Daily Kos

One foot off the bus

Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:00:57 AM PDT

What follows is not meant for the "fans" on this web site: meaning those who have chosen a candidate and follow his or her campaign the way I do the Red Sox.  That is how I approach baseball, rooting for the team I first latched onto when I was six years old, growing up in Massachusetts.  It is not how I follow presidential elections, especially this one.

The Red Sox are my team, come what may.  I have followed them through a lot of thin and am enjoying this period of thick, but my interest in them has nothing to do with national policy. I hope that they win, but I have survived their losses.

In presidential elections, though, especially this one, I do not have the luxury of picking my "team" and sticking with it come what may.  If I got to decide who would be president, but was required to choose from those who hold or have recently held public office, my first choice would still have been Senator John F. Kerry, then Senator Edwards.  

But that is not how it works.  As I tried to explain to the many, presumably youngish folk, who seemed personally offended when I noted that the voters in my party had reached a different conclusion than had I, and had narrowed my choices among those who could actually get elected president to Senators Clinton and Obama, my vote is not simply a statement of my personal views.  It is intended to actually join with the votes of other people to achieve the only end that matters in this election: a president who is the nominee of the Democratic Party.

Faced with the choice before me when I voted in the New York primary I chose Senator Obama for reasons I have explained.  I remain pleased with my vote and my choice and events since then have only confirmed what I thought then: that what a presidential candidate says that he or she "will do" if elected is nonsensical in a republic, since they are not running for emperor but to ake charge of the executive branch of a government with many parts.  What I want from the president, then, is someone who will inspire us to give of ourselves for our country, for our fellow citizens and for the world we live in.  The most likely person running for that office who can achieve that goal remains Senator Obama.

To do that, though, he needs to get elected.  What we all should have learned from the 2000 robbery, and from the 2004 "swift boat" nightmare, is that asking broadcasters to act responsibly, and for Americans to cast their votes based on reason is as effective as spitting into the wind.  What all of us need to keep in mind, more importantly, is that this wonderful country of ours, an inspiration to millions around the world even from the moment of its establishment by political idealists, was nonetheless born with its own original sin in slavery and, though we have progressed remarkably from that time, especially in the last 45 to 50 years, its effects still dominate our politics.  To ignore this, to demand that the effects of a racism built into the fabric of this nation, be ground into dust, as it should have been and should be, will not achieve what we want, any more than hoping that gravity can be overcome sufficiently to allow us to all fly to work and alleviate our energy problems.

There is no need to go over this familiar ground, so long as its binding truths are recognized, even as we push and push to overcome this life-long disease of ours. The stunning comparison of the electoral maps from 2000 and 2004 with the ancient lineup of states and territories as aligned during the Civil Warconfirm this horrible truth and pretending it is not so does no service to anyone.

This is, of course, what is behind the Reverend Wright "issue," the claims that Senator Obama is a secret Muslim ("I have no reason to believe he is") or "Manchurian candidate," a friend of Louis Farrakhan, or whatever other piece of nonsense is put out there to legitimize a vote against Senator Obama to claim it is not about race.  When "Negroes" were lynched in our not too distant past, their attackers did not usually concede it was race that was motivating them: it was instead some artificially created concern, such as the safety of  "our women" that required murder.

But, and this is the big problem, while condemning this racism, I cannot ignore it.  I can conduct my life so as not to permit racists to govern me in most of what I do, because, for instance, the issue of whether I socialize with black people does not mandate the consent of many others (except the black person who has to agree to socialize with me).

Electing a president, however, is not one of those things.  To do that, I need allies: lots of them and I am forced to get those allies from a pool that dos not see these issues the way I do.

Hence, my cold feet.  Last January, I asked what I thought then was a provocative question hoping that this site could answer in a decisive way for me.   As idiotic as it is to quote oneself, the question as put then, needs to be repeated in roughly the form it was asked because it has still not been answered for me in a way to seals the deal.  

So the question is:

can a black man, even one whose mother was not, even one who grew up in, of all places, Hawaii, actually be elected president in 2008.

