Daily Kos

Truth Versus Reconciliation

Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:59:09 PM PDT

The following post contains mild spoilers for the film "Forgetting Sarah Marshall".

There is a scene in the (very entertaining) film Forgetting Sarah Marshall where the protagonist, played by Jason Segel, is dismayed to learn that his ex-girlfriend, played by Kristen Bell with whom he is on the verge of reconciling with, did not merely leave him for another man but had been carrying on a secret affair with him for a year.  This obviously puts their reconciliation on hold.

This reminded me of something I  find to be an interesting question.  In all aspects of human affairs, the question of truth versus reconciliation often presents itself.  Nearly all people, all groups, and all nations are guilty of numerous transgressions both in history and in the present.  And many, if not most, of those transgressions are unknown; like Sarah Marshall, people, groups and nations will attempt to conceal the bad things they have done.

The problem is this: the truth about these things generally makes reconciliation more difficult.  In the movie, this is presented as a good thing: Bell is supposed to be not only someone who wronged Segel, but an inferior mate for him than Mila Kunis' character, a hotel hospitality worker.

But outside of the logic of the movies, I'm not sure I agree.  Sure, Bell cheated, and for that matter, dumped poor Segel.  But as the movie makes clear, she did so with a fair amount of reason.  Segel's character is another in producer Judd Apatow's long list of man-children, a composer who spends most of his time lounging on the couch in sweat pants eatings mixing bowls of Fruit Loops.  But more than that, Segel is someone who feels diminished by his girlfriend's success, bitter as he is relegated to holding her purse just outside camera range as she walks the red carpet.  Meanwhile, despite the different level of success she has achieved while he has stagnated on the couch, she confesses to having spent scads of valuable time and money going to therapists and others to try to figure out what more she can do to help him and their relationship.  Besides her infidelity, the main complaint that Segel has about Bell is that his stepbrother feels that she felt she was "slumming" when they went over to visit.

The reaction, however, of both the person I went to the movie with and of several of my friends was that Kunis is much prettier than Bell, so they knew that she was the right girl for him.

That and the infidelity is sufficient in movie language to communicate who is really better for Segel.  But I remain unconvinced.  Maybe it is something broken in me which believes this, but I think that years of actual love and commitment ought to count for something.  A lot of something.

But it brings up a question which I think has important implications beyond merely the movie or relationships in general.  Is the truth always the most important thing?  Is it more important than reconciliation?

It is a natural impulse to feel that everyone ought to be punished for their misdeeds.  But punishing people for what they did wrong tends to come with hidden costs, or what economists would call "externalities".  Bell's character deserves to be punished for her cheating.  But she also deserves credit for years of loving him despite being neglected, and more to the point, Segel's character deserves to be with someone who truly loves him.

Which leads to the question of what is truly better, seeking truth no matter the consequences, or seeking reconciliation, even if reconciliation bears a cost paid in truth.  President Paul Kagame of Rwanda is an example of sacrificing some truth (and justice) in exchange for reconciliation; he implemented a policy where rather than punishing most of the Hutus who participated in the 1994 genocide of the Tutsi minority, the government encourages confession and forgiveness.

This conflict is also illustrated by the difference of sentiment between Barack Obama and his former preacher, Jeremiah Wright.  The message of Wright, grossly simplified, is that the need to expose the truths of the massive historical bad behavior of the United States is paramount.  Obama's message counters that the opportunity for reconciliation, healing, and progress beyond the wrongs of the past overwhelms the need to seek the truth and to obtain justice for those sins.

Truth and justice are very important things.  Like all of you, I am angry at the lack of truth about and the utter disinterest by those in power to even pursue justice for the known and unknown crimes of the American government of the past eight years.

But I also see the great harm that too much truth unleavened can wreak.  There is no shortage of truth about the horrors committed in the names of both the Israelis and the Palestinians.  Yet that truth is so great that no real justice is possible; when decades of military occupation, colonization, terrorism, and religious and ethnic hatred exist, most rational people believe that finding a way to reconcile is of greater import than uncovering every wrong and punishing every sinner.  At the end of the day, it seems obvious that reconciliation will do those peoples more good than any amount of truth.

There is no shame in forgiveness.  We do not diminish ourselves by admitting that those we love or those with whom we share the world have feet of clay, any more than our ability to recognize that we ourselves fail and sin sometimes lessens us.  And while I think that is an insight that might well be beyond a simple romantic comedy (although not beyond the scope of a superior TV show), it is one which those of us who consider how best to be involved citizens of a democratic Republic ought to give some thought.

