Daily Kos

Gas Tax: it's still time to increase it.

Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:11:51 PM PDT

I argued on this website for an increase in the gas tax 3 years ago. I tried again 2 years ago. Following vigorous opposition by a number of kossacks, the concept was dropped from Energize America as being politically deadly.

I note now that the gas tax holiday is being properly blasted on this site as the insane idea it is. In that context, could we go one step further and actually suggest that increasing the gas tax makes a lot of sense?

The main arguments against the gas tax are as follows:

  • it's politically deadly to advocate it
  • this is the US, not Europe - people simply have no alternative
  • it's a highly regressive tax, which will hurt the poor horribly

I noted, back then, that prices were going to increase anyway and thus that it was better to have the money go to Washington rather than to Ryhiad, Moscow, Tehran or Caracas. People scoffed at that, but maybe that argument has gained traction in the meantime? I'll say it again: prices WILL increase, and will go to the level that is so painful that people change their behavior even though they have no practical alternative. Will you believe me now? If you accept that notion, getting gas prices to increase in a controlled and predictable fashion will be a really useful tool for the economy, and for people, to adapt over the medium term and to move durably to a lower fuel consumption level.

People are always saying there is no alternative, but consider this:

Juneau functions with less electricity
AVALANCHE AFTERMATH:Higher price has energized conservation.

Avalanches earlier this month knocked down transmission lines and cut off Juneau's source of low-cost hydroelectric power. Threatened with a fivefold increase in utility bills, Juneau quickly powered down.

Stores, though open, went partially dark. Neon signs were switched off and vending machines unplugged. At home, residents of this former Gold Rush town began living a little bit like pioneers, dusting the snow off the grill, stringing clotheslines in the backyard and flicking off their TV sets. Within a week, electrical usage across town was down as much as 30 percent.

(...)

As back-up diesel generators shouldered the load, the electric company began warning customers that life in Juneau -- already expensive -- was about to get a lot more so.

With oil prices reaching a record $120 a barrel, Alaska Electric Light and Power said customers might have to pay for an extra $25 million in diesel over the three months it would take to repair the lines. The utility warned that rates would probably leap from an average of 11 cents per kilowatt-hour to more than 50 cents, or about five times the 10.3 cents that is the national average.

With explicitly scheduled tax hikes over the coming years, people would know that prices will go up and would plan accordingly, with the time to do it in an efficient way.

Because, make no mistake, doing it if a shock happens will be hugely painful. And doing it the "slowly boiling frog" way as now does not seem to be very effective yet, as people do not seem to quite believe that gas prices will remain that expensive, let alone increase more.

And remember, the money gets to stay home, to be used to get the alternatives ready.

As to the regressive nature of the tax - again, the price hikes will happen anyway. The regressive price movements WILL happen. The difference is that in one case, the budgetary resource to do something about it is available. From the simplest - refund the amount of extra taxes to all US citizens via a "flat rebate" (everybody gets the same amount) -  to more sophisticated uses including incentives for alternative energy to direct investment in public transport, there are a lot of ways for the pain to be mitigated.

The point again, is that there WILL BE PAIN. Because consumption needs to go down, which means changing the current unsustainable ways. whicvh means, again, increasing prices. We can organise it, or we can have it happen to us. At this point, less so than 3 years ago, but more thna in 3 years' time, it is still our choice.

The inevitability of that change is a notion that is really hard to accept, but that does not make it less true.

Maybe the political minds amongst you that say it is impossible to make people accept such a notion are right, and we're truly fucked. I'm still believing that (enough) people are smart and can be told the hard truth.

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  •  Tip Jar - 4 May (168+ / 0-)

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    •  Prices will increase... (51+ / 0-)

      Oil is expensive because oil is scarce

      The idea that oil companies are somehow 'to blame' for record oil prices and rising fuel costs is seductive but absurd. For all their power and profits, the international oil companies are in fact in trouble. They may still be swimming in cash, but no longer in oil. Despite vast investment in exploration and production, these days they generally fail to replace the oil they produce each year with fresh discoveries, or even to maintain current levels of output. Shell's oil production has been falling for six years, BP's seems to have peaked 2005, and this week even the mighty Exxon was forced to admit its output dropped 10% in the first quarter of the year.

      None of this should come as a surprise since all the evidence now suggests the world is rapidly approaching "peak oil", the point when global oil production goes into terminal decline for fundamental geological reasons. Annual discovery of oil has been falling for over forty years, and now for every barrel we find we consume three. Oil production is already shrinking in 60 of the world's 98 oil producing countries – including Britain, where output peaked in 1999 and has already plunged by more than half. When an individual country peaks it only matters for that country – Britain became a net importer of oil in 2006 – but when global supply starts to shrink the effects could be ruinous for everybody.