I hope that is so, and I hope so to the core of my being.  I have lived through the greatest change in the attitudes of this country toward race that has ever taken place, one that has completely changed the political face of this country in so many fundamental ways, most good, some not (the South is now solidly Republican instead of disgruntled, but reasonably dependable Democratic votes), and yet, and yet, even based on things which appear in these progressive pages, let alone in the comments of and the hearts of people throughout Iowa and the rest of the country, there is no denying that we have not reached the day when people are judged "by the content of their character" which remains a dream almost 40 years since it was first described to us.

A friend of mine, a wise woman not easily stampeded into her opinions, very quietly told me yesterday that she thought the nomination of Sen Obama was the only hope They—the Republican party--- had.  Her concern, which on calmer reflection, is one I now share, is that people say one thing, but do another and the mantra of his [un]ususal name and his race—as idiotic as this is, as repulsive as this is, will secretly buoy the Republicans and get them custody of the White House for another four years.  

Do not forget that the current president was elected once, and got close enough the other time to steal the office, based as much on such important things as "even if you don’t agree with him, you know where he stands," "he’s the guy I would want to drink a beer with [except that as an alcoholic, he can’t drink]," and "at least he doesn’t windsurf," or "speak French" [or English for that matter], "wear clothes selected for him by a consultant", etc.  People who decide who should be president based on this fluff, are not trustworthy.

I refuse to allow this to decide my vote; I just ask the question because I am looking for reassurance from someone who reads this and can calm my concerns.  Yes, yes, I know and do not reject the idea that anybody who would not vote for Sen Obama because of race, would not vote for any Democrat, but I am looking for something more, because I have a vision of a very, dirty, secret campaign, here in the country founded on freedom, except that in certain states human beings could be held as slaves, and with all our progress, still has not gotten over its truly horrific consequences.

I repeat that my interest in this election is not for my candidate to win but to elect a president from my party.  If that incidentally moves the country forward on race issue, great.  But that cannot be our goal.  I have not abandoned Sen Obama's candidacy just yet, but I will not be moved by what I think to be the right way to think, or what the people at DailyKos think is the right way to think, but what I think to be the likely way a majority of our citizens will view his candidacy.

Many of them are really stupid.  They thought, for instance, that GW Bush was an acceptable candidate for the office and they are easily swayed by what they see on cable television.  I wish that were not so, but it is.  It is hard to ignore the vast difference in results between the caucus votes where one as to vote in front of one’s neighbors and primary votes where a person need not wear a sheet to vote like a klansman.

It will be difficult for any Democrat to lose this year, but as noted above, this country has struggled with slavery and its aftermath for its entire existence.  We have made enormous progress, particularly since 1964, and since the mid 1990s have even seen what appears to be a light at the end of this long tunnel.  But we have not yet reached the promised land, and to insist that we have, and take a chance that we have in an election which threatens the very existence of the Democratic party and maybe even more, is getting scarier and scarier every day.  I just am not sure whether this is the thing to do.

If the sports fans on this site and elsewhere could stop bashing Senator Clinton on this idea that doing so helps to elect Senator Obama, a degree of rational thought would allow them to see how much better a president she would be than Senator McCain.  I am at the point where I have to consider whether asking the country to elect a black man is asking more from it than it can accomplish and focusing on the getting Senator Clinton elected.

Tags: race, Sen Obama, Sen Clinton, . Sen McCain, Civil War, presidential election (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 38 comments

  •  I respect your right to your decision (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mayan

    I agree with portions of your thinking, and disagree strongly with others.  We'll find out soon enough who is right.

    "Sunni, Shi'a. You say to-ma-to, I say to-mah-to." (McCain will be heard saying this before the general election ends.)

    by RoCali on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:09:11 AM PDT

  •  tip jar (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mango, briefer, RoCali

    If Keith can out one out, so can I

    "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

    by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:11:05 AM PDT

  •  I think that you are buying.. (5+ / 0-)

    heavily into the HRC spin but that's your prerogative.  

