Daily Kos

McCain is lying about the Democrats' health care proposals, regrettably

Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM PDT

The NYT highlights yet more lies emanating from the mendacious 71 year old John McCain, this time about the health care reform proposals of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. McCain often states or implies that Obama and Clinton are advocating for a single-payer system or a nationalized health care system such as are common in Europe. Regrettably, they are doing no such thing.

The suggestion is incorrect. While both Senator Barack Obama of Illinois and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York are calling for universal health care and an expanded role for government, they stop well short of calling for a single-payer plan.

Mr. McCain has made the assertion several times in recent days, even as he and the Republicans have made repeated calls for accuracy on the campaign trail.

McCain has really been laying it on thick this week, "using language that evokes the specter of socialized medicine" as the Times puts it.

"There are those that want a massive government takeover of the health care system in America," Mr. McCain warned Thursday in Des Moines, as he made the case for his more market-based approach...

"But before you decide to sign on to that kind of a program, go to Canada, or go to European countries that have government-run health care systems," he continued. "My friends, they don’t work, they’re inefficient, and they end up in a two-tiered system where the wealthiest can afford to pay for their own health care and those with low income sometimes wait six or eight months for a routine kind of treatment. And that’s what I’m not going to let happen to the United States of America."

As a matter of fact, and unlike McCain, I have lived in Britain. I found the health care system there to be much better and more rational than the crazy health-care mess that Americans tolerate.

 title=In any case, that has to be some of the most laughable fear-mongering that any Republican candidate has engaged in. A two-tier health-care system in which the rich get better coverage than the poor? Horrors! How could such an unfair imbalance ever be allowed to arise in the USA, a nation with no more than about 50 million uninsured, give or take a few million poor children? Never mind having to wait "sometimes" for months for "routine" (i.e. non-emergency) medical procedures, the uninsured in America tend to get no health care whatever, unless that is the government picks up the tab (to the tune of $45 billion per year).

If I were to editorialize, I'd want to make two points here: (1) John McCain is not my friend; (2) McCain's demagoguery on the health care crisis reveals what a hollow, shrivelled soul he has.

Instead, I'll leave the editorializing to the Des Moines Register, which had a rather pointed reaction to the latest health care proposal being flogged by McCain himself. The Senator, who gets his own health coverage through Congress, wants to encourage businesses to stop providing employees with health coverage. You'd have thought that American businesses don't need any further encouragement to leave their employees without health care. But McCain's goal, as ridiculous as it seems, is to force individuals to negotiate their own health insurance deals. He proposes to do that by eliminating business tax breaks for medical coverage, and giving tax breaks to individuals who buy their own coverage.

It's fair to say that Senator McCain's swing through Iowa this week left the Des Moines paper's editors just a tad underwhelmed.

The proposal [by McCain] should scare the heck out of the millions of Americans who rely on employer-based coverage...Buying individual policies means having your health history reviewed. It means not having the bargaining power and protections that come with being part of a plan offered by an employer. And it's expensive...

The senator is correct that the employer-based system of health insurance in this country isn't working. Businesses are saddled with the high costs of coverage, putting them at a competitive disadvantage in the global marketplace. Insurance shouldn't be tied to jobs.

But the more reasonable solution is to offer everyone what Medicare already offers: health coverage financed by a combination of tax dollars and participant contributions, thus allowing the huge bargaining power of millions of Americans to leverage down costs.

That idea is nowhere near as radical as forcing millions of Americans to shop for their own coverage in a profit-driven, private-insurance sector.

Medicare for all. That doesn't seem like such a difficult concept to me, somehow or other. At times the rightward tilt of political debate in the US leaves me puzzled. If Americans think that universal health care is a "radical" idea, goodness gracious - how would they react to something truly radical like universal old-age pensions? Oh, wait, never mind...we already have those. They're called "Social Security".

  • ::

Tags: John McCain, health care, single payer, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 128 comments

  •  Don't worry, anything McCain says... (10+ / 0-)

    he's forced to take back the next day anyway.

    I want to be in Iraq 100 years. No I don't!

    The Gulf War was fought for oil. No it wasn't!

    Take the fight to them. Don't let them bring it to you. - Harry S Truman

    by jgoodfri on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:16:33 PM PDT

    •  McCain looks increasingly befuddled (4+ / 0-)

      doesn't he? Maybe he imagines the rest of us are as confused as he is about which end is up.

      •  smitheus: awful thought here: (3+ / 0-)

        1. Bush deliberately acts dumb, mangles his English to distract the nation from what he is busily doing (moving money and power UP and to the RIGHT)

        See: author Mark Crispin Miller, explaining the very Rovian trick:

        http://www.alternet.org/...

        1. McCain might be putting on a similar act. Playing slightly befuddled, but firm in his convictions....hard to nail down.....shifting around, confusing us in order for us to lose patience and move on to the next topic.....YES, Americans are confused and they don't have the time or energy to cut through the distracting flak scattered in front of them..........

        With the media following its own agenda to consolidate its power and profits, it's BAD.

        Action link:
        http://www.stopbigmedia.com

        Best Diary of the Year? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/23/03912/3990

        by LNK on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:32:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Actually... (4+ / 0-)

        Actually, McCain's strategy is quite clever.  By accusing the Dems of wanting 'socialized medicine' he is baiting them, hoping they will bend over backwards to deny that what they are proposing is a single payer system.  If Clinton and Obama deny that they are proposing single payer, it reinforces the Republican meme that single payer is a bad idea.

        I sure hope they'll resist the urge to take the bait.  Any chance either will have the balls to propose an American version of the NHS?