      (...)

      the simple fact is that global oil production – including non-conventional sources, biofuels and the kitchen sink - has remained essentially flat since early 2005. For three years the oil supply has been a zero sum game in which if one country consumes more, another has to consume less. Since so much of the demand growth comes from the developing world or OPEC members themselves, oil demand will probably continue to grow despite the gathering recession in the West.

      •  we need to reduce the demand for gasoline (21+ / 0-)

        Taxing it is one way of doing it and  that extra revenue could be used to further reduce the demand for gas.

        The new funds could be used to give those employers that can have some of their workforce do most of their work from home the funds they need to improve their networks system.

        Millions of workers today could be working from home and  these people would  not have to drive to work on a daily basis.  

        •  Absolutely ... (10+ / 0-)

          might as well put the inevitable price increases to good use for Americans (other than Exxon-Mobil executives and board members).

          •  I'd vote for an increase in the Gas Tax if... (9+ / 0-)

            The additional revenue went into a fund to enact the implementation of solutions that are already out there.

            But it takes a national will to enact them. For thirty years politicians have paid lip service to alternative energy to get elected and done nothing.

            Today on CNN a government "expert" was talking about the future being hybrid cars that can be plugged into a charger unit...

            Future he says??????

            Two college kids in Illinois took $3000 and added an extra battery pack and a charger plug to their Toyota Prius and did it NOW! It was with off the shelf parts and there wasn't anything experimental about it!

            Why not a fund to help existing hybrid owners convert their cars or a program of tax credits for those who do it? Why is is always "in the future?"

            Brother's car gets 100 miles-per-gallon
            http://video.aol.com/...

            New generations of highly efficient and ecologically safe wind turbines are now coming on to the market, but the government tax subsidies for installing them are now about to expire.

            How about putting some of the gas tax money aside to subsidize home owners or big commercial users that install systems like these:

            Jay Leno Builds a Wind Turbine on His Green Garage
            As part of an ongoing project with Popular Mechanics to make his garage more sustainable, the Tonight Show host is getting set to install a state-of-the-art turbine on top of the shop.

            Video
            http://www.popularmechanics.com/...

            Both Clinton and Obama have proposed large incentives for green energy jobs and assistance for solar projects after their elected. Why wait?

            Why not put some of the fund into converting Federal buildings and State's schools to solar now?

            Rebuild our public mass transit system and expand it! John Edwards proposed improving our current systems and extending them into rural areas as well. Its a good idea.

            The point to my rant is that there are solutions in front of us right now, but we don't demand that our politicians enact them. Its got to be done sometime... why not start now?

        •  building more and better mass transit (9+ / 0-)

          is the only way to get people to consume less gas. well, that and really starting to push carpools.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:32:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When the Baby Boom marches into Old Age, (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Jawis, esquimaux, Rick Winrod

            many will wear t-shirts that proclaim, "Macular Degenerate." Others will have arthritis, or the early stages of Alzheimers; such that they will want to go places but won't be able to drive. We will need better transit and paratransit systems to meet this new demand. Transportation planners should have started considering this demographic some years ago.

            I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

            by Judge Moonbox on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:34:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You're almost correct (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Creosote

            Building more and better mass transit, but the key is actually getting people to use it. Far too many people seem to have the attitude that mass transit is OK with them as long as they don't have to use it.

            More and better mass transit needs to be part of a comprehensive approach that includes a higher gasoline tax, along with other measures to allay people's concerns about using mass transit, both real and perceived. For instance here in Seattle many people don't seem to want to use mass transit because there are homeless people who use the busses for shelter, drug deals sometimes happen on busses, and the like. I would say, have a police presence with uniformed officers on some of the most notorious routes (I have a few here in Seattle I would nominate) plus plainclothes officers riding unannounced throughout the system. This seems to me like it would serve several purposes, as the officers could use the busses in some ways as substitutes for patrol vehicles (to check for broken windows, abandoned cars, careless criminal activity that isn't smart enough to get out of the way when a bus goes by, etc). Not to replace them, mind you, just to supplement them.

            Americans had a fundamental shift in their thinking when automobiles began to be affordable to the average Joe and Jane. We need to engineer a similar fundamental shift toward mass transit and alternative fuel. How to do that, is the $64 question.

            The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

            by Omir the Storyteller on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:14:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  can i ask you a question? (0+ / 0-)

              why does Seattle vote down mass transit solutions like the monorail and stuff?

