Daily Kos

The cost of trying to be energy 'independent'

Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:19:31 PM PDT

I want to first thank gmoke  for an amazing diary, it inspired me to finally write my first.I also want to agree with him that energy independence at an individual level is achievable and preferable in places like the Midwest where wind or solar are readily available, relatively cost effective, and where extending grids to individual households over the vast distances is just using up valuable resources. However, as he and other posters note, human demographics simply do NOT operate in that way.  Energy independence is a misleading farce, and read my diary to see more about why.

Human beings, as a species, tend to live in massive urban and suburban developments which are compressed to such a degree that the most productive alternative energy sources cannot operate at the scale needed to supply them with energy. In 2007, the UN Population Fund  predicted that at some point during this year more than half of humanity will be urban. As of  a 2005 study that would mean that 50% of the world's population lives on 3-5% (allowing for a few years increase) of our landmass. Without some major breakthroughs in energy, that will not be sustainable in the long term by primarily using our current nonrenewable resources of coal, gas, and oil.

Also of note about the "mythology of energy independence," and only lightly touched on in gmoke's diary, is the fact that though the ability to be energy independent remains plausible (yet, probably not possible), were we to somehow implement this pipe dream the costs would be enormous. It is simply much much cheaper to take energy producing resources from places like Nigeria, Brazil, Venezuela, Saudia Arabia, Australia, or Canada than to rely solely on oil, natural gas, or even uranium from home. That does not mean I am denouncing energy independence for monetary reasons, I'm just tossing that factoid on the bonfire of preposterous assumptions that go up in smoke upon closer inspection.

We do, however, possess a substantial amount of world coal reserves (around 25%). The problem is that coal is, by far, the dirtiest fuel and will remain so until someone gets Carbon Capture to actually work, and according to MIT we have been working on it since 1981 with no silver bullet yet. Even when this technology is proven and ready to reproduce on a large scale, I am actually very much against this technology because it provides a makeshift solution whose long term consequences we have no way of gaging. Basically, we pump CO2 into old coal mines, empty oil fields, or large salt deposits/caverns below ground. If we seal these wrong, or they rupture for one reason or another, or they result in unstable geography above ground then we won't know until it is too late.

I was listening to NPR recently and heard a REALLY great interview with a scientist working at Michigan University who had created a breed of corn where the STALKS could be made to hold large quantities of energy rich cellulose. The benefits of this are obvious, we get to keep the corn kernels for food and use the exact same plant for the production of biofuels without affecting the world's food supplies. The way the corn does this is it is encouraged, through an enzyme from a cow's stomach to fill the plant cell's vacuoles (think of them as garbage bins for plant cells) with the woody element.

Anyways, stuff like that new breed of corn are more likely to be the answer than anything we currently utilize. I think cellulose biofuels, like switch grass which Obama does promote, really do look promising. But, I absolutely agree with the man gmoke quotes throughout his diary in that funding of alternative fuels research must be encouraged in all directions, and no winner should be chosen by the government. Holding up the illusion of 'energy independence' is distracting, and does not move the country towards taking real action on climate change or the depletion of our current sources of energy. It is the same as saying "let's keep being the most energy intensive [per capita] country in the world, so long as we [magically] only have to plunder our own natural resources."

These resources are finite. For instance, little attention is paid to water supplies but they are an intricate part of feeding and maintaining the booming population of this planet, and this nation. There are some really great reports out there, of which this is one. So if we can't be independent, and we cannot continue to increase consumption of these finite resources at this rate then what do we do? We need to promote realistic goals that address real problems, and not lead us towards fallacies such as 'energy independence.'

We need to call out our leaders who hold developing countries hostage to lock-outs on trade or who implode negotiations over the 3rd world not taking action when the U.S. has been the one held even less responsible. Witness Bush's condemnation of China or India for not pledging to reduce emissions, then turning around and making the bold step of having called for a stop to growth in greenhouse gas emissions by 2025. Please reread that sentence. Ok, according to Bush his plan is to do nothing for the next 17 years, but you know what? 2025 seems like a good time to start taking action on halting emissions at WHATEVER the hell they have bloated to become by then. He doesn't even have a plan reduce emissions until AFTER they increase. The amount of fury that this 'plan' inspires within me is too vehement to take the time to express now. What makes the stupid and negligent policy even worse, is that he previously planned to start reducing emissions in 2015... 10 years before he now plans to stop growing them.