        •  Interesting (7+ / 0-)

          my reaction is a simpler one: if McCain thinks knocking out employer based healthcare and replacing it with privately negotiated policies between insurance as they currently exist is a winning strategy, we should do everything in our power to encourage him to run with it, everuthing we can think of to urge him to make it the centerpeice of his domestic agenda. He'll get slaughtered on this one issue alone.

          Read UTI, your free thought forum

          by DarkSyde on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:38:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's an incredibly dumb position to take (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Tennessee Dave

            I wonder how we could encourage McCain to stick with this one. Maybe a false-friend letter writing campaign to his HQ professing enthusiasm for the idea? Or an astroturf group advocating publicly for the government to force employers to stop insuring their employees?

            McCain has already gone so high-profile with this idea that it will be hard to efface it from the rest of the campaign, even if he does an about face immediately.

          •  Exactly (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dansmith17

            The last remaining segment of the population that is reasonably happy with their health-care coverage is those of us who have decent (albeit increasingly expensive) employer-provided insurance. Go ahead, McCain, and shake THAT hornet's nest!

        •  The Socialist boogeyman only scares Republicans (3+ / 0-)

          It doesn't scare me. Bring on single-payer, and the sooner the better. I don't think the under-40 crowd really cares much if it's branded as "Socialist". That's an old canard that is very quickly losing its edge. If McCain wants to run like it's 1984, he's free to do so. But people know; they know that all over the world folks get a better deal than we do. Our own capitalism backs this up -- what is it that puts us at a competitive disadvantage? Private health insurance. How do we become more competitive? We let government take care of that so businesses don't have to. Simple, and as I see it I think we'll be there within the next 20-30 years (if not sooner).

          •  ..Adding, Republicans have killed their brand (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            historys mysteries, Leap Year

            It's dead. We're witnessing a massive flame-out as the hyper-conservative brand takes its last gasps. That's the ultimate legacy of the Bush Administration; kill the elephant. Karl Rove may think he's smart, but all he's done is spend political capital like a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley in 1998. Now that it's gone there's no way to get back except by shifting to the left. Unlike Bush, we won't be fooled again.

      •  Sminth (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        smintheus, dansmith17

        agreed. I don't mean this to sound snarky, because if it's true it would be a tragedy for the McCain family. That sounds like something coming from a man who is losing his power to reason. Taking on dems over healthcare, the turf where we are roundly trusted by high double digit margins by the public over the GOP? Dissing government healthcare while he's on it, demolishing employer based insurance when most Americans are rate cost and benefits as their number one or two domestic concerns, potentially fucking with Medicare?

        Read UTI, your free thought forum

        by DarkSyde on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:45:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's just two horse's hairs shy of... (0+ / 0-)

          political insanity, as far as I can see. Any Democratic opponent with a half million dollars to spend could wrap this proposal so tightly around McCain that he'd never recover.

          John McCain wants to make employers stop offering health insurance, and force every one of us buy our own medical coverage individually. With ideas that bad, can McCain be trusted not to run this country into the ground?

    •  Regrettably? Predictably! (0+ / 0-)

      The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. --Goya

      by MadScientist on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:53:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I want the same healthcare McCain gets (16+ / 0-)

    or until he explains to me why he deserves such a superior system of care compared to me in a democratic nation.

  •  McCain lies as usual, no big deal (5+ / 0-)

    McCain has been lying since he learned to move his lips, and will do so until they stop moving. In that respect he is certainly a continuation of George Bush.

    But maybe it isn't fair to say he is lying now. His mind has deteriorated to the point where he can't remember what he truly thinks.

    McCain is unfit to be president. We just have to keep reminding folks with examples that just keep on coming. His statement of the past few days should help.

    Don't you think John McCain looks tired?

    by MakeChessNotWar on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:18:46 PM PDT

  •  mendacious (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AbsurdEyes, historys mysteries, kyril

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/...

    men·da·cious  
    Pronunciation:
       \men-ˈdā-shəs\
    Function:
       adjective
    Etymology:
       Latin mendac-, mendax — more at amend
    Date:
       1616

    : given to or characterized by deception or falsehood or divergence from absolute truth <mendacious tales of his adventures>
    synonyms see dishonest
    — men·da·cious·ly adverb
    — men·da·cious·ness noun

    Saying the Iraq "Surge" worked is like saying Thelma & Louise had a flying car.

    by JML9999 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:19:24 PM PDT

  •  The only time you should believe a Republican... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    ...is if s/he tells you s/he's lying.

  •  McCain's intent is to "privatize" healthcare (5+ / 0-)

    in the same way that the Repugs "privatized" pensions.  Employers want the health monkey off their backs.  

    •  For the sake of completeness (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      rktect, kyril

      I presume you mean Privatizing Medicare&Medicaid.

      Saying the Iraq "Surge" worked is like saying Thelma & Louise had a flying car.

      by JML9999 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:26:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Our approach to Healthcare is unhealthy (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        historys mysteries

        There is no way we can afford to do universal healthcare the way our political candidates are talking about it, as if it included every person in the US regularly checking into a hospital, going through extensive diagnostics, elective surgeries, and a lifetime of therapy.

        We can afford to make community healthcare universal, but what I mean by that is primary care.
        Included in that are things like optometry, dental care, non intrusive internal medicine, women's health, pediatrics, men's health, geriatrics, and checkups of vital signs, bloodtesting, weight, bloodpressure, and help with the basics.

        The Primary Care I receive through my Veteran's benefits includes more than most people should expect for universal coverage.

        Primary Care began over forty years ago with street clinics, care for migrant workers, indians on reservations,  the homeless, underserved rural populations and the urban poor. It emphasises the prevention of disease over its therapy.