    I'm also a Red Sox fan and find that you are entirely belying your original metaphor.  What you are really saying is:

    I stick by my team, the Red Sox, through thick and thin but when they are down 3 - 0 against the Yankees in a best of seven series, and it's the last of the 9th and Rivera is pitching, well, I guess I have to say that the Yankees are better and will root for them.  I guess the country is just not ready for a Red Sox win.

    Obama, I will remind you is not even close to being at this juncture.  In fact, most people consider him the presumptive nominee due to the delegates and popular vote.  But hey, I would never get between someone and their conscience.  I do advice you to read my diary from yesterday entitle "The Sky is Falling."  Best of luck.

    "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

    by mayan on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:17:40 AM PDT

    •  I must not have been clear (0+ / 0-)

      I can stay with the Red Sox through thick and thin (I knew that Dick Stuart was not going to help the team, but did not abandon them then, so 0-3 to NY had me concerned, but nothing worse) because baseball is not the same as presidential elections.

      Sen Obama was and, for the moment, remains, my candidate, but if he can not get elected, my rooting for him is not enough.  It is mot the same thing as baseball.

      "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

      by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:27:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Does that mean you will root for the Yankees? (0+ / 0-)

        You presume that it is an either/or choice. Either Obama or Clinton.  My feeling is that if it ever gets to the point where Obama cannot be the nominee, it will have to be a third choice (eg Gore or Edwards).  I simply think that the party will not accept a Clinton victory at this point as being legitimate, and, if Obama were to be severely wounded, would turn to someone else (anyone else?) before they turn to her.

        John McCain - Practicing the old style of politics for the past 72 years!

        by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:36:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Basebal is different. (0+ / 0-)

          (well, I rooted for the Yankees to beat Baltimore in late 1975, because that win clinched the AL East for the Red Sox, but, no, I will not root for them.  But again, baseball presents vastly different issues than do presidential elections.)

          As for your substantive "proposal," well, maybe that is the thing for the party to do.  Good thought.

          "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

          by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:42:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Look at what I wrote: (0+ / 0-)

            if Obama were to be severely wounded,

            At this point, I know of no unbiased observer who would state that.  By severely wounded, I meant "the party headed to a 1972-like disaster" wounded.  
            At this point, he is not wounded, he is flawed.  Not a flawed as McCain or Hillary, but flawed.  Even he includes in his stump speech, the line "I'm not perfect, as my wife continually points out".

            Do not be so quick to bury him.  My point was simply that he is going to be the nominee, baring unforeseen circumnstances.  And, if such unforeseen cicumstances occur, she will NOT become the nominee. She has made herself radioactive.

            John McCain - Practicing the old style of politics for the past 72 years!

            by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:46:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I did not say anything re a "wounded" Sen Obama (0+ / 0-)

              which conjures up something more physical than you had in mind, anyway.

              I am talking about inherent racism which may make the election of a somewhat black man impossible.

              I do not agree that Sen Clinton is "radioactive."  That is a view that many Obama fans want to hold, but it is not so.

              "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

              by Barth on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:45:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Ouch. You are entitled to your (10+ / 0-)

    pragmatic concern and possible decision. But I wonder why I, as a voter who is not white, should feel any loyalty at all to a party who's members are not willing to fight for a fine candidate like Obama because of a supposed 'racist' reality. I guess I as a supporter and any potential non-white candidates are wasting our time then expecting anything other than expressed sorrow and yet abandonment from fellow Democrats.  Do you realise that this is the message you are sending? I wonder how the party will get along without a good number of us?

    "Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will." ~ Antonio Gramsci

    by From a distance on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:20:51 AM PDT

    •  That message was sent loud and clear (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MAORCA

      by the party's abandonment of Jeremiah Wright six weeks before his Q&A at the press club.  Back then he had condemned the war and greed and the party leadership (including the"first black president") cowered in silence as the MSM swiftboated him.

      Loyaly is a two way street.  To demand it and offer none in  return. . . ???

    •  I am not sending the message.... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      stephdray

      ...I am reporting it and noting it.  The John Adams series and the book on which it is based reminded us that this message pre-dates the Declaration of Independence.  

      We are on a long road, but we have not reached the end of our journey yet. We need to elect a president from our party to make sure we go in the right direction but, as one very wise president warned us almost 50 years ago:

         

      All this will not be finished in the first one hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first one thousand days; nor in the life of this Administration; nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin.

