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Kid's Comic Called Training Manual For 'Next Pogrom Against Jews'

Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:34:52 AM PDT

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For several years now, I have been tracking and studying the covert aspects of Christian Zionism but today an anonymous source--a devoted and concerned student of the spread of anti-Semiticideas within American pop-culture and religious culture --sent to me a product, currently sold at Barnes and Noble bookstores, that suggests the historically covert anti-Semitism within American Christian Zionist culture is mutating, changing and entering a new phase: the anti-Semitism is becoming overt. The Christian Zionism of Tim Lahaye and of Senator John McCain's recently renounced political endorser Pastor John Hagee, which has traditionally perpetrated coded attacks on Jews while also declaring them to be blessed by God, especially if they move to Israel, may be entering a new and very dark phase.

[UPDATE: I've just learned this is NOT the only viciously anti-Jewish comic of its kind to be recently mass-marketed. Another author I know will be posting, today or tomorrow, a story about another example of this anti-Jewish hate-literature being marketed to children]

Here is an extremely important framing of this issue, from monkeybiz, in the discussion thread

A relevant passage from Bob Altemeyer's "The Authoritarians":

What's the effect of emphasizing the family's religious affiliation to a child? Well, by creating this category of what the family is, you instantly create the category of people who are not that, who are different. You're laying down an in-group versus out-group distinction. Even if you never say a nasty word about other religions, the enormous human tendency to think in ethnocentric terms will create a preference for "people like me." Throw in some gratuitous nasty words about Jews, Muslims, Methodists, atheists, and so on, and you've likely sown the seeds of religious prejudice in a four-year old. Perhaps more importantly in the long run, you've given your child early training in the wonderful world of "Us versus Them"--training that may make it easier for him to acquire racial, sexual, and ethnic prejudices later on.

Comic books are aimed at kids -- who may or may not know the Bible and, at least for most young American readers, have already internalized the Anglo image of Christ. The format doesn't lend itself to the nuance of "They're all Jewish," but seems to hew to the traditional good-guy-vs.-bad-guy storyline. The good guys are Christ and his supporters; the bad guys, anybody who would deny or kill Christ. And that certainly sows the seeds of in/out-group distinction that Altemeyer discusses and for the possible consequences that Troutfishing worries about.

This comic book also confirms a pre-existing mind-set. Again, from Altemeyer:

Ultimately the true believers were saying, "I believe so strongly that the Bible is perfect that there’s nothing, not even the Bible itself, that can change my mind." If that seems like an enormous self-contradiction, put it on the list. We are dealing with very compartmentalized minds. They’re not really interested in coming to grips with what’s actually in the Bible so much as mounting a defense of what they want to believe about the Bible--come Hell or Noah’s high water.

The basic equation is that good=Christ (salvation, beliefs, practices, etc.), bad=anything not Christ-centered. This comic is a tool in supporting and creating this kind of belief system -- as well as a stark depiction of the good-vs.-evil outlook. If you're not with Him, you're against Him. And if you want to know what happens to people who are against Him, go read the "Left Behind" series." Many of us are Jews and didn't even know it, I guess.

I'm not calling for its censorship. I'm asking commenters here to understand that this comic book has an agenda. (Not looking for an argument over this -- just offering an observation.)

Here is another fine comment from studenthinker

The "simplistic 'evil Jews killed our Lord'" meme is a standard anti-semitic meme in Christianity, going back at least to the Middle Ages - it was used to justify persecution of the Jews then and all the way up into modern times.

And the thing with memes like this is that they slide under the radar of conscious reasoning, unless one has learned to be wary and look for them. It's passed down culturally, and taps into irrational aspects of our personality, etc. This is not merely a question of being "adult" in understanding history - it taps into biases the reader may be barely conscious of. Someone reading this comic is probably not going to be analyzing it in terms of historical realism, etc. but simply enjoying the story, which makes it even less likely that they will be confronting it in what you term an "adult" manner.

And a very incisive comment from Gussie_FN

If you can't see the difference between stocking Mein Kampf and anti-Semitic cartoons ... I dunno. Hard to explain. Kinda like talking to someone who doesn't understand why those hypersensitive blacks have such a problem with nooses dangling from trees.




According to Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, based near Boston, the portrayal of Jews found in a Manga comic now sold in Barnes and Noble depicts "A colorful comic training manual for motivating young leaders of the next pogrom against Jews.  Not just offensive--ghastly and horrific in content with a clear enemy scapegoat identified for venting apocalyptic religious bigotry."