        It includes classes on how to cook a nutritious meal, bloodtesting for diabetes and various other common diseases that can be controlled with individuals being educated as to how to take a little better care of themselves and their friends and family.

        It involves fewer interactions with expensive doctors, catscans and insurance companies and more counseling from LPN's, MA's, nurses, dieticians, social workers, and a few visits from specialists.

        In the past Primary Care has been covered by the restrictions of Medicare and Medicaid, poorly funded and anything but universal.

        If section 330 care was universal and removed from the dictates of government and insurance our health would be bettered regardless of income, and the costs of more extensive healthcare would come down.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:58:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why not universal hospital care as well? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          rktect

          It has to be paid for somehow, but why does that need to be via for-profit insurers who skim off a percentage of every health-care dollar?

          •  My experience includes both hospitals and CHC's (0+ / 0-)

            For what a hospital spends on a steam generator and several floors of stainless steel piping to make sure an autoclave (fancy name for a dishwasher) is absolutely certain to be sterile, a CHC can treat an entire community for about 90% of the most common problems we encounter.

            Its possible that sterile autoclave used in cancer research may make a cure for cancer possible someday, its equally possible the doctor who ordered it is just looking for his toys to one up the rest of the research staff.

            I used to authorize 100 M a year for renovations to allow beds to become admin wings, admin to become research space and chemically, biologically and radioactively contaminated research facilities to be renovated into bone marrow transplant, cardiac catheterization and delivery rooms.

            The turnaround lifecycle was about three years meaning that design and construction was constant.

            With increased funding for CHC's and Primary Care most of us could be made much healthier at a small fraction of the cost, even if not every facility had much more than a waiting area, nursing stations and some exam and procedure rooms.

            With Hospitals think Walter Reed. Come in the Door and they put you in a bed. There are dozens of departments.

            About 1/3 of the faility is dedicated to admin whose job is making sure the doctors and insurance companies get paid. Another 1/3 is dedicated to research and teaching whose purpose is to encourage the discovery of something that will make some doctor richer and more famous sometime in the future.

            In Internal Medicine every organ in your body from your esophagus to your rectum requires probes, prodes, catheters, injections, catscans, bloodtests, urine and stool tests, ultra sound, colonoscopies, biopsies, and every test leads to a new medication each of which has side effects that require more medications.

            In a CHC you walk in, get your vitals taken, get a bloodtest, get prescribed diet and exercise, get counseled, and 15 minutes later are on your way out the door. You may even be set up to take your vitals at home and or have them monitored remotely.

            Everybody gets seen for free or if you are above 200% of poverty you have a nominal copay. The care involves more nurses than doctors which means you are getting the most experienced and knowledgable staff rather than those with the lowest golf handicap.

            Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate

            by rktect on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:42:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  "The Specter of Socialized Medicine" (10+ / 0-)

    Health care is a big loser for conservatives this year. As I wrote about here (shameless plug), we're already starting to see political ads about "socialized medicine." I just don't think people are going to buy it.

    "Flanders, you su-diddley-uck." -Homer Simpson

    by NMDad on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:21:31 PM PDT

  •  Well... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dansmith17

    How is his distortion of the Dems health care proposals any different than the distortion of his "100 years" statement via the MoveOn ad?

    "I drank what?" -Socrates

    by BraveheartDC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:21:41 PM PDT

    •  We have him on Video (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kyril, jenontheshore

      Does he have video of BHO or HRC calling for

      ".....a massive government takeover of the health care system in America,"

      Saying the Iraq "Surge" worked is like saying Thelma & Louise had a flying car.

      by JML9999 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:25:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, but... (0+ / 0-)

        The complete video isn't shown in the MoveOn ad...even the New York Times called the ad misleading.  If the ad is accurate, then why the need to edit, and loop, McCain's comments?

        Not defending McCain...just saying that there is lots of misrepresentation, parsing and dis ingenuousness to go around.

        "I drank what?" -Socrates

        by BraveheartDC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:28:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe to fit into the alloted time? (0+ / 0-)

          Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Warren Buffett (1930-, American Investment Entrepreneur)

          by Amber6541 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:35:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Um, yeah (0+ / 0-)

            I'm sure that's what it was.  That's why they loop the 100 years comment...twice...without playing the "as long as there is no violence" part.

            The ad is admittedly effective; it's also, unfortunately, dishonest.

            "I drank what?" -Socrates

            by BraveheartDC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:39:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Has McCain ever explained (4+ / 0-)

              how long he's willing for US troops to remain in Iraq as long as they are subject to attacks?

              Because, quite frankly, the idea of keeping troops there while Iraqis are showering them in candies is little more than a fantasy at the moment. McCain could have said that he favors keeping US troops in Iraq for 100 years as long as they have magic ponies, for all the difference it makes.

              That's the issue: Iraqis don't want us in their country, and McCain is determined not to bring our troops home. So how is it unfair to quote him saying he's happy to leave them there for 100 years, without including his magic pony cop-out?

              •  Why is it unfair? (0+ / 0-)

                It would be as if Obama said "To help balance the budget, I'm going to raise taxes on everyone who makes over 250,000 a year"

                ....and then running an ad with Obama saying "To help balance the budget, I'm going to raise taxes on everyone"

                With your logic, I could say that there's no way Obama could balance the budget only raising taxes on the wealthy, so the rest of his statement was a "magic pony co-out", and its omission therefore makes the ad honest.

                But of course, it's OK if it's one to the other side, right?

