Clinton Campaign Moves Goalposts From 2025 to 2208

DURHAM, N.C. — Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign yesterday tried to redefine the delegate math for securing the Democratic presidential nomination, signaling its willingness to wage a divisive battle with front-runner Sen. Barack Obama through the summer.

Mr. Obama, meanwhile, questioned Mrs. Clinton's trustworthiness heading into today's primaries in Indiana and North Carolina.

Top Clinton aides said the nominee must win based on a tally that includes delegates from Florida and Michigan, which held January primaries that were disqualified by party rules. The campaign's "Delegate Hub" Web site identifies 2,208 as the total delegates needed to be nominated, or 183 more than the threshold of 2,025 set by the Democratic National Committee's rules.

"That's what we believe is the standard for deciding this — who has the majority of the total delegates including Michigan and Florida to decide the nomination," said Clinton strategist Geoff Garin.

Link to Washington Times Story

This points clearly to the setup for the Nuclear Option. They desperately want to move these goal posts again and as such, are floating the new meme.

My prediction is that the media, in their gleeful smarm over a protracted battle, will pick up on the 2208 number now, before Obama reaches the current requirement of 2024.5, thus setting the stage for the guy who wins having it overthrown.

There is a problem with the nuclear option, though. It is no longer possible if Hillary Clinton loses either Indiana or North Carolina. If she can pick up both states, though, watch for the new number in the media to be raised to 2208.

The media may try to move the goal posts for her anyway, regardless of the outcome of today's races.

•  Tip Jar n/t

  - Albert Einstein

  by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:56:24 PM PDT

  •  Clinton GoalPost are getting OLD

    very very very old.  The supers have to put a stop to this ASAP.

    by ourhispanicvoices on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:07:31 PM PDT

    •  NFL rules

      Why not?  In the NFL if a team is down by 21 at the end of regulation, they get to play sudden death overtime.

      by GreatDane on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:08:42 PM PDT

•  this is funny

  I posted the diary right above yours, and I didn't even see the WA Times piece.  i just went to the delegate hub site directly to see what their spin was.

  My blog. Come visit.

  by hekebolos on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:57:55 PM PDT

  •  ROFLMAO

    Not the first time a story was posted multiple times.

    Whoever gets the most responses wins. If you get a bunch more responses, I'll pull mine.

    - Albert Einstein

    by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:59:02 PM PDT

    •  sure

      right now it looks like you're leading :-)

      My blog. Come visit.

      by hekebolos on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:04:54 PM PDT

      •  Leave 'em both up...

        this much BS from the Clinton Camp needs two trailers to haul.

        by blueyedace2 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:37:34 PM PDT

    •  both of you should be banned for not using

      BREAKING or ACTION NEEDED!

      by strengthANDwisdom on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:52 PM PDT

      •  This isn't BREAKING, it's BROKEN!

        [eg]

        - Albert Einstein

        by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:06:49 PM PDT

•  More BS...

  from Camp Hillary. They signed on to the agreement that MI and FL wouldn't count and new what the delegate total was beforehand. Of course that's when she thought she had this whole thing wrapped out, oh how shortsighted she is/was.

  by wlfpack81 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:58:48 PM PDT

  •  Since when does it matter

    what Clinton previously said. When she changes her tune, the media applauds her for "reinventing" herself. If Obama had done the same thing, he's be a flip-flopper.

    by dawnt on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:55 PM PDT

•  Clinton found something she can win at

  MOVING GOALPOST! Lets give her a hand for at least winning at something!

  by AHiddenSaint on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:59:20 PM PDT

  •  The question is whther or not the media will let

    her move them.

    If they do, it becomes reality.

    It's sad, but true. I suspect they'll want to try and help the Democratic Party have a protracted battle.

    The only way to nip it is for Dean to set the record straight.

    - Albert Einstein

    by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:00:40 PM PDT

  •  But But But.......

    She's inevitable, resistance is futile.

    by opinionated on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:01:17 PM PDT

•  This is BS!!!