It is hypocrisy of the worst sort, and it achieves nothing. Change is needed at the individual, global, and regional level. No one country is responsible, and no one people will be able to solve the problem. Don't be duped, and remember what the future can look like if we continue to ignore the effects of the choices we make today.

Ok, now "write my first dkos diary" is off my to-do list. I think I need a break and a glass of water...

Poll

Amazing! Your diary has convinced me that

47%23 votes
6%3 votes
29%14 votes
14%7 votes
2%1 votes

| 48 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: energy independence, Obama, biofuel, cellulose, coal, oil, NPR, water conservation, vacoule, energy (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 48 comments

  •  Technology (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, kalmoth, JayDean, CJnyc, RosyFinch

    We are starting to see some of the innovation that is possible if we provide the right incentives (realistic pricing).

    The problem is that it has taken us so long to get to this very minor point that we have less and less time to avoid the crash.

    If we could take 1/2 of the money wasted in Iraq and 1/2 of the money spent buying regular military crap, and spent that on energy independence can you imagine the impact ... and if the US led the world, as it would do, imagine the impact on the economy to be the country holding the technologies that enable the future.

    We really do have limited time to find alternatives, test them, and then roll them out. This is not done overnight and the longer we wait, the closer to the edge we will go.

    I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong- Feynman

    by taonow on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:41:03 PM PDT

    •  Mother Jones (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      taonow, RosyFinch

      has a great issue right now discussing all the various ramifications of our future energy requirements. (The subtle title is "If we don't confront our energy crisis, we're screwed." Sometimes, I love that magazine...) They  raise this scary point also: the "easy" energy infrastructure of today is needed to develop the alternative/renewable energy of tomorrow. Dollar for dollar, all of the stuff that's been done so far is simply not self-supporting yet. Oil is being used to make all those solar panels, and will be needed to do so for a long time. There is a relatively narrow transitional time "window" beyond which it will be really, really difficult to develop a new infrastructure with diminishing (let alone prohibitively expensive) resources.

    •  I'd argue that we already have one (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kalmoth

      staring us in the face - Space based solar power would work just fine.  

      But we need to invest in it (and yes, launch cost are in the process of going down).

      •  I haven't even seen such a thing (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JayDean

        and am curious where you found that. I am skeptical because there is the issue of transmitting power from space to Earth. We also need to create more efficient solar cells to justify such an investment, and developments in nanotechnology might actually see some real progress there soon.

        One really interesting issue dealing with energy transmission is that there is increasing research going into the wireless transmission of energy (via vibrations or other electromagnetic waves), so you could charge cell phones from across the room instead of having to plug it in and be anchored somewhere. But that had nothing to independence so I left it out.

  •  rec'd (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    RosyFinch

    First off thanks for writing a great diary about something that is important but that can be overshadowed by the current electoral circus. We need focused, sustained commitment to these problems and so we can't let the slip from view.

    I agree with most of what you say pretty heartily. Energy independence is just a distraction - what we need is a full overhaul of the WAYS in which we get and use energy, not just where it comes from geographically.

    However, I do want to point out that biofuel is proving to be not what it was trumpeted as, and not just from the food supply angle - though that is important and kudos for bringing it up. For one, (I'll give links if you ask - I need time to find them all) there is evidence that biofuel may be actually MORE of a pollution problem than hydrocarbons. Also the energy cost of producing these fuels in most or all cases substantially exceeds the energy they produce. If the new corn you mention is such that extracting energy from it actually yields as much or more energy than goes into producing it it might be worth more serious investigation; otherwise I fear it too may be more of a feel-good distraction than a real help.

    Personally (this is just my opinion) I think we need to move away from the model of burning things - anything - as our primary energy source as much as possible. Truly sustainable sources of energy that in themselves do not produce pollutant vapors and so on - solar, wind especially, etc. I realize complete independence from combustible fuel is extremely unlikely with our current technology, but as a goal for the distant future perhaps. In the meantime anything that can be powered by non-combustible energy ought to be.

    I'm not attacking you - great diary otherwise. Just further thoughts.

    Tiberius to the Roman Senate upon their assurance that they would pass whatever laws he liked: "How eager you all are to be slaves."

    by StudentThinker on Mon May 05, 2008 at 08:41:49 PM PDT

    •  Thank ye, however (0+ / 0-)

      I was not tauting the current generation of of biofuels as the answer. You are right in that what we use today, corn and to a lesser degree (in America) sugar, take a tremendous amount of energy and money in order to created a viable fuel. These are just a stepping stone to biofuel based on cellulose, and take a skeptical eye to  that, it's the first piece I could find and is a self-promoting examination of the technique. Cellulose provides much better energy>mass, water>energy, and takes less intensive cultivation than corn.