              I read the Ride the SLUT campaign was mostly done to poke fun at Seattle's mass transit system. (And I supported it by buying 2 tshirts.)

              Central PA Kossacks Austin is a big greeeen fog. (-0.12, -3.33)

              by terrypinder on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:24:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's a really good question (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Creosote

                and one I don't entirely have an answer for, but here goes anyway.

                It's not like we don't try to get transportation initiatives going. The monorail measure actually passed, but a combination of missteps by the Monorail Board and continued opposition from anti-monorail forces eventually killed the project. In retrospect the original project wasn't as well thought through as it might have been, and opponents eventually convinced the electorate that we would get too little for too much money.

                Some of it is ideology, of a couple of different types. The first is the type that thinks transportation solutions are a Good Thing, as long as they add more roads and busses and don't try to build things like light rail and monorail. This to me is short-sighted and a short-term option at best. Another faction just plain doesn't want transit built. These people include everyone from a Bellevue-based real estate mogul who funds anti-transit campaigns, to initiative mill operator Tim Eyman who never met a public transportation project that he didn't like -- to defund and kill, that is. He was partially successful with his $30 car tab initiative about 10 years ago, which caused local transit agencies all over the place to do things like discontinue weekend service because the car tabs were funding public transit. Some are still recovering.

                There are those who think the regional Sound Transit agency, which operates inter-county bus and rail systems and is responsible for the light rail system that will go into operation next year, is too big and too bloated. Many of them don't like light rail on principle in spite of successes in places like Portland.

                Some of it is geography. If you look at a map of Seattle we are essentially two cities separated by the Lake Washington Ship Canal, with major population and employment centers across Lake Washington from Seattle. Any regional transportation plan has to take into account how to get busses, trains or monorails from one side of that water to the other; the alternative, routing people in North Seattle who want to go downtown all the way around Lake Washington through Kirkland, Redmond, Bellevue and Renton, is obviously not acceptable. The bridges are going to cost money, though, and there's a lot of debate over who is going to pay for them. Add to that that the floating bridges across Lake Washington are getting old and will soon be in need of replacement, and money has to be found for that. They're talking tolls, which obviously people don't like. Some are of the opinion that large employers like Microsoft and Boeing should help finance any plans to expand and replace the bridges, since in large measure those bridges are used by people in Seattle to get to jobs with those employers.

                Some of the more successful transit projects around here have been funded by private organizations, but they have their limitations. You already mentioned the SLUT, which was funded in part by Paul Allen as a way to get people to his proppsed "biotech village" at the south end of Lake Union. It only shuttles between Westlake and somewhere on south Lake Union, though. The Seattle Center monorail was installed for the 1962 Worlds Fair and is still operated by a private concern. Too bad it doesn't go anywhere. (Around here there's even a song and skit done at a local cabaret about the "Train To Nowhere.") And Microsoft has recently instituted its own Connector bus fleet to shuttle employees from areas with high densities of Microsoft employees to its Redmond campus.

                You'd think that Seattleites, living in a place with so much natural beauty and being such a primarily blue city -- maybe one of the bluest behind San Francisco -- would get behind campaigns to get people out of their cars and onto public transit, especially since we have something like the fourth worst traffic in the country. When the weather gets nasty or traffic really gets bad (e.g. when the Evergreen Point bridge is closed) I occasionally joke about my "four-hour commute" one way from Seattle to Redmond or vice versa. It's only partially a joke. And yet we're as in love with our cars as anyone anywhere else in the U S of A. Go figure.

                I don't know if I answered your question but I hope I gave you some idea of some of the factors involved.

                The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

                by Omir the Storyteller on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:08:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Good heavens, you can't wear your nice clothes (0+ / 0-)

              on the bus, your dainty shoes, or leave the house without thinking about what the weather will be like when you get back.

              Those in cars can count on preserving their image, apparently one of the most vital things in the world.

            •  i dunno (0+ / 0-)

              every time they add cars to the trains on the capitol corridor (an amtrak commuter train between sac and san jose) that runs through town, it's packed to the gills. buses in town are pretty full most of the time, although it varies by season (people don't bike when it rains). nearly all mass transit is doing fgar better in the past 4 years than before. when options exist, people use it, at least here in CA. even in LA, the metro has been very successful.

              seattle's a special kind of basketcase. i blame tim eyman, and the hangover of the frontier mentality. it's a crying shame that you guys still don't have decent commuter rail, much less that light rail system built yet. that tacoma beat seattle to the light rail punch is an exquisite sort of punking (i count myself as an honorary tacoman, having gone to school there in the 90s).