Tyndale House, one of the largest Christian and Christian Zionist publishers in the United States, was built largely on the breakthrough publishing success of Tim LaHaye's and Jerry Jenkin's "Left Behind" books, movies and other paraphernalia attached to the now enormous "Left Behind" brand name and Tyndale publishes books by James Dobson, head of the enormous Colorado Springs Christian conservative nonprofit organization "Focus On The Family".


My source who originally discovered what Berlet identifies as a "comic training manual" for "the next pogrom against Jews" states that she:


"bought this copy of Manga Messiah at a local Barnes and Nobles, day before yesterday. Tyndale, the Christian publishing house, was also the publisher of the wildly successful Left Behind series, which popularized dispensational Christian Zionism and provided sales of over 60 million books.  The growing acceptability in our society of this stereotype of Jews is not happening in spite of the apocalyptic Christian Zionist movement.  It is happening because of it!   This movement has been the incubator of media objectifying Jews as non human as well as the source of media that is mainstreaming anti-Jewish conspiracy theory.  It is dressed up as biblical interpretation or futuristic prophecy but the images are being projected to millions of people all over the world.  Even worse, the images are being validated in the minds of these millions as an acceptable way to view Jews because of the visible participation of Jewish leaders with the movement."


In the aftermath of the recent controversy over a video which I made and which subsequently was shown widely on national television, CBS' Wolf Blitzer credited the website I co-founded with journalist Frederick Clarkson with as having forced Arizona Senator John McCain to drop Texas megachurch Pastor John Hagee's February 28, 2008 endorsement of McCain's current presidential bid--because my video showcased an audio excerpt from a sermon Hagee had given which, I believed at the time, had been given "in the late 1990's", in which Hagee stated that "God sent Hitler" and that Jews were not "spiritually alive".


Many news reports have minimize the audio excerpt, passing it off as a one-time event and as "historic". But, Pastor Hagee has not denied his remarks that God sent Hitler, and John Hagee Ministries up to the moment I am writing this, May 29, 2008, 3:49 PM EST, still sells the 3-sermon "Countdown To Crisis" DVD set from which I extracted the audio clip (the "Battle For Jerusalem" sermon). And, Pastor Hagee has over the years, in his sermons, books and films, promoted a wide range of anti-Jewish themes: most of the classic anti-Semitic tropes and slurs that have simmered in the background of Christianity and sometimes come to the foreground--with tragic results.


But how can Pastor Hagee, who has raised substantial amounts of money to help Jews make Aliyah to Israel, who have publicly shed tears over the Holocaust, possibly be anti-Semitic ? The answer is complex and far beyond the scope of this short article, but one particular historical anecdote shines a telling light on the question.


As described in the book Henry Ford and The Jews, by Neil Baldwin, from the period of 1913 to 1920, Henry Ford made a regular, and generous, gift of new Ford automobiles to a one-time neighbor of Ford's: Rabbi Leo Franklin. By 1920, Franklin was on his 7th gifted Ford auto but in the years Franklin had enjoyed Ford's largesse, the Rabbi had risen in local Jewish leadership circles and by 1920 had come to a realization which led the Rabbi to return Ford's 7th gifted auto, a customized Model T; Rabbi Franklin had come to the moral realization he could no longer accept gifts from a man, Henry Ford, whose publication the Dearborn Independent was launching vicious anti-Jewish fusillades and which had begun to echo  the evolving German Dolchstosslegende, the German "stab in the back" myth that formed a substantial part of the anti-Jewish animus growing in Germany in the early 1920's and which attributed the German loss in World War One to a Jewish plot.


As my anonymous source for the striking Manga comic book material featured in this post explains:


"Henry Ford believed that his friend, Rabbi Franklin, should not be concerned about Ford's spread of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," because as his spokesperson explained, he was only targeting "a certain type of Jew to open up the way for those Jews' self-correction."  There could not be a better description of the current dispensationalist activities.  They happily embrace the "good Jews" who will play their role in bringing about the violent apocalyptic drama that will end the "Jewish Question" forever and bring Jews to correct belief.  However, while wrapped in the protection of a big Israeli flag, they are free to brutally attack "a certain type of Jew" which is the source of the moral degeneration in America and the obstacle to the Christian millennial reign."


In the 1920's, automaker Henry Ford paid for a mass printing of his "The International Jew" pamphlet, a close derivation of the "Protocols", and through such nakedly anti-Semitic literature Ford helped shape the ideological climate in Germany that fed the rise of Third Reich and The Holocaust. But, Ford did not believe he hated Jews as a people: only the "wrong" Jews.