      Now, the problem with this seeming cure-all is that we do not actually have a way of efficiently extracting that energy and utilizing it the same way we do with gasoline and the good 'ol internal combustion engine.

      •  Burning is a non starter, IMHO, for the future... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        GreyHawk

        Burning is bad, period.

        We've got to get past burning.

        What do you know about Peak Oil?

        Sharing and Caring are for Commies! They should be illegal. Drop by and support the Human Agenda

        by k9disc on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:13:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is a way to get beyond (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          k9disc

          burning at one stage anyway.  Unfortunately, I never see anything about it except on the specific sites about it - bioconversion.  The process uses anaerobic bacteria to convert a variety of feedstocks into either snygas or ethanol and the waste heat of the process is used to make electricity.  The feedstocks include garbage/sewage as well as agricultural wastes - anything containing carbon basically.  Which means it can even be used to turn coal into ethanol and electricity without any emissions from the plant itself.  (Coal is a very bad idea.  I don't care what they come up with as to using it "cleanly" or how they deal with sequestration, getting coal out of the ground is water intensive and very destructive of watershed.  Not good.)  Of course the ethanol is then burned in vehicular use, but if it is made from garbage rather than "purpose grown" agricultural products we have a win-win here.  I wish we were seeing more about these.  They are ready to go commercial right now, but can't get the start-up funds.

  •  Wind (0+ / 0-)

    can start taking over for coal as soon as we're (politically) ready.
    I happen to think energy independence is a reasonable goal, but obviously cutting our use/waste is the real key to making it happen.  Not pursuing energy independence may soon become a much costlier option.
    Clearly we need more scientific funding to make things like cellulosic ethanol happen.  We also need to rethink our economics and how we can thrive in a shrinking economy.

    "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." Mark Twain, as quoted by Barack Obama 6/30/08 Independence, MO.

    by SunWolf78 on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:00:25 PM PDT

    •  Yes, if we'd been building wind (0+ / 0-)

      at the rate Clinton was trying for, never mind what Carter was trying for, there wouldn't be any new coal plants on the planning boards.  Wind viability requires a solid "smart" grid system, because while wind is intermittant at any one given location, it's always blowing somewhere.  In combination with bioconversion plants and landfill-methane capture plants - well, if we'd stuck with Carter's schedule, we'd be off fossil fuels altogether now (considering his efficiency inititives combined with his renewables research as well as implementation initiatives).

      •  Theres also the problem (0+ / 0-)

        of cost effeciency. I think that wind is 3 or 4 times more expensive than coal, which means that until we find a way to eek out more from our windmills coal will remain too cheap for most people to ignore (not that it  isn't a horribly unclean source of energy).

        •  Not any more - it's at parity now. (0+ / 0-)

          It would look even better if coal weren't being subsidized.  The issue for small, single family plants is that all that money has to come up front.  I don't know why the utility companies aren't doing it - they have to pay up front either way and they'd be getting return on their investment faster with wind (much shorter build time and since "modular" wind starts generating income along with the electricity even before the total installation is complete), expect they are used to and totally set up for building fossil fuel plants.  Maybe it's the subsidies and tax breaks - those probably show up before the plant's online.

  •  Wrong on too many accounts... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Odysseus

    starting with the basic premise that "alternative energy" is limited to alternative fuels...

    Human beings, as a species, tend to live in massive urban and suburban developments which are compressed to such a degree that the most productive alternative energy sources cannot operate at the scale needed to supply them with energy.

    Wrong. The transmission infrastructure is already there; all that generation of alternative energy will change (if implemented as currently envisioned along with a "smart grid") is that the energy will be generated by more sources, thus making the infrastructure more robust and making massive blackouts and brownouts a thing of the past.

    It is simply much much cheaper to take energy producing resources [...] than to rely solely on oil, natural gas, or even uranium from home.

    None of the resources you listed (including coal) are alternative.

    I was listening to NPR recently and heard a REALLY great interview with a scientist working at Michigan University who had created a breed of corn where the STALKS could be made to hold large quantities of energy rich cellulite.

    Domestic resources of cellulite are vast and  have not yet been assessed for energy-related uses. I doubt that more of it needs to be produced. Also note that corn stalks normally store cellulose...

    I could debunk more points, but this "cellulite" thing presently pretty much assassinates the possibility of any serious discussion with you for me, sorry. Please come back with better research...