      "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

      by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:34:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Too late. And you're wrong anyway. (11+ / 0-)

    I am at the point where I have to consider whether asking the country to elect a black man is asking more from it than it can accomplish and focusing on the getting Senator Clinton elected.

    The time to consider that was before she fell behind to the point where she can't catch up.  The fact is, the only way to get a strong nominee at this point is to streamline the nomination of Obama.  

    You lack foresight here.  You aren't picturing what it would look like if Hillary had become the dominant front-runner.  All these Concerns about Obama would have been piled on her tenfold.  The fact is, she's in an easy position in a way.  Because GOP strategists know what you're ignoring.  She can't get the nomination any more.  So they are essentially aligned with Hillary right now in trying to tear Obama down.  And the media is testing their teeth on the new meat to see if he's killable.  

    The fact that all that is happening and his numbers aren't completely tanking is actually an indication of much deeper strength than Hillary portrays or you perceive.

    McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

    by Sun dog on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:26:33 AM PDT

    •  AMEN! A question for the diarist: (4+ / 0-)

      Why do you think people like Rush Limbaugh are openly shilling for Hillary?  Because they LIKE her?  Hell, Limbaugh doesn't even try to hide what he's doing, and although people like Buchanan and O'Reilly may try to hide it, they're none too subtle.

      If she were the front-runner, they'd be targeting her.  And if it somehow develops that it looks like she has an actual chance at the nomination, they'll turn on a dime and start using the stuff they've already got in the can on her.

      "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

      by leevank on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:32:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hear you, but, nothing, nothing, nothing (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      stephdray

      is as poisonous as race.  His numbers are  "tanking" or at minimum, taking a hit and with race a factor, there are many people who say they will voe for Sen Obama who will not.

      If you are right and he is the nominee, I will do whatever I am allowed to do to get him elected.  I voted for him in the NY primary.  But I am very concerned today.

      "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

      by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:38:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Sun dog, From a distance

        you will elect, possibly, a woman responsible for knowingly and intentionally injecting race into the equation of the primary for the SOLE purpose of siphoning voters?  Gotcha.  I can't do that.  I can't forgive her for that.  She's dead to me.  But if those are the type of tactics that you believe make her more electable, go for it.

        Of course, you have the luxury of that view since McCain and Clinton have been choreographing their message since Obama sprang into the lead.  They share advisors, including Rove.  With the MSM chiming in with the Wright agitprop 24/7, it's easy to see why you would feel this way.  But Clinton is going to be obliterated SHOULD she win.  Do you really think that Scaife, O'Reilly, Rove, Limbaugh...the same people who gave us "Hillary Murdered Vince Foster" have found love?  Do you really think that we won't see Tuzla shoved down our throats 24/7?

        We are getting the media narrative right now because they know (and the candidates know) that Clinton v. McCain is a win win.  Both of them are corporatists.  Even should Clinton get the S.Ct. picks they won't be that far to the left of who McCain would pick.  Nope.  It'll be business as usual should either of them win and ultimately the corporations that own the MSM know that too.  

        So, yeah.  Of course, if you are thinking that supporting a candidate who can win because she appeals to racial dog whistling and lowest common denominator wedge issues is the way to go...someone who will give us more of the same corporatocracy that folks like Lieberman and McCain give us...maybe it's a good time for you to get both feet off the bus.  

        Happily, I think Obama is going to get the nomination.  I think the excitement, money and demographics are very favorable to him creaming McCain.  But if you don't think the country is ready for that, why not go all the way and support McCain?  He will be needing your support.  Big time.

        "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

        by mayan on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:15:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is you who says that if your candidate (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          stephdray

          is not nominated you would vote Republican, not I.

          I have not watched much of MSNBC or CNN or anything other than the Red Sox this week, and, as I mentioned in a diary that so enraged you that you could not read it, I first expressed my concern in January.

          If you want to pretend that "excitement" wins an election, that is your choice.  Demographics do not favor our party any more, partly because young people who don't get their way in the nomination process will stay home and sulk on election day.