As conservative Baptist scholar David P.Gushee described, in an address given at the Andover-Newton Theological Seminary, in Andover Massachusetts, during the summer of 2006, there are many troubling similarities between the narrative of cultural despair and cultural complaint that prevailed in Germany of the 1930's and corresponding narratives of cultural despair and complaint that have been on the rise in America in recent decades:


"It was this cultural despair--a toxic brew of reaction against secularism, anger related to the loss of World War I, distress over cultural disorientation and confusion, fears about the future of Germany, hatred of the victorious powers and of those who supposedly stabbed Germany in the back, and of course the search for scapegoats (mainly the Jews)--that motivated many Germans to adopt a reactionary, authoritarian, and nationalistic ethic that fueled their support for Hitler's rise to power. A broadly appealing narrative of national decline (or conspiratorial betrayal) was met by Hitler's narrative of national revenge leading to utopian unity in the Fuhrer-State.


Conservative American evangelicals in recent decades have been deeply attracted to a parallel narrative of cultural despair. Normally the story begins with the rise of secularism in the 1960s, the abandonment of prayer in schools, and the Roe decision, all leading to an apocalyptic decline of American culture that must be arrested soon, before it is too late and "God withdraws his blessing" from America. While very few conservative evangelicals come into the vicinity of Hitler in hatefulness, elements similar to that kind of conservative-reactionary-nationalist narrative can be found in some Christian right-rhetoric: anger at those who are causing American moral decline, fear about the future, hatred of the "secularists" now preeminent in American life, and the search for scapegoats. The solution on offer--a return to a strong Christian America through determined political action--also has its parallels with the era under consideration."


In Germany of the 1920's the key purported villains behind an alleged national, cultural and moral decline were the same as today in America of the early 3rd millennium: liberal Jews, socialists, liberals, gays, artists and those in society who follow non-conventional lifestyles and cleave to non-conventional, leftist politics. Germany in the 1920's was culturally one of the most liberal, permissive societies on Earth, but that changed radically--and in a breathtakingly short period of time--with the rise of Nazism.


Pastor John Hagee professes, with great apparent sincerity, even to tears, to love Jews. But Hagee also promotes, in his sermons and literature, conspiracy theories that trace back, in their lineage, to "The Protocols of The Elders of Zion" and Henry Ford's "The International Jew". How, then, can these clashing views of John Hagee be reconciled ? One answer comes, in the form of a question,  from the account of Henry Ford and Rabbi Frankel - what is the nature of friendship and what is the nature of love ? Another answer comes from the field of criminology, which recognizes : love, hate and murder are, all too often, tragically, not far apart.


As Political Research Associates Senior Analyst Chip Berlet further characterized the Manga comic book "Manga Messiah" currently sold at Barnes and Noble bookstores, the comic:


"Portrays a version of reading Biblical text about the crucifixion of Christ rejected by most Christians for decades--especially since the Nazi genocide of Jews.


Many readers of the Bible's New Testament will recognize the jibes from the jeering crowd as coming from Jewish chief priests, elders, scribes, and Pharisees. If readers don't know the references, the Bible verses cited below the images can be consulted to make clear the Jewish identity of the bloodthirsty crowd taunting Jesus.


These images of Jews as the Christ killers make Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" hideous snuff movie seem tame in comparison."

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Tags: Anti-Semitic (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 205 comments

    •  cc Olberman. n/t (4+ / 0-)

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight. John McCain = Old Boat Anchor

      by JeffW on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:36:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  best to address it by exposing it to the light (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Troutfishing, mataliandy

      I am sure the pages will burst into flames as the first rays of the sun hit it.

      OIL UBER ALLES says "MORE WARS" McCain

      by KnotIookin on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:43:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You might try a little editing... (6+ / 0-)

      I read the whole diary and I agree with your purpose--but I had trouble relating the comic book examples with the point you are making. I'm finding it hard to gras what it is that is anti-Semitic in the comic book.

      "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

      by homogenius on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:58:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually on the second or third (0+ / 0-)

        run through, I had an idea of maybe a bit more of what he meant.  If you take the first comic panel as being an image of a Jewish church elder in league with the powers of darkness, rather than just 'conjuring up the image' of Beelzebub in his scare tactics in trying to convince those guys not to trust Jesus, it suddenly looks a lot more sinister.

        Which, if you're not used to manga, I suppose you could interpret it that way.

        Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

        by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:02:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Speaking of darkness (0+ / 0-)

          If you take the first comic panel as being an image of a Jewish church elder in league with the powers of darkness,

          if you also look at the first picture it is clear that the "evil Jews" have darker skin than Jesus, although there is no historical reason to depict him as lighter skinned.  The Jews' skin color is darkened, Barack Obama's skin color is darkened in ads - these people are playing on racism on more than one level.