  Here's hoping IN & NC voters say enough!!!!

  by mikeymike68 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:00:35 PM PDT

•  Well SuperDelegates Know

  What the actual numbers are... more importantly they know that the heat will be on them to declare as the primaries start wrapping up.  She can put whatever she wants on her web site.

  by TooFolkGR on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:00:38 PM PDT

•  She should declare that she is the Queen

  How long can we tolerate this lunacy?

  by Kwaku Azar on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:02:39 PM PDT

•  Obama is acting as if he has

  the supers in his back pocket if he doesn't he had better show these people he's willing to fight for this nomination. The consequences of them going with Hillary had better be made clear.

  by nevadadem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:02:50 PM PDT

  •  I think he does

    But I'm getting tired of waiting on them. This slow trickle stuff is encouraging, but it's getting old.

    by droogie6655321 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:12:56 PM PDT

    •  I think it's been on hold until after the point

      where the number of undeclared super delegates outnumbers the number of remaining pledged delegates.

      Or to put it more simply, tomorrow.

      - Albert Einstein

      by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:14:55 PM PDT

      •  You have no idea...

        ... how much I hope you are correct. If he could end this in a dramatic and emphatic fashion, and end all this talk of "comebacks" and "game-changers," I would be one happy camper.

        But then again, Kossacks keep telling me "it'll end next week," and it never does.

        by droogie6655321 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:17:04 PM PDT

        •  It'll wrap up on May 22

          No more than 48 hours after he hits 1627 pledged delegates.

          - Albert Einstein

          by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:18:20 PM PDT

          •  A late birthday present for me.

            by droogie6655321 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:30:31 PM PDT

    •  IMO, he wants to let the voters put him over 2025

      not the SDs.  His total can keep creeping up close, but let the last primaries actually put him over the top.  It would lessen the perception that the SDs selected him rather than the voters electing him.

      by TexasLiz on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:16:24 PM PDT

      •  Teh problem is the R&BC meets on May 31

        and that could definitely muddy the waters.

        - Albert Einstein

        by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:18:58 PM PDT

•  On the inauguration day:

  Shame on you Obama!! I won the primary since you did not get 2208 delegates. How dare you become president?

  --Hillary

  by joy sinha on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:03:46 PM PDT

•  man, moving goal posts is labor intensive

  and it consumes a lot of gas. Bet she could really use a Gas Tax Holiday about right now - those low-income blue collar campaigns are really hurting for it.

  by Tom in Raleigh on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:03:51 PM PDT

  •  IT must be the only Account they actually pay up

    The goal post movers, that is.

    - Albert Einstein

    by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:05 PM PDT

•  i must be missing how this brings her closer to

  the nomination?

  by moja31 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:03:58 PM PDT

  •  It just muddies the water.

    It is for the benefits of the punidts spin so that they can bloviate endlessly.

    by joy sinha on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:51 PM PDT

  •  It puts Obama further away form it and buys time

    to get Florida and Michigan seated as-is.

    The nuclear option in play.

    she is arming the gadget.

    - Albert Einstein

    by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:51 PM PDT

  •  it just keeps both of them away.

    that's been her strategy.  regardless of what it does to her, so long as he doesn't get it, she's happy.

    by hn on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:54 PM PDT

    •  Yep, if she can't have it, nobody can n/t

      by dawnt on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:07:43 PM PDT

  •  I think she is trying to invalidate the results

    thus far by any means possible. Popular vote, not counting caususes, "big states" matter, 2208.  All the same thing - to create the impression that Obama is not really winning.

    And it might even work. But she looks like a complete ass.

    by TexasLiz on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:12:28 PM PDT

    •  Perzactly...

      
      That is why she keeps saying that the SD's shouldn't make a decision without FL & MI counting because it was call into question the "legitimacy" of the nominee.

      Her latest spin has been going on for at least three weeks. Surprisingly, so far, those kra-zee media people haven't followed her meme. Of course, they will probably start tomorrow.

