 0-)

    ...to the McCain "war hero" meme. After graduating from Annapolis, Webb was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the U.S. Marine Corps. As a first lieutenant during the Vietnam War he served as a platoon commander with Delta Company, 1st Battalion 5th Marines. He earned a Navy Cross, the second highest decoration in the Navy and Marine Corps for heroism in Vietnam. Webb also earned the Silver Star, two Bronze Stars, and two Purple Hearts.

    Jim Webb's Navy Cross Citation:

    "The Navy Cross is presented to James H. Webb, Jr., First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as a Platoon Commander with Company D, First Battalion, Fifth Marines, First Marine Division (Reinforced), Fleet Marine Force, in connection with combat operations against the enemy in the Republic of Vietnam.

    On 10 July 1969, while participating in a company-sized search and destroy operation deep in hostile territory, First Lieutenant Webb's platoon discovered a well-camouflaged bunker complex which appeared to be unoccupied. Deploying his men into defensive positions, First Lieutenant Webb was advancing to the first bunker when three enemy soldiers armed with hand grenades jumped out.

    Reacting instantly, he grabbed the closest man and, brandishing his .45 caliber pistol at the others, apprehended all three of the soldiers.

    Accompanied by one of his men, he then approached the second bunker and called for the enemy to surrender. When the hostile soldiers failed to answer him and threw a grenade which detonated dangerously close to him, First Lieutenant Webb detonated a claymore mine in the bunker aperture, accounting for two enemy casualties and disclosing the entrance to a tunnel.

    Despite the smoke and debris from the explosion and the possibility of enemy soldiers hiding in the tunnel, he then conducted a thorough search which yielded several items of equipment and numerous documents containing valuable intelligence data. Continuing the assault, he approached a third bunker and was preparing to fire into it when the enemy threw another grenade.

    Observing the grenade land dangerously close to his companion, First Lieutenant Webb simultaneously fired his weapon at the enemy, pushed the Marine away from the grenade, and shielded him from the explosion with his own body.

    Although sustaining painful fragmentation wounds from the explosion, he managed to throw a grenade into the aperture and completely destroy the remaining bunker.

    By his courage, aggressive leadership, and selfless devotion to duty, First Lieutenant Webb upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service".

    emphases mine

    Yep, I'd have to say that Senator Jim Webb, who the Navy said "upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps...",  would be a perfect counter to the "war hero" McCain. And his up-close and personal combat experience may explain his lack of what some would call "charisma" or dead-serious demeanor. For some unexplainable reason, when I campaigned for him, and I voted for him in 2006 for Senate, I was able to overcome that "shortcoming" and forgive him for that. I think the American people would overwhelmingly support his candidacy for VP. I have to admit it, though, I will miss his strong voice for the common man in the Senate.

    "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:56:46 PM PDT

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