      •  You don't see the anti-Semitism ? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        another American

        Oh my.

        •  But, I neglected to add a key image.... (0+ / 0-)

          There. Is the picture clearer now ?

          •  Well, I see in the new image (3+ / 0-)

            the standard 'Jesus was a white guy' thing the fundamentalists love.

            Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

            by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:13:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What, you mean Jesus wasn't born as a (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              buddabelly

              white American?  But I thought America was His country?!  

              If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

              by nilocjin on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:15:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yup. (3+ / 0-)

                Those gold tablets I dug up told me so, once I figured out the hieroglyphics.  I'd show em to you, but I had to melt them down so I could pretend I found the gold as nuggets and buy that porsche that Jesus wanted me to have.

                Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:16:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Point here is: Jews laughing at torture of Jesus (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              oldjohnbrown, trashablanca

              If you get a chance, James Carrol's "Constantine's Sword", by James Carroll, goes into the history of this realm - Christian anti-Semitism.

              •  I generally (3+ / 0-)

                don't have a high opinion of mankind as a whole, as witness the huge crowds public hangings and the Roman colliseum drew, so I can very well guess that any number of people at Jesus' crucifixion would behave so, just as the laughing happy faces in the Gitmo pictures.  Of course the people who wanted him out of the way because he threatened their power would be the most vindictive and cruel.

                Again, I don't see how that smears Jewish people (such as Jesus) as a whole.  To me it's a class war sorta thing more than a racial one.  The man vs the oppressed.

                Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:22:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Perhaps the commenter (0+ / 0-)

                isn't aware of the significance of the tallis and t'fillin?

                Otherwise, I'm baffled.

                •  If I'm the commenter (0+ / 0-)

                  Then no, I'm not, but I think we're talking at cross-purposes.

                  I'm perfectly aware those are supposed to be rabbis or some similar type.  What I disagree with is that showing them taunting Jesus smears every Jew, as I see the whole episode as  being like unto an intra-organizational knife fight.

                  Rising young superstar threatens power of established company men, they get ticked off and want him rubbed out.  It would be silly to portray them as other than Jews, because that was the established power structure he threatened.

                  Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                  by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:30:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But Jesus isn't portrayed as a Jew the (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    another American, klizard

                    way the Rabbis are, is he?  Jesus is a white guy, they've got dark skin... they look generally sinister.  But no, nothing against non-Jesus Jews there... especially with a target audience that already assumes the worst about our darker skinned brethren.

                    If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

                    by nilocjin on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:34:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  So why are the Rabbis portrayed in this way ? (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    trashablanca

                    Your opinion on this is contravened by conventional scholarship and thinking in propaganda studies and Holocaust studies.

                    Flat out.

                    •  Look (3+ / 0-)

                      I'm not disagreeing that the idea here is to portray 'Jesus' as the 'good guy' and his opposers as 'the bad guys'.

                      That's standard in all Christian mythos/propaganda.

                      If you take him to have lived historically, and even come close to believing that the Bible is vaguely historically accurate in this episode, then I don't see where this comic goes far afield from what is written in the Bible.

                      But anti-semitism is in the mind of the anti-semitic.  IF you WANT to read it as a simplistic 'evil Jews killed our Lord', then of course you can.  If you're slightly more adult in your understanding of how humans act, then it becomes a simple power struggle issue, and the fact that Jews are even present is simply because that's what makes sense in context of the supposed historical facts.  Had Jesus been crucified in Ireland at the behest of pagan priests, then we'd be seeing guys in wolfskulls laughing at him.

                      Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                      by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:56:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  ah (0+ / 0-)

                        but see, that's part of the problem (and the point of the comic). The "simplistic 'evil Jews killed our Lord'" meme is a standard anti-semitic meme in Christianity, going back at least to the Middle Ages - it was used to justify persecution of the Jews then and all the way up into modern times.

                        And the thing with memes like this is that they slide under the radar of conscious reasoning, unless one has learned to be wary and look for them. It's passed down culturally, and taps into irrational aspects of our personality, etc. This is not merely a question of being "adult" in understanding history - it taps into biases the reader may be barely conscious of. Someone reading this comic is probably not going to be analyzing it in terms of historical realism, etc. but simply enjoying the story, which makes it even less likely that they will be confronting it in what you term an "adult" manner.

                        Tiberius to the Roman Senate upon their assurance that they would pass whatever laws he liked: "How eager you all are to be slaves."

                        by StudentThinker on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:18:18 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Okay (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          lotlizard

                          that's the best argument I've seen so far in the comments (although I haven't read them all).