          If somehow Sen McCain gets within striking distance, which is unlikely as long as President Bush's lovely face remains out there, the money will flow in like tap water.  Republicans are rich and want to stay that way.

          "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

          by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:25:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  His numbers are not tanking (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        From a distance

        Seriously, are you just trolling with this to waste our time or are you seriously buying into a media echo chamber hit job on the probable Democratic nominee?  

        There's no point to your 'concerns.'  If you're stepping off the bus you're pretty much stepping over the cliff to McCain.  Because, again, you're ignoring the fact that all this is going on AFTER Obama has pretty much locked up the nomination.

        And, as an Iowan who stood in a caucus with 600 white people that went 2 to one for Obama over both Hillary and Edwards, I'm not buying the bullshit about race.  It is a problem in this country and the GOP has made it a keystone of their base.  Obama draws in far more excitement and swing voters than the closet racists in the Democratic Party could ever offset.

        Just help him win.  

        McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

        by Sun dog on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:26:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  speaking of echo chambers (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          stephdray

          I think many of you come to DailyKos and tell each other the same things which then convinces you of a reality that just is not so.  In that you have much in common with the White House.

          In Iowa a person who voted against Sen Obama would have to do so in front of you and his or her neighbors.  In other places, a person could wear an Obama button, tell everyone about how good they are, and then vote otherwise in the sanctity of their secret voting booth.

          In any event, I am talking less about closet racists in our party than in the country at large.  When President Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act in 1965, he predicted what it would do to national politics, and he was right.  He was also right to fight for its passage and to sign it into law, because that law and the Civil Rights Act are so important in making this country what it ought to be , but you either did not watch as Nixon crafted his "southern strategy" or you think this is just ancient history.

          I have said that with Hoover redux in the White House any Democrat should win and I still believe that, but I am concerned.  If you are not, it is because you are a fool.

          If it makes you feel good to call what I am telling you  is bullshit, then bully for you, but that does not make it so.

          "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

          by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:15:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Clinton talking points (0+ / 0-)

            In Iowa a person who voted against Sen Obama would have to do so in front of you and his or her neighbors.  

            People were very free to support whomever they chose.  It's fucking obnoxious of you to suggest that any of those people standing next to me on caucus night were doing it out of some worry of being called racist.

            Totally obnoxious.  This whole thread is turning into bullshit troll territory.  I'm heading for the phones.

            McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

            by Sun dog on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:54:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Barth, are you assured that all those racists (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Barth, Sun dog

            who wouldn't vote for Obama because they are racists, would be likely to vote for a woman for President? Especially a "liberal" woman who is married to (ahem) "the first black President of the United States," Bill Clinton?

            I mean, sure there's some. But how many?

            I figure the Dems have pretty much lost the bigot vote at this point, whether it's racist voters who wouldn't vote for any black man for President, or sexist voters who wouldn't vote for any woman for President.

            as far as dKos being an echo chamber, do you believe that Oregon voters are all in the dKos bubble too? or perhaps they don't count, either? Because? I mean, they sure are white up in Oregon, and they seem to be going for Obama in a pretty big way, despite the 24/7 "Wright, Wright. Wright" propaganda on the boobtube?

            80 million people in the U.S. didn't vote for President in 2004. George Bush's popular vote victory over Kerry was about 3 million votes. Do you think most of the non-voters are racists, too, who wouldn't vote for a black man, or do you start from the premise (that many business as usual Dem strategists and advisors for the last couple of decades have started from) that it's a waste of time and money to appeal to non-voters? that it's already and forever impossible for any Democrat to inspire non-voters to vote? That the money is better spent on last-minute TV ads and glossy mailers to appeal to the all-important low-information swing voters?