                "I drank what?" -Socrates

                by BraveheartDC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:53:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  My biggest disappointment with Obama (5+ / 0-)

    Is his health care plan. I have been strongly in favor of single payer for many years now and for a man who wants to radically change the way we do things supossedly, I find his health care plan timid and way too much of the same old shit.
    That was my biggest reason for being an Edwards supporter.
    I am soooo tired of Democrats being terrified of the old "socialized medicine" cannard especially when poll after poll shows that most people think that's a fine system.
    Oh well, maybe before I die I'll see health care  in the US brought up to the standards set by the rest of the industrialised world decades ago.

  •  The only time McCain lies (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Brooke In Seattle, kyril

    is when his lips move.

    This has been the case at least since 2000, after he got his ass kicked by Dubya's goons.

  •  John McCain? Lying about Democrats? (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril, Amber6541

    Anyone surprised? Get used to it 'cause he's just getting geared up for the fall.

    The good news is, all we have to do this time around is tell the truth using McCain's own words.

    Loose lips sink ships. What do you have to say to that, McCain?

    "Blub. Blub. Blub ..."

    McCain: "I think that clearly my fortunes have a lot to do with what's happening in Iraq" ... Buh-bye!

    by RevJoe on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:24:08 PM PDT

  •  "My friends" (7+ / 0-)

    such systems DO work, they ARE efficient, and we already have a two-tiered system anyway, so what the hell.  For an excellent discussion of the Canadian health care system, google Mythbusting Canadian Health Care (Parts 1 and 2)  -  truly, it's time to stop the scare tactics in this country, stop pandering to big business, and start thinking, learning, and changing.

    McCain's idea of a tax rebate for purchasing health care won't be much help to the poor who don't earn enough to pay taxes, will it?

    I wish someone in this country had the courage to propose a true single-payer system.  That's what we need.

    And BTW, I am SICK of hearing McCain say "My friends."    Is he trying to sound like a patronizing old white guy?

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." W B Yeats

    by stonepier on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:25:08 PM PDT

  •  But... but... he's a Maverick, dammit! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    and "Maverick" means never having to tell the truth say you're sorry, doesn't it?

    George W. Bush... wiretapping the Amish since 2001...

    by ThatSinger on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:25:57 PM PDT

  •  It's Contemptable (4+ / 0-)

    That both American political parties are so fearful of corporate wealth and power, that single payer universal health coverage isn't on anyone's political agenda.

    Shame on the cowardly 'leaders' in our country that know in their hearts that quality health care for all Americans should be a birthright, not a luxury that's available only the to the wealthy, the government workers and some union members.

    We are the ones we've been waiting for

    by jpgod on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:25:59 PM PDT

  •  How dare you, John McCain! (8+ / 0-)

    We already have a two-tier system, Johnny. Something you in your insulated, privileged, multimillionaire world wouldn't know anything about. You, who had your healthcare covered by the American taxpayers since you got into office. You who never had to live in fear of  going bankrupt because of your bouts with cancer. You, who never had to worry about being labeled uninsurable because of your pre-existing conditions. You who never had to pray that your children don't get sick because you can't afford the medicine they need.

    Have you ever visited Canada or Europe? The citizens there are overwhelmingly content with their healthcare systems and view  America as being inhumane and backward because of our obsession with profits over people when it comes to healthcare.

    You have no right to speak one word about the suffering the American people experience because of our disgraceful, greedy system.

    SYFPH!!!!

    •  BTW (6+ / 0-)

      He's lying about this, too.

      Have you ever visited Canada or Europe? The citizens there are overwhelmingly content with their healthcare systems and view America as being inhumane and backward because of our obsession with profits over people when it comes to healthcare.

      Just heard him on CNN this afternoon lying about Canadian health care, what a boondoggle it is, and how unhappy people are with it. Most of my Canadians say it's not a perfect system, but it's far superior than what they're hearing from their US friends. No doubt.

      McCain: "I think that clearly my fortunes have a lot to do with what's happening in Iraq" ... Buh-bye!

      by RevJoe on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:30:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  even before (7+ / 0-)

      Since he served in the military his health care has been provided by the govt. since before he was in office. Same story with Dole, these guys are all oppossed to "socialised medicine" except when it comes to their own helath care.

      •  McCain's father was in the service too (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Anthony Segredo, phenry, JeffW, dansmith17, Eyz

        and JM was born on a base in Panama, so he was likely delivered by a Navy doctor.

        He was covered on his dad's policy until he was in the Naval Academy himself, and then he was covered under his own name.

        With apologies for the double negative, McCain has never NOT been covered by government insurance. Even when he was a POW, he was covered -- he just couldn't access it, so he can't say he wasn't.

  •  Suggestion: McCain meets with a couple dozen real (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril, R Rhino from CT4, Amber6541

    Canadians, Brits etc., and have him talk about health care?

    Doesn't the GOP usually trot out victims from communist countries and parade them before congress and the crews to bravely tell us of their plight?  You wouldn't even have to secret them out of their countries, there are some already here.

    •  I'll volunteer (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      smintheus, Brooke In Seattle, Hjiorst

      Canadian healthcare saved my life when I was seven. My mother was a mostly-unemployed college student on financial aid, but when I came down with appendicitis, I was flown to a university hospital, ultrasounded, and on the operating table within an hour of first showing up at our local clinic. Cost to us: Zero dollars.

      They also took great care of me as a baby/toddler when I kept coming down with bronchitis/pneumonia/tonsillitis. Again, cost to my mom: zero dollars.

      Meanwhile, the only medical care I've had in this country since I grew up and was removed from my dad's plan has been the "socialized medicine" provided to the U.S. military.