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:33:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It ain't the first time (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                wu ming

                Tacoma likes to get their digs in on Seattle whenever they can. It's been that way since the 1880s when James Hill passed Tacoma over for Seattle as the terminus of his railroad (Great Northern, I think, although it could have been the Northern Pacific). They even went so far as to try to get the USGS to rename Rainier Mount Tacoma.

                Me, I'm a Seattleite, but I like what little I see of Tacoma, mostly Point Defiance and the little bit of downtown we get to see when we go down every December for the Christmas Revels. The light rail system down there looks like a winner. You're absolutely right, it's too bad we can't get our act together up here to do something similar.

                The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

                by Omir the Storyteller on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:20:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  the name of rainier was originally tacoma (0+ / 0-)

                  or tahoma, in the language of the salish tribes in the area. not unlike wanting to rename mckinley as denali, up in alaska.

                  i have high hopes for puget sound getting its act together and knitting some decent mass transit together. the painful irony - similar to nearly everywhere else, los angeles and sacramento included - is that a century ago everything was connected by electric trams, streetcars and interurban rail lines and built to walkable levels of density, before the automobile and the conspiracies to tear up all the old rail in favor of gas-burning buses and cars.

                  i'm really excited that the light rail line to sea-tac is almost done. my in-laws live up in bellingham, and it'd be nice to do that trip from the airport without getting in a car. lane to light rail, light rail to rail, all the way up north.

                  surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                  by wu ming on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:36:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Pay others to do conserving for you. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rick Winrod, MacGumaraid

          We should push for Jimmy Carter's %0 cent per gallon tax rebated to income tax withholdings. We should sell it as those who need the gas will be paying others to do their conserving for them. It's really not much different from a "cap and trade" system for carbon emissions, except that this'll not only help cut pollution, it will ease congestion, cut oil imports, and provide mobility for the poor, elderly and disabled.

          I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

          by Judge Moonbox on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:30:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sold my car last year... (22+ / 0-)

        after 20 years in NYC, I actually prefer public transportation, as inconvenient as it can be.

        Now, though, I'm job-hunting, and it's going to be a bitch (can't work night shift, for example, because the buses don't run, and there's no subway here).

        Nevertheless, suburbs are wrong, I think, and public transportation is better for the common good.  So I don't regret being car-less; just wish there would be more of a movement toward cities and public transit, rather than the ill-conceived desire to pave over terrific arable land to build ticky-tacky houses with water-sucking lawns, etc.

        Just my 2 cents.

        Our economy is a house of cards. Don't breathe.

        by Youffraita on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:10:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I completely agree (9+ / 0-)

          I'm a college student right now, and I can't ever imagine living in a poorly-designed, sparse, unsustainable suburb.

          Not all suburbs are awful, but most "neighborhoods" built in the last 30 years rely solely on the premise that cul-de-sacs are the American Dream.

          I look forward to the day when we can work to convince Americans that it's a CHOICE to live in such places.  Only then will we get urban planners back to designing more common-sense communities.

          •  i don't know what part of the country you live in (5+ / 0-)

            but out in CA, the burbs are the only places even close to affordable, and that's only in an absurdly relativistic sense. it might make great sense to live in the city, but if housing's that high, you cannot but move further out, sustainable or no.

            until urban cores have much denser urban housing, people will get stuck living out in the suburbs. until gas prices get too much higher, where i guess they'll start living in their cars or urban parks.

            surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

            by wu ming on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:34:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Chicken and the egg problem... (7+ / 0-)

              ? Which came first? Well.. we did have a massive rail structure in this country with trains heading all over the nation, now the tracks rust with naught but freight hauling (and even that infrequently). Then we built the highway system, a massive public expenditure, gas was cheap and suburbs sprung up like weeds everywhere the new highways passed. Transport of all kinds moved to road, because of cheap gasoline coupled with a government willing (eager?) to promote short sighted individual transportation devices.

              Now gas is high and getting higher and we are stuck with homes more than an hour and a half away from the city in some places, If we act now though, building mass transit options can take a lot of the pressure off. Unfortunately the unwalkable unlivable gated community with no nearby market nearby to purchase every day needs may become the modern ghost town. Even if some enterprising person could build markets to service that need, they can't build the jobs.

              Maybe the new Grid technology (internet's successor) will help working at home become even more prevalent. If it can be deployed fast enough.

          •  You are a fool..... (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            godwhataklutz

            Travel around a bit before you start making such ridiculous judgements......go to the Oklahoma City metro area (including Edmond, Nichols Hills, Warr Acres, Midwest City Dell City and Moore) and figure out how you are going to cram well over million people within the relatively small OKC downtown area.