    Bottom line. The choice is between energy independence and mass die-off. Transition to alternative energy is inevitable. The faster it begins, the less traumatic it will be. Handled properly, it will create a massive amount of jobs, lead to technological advancements, and save the equilibrium of the biosphere before we have to deal with billions of people and millions of species being wiped off the face of the planet.

    As for the costs... by my assessment, if we invested the money  not just spent on the Iraq war, but "unaccounted for"  in it (about $12,000,000,000 per year) into alternative energy and a smart grid to support it, the United States would be energy-independent in 7 years or so...

    •  Oh, another possibility in cellulite research... (0+ / 0-)

      Switch the flat, square-bordered states from producing corn to producing porn. I wonder what the energy implications would be...

    •  Yes, the diary goes off into the weeds. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kalmoth

      I also want to agree with him that energy independence at an individual level is achievable and preferable in places like the Midwest where wind or solar are readily available, relatively cost effective, and where extending grids to individual households over the vast distances is just using up valuable resources.
      [...]
      Human beings, as a species, tend to live in massive urban and suburban developments which are compressed to such a degree that the most productive alternative energy sources cannot operate at the scale needed to supply them with energy.

      The error seems to be in conflating two totally different issues.  Off-grid personal structures and 100% American-generated electric power in the existing distribution system.  Both are achievable.

      -7.75 -4.67

      "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

      by Odysseus on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:50:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The off grid scenario was an example (0+ / 0-)

        of small scale energy independence, which is achievable. To do so at a national level is not feasible now, nor in the foreseeable future unless you have a Beryllium sphere.

        •  Can't we us unobtanium? (0+ / 0-)

          I understand that stuff is coming down in price :D

        •  National-level energy independence... (0+ / 0-)

          is 100% attainable using existing technology and, to a large extent, energy transport infrastructure, withing 10 years. The costs would be a tiny fraction of the military budget, and it would create several million jobs. That's not even taking into account energy extracted from cellulite.

          •  Enlighten me (0+ / 0-)

            give me something I can work with instead of links of cellulite tabloid pictures. If there is a way to do what you say then I will gladly add it to my diary.

            •  I posted the pertinent link on gridwise.org... (4+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Odysseus, GreyHawk, bfitzinAR, Jampacked

              in this thread somewhere.

              On a totally unrelated issue, we just finished (as of 12:15pm) putting together a sizable solar-thermal array (at this time, probably biggest non-concentrating facility in New Mexico), with peak output of about 200 kW. The whole project was done on a shoestring, with about $200K coming from the state being the only real money invested, but also with lots of help from everywhere - from local companies and the university physical plant to high schools...

              Here's the link, but now that the thing is mostly working, I need to update the bloody webpage - the estimates we had there are way too conservative...

              Next we'll put up some photovoltaics or concentrating collectors on adjacent buildings. All it takes is a little money and some determination.

              •  Hey, excellent job my friend (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                melo, kalmoth, GreyHawk

                I'm especially impressed with the minimal investment, I don't know how many times I hear the words "over budget" associated with almost every type of energy plant/source out there.

                There is something to be said for competence in projects such as yours, and I think one thing few people consider about subsidizing alternative energy (which I am all for in principle, just not at the market/food price distorting level that we have for ethanol)is that it creates a disincentive to be cost effective with the stuff because the government foots part of the bill. Blah... anyways, hope to see your success repeated elsewhere.

              •  Absolutely "Right On" - as I said above (0+ / 0-)

                we can do this - but only BY doing it.  We can talk and go down the tube, or we can build and possibly, who knows, save the world.  Mobilizing America can do it.  You are part of America and are apparently doing some mobilizing.  Wonderful.  All I can do is write letters - lots of letters - to the newspapers, to my senators, to my power company - with either no response or a "nicey-nicey" response and NO action.  But I'll keep trying - and be very thankful for people like you who are actually DOING.