      Now, I'll be the first to say that military healthcare sucks giant monkey balls. The answer to a 104 degree fever with extreme fatigue, disorientation, and productive cough is not IV fluids and a diagnosis of dehydration. However, after I got off the boat I did manage to go to an ER and get real treatment for my pneumonia, for which I didn't have to pay. (This is why I argue for socialized cost and privatized care - socializing the care itself takes away any incentive to provide competent care, especially when, as in the military, recipients and their families are absolutely prohibited from using any form of legal recourse at any time even after leaving the military).

      Anyway, if I got sick in the military, I usually got some form of treatment, crappy though it might have been (the usual prescription for virtually everything from sprained ankles to pneumonia to giant bleeding gashes was "take 800 mg of Motrin up to three times daily as needed and hydrate.") Now, I don't even get that - I have to buy my own Motrin.

      During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

      by kyril on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:48:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Be careful (0+ / 0-)

      You can easily find a couple of Dozen Brits, or presumably Canadians, French or Germans about either how much our system sucks or how great it is.

      You will easily find Brits able to criticise, the NHS but you will find a much bigger number who will praise it in comparison to any US options.

      One of the big issues at present is the introduction of some new very expensive Drugs, in the NHS there is a committee to draw up the options on which conditions is a drug reasonable to fund for a given cost. If the result suggests it is not worth funding big Pharma will run a campaign saying all these poor people WILL DIE, unless they get given this drug for free.

  •  Heh - not my friend either (8+ / 0-)

    I was thinking about something along the lines of mentioning how much I cringe when john mcsame says "my friends." I'm not your friend, John McCain. You screw me, my family and everyone I know every chance you get, all while you sup at the teet of big business and "socialized medicine." Screw you. Don't call me your "friend."

    Friends don't do that to friends.

  •  Fifty-three percent of low-income Americans (5+ / 0-)

    are uninsured now or have been uninsured in the past year. More than half. A majority. A growing majority, from the trendline. That statistic alone should completely eliminate any argument from the right about how Medicaid/SCHIP take care of poor people. Fifty-three percent of low income Americans have had times in the past year that we had ZERO access to healthcare. And more than a third of us are uninsured right now.

    During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

    by kyril on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:32:28 PM PDT

  •  While I... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Alden, kyril

    ...support a single-payer system as well, at this point I would settle for a $10,000-deductible national insurance plan solely for catastrophic care.

    I think that something like that would have a good chance of passing. Everyone pays a small tax, health care premiums go down, and while it still sucks to not have coverage, at least you're covered in case of massive disaster (cancer, etc).

  •  Even though what McCain says is not true, a lot (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    of people might not consider those insurance plans a negative thing.  In other words, he may be hindering his campaign, not helping, with this kind of statement.

    McCain often states or implies that Obama and Clinton are advocating for a single-payer system or a nationalized health care system such as are common in Europe.

    Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Warren Buffett (1930-, American Investment Entrepreneur)

    by Amber6541 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:33:58 PM PDT

  •  regrettably they aren't suggesting single-payer.. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril, dansmith17

    Hopefully the reason why is that they hope to get elected along with enough on a majority of "progesssive" Democrats to get HR-676 or some other single-payer bill through both houses of congress.

    Sadly, neither of their plans address the real every increasing cost of health insurance and drugs. SO, if they actually do plan on pushing their own plans then the can will get kicked down the road till someone gets it that single-payer is the best way to provide universal health-care and to keep a lid on costs.

    Meanwhile, I plan on pushing for SB-840 here in sunny California and I hope others will push for similar bills in their own states. If the federal government gets something passed before a state does, well then hallelujah and praise the Lords of Kobol. But, I'm through waiting for Godot Happy, so you go Yahweh and I'll go mine!

  •  These people hang their hats on (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    smintheus, JeffW, kyril, dansmith17

    worn-out dogma which wasn't even true when Adam Smith came up with it, and certainly cannot be true now for healthcare.

    Suppose that we truly enable the magic of the market by doing away with all the supply controls embodied in the many professional associations which control medical schools and other training facilities, as well as the licensure and certification bodies with all their associated legal sanctions?  The last time we did that, John R. Brinkley was curing 'what ails you' by implanting goat testicles in people who were feeling poorly.

    Then, maybe we should prohibit large-scale providers' restrictive pricing in the same way we sometimes claim to do with other monopolistic entities.  We should also prevent medical suppliers from contracting with insurers and other entities, guaranteeing that anyone approaching a medical provider as an individual gets charged at the Bill Gates rate.

  •  out-of-touchiness. (6+ / 0-)

    "they end up in a two-tiered system where the wealthiest can afford to pay for their own health care and those with low income sometimes wait six or eight months for a routine kind of treatment. And that’s what I’m not going to let happen to the United States of America."

    My dear elitist friend McCain:

    ALL YOUR LIFE you have relied on the government to provide top-notch insurance to you.  If you hate it so much, you should have long opted for private insurance yourself.  I don't care for your double-talk.  Put your money where your mouth is.

    And as a primary care doc at a county hospital, where most folks don't have insurance or have medicaid, it's a DAILY REALITY for people with painful gallstones have to wait 9-12 months for a cholecystectomy (surgery to remove the gallbladder), or where people with severe debilitating neurological disorders have to wait 9-12 months for a first appointment to see a neurologist.  

    On the other hand, a few of us who travelled to Seattle and Vancouver, interviewed folks walking around in both cities.  OVER AND OVER again, I heard about stories like the canadian who was travelling in america and who tore his ACL (a ligament in the knee) and was told by numerous people that he'd get more timely and cost-free care back in Canada;  the woman who noted a lump in her breast, called her primary care doc's office -- saw him within 2 days, and saw a breast specialist within a week, and had chemo going within two weeks after a mammogram, all for free;  or the man who had a severe headache, got a cab to the ER, got a head CT, saw a neurologist, stayed in the hospital two days, and left with just a $40 cab bill.