            And guess what?  They'll still have to fucking drive, its not like all business and industry is near the downtown area.  Its all over the fucking place.  I mean, I can never figure out what people like you are thinking, but MOST of the country is NOT laid out like NYC or Washington DC.  We do not have good public transportation and it is not practical to design a subway type system here.  To big, too much sprawl and you aren't going to undo whats been done over the past fifty years.

            GET REAL!

            •  Uneccesary personal attacks and cynical too (7+ / 0-)

              It's true that sensible urban/suburban design has sorely lacked for the last 50 years, but one way or another we have to start seeking solutions. The point of this diary is that we have to start designing some incentives into the system so that metro areas like OKC and hundreds of others have no choice but to "get real" with urban planning. There are solutions available if we commit to seek them.

              Your rant is perhaps accurate but certainly not helpful.

              •  The point of this diary..... (0+ / 0-)

                Is that some wealthy guy living in France is suggesting that the misery on middle class and poor americans should be increased.  I am hurting, millions like me are hurting and I really don't give a damn if I offend some rich elitist fuck who doesn't have a clue as to what is going on here.

                •  What's so miserable???? (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  A Siegel, JohnnyRook, Youffraita

                  The point of this diary.....
                  Is that some wealthy guy living in France is suggesting that the misery on middle class and poor americans should be increased.

                  Please explain, how is it miserable to have some alternative to the Big Oil monopoly? To subsidize American bus drivers instead of Petrodictators rolling back the steps towards democracy in Venezuela and Russia?

                  I really don't give a damn if I offend some rich elitist fuck who doesn't have a clue as to what is going on here.

                  I don't understand, how is the Bush/Cheney administration going to be offended by your opposition to calls for energy conservation???

                  I am not rich.

                  I am not elitist.

                  You have offended me.

                  "How do you like them apples??"

                  I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

                  by Judge Moonbox on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:58:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

                  lacking any better ideas, I guess we can always open the ANWLP to drilling, as well as the coasts off Florida and the east coast so you can have your cheap gas and don't have to make any inconvenient changes to your lifestyle since you're hurting so bad.

                  But you know something?  I don't think anything we can do is going to bring prices down to what you feel you're entitled to.

                  Again, If we're going to have higher prices anyway, I'd rather my money stays in this contry rather than to OPEC.

                  Myself, I have cut back on my driving, and gas mileage will be the foremost criteria in my next vehicle purchase.

                  "But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." Thomas Jefferson

                  by PerryA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:05:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  The point of this diary ... (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Creosote, NoMoreLies, Youffraita

                  is that someone who is highly knowledgeable about  the implications of Peak Oil and its threats to a functioning world society is terrified for the implications of the disastrous path we are headed on for the life of his (partially) disabled son and his children.  

                  The point of this diary is that oil (and gasoline) prices are going higher (no matter what you wish) and that we (writ large, United States) have a choice about whether some of that increase stays in the United States to foster a stronger society or not.

                  The point of this diary is to foster a discussion about a more sensible energy future ...

                  You have been rude and offensive throughout these diaries.

                  In the 1990s, when oil was $20/barrel, there was an effort to institute a very small BtU tax, a tax that might have helped foster a path toward lower energy use among all of us.  No, it would hurt too much ...

                  Today, oil is $115/barrel & gasoline is ranging above $3.50 for most of us. It is too painful to insitute this policy today ...

                  What will you say when oil is $200 / barrel?

                  What do you say about the future economic prospects for your children? For the world that we are creating for them (and ourselves) through ever increasing burning of fossil fuels.

                  No, your outrage is at the "elitists" in "New York" and on the "East Coast".

                  Nothing for the Republican Party leadership that helped you / us / US dig the hole so deep by fighting tooth-and-nail every effort at sensible energy policy?

                  No, your rage is saved for 'frog' Jerome who, to remind, happens to have been right years ago (as he reminded in this diary) about what was going to happen with gasoline and oil prices.  Hmmm ... he is telling you that it is going to get far worse.  Want to bet that he is wrong?

                  If not, what is your proposal / thought for a better energy policy other than rants against 'elitists' from the coasts or, outrage of outrages, from France?

                •  calling me a rich elitist fuck (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  CA JAY, Youffraita
                  is just shooting the messenger, and is rather rude...
              •  And..... (0+ / 0-)

                My city of Oklahoma City has revitalized its downtown area.  Many new apartments have sprung up and many young couples and singles who work downtown are enjoying these apartments.

                But, not all the work is in the downtown area, in fact I would speculate that not even a quarter of the jobs are downtown.  And people with families don't want to live in apartments, downtown or otherwise.