        •  Not feasible now, but foreseeable future? (0+ / 0-)

          Of course it is.  We just (yeah, I said just) need to start building.  The fact that we've talked about what we need to do for decades without actually doing it is the problem.  A president can call for "One Million Solar Roofs" but if he can't get Congress to fund it, well, we're still talking, aren't we?  A total "win-win" is windmill generators on every western Indian Reservation - jobs and income for the "forgotten people" who currently have the highest rates of everything bad and lowest rates of everything good of any "ethnicity" in this country.  Start building them.  Solar heating (passive first, then active), solar hot water, solar thermal plants, solar photovoltaics - these are viable in every state to some extent and massively in the southern and especially southwestern states.  Holland (I think) is utilizing solar heat in their roads to heat buildings.  Heaven knows we could do that here, especially in the south (heat water in the summer and buildings in the winter).  Bioconversion is ready to go commercial - they just need the start-up funds - and can use garbage, sewage, and waste streams from chicken houses and CAFOs (that currently are polluting whole watersheds) to make electricity and vehicular fuel.  And there are so many more - not to mention conservation/increased efficiency.  It is entirely possible, with current technology, to reduce our electricity useage by 40% - if we just retool the lines/build &/or retrofit the plants.  That's with current technology.  Once we actually start using it, we'll be able to improve it.

          The only reason we can't foresee that energy independent future is we haven't taken the first step.  Start building.

    •  Thanks for the uttterly (0+ / 0-)

      useless comments.

      First of all I used the word cellulose, not cellulite. Second your parsing of my words in the first quote cuts off the word "primary" meaning NOT alternative. Third, the delusional and hypothetical 'smart grid' that you talk about is even further from being made into a reality than almost anything else I listed. Transmitting power across the nation cannot be done efficiently at the moment, you have lose tons of energy boosting it to cover large distances and then ratcheting down the current so it can be used in households and businesses. And even if they could, the energy produced by what would have been consumers in the past is no where NEAR enough to supply even a mid-sized city with energy.

      Anyways, thanks for reading at least a smidgen of what I wrote.

  •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JayDean, Jampacked

    It is very humbling to be called out as spurring someone to write their first diary.  I'd been sitting on my Gusher of Lies notes for a couple of months before putting it all together this afternoon.  Glad that it has stirred some discussion.

    On the cellulosic ethanol front, I read today that the DNA of tricoderma reesei has been decoded.  See http://www.primidi.com/...
    for more.

    Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at http://solarray.blogspot.com/2006/03/solar-video.html

    by gmoke on Mon May 05, 2008 at 09:45:33 PM PDT

  •  Oh yes, tips if you deem my efforts worthy. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JayDean, FerrisValyn, RosyFinch
    •  I'll tip you (0+ / 0-)

      Im curious as to you're take on utlizing off-planet resources - the big one being space based solar power.

      •  MMMM, space exploration and entrepeneourship (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        FerrisValyn

        are like a warm batch of cookies and some milk to me. I was weaned on a diet of science fiction and fantasy, and so would love to see humanity do more than look upward. Tied to the issue of energy is how we get into and stay in space, two things that are going on that will be helpful is a recent increase in interest for better batteries and also people are looking at how we get into space. Using solid state rockets is really really inefficient way of getting into space and the X-projects that led to Virgin Galactic designing a reusable space entry vehicle are things that have gotten me hopeful about the future.

        Even more tangentially from my original diary, but applicable to science fiction, is that I have a friend involved in embryonic molecular biology who has promised me he will work towards cloning dinosaurs.

  •  Again (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, bfitzinAR

    I have to maintain, over and over again, when I was shouted down by NNadir and by cellulose advocates that the top priority is efficiency, and that alternatives as the solution is a false choice.  It is not a green choice at the least, let alone plausible.

    If you improve car mileage, if you reduce the impact and the strain of lighting, heating and insulate on a great scale, you can do much if not the best choice short of going Luddite.

    Plus, he knows what crapped out means, which will help him explain his condition on the morning of November 5 - PBCliberal

    by Nulwee on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:18:13 PM PDT

    •  Nowhere do I say that (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GreyHawk

      efficiency isn't important. I'm just saying that we are relying on energy sources that are not going to refill themselves as we go along. Regardless of how efficient we get those sources will eventually run out, and I for one would like to have a backup plan is all.

  •  Energy independence can be achieved quickly (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, wishbone

    and easily if we go nuclear.  

    I'm not arguing it's the right choice, but the idea that energy independence is guaranteed to be impossible over a reasonable time frame is just flat out wrong.

    •  Especially new nuclear tech (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      GreyHawk, wishbone, bfitzinAR

      The trouble with current nuclear technology is the huge lead up time to getting a reactor online. If you had the resources to build a new reactor, it would be 30 years before it was online pumping electrons through the grid. And that's assuming you were able to navigate the social and political landmine of nuclear power.

      However, new technologies such as molten salt reactors offer smaller scale reactors which could be built in a fraction of the time. That they are also highly efficient and much safer and you may be questioning why we aren't using them now.