Tags: Forgetting Sarah Marshall, romance, Rwanda, Paul Kagame, I-P, Barack Obama, Jeremiah Wright (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

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  •  Thank you for reading (20+ / 0-)

    Have a wonderful week.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:59:34 PM PDT

  •  Jay, can you apply (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Jay Elias

    this well-spoken diary to IP? Not that there should be something more to fight about on DK, but when I read  your diary title I thought, "Hmmm. Reconcilliation. I like that."

    Recommended.

    Mal: "This is the captain. We have a little problem with our entry sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and then explode."

    by crose on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:09:14 PM PDT

    •  I do a bit... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dems2004

      ...I'm not sure how much more detailed an application of this thought to I/P is wise, however.  Too much "truth" in the writing pretty much determines the conclusion.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:14:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Truth is overvalued.... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, bronte17, Jay Elias

    in interpersonal situations.  It's an artifact of the sixties, when tact was considered "inauthentic" and if one was honest, then that's all that mattered.

    Wrong.

    Sometimes we allow illusions to endure out of kindness, and mutual respect.  Yeah, if someone is hurting themselves, the truth can be valuable, but for characteristics that can't be changed, let it go.
    ------
    Questions of state are a different discussion.  South Africa chose "truth and reconciliation" rather than retribution for the injustices of Aparthheid, and it seems to have been a wise choice.

    And there are national myths of most countries, that in some ways hold a society together.  This is a big subject.  Glad you brought it up, but the answer should keep you occupied for a few decades.

    •  The 60's Was the Only Period of Industrialized (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      arodb

      civilization when large numbers of people felt almost equal. The high water mark of the American middle class.

      Closest we've come since agriculture to the meritocracy of the hunter-gatherer life we lived for 4 million years previously.

      The behavioral instructions of Jesus --apart from his philosophy-- are pretty much insane for any society advanced enough to have agriculture, much less trade and mass communication.

      But they're a survival manual if you're in a lifeboat.

      Underneath most of our mythology is the life we evolved for over scores of thousands of years.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:46:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Where is contrition? Where is reparation? (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, jlynne, Jay Elias, pico

    In my view what Obama advocates, by going along with the pundit class and denouncing Reverend Wright, isn't forgiveness, it's amnesia. Reverend Wright wasn't supposed to speak of the sins! That is verboten!

    You cannot have real reconciliation without contrition and without some attempt at reparation.

    This country murdered millions of Vietnamese, and then reneged on the reparations. Most of the people who were guilty of starting that war went on to positions of wealth, power, and luxury. It isn't unreasonable to expect them to make some effort to help the survivors of the carnage they unleashed... but no help was offered! One of our candidates for President admitted (to 60 Minutes) that he's a war criminal who bombed innocent civilians. What has he done to earn forgiveness? Has he ever expressed sorrow for what he participated in? Has he tried to do something for the survivors? On the contrary! He still calls "them" "Gooks" and expresses hatred and contempt (even though he likely would have drowned without the help of people he was trying to kill).

    The same is true of BushCo. They will retire to a luxurious life after all of their criminality, after causing the deaths of more than one million human beings, and the immiseration of countless millions more. They will never apologize.

    There is shame in the kind of forgiveness that says that's okay, because what we're really doing is just pretending it never happened or that nothing was wrong with these great crimes.

    When Obama comes out in favor of the other kind of forgiveness, that would be something noteworthy. Until then the talk of reconciliation is just empty words that are quite easy for the guilty (that would be us) to speak.

    •  I think that it is an interesting question... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tiggers thotful spot, Dems2004

      ...as to what kind of reconciliation Obama advocates (I don't think the answer is easily found in stump speeches), but you bring up an important point.

      That being said, while contrition is something that we can all afford in plenty, there is a severe limit to the potential both for reparation, and for the potential of reparation to really achieve reconciliation.  This is of course merely one limited example, but I don't see how affirmative action, a policy which is intended to have some reparative value, has really achieved any reconciliation at all.  Indeed, over the course of affirmative action, it would seem to me that both sides positions have hardened towards one another.

      Meanwhile, I find the premise that we are guilty while they are innocent to be faulty.  We are guilty, but our guilt is hardly unique or special.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:05:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think Obama (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Dems2004, Jay Elias

        would be permitted to speak of reconciliation in any real sense and still win. I wonder what he would say about these things in a private moment.