                          I think the problem I had with the diary and the conclusions were that very little time was actually spent on the title piece - the comic.  We got a few panels early on, and a blurb at the bottom, and on that basis were expected to see how well it fit in with all the other anti-semitism diaried upon.  Given either more of the work or a description of more of the comic, I may very well agree that it is anti-semitic, but I felt we were being asked to draw some fairly strong conclusions based upon a very small sample, and I wasn't sure the diarist knew much about the conventions of manga itself that could be misinterpreted as being there to reinforce anti-semitism.

                          Given the people pushing it for sale, I would not be surprised if THEY found it anti-semitic, and were thus trying to get it to market to add to anti-semitism.  I'm just not sure the original artists were being anti-semitic.

                          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                          by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:33:09 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  It was evil Romans who killed Jesus. (0+ / 0-)

                          Judea was under Roman occupation and Jesus was a rebel against the Roman peace. The Sanhedrin had no choice but to comply.

                          So where's all the imagery of rat-faced Italians forever cursed by God?

                          •  Haven't most of the popes (0+ / 0-)

                            been Italian?  I think you'd have a hard time running a religion in which your spiritual successor to your messiah blamed his own people for his death.  Of course, I can't think of any atm, but no doubt there are a religion or two out there like that.

                            Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                            by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:36:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Why the Romans got off scot-free (0+ / 0-)

                              while the Jews get blamed? Because by the time of Paul Christian proselytization among the Jews had much less success than proselytization among the gentile pagan Romans and Greeks, to the extent that the Pauline community disassociated iitself from Judaism; and especially because by the end of the 4th century the Roman Emperors Constantine and Theodosius had made Christianity the empire's state religion and banned paganism (391).

                              "History" is the version of events written by the victors. The Christians were victors in that they got their religion endorsed as the Empire's; the Romans were even greater victors, in that they coopted Christianity and distorted its teachings to turn it into a cult of the imperial authority. The Jews were not victors, so they lost their sovereignty and their Temple, were scapegoated and demonized as Christ-killers, were driven into diaspora, and eventually blamed for all of Europe's failures and subjected to attempted extermination.

                              And that's why I find the imagery in this manga so dishonest and disgusting.  

                  •  The establishment power at the time (0+ / 0-)

                    was the roman empire.

                    •  Jesus didn't threaten the Romans (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      karateexplosions

                      they saw messiah figures come and go.  To them he was a small fish in a small pond of one subgroup of the territories they occupied.  He threatened the distinct religious subgroup to which he belonged, because he contravened the existing power structure they'd built up.

                      Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                      by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:57:52 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                        1. we're assuming that he was a historical figure and that the gospels are a historical account

                        so,

                        If the the Jewish religious leaders were the heads of their local establishment power, why did they need to talk the Romans into executing Jesus?

                        also,

                        Wouldn't the gospel writers want to play down the fact that the Romans killed their leader, if at the time of the Gospel writings, Christians were being persecuted by the Romans?

                        •  Granted (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          lotlizard, karateexplosions

                          this all assumes that it's historically based, and not simply a Christian fairy tale.  But if we do start from that assumption, then the power the Jewish leaders had was circumscribed by the occupying forces.  It's pretty common that people who have a little power will more jealously guard it than people who have a lot more.

                          While the Romans could have people put to death and easily ignore the protests of the occupied peoples, I don't think it worked in reverse.  The state reserves the right to 'legally' put people to death as it were, so while the Romans could go around executing folks, I don't think the local Jewish leaders enjoyed the same freedoms, so they would have to involve the Romans.

                          I think I've covered my take well enough in a half dozen or so comments on here.  If you want to manganize it a bit more, you could cast Jesus as a rising local Triad member and the Rabbis as a council of district bosses.  He's swaying the people under them to possibly change loyalties, which threatens their positions in the organization, so they plant some evidence to get him arrested and executed by the cops.

                          Had you read that version of the comic, would you think that every Japanese person was evil, or would you have focused on the power struggle?

                          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                          by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:10:26 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I think we agree on a lot of points (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            drbloodaxe

                            If it were just treated as a epic drama myth (as I do) then historicity and accuracy don't matter and it's just a brilliant story about the struggle over power.

                            My issue is that if you treat Gospel as historical Gospel, you come away with some strange implications. And if you add your own twists to the story, the message you get from the story can be a very different one.

                            In your Japanese crime drama, if it was based on a Japanese Jesus figure and Japanese local bosses, but in the movie version, they decided to have an Australian actor play the Jesus figure, and make the Japanese bosses all act like stereotypical Japanese caricatures, I would have a hard time focusing on the power struggle.

                      •  Messiah figures are often threatening, (0+ / 0-)

                        e.g. the Mahdi in the Sudan.