    There are many things wrong with the health care systems in other countries, i'm not absolving them of all criticism.  But it shows how absolutely out of touch McCain and his cronies are for spewing garbage like this.  It really does.  And this kind of talk actually incenses more and more Americans on a daily basis, as they increasingly face the harsh realities of the american health care system and its  tiered healthcare systems.

    Cure This! -- let's talk shop about health!
    Los Anjalis

    by anju on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:39:46 PM PDT

    •  UK (0+ / 0-)

      Blair's extra billions into the NHS has improved a creaking but free service to something approaching the best of both worlds.

      I work in the NHS and we are putting a lot of effort into being more patient responsive, more customer friendly etc.
      At a recent conference we has a a US speaker about a one stop shop he was boasting the patient came in had blood test, went for a cup of free coffee while waiting for the result and then gets the Chemo or Blood Transfusion on site.

      To those of us from the better sites, our initial reaction was but we have been doing that for years it is just we charge for the coffee.

      Then we realised the real difference we might charge for the coffee, but we did not charge for the Blood tests, the doctors consultation, the Chemo and the Blood Transfusion!

      In terms of waiting:
      A patient attending an ER MUST be admitted to a bed or treated and sent home within 4 hours.

      A patient suspected of Cancer MUST be seen by a specialist and treatment started with 2 weeks.

      A patient needing elective surgery MUST be seen and have operation within 18 weeks.

      All the MUSTS are a maximum so most people are seen quicker than that.

  •  FrontLine examined 5 other systems (8+ / 0-)

    There was a great Frontline program last week in which the reporter (NYTimes I think) visited five countries with national health care systems - Germany, Switzerland, UK, Taiwan, and Japan.

    Perhaps the most interesting approach was that of Taiwan, who carefully reviewed a dozen or so of the best health care systems in the world and then designed their own national system. Why couldn't we do this?

    Three commonalities:

    1. Everyone was covered.
    1. Their administrative costs were (as I remember) 14% to 18% less than ours (22%). That ain't cheese - roughly saving 2% of our GNP.
    1. The waits for elective procedures were roughly the same or less than in the US.

    Republican arguments are totally bogus, designed to scare.

    This is off the top of my head, so I would appreciate any corrections.

  •  JOHN MCCAIN HAS BEEN ON SOCIALIZED MEDICINE (7+ / 0-)

    All his life!!!!  As the son of an Admiral, the American people picked up the tab for his birth, as a soldier and a veteran we have paid for all of his medical needs and as a US Senator, the American people continue to pay everytime he goes to see the proctologist.  He wouldn't know what to do without SOCIALIZED medicine.  He just doesn't want it for the rest of America.  

  •  I'm an actuary. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Youffraita, kyril

    I wrote this about John McCain's health care proposals the other day:

    As TPM notes, the McCain health care plan is identical to ... the Bush health care plan.

    In fairness to Sen. McCain, I strongly support his idea of replacing the employer provided health insurance credit to an individual tax credit.  The idea that workers can have their health insurance independent of their work is essential to any successful health care system.  That's why both Sens. Clinton and Obama have proposed allowing everyone to buy into the Federal Employee Health Benefit Plan (FEHBP) -- to allow everyone to purchase health insurance independent of their job.

    McCain's approach has two serious problems.  First, the subsidies are nowhere near sufficient.  Employers generally pay for [73%] of employees health insurance premiums.  McCain subsidies for a family are at most $5,000, but the average cost for a family plan is around $12,000, so that's nowhere near sufficient to abandon the employer-based system.

    The second major problem with McCain's plan is that while he allows people to purchase individual insurance independent of their work, by not allowing people to enroll in the federal or state employee health plans -- which are group insurance plans, and can only accept or reject the entire group (and to make the group insurable, the insurer mandates the insured, or your employer cover a certain percentage, i.e., 75%, of the group in order to keep costs down.) -- he only allows people to enroll in individual insurance, which allows insurers to accept or reject each applicant based on his or her own individual risk.  If the applicant has certain preexisting conditions, the insurer in individual insurance can refuse to cover it.  John McCain believes that somehow economic ambition and charity will somehow take care of this problem.  That is Social Darwinism, and we Democrats believe in something else.

  •  I will never understand (7+ / 0-)

    in a million years why somebody who is the target of a boldface lie in politics just doesn't call a liar a liar.

    Use the word.

    It's effective.

    It gets people's attention.

    It's the truth.

    It's everything that the Village isn't.

    "John McCain is lying about my healthcare proposal".

    He is not 'distorting' it, he is not 'misinterpreting' it, he's lying about it.

    Let David Broder run for the fainting couch while you run to victory in November.

    "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good society holds exactly the same opinion." - Oscar Wilde

    by LeftHandedMan on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:47:20 PM PDT

    •  I will know the Democratic Party is reborn (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Spud1, JeffW, kyril, dansmith17

      when the pillars of that party have the ability to be scathingly blunt when scathingly blunt is called for.

      This thousand year old fucking asshole who lies everytime he parts his lips is not anybody you should be afraid of, he's going to keep driving the country into Bush's ditch if the media and the GOP is allowed to make him an untouchable white knight on a horse.

      You can't even quote him without having him blow a gasket. I would needle him until he exploded like a bomb on camera during a Presidential debate just to see it happen.

      "Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everyone in good society holds exactly the same opinion." - Oscar Wilde

      by LeftHandedMan on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:51:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  McCain is free (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    to demagogue and dissemble in the context of an "opposition" party that won't get off it's knees and offer a popular, coherent alternative.