        The reason I think affirmative action didn't work as reconciliation is that the economic agenda of the civil rights movement was almost completely ignored, thereby pitting the white working class against the black working class, as both groups have really been taking it on the chin from the widening gap between rich and poor. The march on Washington in 1963 was the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. We forget the "jobs" part. There was an economic agenda there that was just as important to making America work for all.

        I also think it's fair to assign to us the lions share of guilt for Vietnam and Iraq. The Nuremberg judgement is quite clear about aggression, and we have no trouble recognizing it when others do it.

        In my view our guilt is unique but only because our collective size and wealth and power is unique. Other nations would perhaps be equally guilty, if they had the power. [Although the Danes would probably behave a lot better if they were the sole superpower!] In the words of Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility, or something like that.

        For example, my friends complain to me that we're gonna end up spending a trillion or three on the Iraq war. Let's take 1 trillion just to be conservative. For Iraq, that's over 12 years of their entire nation's production of wealth. We could literally have written a check to every Iraqi for 10 years of their salary and saved money, compared to what it costs us to kill them. Size matters. They have trouble finding clean running water, while we can send warplanes halfway round the globe to drop bombs on them in the middle of the night.

        •  My contention regarding the non-uniqueness... (0+ / 0-)

          ...of our guilt is based in the notion that generally speaking, there is no such thing as a well-behaved superpower.  Russia, Britain, France, and China are all still superpowers; not one of those nations is currently well-behaved.  Neither has there ever been a historical example of a well-behaved superpower.

          Having the power to act badly is the most certain indicator of bad acting.  We are not unique in the sense that no other nation that could potentially send warplanes around the world to bomb the poor has ever not done so.  Indeed, as soon as anyone else gains that ability, I predict they will do the same.

          As for the Danes, I suppose it matters which ones were in charge.  I would wager that there are several Danish cartoonists who wouldn't be so swell at running the world.

          The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

          by Jay Elias on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:31:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Find a Non-Insane Communication Environment (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      tiggers thotful spot

      for Obama to speak in, spend the money to relocate him there, and I promise I'll listen to what he says, examining all his statements for logical consistency.

      This country is structurally insane. IN FUCKING SANE.

      He's trying to move it a few inches back from the edge of Niagara Falls.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:49:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The one problem with this, (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, bronte17, jlynne, alizard, Jay Elias

    at least as applied to relationships, is that untruths only get more toxic over time.  An infidelity the morning after is bad; an infidelity discovered years down the road is much, much worse.  People who find out they've been lied to over time tend to factor the length of time into their level of outrage, which is understandable.

    But, human interaction is messy and complicated.  And I totally agree that there are times when the untruth is more tactful than the truth.  Sometimes I'll say "Yeah, that dress looks nice on you", and bury the truth under a smile.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:37:41 PM PDT

    •  Sure... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, pico

      ...and I know that I'm using truth as something of an analogue to "truth, with consequences".

      As I mentioned, there is no shame in forgiveness.  It might be important to know that your mate had an affair, as a method of being able to forgive them for it.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:58:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  "best diary that I disagree with" :-) (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Dems2004, Jay Elias, pico, NonnyO

    Which leads to the question of what is truly better, seeking truth no matter the consequences, or seeking reconciliation, even if reconciliation bears a cost paid in truth.  

    Must it be either or?  I don't think so.  Justice or reconciliation is, I think, the question you are really asking.

    Truth is a very different thing from justice, and, imo, more important.  Reconciliation may be had at the expense of justice, but reconciliation at the expense of truth merely invites a greater disaster, with even worse consequences, when the truth comes out. . . . as in your movie.  

    Steny Hoyer = a slam dunk argument for term limits

    by jlynne on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:43:31 PM PDT

    •  I don't think it has to be either or... (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dems2004, jlynne

      ...but I do think that we need to ask which is more important.

      And of course, the answer depends a lot on the situation.  But I would suggest that going in either direction in an unlimited fashion probably won't help anyone much.

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:00:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Comment (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Lefty Mama, Jay Elias, pico

    Is the truth always the most important thing?  Is it more important than reconciliation?

    I would counter what others have said. I think reconciliation is more important in everyday affairs, such as interpersonal relationships. I am not one to shy away from a fight, but if nothing else, the years have taught me to choose my battles well.