                        Religious elites like the leaders of the pharisees and sadducees are usually at least somewhat self-interested and possessed of survival instincts. Charismatic messiah figures on the other hand can stir up a lot of trouble. I would have been threatened by Jesus if I were the Romans.

                        Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. -Barack Obama

                        by klizard on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:11:53 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I tend to think (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          karateexplosions

                          that if you accept this as historical, that he merely would have wound up crucified as a troublemaker in general, not that they felt especially threatened by him, other than spreading discontent if his perceived power over the occupied peoples grew enough.

                          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                          by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:20:52 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  The Romans found Jewish messianism very (0+ / 0-)

                        threatening. Jesus' followers were acclaiming him King of the Jews, implicitly challenging Roman hegemony. Roman fears were justified: look at what would happen in just another thirty years.

                        It was necessary to test the loyalty of the Sanhedrin by having them condemn Jesus. Primary responsibility for the execution of Jesus was Roman.

                        After another century, though, it became convenient for the Christians to blame the Jews. That's because proselytization among the Jews had failed and Paul was now targetting the gentiles (Greeks and Romans) for conversion.

                        And if you've ever been exposed to antisemitic imagery you'd at once recognize its kinship with the imagery in this manga. That this crap is being peddled to kids (or manga-reading uneducated adults) is an obscenity, and Tyndale and the "artist" should be called to account for themselves.

                        •  I'm curious (0+ / 0-)

                          I freely admit I haven't dug deep into the history of the time, but is that interpretation of the events from contemporaneous sources, or based on after the fact interpretations by later authors?  Ie, are there Roman manuscripts that speak of the dangers of Christianity at that point in time, or only later?  You seem to speak as if you know more about it, so I'll be lazy and let you trot out sources :)

                          I don't think I've been exposed to antisemitic imagery (apart from right here, I guess), so it goes right past me.  As I said elsewhere though, for folks like me, it doesn't create any kind of hatred or dislike of Jews, as the 'Jewishness' of the rabbis seems secondary to the apparent storyline of establishment vs upstart rabblerouser.

                          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                          by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:41:58 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Roman sources (2+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            arielle, drbloodaxe

                            from the time of Jesus don't speak of "Christianity" as a threat because Christianity did not yet exist to them; the Romans as yet had no reason to didn't distnguish the followers of Jesus from other Jewish sects.

                            But the Romans already had plenty of reason to worry about Jewish revolts. Pompey was able to turn Judea into a Roman client state in 63 BCE only because Judea was at the time torn apart in civil war between Sadducees and Pharisees. From 6 CE Judea was no longer under a vassal king but was now a province of the Roman Empire, under Roman governors. Despite this resistance continued and the Jews launched several major revolts: the Great Revolt of 66-70 (which was suppressed with great bloodshed, and resulted in the destruction of the Temple); the Kitos War of 115-117; and the Bar Kochba Revolt of 132-135 (in which half a million Jews were killed, according to Cassius Dio.) Interestingly, there was also a Judaean revolt in 351, when the Emperor was Constantius II-- a Christian.  

        •  In the two comic panels you showed? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lotlizard, karateexplosions

          Panel section one:  church elder tries to keep laypeople from following Jesus by insinuating he's in league with the Devil.

          Panel section two:  laypeople, scoffing, walk away as church elder reiterates his assertion.

          Again, isn't that the standard Christian mythology?  How is it more anti-Semitic than the Bible is already, if so?

          Given that Jesus and the people whose power he was threatening were all Jews, of course the story involves Jewish church leaders.  IS the rest of the manga far worse than what you show here, or is this just at the same level of anti-Semitism as the rest of the Bible?

          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

          by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:10:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You've internalized it then. (0+ / 0-)

            There are many ways of interpreting the Bible - which has a great deal of problematic material.

            Mainstream Christianity walked away, following the Holocaust, from the Biblical interpretations you're touting...

            Because, the world saw where such interpretations led:

            To mass murder.

            •  That's where (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              lotlizard, karateexplosions

              Religion generally leads.

              To say they 'walked away' from it means, that, yet again, people have merely shoved an unpleasant part of their religious nuttery into a dark corner, rather than renounced it entirely after having embraced that either it's Divine or it isn't, and if you read the whole thing, it's pretty obvious it isn't Divine.

              Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

              by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:25:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  actually, no Bruce I don't either. The images (3+ / 0-)

          look nothing like the stereotypical "Jew" imagery seen in antisemetic tracts and lit..

          As a matter of fact, I would have thought they were depicting an Egyptian high priest.

          Looks awfully like the morning kids show with the mummy king and the little girl.