    Not only do Dems fail to represent their constituency, but they hurt themselves politically by taking mealy-mouth, half-measure, accomodationist positions.

    On healthcare, as on war, the more they accomodate, the bigger the chumps they are.

    You'd think after 7+ years of unmitigated Bushco disaster, there would be something good in the offing.  

    Some payoff.

    Nope.  Not with these loser, losing Dems.

    Corporate populism = fascism.

  •  John McCentrury From "Strange Talk" To "All Talk" (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kyril

    Express

    McCain/(Hagee+Parsley) '08 "We Hunt Jews and Muslims So You Dont Have To. Straight Talk"

    by DFutureIsNow on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:50:45 PM PDT

  •  The one time I WISH McCain was right in saying (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Youffraita, kyril, dansmith17

    that Obama was supporting a single payer universal system, despite it being like gasp SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!

    Yes of course, much better we have bad insurance or  expensive insurance or a combination of those two or no insurance at all, instead. Yes, much better than a country taking care of it's people as some sort of ya know, human right and in the same ways that we've managed to set up something like Medicare. That's just crazy talk.

    But as bad as Obama and Clinton's plans for health coverage (not care) are, they are both scary light years ahead of McCain's "plan." That's scary stuff and I think that if most Americans were told about this plan and understood it, they'd hate it too. But hey, why show a little light on Grandpa McSame and his actual ideas and not just his oh-so charming Maverick! self.

    Damn sick people need to get off the lawn of America!

    Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson

    by ElizabethRegina1558 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 03:51:32 PM PDT

  •  For God sake let's nationalize! (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dansmith17

    Why is the nationalization of health thrown around like it's a curse? What's so frightening about a National Health Service just as they have in good old Blighty?

    Every so often some 'orrible conservative type will bemoan the cost to the taxpayer, but it's noticeable that they've ceased pointing accross the pond to claim Britain would be better with a US style system, cuz it's obvious they wouldn't be.

    The I'm-alright-Jack-fuck-the-rest system we have here is falling apart, but somehow the British NHS continues to move ahead in spite of the very numerous citizens of other countries (including the US) traveling there to receive free treatments.

    Up the socialists! well, at least as far their truly comprehensive health plans are concerned ;)

    THE REVOLUTION WILL BE TELEVISED...DUH!

    by Dirk Thrust on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:01:16 PM PDT

  •  We actually have a six-tier system of care (2+ / 0-)

    To wit:

    1. People with enough wealth either to go without insurance or to jump the line whenever it's more convenient to do so.  This often solves problems with treatment delays or uncovered forms of treatment.
    1. Military and VA coverage, which should perhaps be enumerated separately.  I know of at least one person who raves about how good VA care is, but for most of my life I've heard the opposite.  Of course he used to work there, so he probably gets the officer/VIP version of it.  Certainly the hospital in Wilmington, DE, where my mother's 2nd husband died was a classic roach-infested VA dump with some spectacularly incompetent, unlicensed doctoring going on.  He died of UNDIAGNOSED cirrhosis, by the way, and he wasn't a drinker.  The independent pathologist who did a private autopsy really tore the doctors and the hospital a new one in his report.
    1. Group-insured coverage, which at its best can be the best of the insurance coverages but still often screws people.
    1. Medicare-insured coverage, which often has compromises in treatment options and choice of doctors but can be pretty good.
    1. Individually insured coverage, which can be anywhere from junk insurance to pretty good but lacks most of the consumer protections and portability enjoyed by group-insured consumers
    1. Non-wealthy uninsured, who range from middle class people hoping not to experience a five-, six, or seven-figure illness or accident to poor people who go without care until they show up in the emergency room.

    Pretty damn complicated if you ask me, my friends, and an embarrassment to boot.

    "Proud to be part of DailyKos -- the Best Political Team on . . . well, ANYWHERE"

    by Alden on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:02:21 PM PDT

  •  Medicare for all may not be ideal (0+ / 0-)

    ...but it may be the optimum combination of beneficial and politically achievable at this point in the process.

    "Proud to be part of DailyKos -- the Best Political Team on . . . well, ANYWHERE"

    by Alden on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:03:24 PM PDT

    •  we need to be somewhat careful (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Alden, bwren

      As the NYT article, says Republicans focus on "keeping costs down", while Democrats focus on "insuring everybody". This will be the battlefield. Which
      side can best articulate their goals. ANd you better be sure that the Republicans will tell you it's gonna cost one hell of a lot....advancing a figure that probably won't take into account what it means compared to what we're paying now...
      they love absolute figures, unless, of course, it plays to their disadvantage. And
      also, I fear most independents will come down on the "cost" side....so we have to be ready to frame our side of things.

      And the other reality is that Americans are afraid of change....they like the sound, and th word "reform", but when it comes to doing it they get cold feet very very easily. Which, as Paul Krugman describes, is why the stupid do-nothing Republicans still can get away with their economic philosophy consisting of "cut taxes, deregulate and (if the first two are exposed) deny that the problem even exists." Look for McCain to keep a big on eye the polls showing "voter concerns". If health care doesn't get in the top 3, he might grow real quiet about it, hoping we'll scare the public to death on our own.

      •  It does help to have companies like GM, though (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        dansmith17

        ...on board for putting health care into the realm of government services so that business can better compete on a global scope.  I do think we should be, at least temporarily, retreating a bit on "the world is flat" thinking -- at least until we decide whether it's ever possible to make completely free trade fair and mutually beneficial.  But still I think it's helpful to have some huge, american-as-apple-pie businesses saying this needs to be one of the things government does to make an economy globally fit and competitive.