                I've pretty much had it with elitist types (and I don't use that work lightly or often) who are wealthy and live in places like NYC passing judgement on the rest of us.

                You aren't going to change much the metro areas are pretty much set.  Subways or commuter rail are impractical for areas like mine.  Many people live relatively close to work.  My spouse drives about six miles to work.

                •  You certainly don't use the phrase correctly. (0+ / 0-)

                  I've pretty much had it with elitist types (and I don't use that work lightly or often) who are wealthy

                  Here's the picture: Conrad Hilton has a good idea, he's going to build a lot of hotels. People like his idea, and they pay a lot of money to stay at his hotels. He pays his taxes, and invests some of the aftertax income to build more hotels. He pays construction workers to build them and desk clerks and maids to run them; and they pay their taxes.

                  If I may telescope a generation or two, Paris Hilton troubles herself to be born in a rich family. The Republicans expect us to think that assessing her inheritance on the same scale as the little people is "double taxation."

                  Can you name 10 proposals that, taken together, are as elitist as the Republicans trying to repeal the Estate Tax?

                  If you want us to respect your argument, speak English. Don't misuse words by the Grandeur Oldness Party's pretzel dictionary.

                  I will believe you've had it with wealthy elitists when you show that you understand what the words mean. Not one second sooner.

                  I'm not asking you to take the country back, I'm asking you to take it forward-Van Jones.

                  by Judge Moonbox on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:08:03 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Elitist? (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Creosote, A Siegel, Youffraita

                  As an ex-New Yorker, I've pretty much had it with people who think the whole freaking city is wealthy. The Bronx is, in absolute terms, one of the half-dozen poorest counties in the country. The larger parts of Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island are at best middle class. It's not just recent college graduates who end up living four to a tiny studio apartment, but many hundreds of thousands of recent immigrants living in similarly packed quarters.

                  So maybe you can put up with some hardship, even in Oklahoma City, as you rebuild your town into something that can be viable in the decades ahead, as the oil runs out. Buy your spouse a bicycle. The majority of people in NYC suffer to live there. There are great compromises and sacrifices required for all but the few very wealthy at the top. If Oklahoma City is worth - really worth - living in, stop whining and start selecting your sacrifices.

            •  I'm forced to work near Boston (0+ / 0-)

              and it's almost retarded how the business vs residential districts are laid out.  If you were going to design a metropolitan area with (as you mention) close to a million residents, what would it look like?  My guess is that there would be a mostly residential inner city, with a belt of businesses surrounding it.  Folks who want a rural lifestyle live outside the industrial belt, and probably need a car to get to work.  Folks who want an urban lifestyle live within the belt, and can probably take mass transit to work.
              But where are the businesses located?  In the center!  Or maybe scattered outside.  It's the worst of all possible worlds!

              Don't be a DON'T-DO... Be a DO-DO!

              by godwhataklutz on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:52:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I haven't owned a car in 20+ years (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Youffraita

          It's not so bad once you decide you're going to not own a car no matter what, and you just adapt your life to that choice.

          I'm not necessarily anti-car. People often offer me rides, which become more welcome as time goes on and my body gets creakier. But I am still anti me having a car.

          The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

          by Omir the Storyteller on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:19:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  hey me too! (0+ / 0-)

            i'm not anti-car. just anti-ME owning a car.

            plus i've found people like having someone to run errands with anyway. they can have someone to talk to and stuff. plus it makes grocery shopping fun.

            Central PA Kossacks Austin is a big greeeen fog. (-0.12, -3.33)

            by terrypinder on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:21:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Never have owned a car. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Omir the Storyteller

            Lived in NYC till 1973; after that had a choice: save for a car or for
            a house with land to garden.

            But up to now, one has been made to pay, I think, in a restricted social life,
            and no doubt a perception of eccentricity.

            •  Eccentricity is the least of my worries (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Creosote, Youffraita

              I mean, I play the banjo for crying out loud.

              In the 80s it was a simple equation. We could keep a car in fuel, repairs, insurance and taxes; or we could house and feed a family of five. Once the choice was put to us that way, living in a car with no food seemed like a really bad idea. Maybe we could afford a car now, but every time we think about maybe getting one, we look at the price of gas, or hear a story about someone who just had to have some minor repair done to their car that cost $500, and suddenly public transportation sounds like a lot better deal again.

              The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -- Ambassador Kosh

              by Omir the Storyteller on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:31:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The factors in your decision are the same (0+ / 0-)

                as the ones in mine, minus the other four persons I seem to be missing.

                Personally I think I see changes in day-to-day society faster and more clearly
                from the sidewalk and across the bus aisle. It's good to be able to talk to people,
                there and here.