      "Help!!! I'm being Enlightened!" - TCFKNCS's avatar

      I always wanted to quote an avatar.

      by RhymesWithUrple on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:23:56 PM PDT

•  HRC can threaten the nuclear option all she wants

  ... but it will only alienate the currently undeclared superdelegates and backfire against her.

  If she is arrogant and stupid enough to try it, the party leaders (and Dem SDs in Congress) will smack her down so hard that she won't wake up until after the general election in November.

  MSNBC's FirstRead blog had an interesting piece on this. In it, they quoted ex-Sen. Tom Daschle (sp?) as saying he's already hearing from his former colleagues in Congress they they will be beyond "ticked off" at Clinton if she goes this route. Hillary is playing with fire here and the mischief of going nuclear will NOT be tolerated.

  The delegates from Florida and Michigan can (and probably will) be seated after the nomination is decided. But there's not a snowball's chance in hell she gets them before that.

  by philimus on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:04:24 PM PDT

  •  And this was after

    she so pleased her Senate and House colleagues by the "We need a vote on the gas tax, because you are either with me or against me!"  

    by rf7777 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:08:21 PM PDT

•  She even said they wouldn't count

  She agreed to the rules before hand, and now she wants new ones.

  by Johnnythebandit on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:08 PM PDT

  •  Can we please, as concerned citizens

    put together an add reminding everyone of Hillary's own words on the matter? And Terry Mcauliff's 2004 stance on stripping delegates?????

    A counter message needs to be played loud and often.

    by TexasLiz on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:14:07 PM PDT

•  Well, if the media buys it, that's one thing

  Hopefully they won't, but they do want to keep up the horse race.

  by BoiseBlue on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:05:46 PM PDT

  •  The media won't buy it

    They called her on her lie about being ahead in the popular vote (though it took them a couple of news cycles to do it).

    by Lamont Williams on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:22:06 PM PDT

•  The media is already on it!!!

  Not to worry, full scale embrace of nuclear option is being effectuated.

  Newsweek - Wolffe:  No Clear Path to Nomination

  by mayan on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:07:31 PM PDT

•  Sometimes, when drunk...

  ...I imagine that this quality would make for a good president.

  "Madame President, your budget results in a $512 billion deficit, which some have s-"

  "No, it doesn't."

  "Madame President, your bombing of Tehran killed hundreds of thousands of women and ch-"

  "We didn't bomb Iran."

  "Madame President, recently, you said the sky was plaid.  What did you mean by that?"

  "Are you telling me the sky isn't plaid?  The sky is plainly plaid."

  by The Termite on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:07:43 PM PDT

  •  it's worked for the last 8 years

    why not for Hillary

    by geejay on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:15:15 PM PDT

    •  it's true...

      the Rovian policies of never admitting a mistake, continually moving goalposts, lying with impunity, calling out the opponent for things that you are doing, smear and intimidation have all been absorbed and effectuated by the Clintons and team.  They and their racist dog whistling are dead to me.

      by mayan on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:39:57 PM PDT

•  All I Can Say Is...

  If the Clinton campaign is really serious about this "nuclear option", then they had better be damned sure they prevail; otherwise, they had better be prepared to join Joe Lieberman's party.

  I don't care how much the better angels of our natures beg us to be nice for party unity.  There comes a point where even the most noble among us will turn the other cheek only as backswing to a swift and terminal shot to the striker's groin.

  Selah.

  by terry2wa on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:07:47 PM PDT

  •  I'd say that

    if the Clinton campaign prevails at the nuclear option (an unlikely scenario), they still better be prepared to join the Joe Lieberman Party because the Democratic Party will be blown to bits.

    by dawnt on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:10:22 PM PDT

    •  yep. to bits!

      If Hillary somehow put together victories in all the remaining races and pulled close enough so that her electability argument swayed superdelegates and she won the nomination, I'd be disappointed but would acknowledge that she was our nominee.