          Though I have to admit I am not a fan of Japanese Anime and Manga is even lower on my list.

          Add in the publisher and possibly images not shown here and maybe you're right but from those two images I don't see it.

          •  He was wearing a tallis! (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            GussieFN

            I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

            by arielle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:16:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Erm (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              buddabelly, karateexplosions

              A) What's a tallis, B) who is wearing it, and C) why is that shocking?

              Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

              by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:17:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  to repeat bloodax's question (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              karateexplosions

              I googled tallis and I guess it's the robe type garment?

              As a Catholic, that looks just like the robes the priests wore when I was an altar boy.

              Also looks just like the garments cartoons always show ancient egyptians wearing.

              Now if the Star of David was displayed prominantly or the image was closer to the stereotype, I may have guessed the image was supposed to be Jewish. As it is I wouldn't have known ........

              •  Well, heck I figured (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                buddabelly

                they were supposed to be Jewish church elders of some sort, because pagan church elders aren't supposed to have had any particular beef with Jesus.  I just didn't see how an organizational power struggle smears an entire religion or ethnicity.

                Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:27:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I couldn't tell the subject was Jesus until the (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  karateexplosions

                  third panel was added.

                  And I still don't see the anti semitism,

                  Per the Bible Jesus was chosen by the High Priests of the temple for execution over Barabbas a killer iirc.  It has been a lot of years since cathechism class though.

                  This may be antisemetic, but you would have to be pretty steeped in the culture of the dominionist right to pick it up. imho of course.

              •  Traditional prayer shawl (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                oldjohnbrown

                and the striped blocks on the bottom are a give away.

                The wearing of tefflin (phylacteries) is another dead give away.

                I have met people who don't think there is anything bigoted about saying "nigger rigged" too but shit hell.

                Since when can't the group being offended define what it is that is offensive to them?

                I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

                by arielle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:52:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  When the group is (0+ / 0-)

                  white males, usually.

                  Everybody else can claim misogyny, racism, anti-semitism, etc, etc, etc.

                  You try to claim something offends you as a white male and you'll be lucky if all you get is mocked ;)

                  Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                  by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:00:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, I will admit (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Troutfishing

                    that even as a female I am offended by ads (JC Penny comes to mind) of "Dad" being helpless when left alone with the children.

                    Does that help?  :o)

                    I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

                    by arielle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:05:30 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  To put this differently : (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      arielle

                      Those figures so darkly and viciously portrayed, with big noses, wearing talises, wringing their hands and scheming with the devil to torture Jesus...

                      They could be many things I suppose :

                      It's all a question of interpretation some might say.

                      Some might say those figures are actually rocks or trees, unicorns or hyenas, clouds or abstract geometric forms.

                      The Greek sophists made quite an art form out of such styles of argumentation, thousands of years ago....

                      Hence the word "sophistry".

                      •  Are you intentionally missing my point? (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        karateexplosions

                        I never once denied they were Jewish rabbis.  I said that different people will see the comic differently.  Because you want to seek out 'anti-Semitism' and bring it to light, you see it in terms of 'evil Jews laugh and torture/have killed Christian Christ'.  Because I'm not religious, I see it as 'power struggle internal to organization'.  Most manga, like most comic books overemphasizes stereotypes to feed the lack of subtlety of the reader.  Most women are enormously bosomed, men are generally all hyper fit, power or strength of passion is shown with glows or vibrating lines, etc, etc, etc.

                        They have to be Jewish rabbis, if you're going to follow the plotline written in the Bible.  It would make no sense to replace them with rastafarians.

                        Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                        by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:16:14 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  That's why the subject of the crucifixion (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          drbloodaxe

                          is unsuitable for manga. Manga is for kids or mouth-breathers moved by stereotypes and incapable of subtlety.  

                          This manga feeds existing antisemitic stereotypes, and that's why Tyndale Press (which would ordinarily be quite hostile to manga themes and styles) is peddling it.

                      •  Well said. (0+ / 0-)

                        And painting swastikas on people's garage doors is simple vandalism (can't be a "hate" crime because all crimes are "hate" crimes!).

                        And Mel Gibson was simply drunk.

                        I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

                        by arielle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:19:22 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, actually (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          karateexplosions

                          I'm against having 'thought crime' laws.

                          If somebody vandalizes my house, should they get less punishment then somebody vandalizing another house simply because they used a racial slur while being arrested?

                          If somebody is killed, the killer should not be given a lighter sentence because they didn't happen to call the victim a name while killing them.

                          Mel Gibson is an ass and anti-semitic, but we used to not get arrested for our thoughts, we used to get arrested for our actions.