                Banjo must make it even more lively!

      •  Jerome, here's why it won't happen. (17+ / 0-)

        Nowhere in the MSM, or out of any nationally-known politician's mouth, have I ever once heard the term "peak oil".  Maybe somebody else has, but I haven't.  All I've got are books and what's on the Web.

        Barack Obama is turning up his dials on the energy issue, and I get the sense that he "gets it" but that he knows he has to break this to us gently.  I've heard him start talking about rebuilding the railroads and increasing public transportation in his last couple speeches, and he's beginning to work in lines about how "it's not going to be painless".

        The American people--as I know you know from having read your other columns--are not ready for this.  They're not just not physically ready; they're not mentally or psychologically ready.  That's why he has to do it this way.  If he were to come right out with the full monty, they'd crucify him as an "alarmist".

        It's going to take $10/gallon and/or gas lines to wake them up...and/or the MSM suddenly deciding to do their jobs and alert the American people to something trivial like the possible end of civilization as we know it (but we know THAT ain't gonna happen, don't we?).

        Of course, $10/gallon might just wake them up to the point of social disintegration...but it looks like we're gonna be taking that chance, I guess, unless Obama gets elected and suddenly "discovers" peak oil.  I don't think that is an impossibility, and it has also occurred to me that this is why he has such a sense of "the fierce urgency of now".

        So thusly do I hope, anyway.

        "The thought of McCain being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me." --Thad Cochran

        by Initiate Plan B on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:18:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They're ready for the alternatives (11+ / 0-)

          Ridership on trains here in California - from LA light rail to Amtrak California's intercity routes - is soaring. Even buses are seeing increased ridership.

          In Utah the FrontRunner commuter rail system opened from Ogden to Salt Lake City a few weeks back. Its trains are packed. If you build it they will come.

          What is lacking is the will to fund expansion of these alternatives.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
          Neither is California High Speed Rail

          by eugene on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:28:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Unfortunately, I suspect you are right (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sd4david, Rick Winrod

          I am pessemistic about by fellow Americans (enough of them anyway) really waking up to how critical the situation is.  That is one reason why I'm shuffling around my real investments so that my residence is completely paid for, has enough solar panels to power itself, and a greenhouse for growing food.

          Treasure each day like it will be your last, but treat the earth like you will live forever. -me

          by protothad on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:34:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  alternative or a supplement to the gas tax (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sd4david, Rick Winrod, PixyStyx

          If we want the marketplace to change we have to give it some incentive.
          I propose an increase in the registration fee for every vehicle that makes less than 15 MPG.
          $500 per mile under per year. This will hit the hummer drivers first instead of the poor commuters.
          We then raise the mpg standard quickly enough to force people to buy better MPG cars
          This will provide a market for the auto makers to provide cars that will be ahead of the fee increase and it will eliminate the most wasteful vehicles from the inventory

          I don't hit. But I do hit back

          by mcgee85 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:25:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  $10/Gal not that far away (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Creosote, Pluto, Judge Moonbox

          it's already $8/gal in Sweden.

          Excellent comment (and Moniker!), Plan B.

          GWOT - Global War on Terra(-firma) - Bush's War on the Planet.

          by grndrush on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:41:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The Governor of New York (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          DemocraticLuntz

          He's been talking about peak oil, seriously, for years.

        •  Does Bill Clinton count? (0+ / 0-)

          Nowhere in the MSM, or out of any nationally-known politician's mouth, have I ever once heard the term "peak oil".

          Bill Clinton acknowledges peak oil

             Clinton said a "significant number of petroleum geologists" have warned that the world could be nearing the peak in oil production.

          Clinton suggested that at current consumption rates (now more than 30 billion barrels per year, according to the International Energy Agency), the world could be out of "recoverable oil" in 35 to 50 years, elevating the risk of "resource-based wars of all kinds".

          He's read Simmons' Twilight in the Desert and Heinberg's The Party's Over.

          "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." - Kenneth Boulding, economist

          by randym77 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:55:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Great! (0+ / 0-)

            Sadly, he mentioned it at a no-name convention, and acting like the REAL problem is 35 to 50 years out is worse than not saying anything at all, IMHO.

            But, as you note, I do stand corrected. =)

            Now I KNOW that the gas-tax thing is a total pander and Hillary knows exactly what a bad idea it is.

            "The thought of McCain being president sends a cold chill down my spine. He is erratic. He is hotheaded. He loses his temper and he worries me." --Thad Cochran

            by Initiate Plan B on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:36:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well (0+ / 0-)

              I think it's possible to be peak oil aware and support a temporary tax holiday.  Give people a little break at the pumps...with the warning that it's temporary.  She's pairing it with plans to lower gas consumption in the future.