    Between people, such as my partner and I, I believe there are many instances where the absolute truth is not useful, and serves to only unnecessarily clutter up a hectic and purposeful life. This is where choosing ones battles also applies. If my partner asks me, "Does this dress make me look fat?", I think we all know what the smart answer is there. The truthful answer would lead to an argument that serves no purpose.

    Wow, it's late, and I am semi-lucid. Who'd a thunk?

    •  There is a part of this... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Dems2004

      ...which is really just my own meditation on my own messy personal life (which does not involve infidelity on the part of anyone).

      The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

      by Jay Elias on Sun May 04, 2008 at 11:10:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  After Having Been (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        bronte17, Jay Elias

        the 'victim' of infidelity, not known until after the divorce was set, I can tell you that it is not something I would wish on anyone.

        I am an uncomfortable truth teller. There isn't a week that goes by that someone (usually having to do with politics) doesn't ask me to sugar-coat or pretend the truth is not what it is.

        My life is a lot better now than it was 10 years ago. And I don't mean that in a 'are you better off' sense. After being divorced, I lost my job and became homeless. So I am really grateful for my somewhat messy life. It beats the hell out of what it was.

  •  Confusing the personal with the political (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jay Elias

    can be troublesome.  While the interpersonal tension may be between truth and reconciliation, the political also involves justice.  The Ford pardon resulted in none of the above: no truth, no justice and boy do I remember how reconciled the Republican party was with the Democrats: they promptly started the Reagan revolution. (It was RR's speech at the '76 convention that put him on the national candidate trajectory.)  

    In the political world, it is truth that matters more than either justice or reconciliation, because unlike personal lives, wherein a considerable amount exits the world with us when we go, relatively little ever exits the political world.  

    The concealers of truths invent further deceptions and self-deceptions and exceptionalisms. And they pass those deceptions on to their heirs. Young Dick Cheney learns that you can participate in treason and get away with it. They pass this on to Oliver North, who passes it on to John Yoo.  

    All because it never surfaced that Nixon and his acolytes betrayed the fundamentals of democracy: they acted as if their winning was more important than law or fairness or democracy... as if the opposing party were not fellow citizens, but such a dangerous enemy that all means were justified. And because the true list of betrayals and betrayers of the Nixon (and Reagan) years has never become popularly understood and accepted truth, we are where we are today, with a well-established social norm that the truth is politically unpalatable and therefore must be ignored, with it apparently acceptable to bring into government known conspirators in past governmental crimes, just so long as they aren't techically felons.

    The aphorism is that the truth shall make you free, not that the truth shall make you sleep well.  The problem is that the aphorism is transitive: lack of the truth leaves us enchained.

    •  In the Political World There Exists Force (0+ / 0-)

      and absolutely, positively nothing else.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:50:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Truth (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jay Elias

    We need the truth about Georgie and Dickie and their corporate cronies more than anything.  All of the nasty, brutal truth, no matter what it is.

    As things stand right now, this minute, truth will never come out - at least not while they are alive, and perhaps not until their children and grandchildren are dead, perhaps a century from now.  One of Georgie's first executive orders sealed the presidential and vice-presidential papers during their lifetimes and they cannot be released without the authorization of descendants/family (that, I'm quite sure, was done to protect his father for Iran-Contra years, among other things).  Unless that executive order is rescinded and a future president makes a new executive order unsealing those papers, that's the end of truth as we know it from any president or vice president, ever (not to mention those mysteriously "lost" emails that would likely uncover more lies and treason and high crimes and misdemeanors and war crimes).  Our government will be run on lies, lies, and more lies in the future, no matter who the president is.  Who, in any other country would trust the leaders of the US ever again?

    Without the truth, there is no justice, no way to reconcile their lies and their war crimes.  If there is no truth, how can forgiveness be given?  How can lies and war crimes be forgiven if we do not know the truth?

    We know what the truth is; we know the lies and they've been deconstructed over the years.  Bloggers have uncovered more lies and war crimes than our Congress Critters have ever mentioned.  Since our Congress Critters are unwilling to start impeachment proceedings or war crimes trials, they become accomplices to the lies and war crimes of Dickie and Georgie.

    Since the SCOTUS decision of December 2000, this nation has been set on a path of ever-increasing dangerous precedents and down the path of serial dictatorship on the part of our "leaders" - the political party affiliation makes no difference at this point.  Whether or not those "elected" dictators are benevolent or destructive remains to be seen.  We won't know the truth in our lifetimes, I believe.

    (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯)

    by NonnyO on Mon May 05, 2008 at 03:14:25 AM PDT

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