            Do you really believe that the hundreds of thousands of new voters that the Obama campaign has already signed up (and this doesn't count all new voters who might be supporting Obama, just the ones that have been signed up through the campaign) is the end of the line, that Obama has already attracted all the new voters that are out there who are attractable? (200,000+ new Democrats in PA, 165,000+ new Democrats in NC, and 150,000+ new Democrats in IN -- again, signed up via voter registration drives organized and conducted by Obama supporters in those states)

            •  Thank you, Jennifer Poole (0+ / 0-)

              Yes.  That is the best answer to my concern and it is one which has great resonance with me:  we have already lost the bigot vote, and I am certain you are right about that, but there are people who will vote for a white woman and not a black man.  Maybe not so many that matter.  I don't know.  That is where my concern lies.

              I believe the general election will be won in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Florida.  Without over generalizing, I suspect that Senator Obama has a better chance of taking Virginia than does Senator Clinton.  

              The other three states?  Away from the two coasts, Florida is not a state which has accepted reconstruction yet, as far as I can tell, and the "coast vote" meaning transplanted northerners skew against a black man, I suspect, and include a fair number of people who believe that President Clinton belongs on Mount Rushmore.

              The other two states are issues.  I did not mean to insult Sun Dog's neighbors; I don't know them.  But I went to college in the 1970s in an upstate New York town that was emotionally closer to the midwest of Ohio and Pennsylvania than to New York City and, unless things have radically changed in the 30 years since I left, this is not going to be Obama country.

              As far as "new voters" go, I was disappointed last time when all those Deaniacs seemed to stay home rather than vote for Sen Kerry.  If they get a chance to vote for the guy they like, things could be different.  I agree.

              Look.  I haven't jumped off yet and Jennifer Poole is approaching this issue in a useful way, so let's see.  The party "leadership" has, of course, completly failed to keep this from spiraling downward and I suspect the Russert-Obama/Stephanopoulis-Clinton morning tmrw will not be helpful, but we have a long way to go.

              "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

              by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:19:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  back in the 1970s I wasn't allowed to wear pants (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Barth, Sun dog

                to high school, Barth, skirts only. well, the first couple of years at least.

                Things have changed, yes. radically? as far as racism? well, think about how many votes a Sen. Obama running for President back in the 1970s (well, first of all he wouldn't've been a Senator back then), would've won nationwide. Think about whether it would've been possible for an African-American woman to be "the most powerful celebrity in the country," the way they say Oprah Winfrey is.

                well, we'll see. I think the most important thing we need to do is to prove that Democrats don't have to cower in fear against the once right-wing, now mainstream, media monopoly propaganda machine. Until we can do that, we don't have much of a chance for real change. And Obama seems to be better at doing that than any candidate I've seen.

                I don't think it's actually true that Dean supporters in the primary didn't come out and vote for Kerry in the fall. I don't know any. Actually, many (most?) of the 2000 Nader voters I know held their nose to vote for Kerry in 2004, let alone the Dean primary voters. if you've got evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. Yes, maybe we lost many potential young voters, who maybe would've voted Dem in the fall, if Dean had been able to implement his "50-state strategy" as the Dem nominee in 2004, but that's all guesswork.

                anyway, it's been good "talking" to you Barth, thanks very much for your kind words -- and one last thing: check the new Gallup poll today, which shows an Obama rebound in GE polling, despite the 24/7 Wright Wright Wright barrage, and the "double-digit" (ahem) Clinton win in PA which "proved" (ahem again) Obama couldn't win white votes

                •  just quickly... (0+ / 0-)

                  1.  Pants or skirts was easier to overcome than the race issues.  I have been to that area since leaving college.  Not so much progress, I am sorry to say.  The war and the economy have hit them hard though and while  they stuck with Nixon when similar problems beset them in the 70s, the war as a metaphor for the issues between the two generations does not work for Republicans as it used to, so maybe there is some hope there.  (I think Senator Clinton has done well in that part of New York in 2000 and 2006....)
                  1.  I have no real faith in these tracking polls, since the sample size is both small and not properly weighted, but what I read has Sen Obama doing all right against Senator Clinton post-Wright, but not so well against Sen McCain and, again, it is that race that concerns me.  Honestly, I prefer Sen Obama as our nominee on inspirational grounds, etc, as my diary discusses, but Sen Clinton would also be a more than acceptable nominee despite her truly revolting campaign.
                  1.  It is not "cowering."  It is accepting and dealing with my fellow Americans, a proudly stupid, and spectacularly uneducated lot with a forty second attention span at best.
                  1.  (and this is a diary-in-waiting, too):  I have been reading the NY Times coverage of the 1932 election and find the same "we're just trying to be fair" coverage ignoring obvious signs of a Democratic tidal wave and treating President Hoover's ravings as if they were reasonable points in response to Governor Roosevelt's diagnosis of the root of the problem and prescription for both short term and long term solutions.  They even reported obviously idiotic polls suggesting in late October that the race was tightening.  Despite the fact that "our" candidate could not walk, the race was not close, of course, and politics in this country were transformed in a way to make everything that happened before then as if it took place on Pluto.