      Heavy water reactors can use the high level nuclear waste currently sitting in pools in current plants as fuel. Or decommissioned nuclear weapons. Again, these plants are much more efficient than current designs.

      None of these technologies offer a silver bullet. But in addition to truly sustainable technologies, we could put ourselves on the road to a carbon neutral energy economy in a reasonable period of time.

      The real answer, that no one seems to want to talk about however, is conservation. We should start paying people NOT to use electricity and gas. Let's face it, we've been living fat for way too long. It's time to tighten the belt.

  •  There's no way to convert cellulose to ethanol (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk

    economically.  That's the problem.  It took how many hundreds of millions of years of evolution before any organism on Earth could digest cellulose?  Now, only a handful of bacteria in the intestines of termites can do it.

    It doesn't matter if it comes from corn stalks or dandelions. We don't know how to use the stuff.

    I think that we should make a big satellite of aluminized mylar to reflect the sunlight back into space.  We could make it sun-synchronous so that it is always in daylight.

    Making the reflector part is the easy part.  The supporting skeleton is the hard part.  Deploying it without ripping it apart would be difficult.

    It would have to be the size of a small state, but I remember when we were considering even bigger solar sails for interstellar exploration.

    Back then, we used to dream about exploring space instead of worrying about how we could possibly survive.

    •  But there is an economic way to (0+ / 0-)

      convert waste products - human, agri, municipal, etc - into ethanol or syngas, with electricity generated from the process heat.  Bioconversion uses anaerobic bacteria - and several of the processes are ready to go commercial, but can't get the start-up funds.  (I don't know if they've updated their website - I understand they lost their web person a year or so ago - but brienergy.com has information about that.)

  •  Rescuee to Rescuee (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, sweeper

    Thanks for a highly informative and pragmatic diary.

    What are you encountering about the viability of using algae (oil, I think) for fuel?

    "Homeless veteran" should be an oxymoron.

    by iampunha on Wed May 07, 2008 at 02:15:59 AM PDT

    •  You would think every sewage plant would have (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bfitzinAR

      some sort of algae growing feature as the end process.  The stumbling block, of course, is that it wouldn't be a big money maker, not low hanging fruit.  Nobody wants to improve efficiency.  It's so dull.

    •  I ran across something - can't remember (0+ / 0-)

      where now, but there's a test plant running the coal plant smokestack exhaust into huge algae-growing vats.  The algae "eat" the CO2, then the biomass is used for generating ethanol.  It's another of those temporary fixes - we need to get off coal altogether - but as long as we are burning anything that gives off CO2 at a stationary location, this would be good.

  •  The Energy Revolution Began in 1971 (0+ / 0-)

    with the commercial introduction of the microprocessor.

    We have already cut energy consumption down with smart light switches, appliance load controllers and electronic fuel injection.

    The widespread use of personal computers has made it possible for engineers to design lighter automobiles and more efficient jet engines.

    Routing and scheduling software has made travel and transport less wasteful. Communication via the internet has made much travel and delivery unnecessary.

    This digital party is just getting started. Imagine a house with a grid of LED lights in the ceiling, where light follows you as you move around the room.

    Too many projections of alternative energy needs assume that we're going to keep consuming the same levels of energy per capita as we have in the past.

    Wrong! With the wider application of digital intelligence, we be able to thrive on a tenth of what we use today.

    First we have take the government (and the economy) back from the fossil fuel industry and it's financial partners.

    BushCheney Inc. - They lied to me, they lied to you, they lied to our troops.

    by jjohnjj on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:37 PM PDT

  •  the problem with equal encouragement (0+ / 0-)

    The problem with the idea of equally encouraging all forms of renewable energy is that private enterprise doesn't have the long-term focus and spare capital to invest in those sorts of technologies. "Do this research today, and maybe we'll find something that lets us do awesome things in 30 years!" That's not going to happen if we, say, only provide funding via tax breaks for carbon-neutral energy production.

    We need to provide direct grants for research, and doing so requires picking directions. It's not feasible to let the market decide what research is worthwhile because the market is shortsighted. It won't get us what we need, which is a massive overhaul of our energy generation, distribution and usage. There are some shorter-term efforts which can be  effected in a relatively technology-agnostic manner. The battery x-prize, for instance. However, this still leaves out non-electric energy storage mechanisms, which could nonetheless be extremely useful for portable energy storage.

    In short, we need policy. The people creating this policy, however, should be scientists - not lobbyists.

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