              Actually, now that I think about it, someone who is truly peak oil aware should support eliminating the gas tax permanently.  It's what pays for our roads and bridges.  No roads, no driving.  Goodbye happy motoring!  >:-)

              "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist." - Kenneth Boulding, economist

              by randym77 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 04:36:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Nuance--not so easy? (0+ / 0-)

        I cringe every time I hear someone talk about oil companies, at least, almost every time ;)

        Plus, he knows what crapped out means, which will help him explain his condition on the morning of November 5 - PBCliberal

        by Nulwee on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:50:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  See Elizabeth Kolbert's piece in the New Yorker (0+ / 0-)

        on the Alberta Oil Sands - "Unconventional Crude" (November 12, 2007, pp. 46-51).

        It can take a half-barrel of oil to produce a barrel, but that oil is already heating homes along the front range of the Rockies and warming the hearts of pro-business people. Particularly here in the PNW, because the sands are only 90 minutes away by plane and nearly every variety of support materiel can be supplied from Seattle.

        Extraction method? Boil the sand to release the oil. So then you have massive quanties of intensely polluted water - and correspondingly increasing, serious health problems.

        Meanwhile the Sands area is in full boomtown mode, with oil workers being sought everywhere, including from Venezuela.

    •  Idiotic nonsense (8+ / 1-)

      Hey Jerome, you must be to young to remer this thing we had once called a Windfall Profits Tax.

      Look it up.  It was Carter's idea.  Remember him?  

      Quit blaming the victim here and making us all look like a bunch of elitist jerks.

    •  Bravo, comme toujours, Jerome (13+ / 0-)

      I am in complete agreement with you.  The citizens of the US will not take conservation and/or development of alternative energy seriously until it REALLY hits them in the pocketbook.  And you are absolutely correct - the cost is going to go up regardless.  What we should have been doing for the last 30+ years is increasing the gas tax and using those funds to support existing public transportation systems and creating new, efficients means of transportation and developing green technologies.

      The energy chickens are coming home to roost due to greed, neglect and willful ignorance on America's part.  We are in for a long, difficult and financially tight time.  It will be painful, but if we have the WILL to address it head on, then we will come out the other side a little bruised but better off in the long run.

      This is not a time for a candidate who will offend no one; it is time for a candidate who takes clear stands and kicks ass - Molly Ivins

      by TigerMom on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:16:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's kind of sad (10+ / 0-)

      How folks here are trying to argue with you about whether it's "politically possible" - a point you agree with them on - instead of trying to figure out what needs to be done to make it politically possible.

      The problem with Daily Kos, in a nutshell, right here. Folks want to argue about why we can't do something instead of what we can do to make it happen.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:25:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and (5+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        eugene, gaianne, Creosote, Caesura, esquimaux

        as if politically possible was some kind of magic wand.

        Political possibility is pushing on a string called peak oil. Actually its not so much a string as a whip, and the crack is coming.

        It may be politically possible to hear the fucker whistling in or it may be politically preferable to stick your fingers in your ears and shout LALALALALA!!!!! very loudly, but the lash across your back isn't listening.

        The Number of the Beast 78-22

        by Deep Dark on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:33:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Getting kicked by a mule is fine,.. (0+ / 0-)

          as long as you learn from your mistake.  There's no lesson in getting kicked twice, you're just a dumb ass

          A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem.- Albert Einstein

          by bldr on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:25:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I agree that (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Creosote

        we should do what we can to make this politically possible.

        Do you agree that until it is politically possible, it is not yet "time to increase it"?

        Getting people to vote for broccoli over ice cream is hard.  I am not willing to lose the election over this now, and this paints a target on our collective chest.

        Now: what we should be thinking about is having the government just up and buy hybrids, or some similar and perhaps better technology, for the citizens, paid for by such an increase.  Then maybe this could sell -- if the public understands concepts like economies of scale in manufacturing, and the need to ensure demand before supply of some items will be locked in, concepts that I don't think Principal Bush put on the test.

        John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

        by Seneca Doane on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:36:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I tend to be in the camp (6+ / 0-)

      that believes people wish to live in fantasy land and that we're truly fucked... about 50% of the time.

      For example, Reverend Wright noticed that people attack us because we do some seriously bad shit in the world. And he "had to be" denounced. That's exhibit A for where telling the truth is verboten.

      Perhaps in France self-awareness is possible.

  •  not happening in an election year (9+ / 0-)

    forget it until next year.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by DemFromCT on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:13:32 PM PDT