                  The point as to this election is that my worries could well be swamped by another, slightly smaller tidal wave.  Thanks largely to President Roosevelt, the effects of what are happening now are not as severe as in 1932, but otherwise we are roughly in the same place.  Disaster abounds and the White House says not to worry:  if we make the rich richer it will all work out.

                  "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

                  by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:01:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  and blah blah blah numbers "tanking" (0+ / 0-)

          "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

          by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:32:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well said, SunDog (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sun dog

      "We're all working for the Pharaoh" - Richard Thompson

      by mayan on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:06:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I fear you're right (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Barth

      I adore Barack Obama.  I voted for him in the primary, but it wasn't a simple choice for me, because I wanted to think about the big picture.  The aggregate harm that Jon McCain would do is so much larger than the issue of which Democrat to elect, I wanted to choose the person who would win.

      I picked Barack Obama because I felt that he had the potential to make this a map shifting election.  His ceiling was much higher.  But someone told me that his floor was also much lower.  Hillary has a very narrow path to victory, but she can't free-fall.  She's been defined too completely in the American mind.

      What I've been watching lately is Obama freefall.  I know people in this community don't want to acknowledge it, but it's happening. Nationally, he may still be doing well, but we elect presidents in an electoral college and he's losing his appeal in strategic places.

      I fear it's too late for us to do anything about it.  It's too late for Hillary to win.  Which means our only prayer is for the party to unite yesterday, and circle the wagons around Obama before he's any further damaged.

      Stephanie Dray
      of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

      by stephdray on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:07:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hillary hasn't been defined so accurately (0+ / 0-)

        I've heard Fineman and a bunch of pundits repeat that conventional 'wisdom' that Hillary's floor can't go down very much.  It's simply not true.  There has been a lot of movement in this race if you look at it from the time the candidates were all still in Iowa and it was up for grabs.  Since then, across the board, the one who has tanked has been Hillary Clinton.  She bleeds support in just about every battleground.  The media is helping her as much as they can and they've obscured her failure.  The main thing they do is only focus on those periods of time when she rebounds to some degree.  So that when she blows a 20% lead in New Hampshire to win by a couple of points, it is portrayed as a 'comeback.'  This has been the case throughout.  She never won anything besides Arkansas as dominantly as Obama won ten consecutive states.  The AVERAGE difference in that span was 33%.  

        He has beaten her handily in spite of a serious advantage in message control granted to her through media.  She wasn't able to beat him with that but she has been allowed to continue the campaign with that.

        But that's all it is.  Obama is running against the world right now.  GOP voters and media hacks are hitting Obama as hard as they can right now because he sure as shit is set to blow McCain away.  Hillary benefits from that.  But she's not going to catch up. She's not even going to get very close.  

        The 'tanking' you're seeing of Obama is a media creation for the most part.  Hillary's campaign is essentially a big professional concern trolling operation at this point.

        You sound like you're being effected by it.  

        Don't let them get to you. If we had gone with Hillary instead, this thing would already be starting to look really bad nationally.  Because the media hammers on Obama but people like him.  People relate to him the more they get to know him.  Hillary?  Not so much.

        Oh yeah and back to Hillary's floor that can't go very low.  I had a formed up opinion of Hillary from two decades of rooting for her and voting for her husband.  But now, I think she's absolutely disgusting.  I'm nowhere near alone.  She hasn't gained many new fans in being a candidate.  But she has lost a lot of long time former admirers.  