      If she wins because Michigan and Florida get seated then she will lose in November, due to the riots in Denver in August.

      by Shahryar on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:36:23 PM PDT

•  Something new here?

  This has been their premise for quite a while.

  by woodstock007 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:08:14 PM PDT

•  Garin floated this number on MTP a while ago

  I blogged on this a while back.  HRC will do anything to get elected.

  by s d randes on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:09:09 PM PDT

  •  yes you did

    I linked to that in the other diary on this subject.

    by Shahryar on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:37:38 PM PDT

•  you will know Obama is nervous

  if he starts "poisening the well" about a Clinton SD led win. So far Obama hasn't done it. If you start hearing things like we have earned this nomination and unelected party bosses shouldn't overrule the delegates of the voters you will know camp Obama is ready for all out war for the nomination.

  by nevadadem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:10:37 PM PDT

•  Who cares what Hillary says

  Obama will get to 2025, declare himself the winner and we can move on.  The superdelegates are not going to agree to this change in the goal post.

  by jhwvertigo on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:10:48 PM PDT

  •  Yep!

    When 2025 is reached, the DNC will declare him the winner as well.

    by Professor Fate on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:19:36 PM PDT

•  If only she had 900 or so more contests...

  ... and they were all held in Arkansas, then she could catch up.

  by droogie6655321 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:12:11 PM PDT

•  Goalposts

  Let Senator Clinton move the goal posts out of the stadium.  Our team will celebrate in the end zone.

  by CA Pol Junkie on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:21:12 PM PDT

•  Hillary: Makin' the Pie Higher!

  If Obama has a path to 2,208 delegates, look for Clinton to stake a new claim:

  The number should actually be 5,147 delegates -- and delegates earned by a candidate's spouse during former presidential primaries should be allowed to count 100%.

  Time for some serious goalpost moving!

  by Torta on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:22:28 PM PDT

  •  at this rate...

    ... the new goal post will be a primary out there on Pluto.  or Alpha Centauri.

    by RadicalGardener on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:28:27 PM PDT

•  For a second I thought 2025 and 2208 referred to

  the years 2025 and 2208.

  But then I thought, "2208?  The Clinton campaign couldn't move the goalposts that far, could they?"

  My dumb.

  by J R Hand on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:22:37 PM PDT

  •  ...

    AP (New New York)--The cryogenically frozen head of Hillary Clinton disrupted the Democratic Convention today, yelling "It's my tuuuurrrrrnnnnn!!"

    by PerfectStormer on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:36:57 PM PDT

•  Title: 'tries to move'

  by NeuvoLiberal on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:22:44 PM PDT

•  I put some of the blame on Obama for this

  Yes, this is goalpost moving from Hillary's camp, yes, it's trying to change the rules after the fact, etc.

  But, and I say this as a supporter, I think this is partly Obama's fault. He should have gotten out front on this issue a long time ago. By letting the FL and MI issue lie fallow for so long, he left himself open for this. He should have gone public with a reasonable compromise (and sorry, but 50/50 for Michigan was not a reasonable compromise) and put Hillary in the position of having to accept or reject it.

  Punting the issue to the DNC was a bad decision on his part, and this is the result.

  by Angry White Democrat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:25:13 PM PDT

  •  50/50 is the ONLY reasonable solution in Michigan

    The DNC specifically requested the candidates remove their names from the ballot.

    Obama graciously complied with the request.

    Anything other than 50/50 in Michigan now blatantly punishes Obama for complying with the request of the party.

    - Albert Einstein

    by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:28:11 PM PDT

    •  50/50 is the same as not counting it at all

      Hence, it's no compromise.

      A reasonable compromise would look something like this: Knock both states down to 50% for breaking the DNC calendar, then seat Florida as-is and Michigan 55-45 Clinton-Obama. Hillary picks up a couple dozen delegates, but the issue is off the table and Obama doesn't go into the end of the primaries with those two states hanging over him like the sword of Damocles.