                          Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                          by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:43:28 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Hate crimes are not thought crimes. (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            arielle

                            We have no idea what people are thinking when they commit a crime. But they could make threatening statements that make the crime more serious than just the violence or vandalism.

                            A hate crime involves a statement, a threat, and threats are punishable all on their own. If I tell Bob, "Bob, I'm going to come over to your house and kick your ass tomorrow," that's a threat I can be prosecuted for if it's at all plausible I will actually do this. Painting a swastika on somebody's garage door is saying to members of minority groups, and especially the owner of the garage, "One of these days I'm going to come over and kick your ass." People actually carry out these threats sometimes, so they are plausible threats. The law should recognize this. Punishing hate-crimes is not punishing people for their thoughts, it's more like punishing them for inciting violence.

                            Whenever we dumb down the political debate, we lose. -Barack Obama

                            by klizard on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:18:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Threats are always punishable (0+ / 0-)

                              It's called assault.  Once you add the physical, you tack on battery.  But you can't even say 'You take your pills or else' in a hospitable without having committed assault.

                              What I'm saying is I find it of little use to break out crimes into ever smaller units and say this crime differs from that crime ad infinitum.

                              My take is, punish everyone equally for the crimes committed, or else you imply that to commit a crime against one person matters less than to commit a crime against another.  

                              Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                              by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:46:13 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                          •  There is a high standard of proof (0+ / 0-)

                            for a hate crime.  That's why they are hard to prosecute.

                            If someone burns a cross on a black person's lawn, it is a crime committed not only against that person, but every person of color in the area.  It is an implied threat to a group simply because they are members of that group.

                            I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love. -Maynard J. Keenan

                            by arielle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:26:43 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes, thank you ;) n/t (0+ / 0-)

                      Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                      by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:16:34 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  I was asking for clarification. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Troutfishing, karateexplosions

          Don't get defensive--I said I agree with your point generally. But I found the diary a little hard to follow.

          "Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole. Troll-be-gone...apply directly to the asshole."

          by homogenius on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:37:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Wow, what revolting images. (5+ / 0-)

    Like something from "Der Sturmer" in 1930s Germany.

    JOHN McCAIN = George W. Bush's 3rd term.

    by chumley on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:40:23 AM PDT

  •  Counter-intuitive (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, GreyHawk, spyguy999

    Hagee has the reputation for being fiercely protective Jews.

    It is only when you dig a little deeper into his ACTIONS that you see his real agenda.

    Beware the man who professes to be your friend, and slides in behind you with a knife in his hand...

    •  Actually, beware anyone who goes around (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mataliandy, buddabelly, Dennnis

      calling people 'friend'.  Real friends don't go around calling  each other friend, only snake oil salesmen like McCain do.

      Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

      by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:48:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That DOES bug me! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        drbloodaxe

        You know, friend, I've been thinking about what you wrote.

        Friendly friends like us friends need to stick together!

        I have the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge I would like to show you, and later, friend, we need to TALK about your support for the Iraq War.

        Yeah.

  •  Thanks Troutfishing (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GussieFN, Troutfishing, arielle

    for having the stomach to overturn so many rocks. This stuff need to be exposed.

    You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

    by zerone on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:42:09 AM PDT

  •  this is sold at BARNES and NOBEL? (5+ / 0-)

    ok I think we need a massive letter/call/fax/email action here....  

    OIL UBER ALLES says "MORE WARS" McCain

    by KnotIookin on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:45:36 AM PDT

  •  I'm a bit confused (4+ / 0-)

    perhaps because I only bother to read the fun bits of the Bible, with God sending bears to tear kids up and stuff, but I thought that was standard Christian dogma, that it was the Jewish leaders of the time egging the Romans on to crucify Jesus because he was an upstart threatening to overturn their power structure.  

    Nothing specifically anti-semitic to me, he was a Jew, they were Jews.  If Jesus had been a Buddhist, then the leaders egging the Romans on would have been Buddhists, etc.  The point being not that 'Jews wanted him dead cause Jews are eeeeevil', but that the guys who were in the same power structure didn't want to lose all the power they held over their own congregations (or whatever the term is) because he was wandering around performing miracles and telling people to not just hold to the established powers.

    Or is that last paragraph or two something different than the rest of the diary?

    Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

    by drbloodaxe on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:45:53 AM PDT

    •  But what you've just described (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Troutfishing, another American

      is the basis of anti-semitism.  Instead of reading it as "God set it up so that Jesus had to die at the hands of his own people," these people read it as "those evil Jews killed our lord and savior," and hold that against all Jews 2000 years later.

      If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

      by nilocjin on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:19:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]