        McCain is not getting my state. Is he getting yours?

        by Sun dog on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:34:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is where you need to talk to .... (0+ / 0-)

          ...people who do not see the world as you do. Your view that

          the media hammers on Obama but people like him.  People relate to him the more they get to know him.

          reflects your world and the people you talk to, more than a demonstrable fact.  I like Sen Obama, and find him inspirational.  Tom Friedman's explanation as to why that is important is close to my own view expressed when I decided to vote for him.

          But it is NOT an universally held view of even dominant.  A fair number of people hear the middle name, and note his association with a guy who says crazy things, but likes Farrakhan and just turn away.  I suspect there is a bit of racism in how they view these things, as Frank Rich discussed today but that is my point.  It is not fair and not right, but it may well be so.

          And if it is, as horrible and disgusting as it may seem, our priority has to be to elect a Democrat.  If that is to be Vice President Gore, and not Senator Clinton, okay.

          Again, I am just thinking about all of this.  I am not yet advocating anything and Jennifer Poole has made some very good points which bear consideration, as well as Senator Clinton's use of This Week to just rehash talking points rather than say anything worth saying.

          "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

          by Barth on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:57:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  you should've supported Edwards then, (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    MAORCA, From a distance, Just Bob

    because if you're worried about Obama's "electability" because of his color you should be even more worried about Clinton's electability.

    Clinton started out this race with very high negatives among independents and Republicans (and this is just a guess, but I'd say, even higher negatives among non-voters).

    McCain has pretty darn high positives among independents and Democrats. Under normal circumstances, considering the deep unhappiness with Bush, Clinton could've won in November despite her inherent -- and set in stone over many years -- weakness against a popular, (and like it or not) well-respected politician with a reputation for integrity like McCain.

    But now? Adding the factor of extremely high negative feelings among most young voters, most infrequent voters, almost all African-American voters, and a majority of progressive voters, let alone a lot of Dem elected officials pissed off about being described as "standing with the oil companies against the people" and running afoul of the Clintons' loyalty test -- and what do you get? A loss in November, that's what you get. Especially given the way the Clinton campaign has suggested, already, that her good friend, who has passed the Commander in Chief threshold, is very well qualified for the Presidency indeed. And most especially given that Clinton is even more vulnerable to charges that were the most effective charges against Kerry in 2004: that he was "for the Iraq war before he was against it."

    •  I did support Sen Edwards; not for that reason, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      stephdray

      though.  In any event, I was outvoted.

      "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

      by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:19:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  sorry, I read that you'd voted for Obama, and (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Barth

        didn't think that, of course, Edwards had already dropped out by the time of your primary.

        Any response to my other points?

        •  Yes, see above (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jennifer poole

          I am truly grateful for your posts.  As I mentioned, I have thought of much of this before, but as distateful as the cable tv jackasses are, they are making this worse, and it has had an impact.

          I also believe that Bush as Hoover (and, hence, McCain as Hoover running for reelection) may be as transformational as 1932 was making all the normal political considerations irrelevant.

          "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

          by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 11:23:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  change your pants snd undies. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    From a distance

    obama is in a lot better place today than pre iowa.

    people will vote their pocketbook now that the debt-fueled consumer orgy is dying out.

    During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - Orwell

    by MAORCA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:00:20 AM PDT

    •  I like Disneyworld, too, but you should... (0+ / 0-)

      ...leave FantasyLand every so often so you don't confuse that with the actual planet we live on.

      "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

      by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:03:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Buh-bye diary! nt (0+ / 0-)

    "Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will." ~ Antonio Gramsci

    by From a distance on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:30:03 AM PDT

    •  Yeh, but what it says remains true. (0+ / 0-)

      You young folk think that by ignoring something or by hollering at the messenger you can make it go away.

      Once again, my effort at getting reassurance on this site fails miserably since instead of rational explanations as to why I am wrong, the premise is attacked as "bullshit" and I am expected to accept that  as definitive.  Sorry.

      Try reading a book about your country before presenting  your fan based comments as political thought.

      "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

      by Barth on Sat May 03, 2008 at 10:18:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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