      It was a big mistake for him not to suggest something like that.

      by Angry White Democrat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:35:09 PM PDT

  •  he's being penalized for playing by the rules-WTF

    by chimaeranyc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:52:03 PM PDT

    •  I agree that he played by the rules

      However, what matters now is perception.

      If Obama's primary victory is perceived as illegitimate - a strong possibility if the FL/MI situation is not resolved - then he will have tremendous difficulty rallying Hillary's supporters behind him for the general election. That will make it very difficult, if not impossible, for him to beat McCain.

      And now, there's also the chance, however slim, that the Rules & Bylaws committee may seat the two states as-is, which would give Hillary a real shot at taking the nomination.

      Obama could have avoided all this by getting out front on the issue and offering a reasonable compromise. He should have done so.

      by Angry White Democrat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:57:16 PM PDT

      •  The FL and MI situation will be resolved

        in a fair and equitable manner.

        - Albert Einstein

        by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:59:47 PM PDT

        •  Really?

          Because it looks to me like Hillary's nuclear option has a decent chance of success.

          13 members of the 30 member Rules and Bylaws Committee are Hillary supporters. 8 are Obama supporters, and the rest are uncommitted. One of Obama's supporters on the committee is from Florida and may vote to seat. In addition, one of the uncommitted members is from Michigan and may vote to seat.

          There is a chance that this could happen. Obama should not have let it come to this. That's my point.

          by Angry White Democrat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:03:24 PM PDT

          •  IF that happens the party is destroyed forever

            so it won't happen.

            - Albert Einstein

            by Walt starr on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:05:13 PM PDT

•  ATTEMPTS to move the goalpost...don't take...

  this bait either!!!

  by midnightreader on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:27:13 PM PDT

•  Glad I won't have to be in the room....

  ...when Howard Dean sits her down and tells her if she keeps it up, she won't even be invited to the convention.  This BS is getting ridiculous.

  by Pennsylvanian on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:27:39 PM PDT

•  If the MSM (other than KO) spins this...

  As anything other than utterly ridiculous, I'm going to tune out for good.

  by zreeb on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:29:31 PM PDT

•  This is desperation folks...

  Hillary always held MI and FL as a back up plan, which is why she's said since Super Tuesday she won't leave until MI and FL are decided.

  The fact that she's pushing them now before the IN and NC primaries means one of two things:

  1. She knows she's in trouble tonight and neither IN or NC will help her.

  or

  2. She's trying to dirty any luster an Obama victory tonight might have in hope of keeping everyone's focus on the minute possibility she can pull this out.

  The problem is Hillary's lost this thing, and after tonight it'll be clear to everyone that only she can only win this by stealing it.

  And changing the required number of delegates to win the nomination THIS LATE in the game in addition to seating delegates from unrecognized primaries as is IS stealing the nomination.

  That is where this meme will hit a brick wall: When the discussion becomes "Will the Democratic Party allow Hillary to Steal the Nomination?"

  by griffon2k on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:40:56 PM PDT

•  CLINTON WONT PLAY BY RULES/STEAL ELEC

  by marsbardem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:44:41 PM PDT

•  Well, you know ...

  ... it IS Hillary's political party, we all just live in it!

  by RadicalGardener on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:26:05 PM PDT

•  Failure to engage on this invites chaos

  Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. The Obama campaign needs to hammer her on the credibility issue.  Something like, "we've said before she would do ANY THING to win.  This moving the goal posts is just another example of her failure to be straight with the American people."  Then let KO and Jon Stewart have a field day.  She's the type of person that needs to be smack downed immediately on issues or she starts to believe her own propaganda.  Also, MSM will start accepting it if the Obama campaign, specifically, and his supporters, collectively, don't scream about this.

  by RuralDem on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:30:44 PM PDT

•  Because Bush/Cheney/Rove cheated to win

  two elections, Clinton seems to think it is okay if she does it as well.

  It's not.

  by Village expects idiot home soon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:40:24 PM PDT