        "Proud to be part of DailyKos -- the Best Political Team on . . . well, ANYWHERE"

        by Alden on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:23:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Completely free trade" (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          dansmith17

          must be one of those unnatural extremes like laissez-faire capitalism.  When was one extreme or the other, of any duality, ever the right explanation or the right choice, whether we're talking about nature vs. nurture, regulation versus non-regulation, emotion versus logic, reason versus intuition, mercy versus justice, low cost versus high quality, etc.?  It truly takes an ideologue and a zealot to embrace any extreme to the complete exclusion of its complement.  Perhaps that's why mere incompetence can create a considerable mess,  but it takes ideologues and zealots to create the kind of debacles we've seen with this administration.  Only ideologues and zealots can think the solution to any hole is to dig faster, because doctrine insists that digging must create a mound, not a hole.

          "Proud to be part of DailyKos -- the Best Political Team on . . . well, ANYWHERE"

          by Alden on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:34:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  OBAMA WINS GUAM. (0+ / 0-)

    I've already posted my diary for the day, but the last box came in. Obama squeaked by with a 7 vote margin. Yes, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 seven votes. Epic!

    http://www.guampdn.com/...

    The Gas Tax Holiday is a Mental Vacation.

    by JimTXDem on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:07:01 PM PDT

  •  The Same RNC that's complaining (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    smintheus, dansmith17

    Yes, my friends, this is the same RNC that 's complaining about the DNC "100 Years" ad as being deceptive. The same RNC that has so closely coordinated its efforts with the Freedom Watch 527 - which has had the glorious result of local La./Miss. stations pulling of its Ads in one week! The same RNC that has been
    permitting its lackies and candidates to lie and deceive about our health plans, and the whole health care issue. In the NYT article, is evidence that McCain is either an outright liar, or as ignorant of economic principles....or BOTH. He
    claims that European medical care systems are "inefficient" (hence, ours is
    more efficient...right?). Except that European systems spend half on per capita health care costs as we do, get equal or better results (including "customer satisfaction")....so, tell me, what CEO would consider the European system to be the inefficient one?  Not one that who have a job long....

    We just gotta keep pointing out, big time...and that includes Hilary and Obama,
    just what a lying intellectually mediocre empty suit McCAin is. On virtually everything. And the whole Republican party isn't any better.

  •  McCain's right. Obama/Clinton sneak in Medicare. (0+ / 0-)

    Actually McCain's correct. Clinton and Obama both are smart enough to know that the only way to really offer universal health care is to offer everyone ability to sign up with Medicare which both offer.

    Clinton and Obama are doing the nudge, nudge, wink, wink by stopping just short of actually proposing Medicare for all to avoid the socialized medicine charge but hinting that they will offer everyone an opportunity to sign up for it.

    In a way Clinton and Obama repeat Hillary's health care disaster of 1993, offering complex, plans that are a smokescreen for offering Medicare for all which both plans include as an "option".

    So Democrats suffer from three angles. Public sees a confusing plan that doesn't offer them a clear solution to their problem. McCain and the Republicans charge them with "socialized medicine".  If elected, they don't have a clear mandate to offer Medicare for all and will have a hard time reforming US health care system.

    •  Yes and no (0+ / 0-)

      Both Obama and Clinton will stay as much as possible with the current insurance company based system. McCain, being a straight-jacked Republicans, can't offer anything that will have to be financed out of gvt. revenues. So he'll present bogus "ideas", which will be easily shown to be as crappy as everthing else he's shown. The Des Moines Register did just that in today's editorial, sort of picking up on the NYT story indirectly. Ditto with the Sacramento Bee today.

      In short, the only thing McCAin can do is to yell about how much the Dems plans will cost. And hope that resonates because we know Republicans idea of health care reform is "lowering my costs", and don't give a hoot about anyone being
      uninsured. And, of course, they love every opportunity to eliminate health care benefits as provided by businesses (which, in a sense, can be exploited by the Dems at some point in respect to single-payer system. But that's down the road.

      Bottom line, McCAin can only hope to "derail". And that will work only if health care reform lurks down around the 4th or 5th issue for independents and moderates. Forget the GOP base. But there are quite a few blue-collar Repubs/Reagan Dems who've lost their health coverage. STick a Repub in the crap up to his knees and he becomes remarkable human....

      So, it becomes the classic GOP talking points to scare the always ready to be frightened public: your taxes will go up, it will cost too much, it will be big government, you'll lose "freedom of choice", etc etc. It can be countered, but will need planning to do so.

    •  Sneaky (0+ / 0-)

      on top of confusing is always a good approach.  /snark

      I think we have to question a backdoor, crabwise, incremental approach.

      Will Hillbaraky Obinton's plan realize the cost savings and convenience benefits of single payer?  

      Hard to fathom, with huge insurance company profits guaranteed and healthcare carried forward as a corporate commodity.

      At best we get a sneaky, complex system, half-measure system, programmed for failure.

      Said failure not being a step towards a better system at all.

      Thanks Dems!

      Talk of a third party is premature.  First, we'd need a second.

  •  So Canada is stupid for thinking it works? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dansmith17

    Or is McCain in denial hmm?

    "There is nothing wrong with America can't be cured by what is right with America" -Bill Clinton

    by SensibleDemocrat on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:23:52 PM PDT

    •  I wish Canada... (0+ / 0-)

      I wish Canada would get some balls and stand up and tell the RNC that they're sick and tired of being used as a punching bag by the wacko Republicans. Hey,
      they got hot under the collar about NAFT. Of course, now that they've got some conservatives running things, maybe they just want sit back and further indulge in their favorite international game: get punked by the US and take pride in it.
      I've gots friends in both Toronto and Vancouver, who shake their heads in amazement at what the RNC is