Daily Kos

Am I the only Kossack who supports Obama and doesn't hate Hillary?

Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:41:54 AM PDT

I'm just wondering. Not that I have the same amount of time the rest of you do to read diaries and comment on them, but it is hard to miss that there is a high level of animosity against Hillary Clinton in general around here.

This attitude reminds me a bit of our president's attitude. You are either FOR Barack or you are AGAINST him. If you are FOR Hillary, you must be AGAINST Barack. There is no shades of gray.

This is crazy, coming from a community that reputedly agrees that every interaction is a shade of gray. I think Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are great candidates and would be great presidents and overall I see the differences between them as rather marginal. In the end I chose to support Obama, but not because he was a hugely compelling candidate over Hillary Clinton.

My wife has been a Hillary supporter all along, and I never got upset about it. I respect her right to make her own judgments, as she does mine. Either candidate would be a quantum leap over the miserable failure currently in the Oval Office. Both will do their best to get us out of Iraq quickly. Arguably, Clinton would do it more quickly.

Sure I can find faults with Hillary, but neither candidate is perfect. Her stand toward Iran strikes me as very George Bush-ish. On the other hand, some of Obama's early statements, particularly on using forces unilaterally in northwestern Pakistan, sounded half baked and I was glad that Hillary caught him on it.

Both candidates are people with warts and pimples. We will never have a perfect president. Obama won't be one when he becomes president either. If nothing else government is too huge and unwieldy. Obama will make some mistakes, and some will be doozies, once he is in office. So will many of the people he picks to help run the government. There will be corruption and malfeasance. Count on it.

Campaigning, as brutal as it has been, is relatively easy. Governing is the hard part. Clinton has a point: she has been raked over the coals many times and can take the heat. We may not always like her, but most of us should be able to say that we respect her. And for whatever it's worth, she does have some executive experience just from rubbing so many elbows with Bill all these years. She has a perspective on the job Obama cannot have unless he had been first man. That perspective is an asset, not a detriment.

Ultimately we do ourselves a disservice, and the Republicans a service by bashing Hillary as much as we are doing. Better to be like Barack and try to take the high road. See the forest through the trees. Sail above the frays and battles of the moment. Keep the goal in mind.

Either candidate would be effective as president. Neither will be miserable failures. Stay civil. Stay high minded. Barack is. If we truly support him, let's emulate him in the same manner.

Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 104 comments

  •  no, I dislike her STRONGLY but I don't (6+ / 0-)

    hate her.

    If u will not vote for the Dem. nominee, no matter who that is, go apologize 2 the youth of this nation. U've helped put in "100 years of war no Choice McCain."

    by Clytemnestra on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:43:06 AM PDT

    •  Gotta say, after 18 hours of delegate challenges (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Scoopster, cometman, Philoguy, geejay

      ...here in the TX 23 county convention, I'm solidly in the hate camp.

      "Oh, TV. Is there anything you can't do?" -- Homer Simpson

      by Melody Townsel on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:46:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, tell us what you think about the TACTICS (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        NWTerriD

        The strategy went out the window long ago, built on the foundation of name identification (and primarily Bill's at that).

        I don't hate Hillary, but I loathe the tactics which her campaign has employed.  The unidentified robo calls by the WVWV front group were particularly egregious.

        I don't hate Hillary, but I regret deeply the delay she and her advisors have caused in the start of the Democratic campaign for the general election.

        I don't hate Hillary, but I detest the live ammunition which she, Bill, and their advisors have shipped by express mail to Republican candidate McCain.

        We're all in this together.

        by JTML on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:37:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  More Information on WVWV (0+ / 0-)

          Many people feel that WVWV is not a Hilary front group. This is from Color of Change:

          At the same time, the accusations that the errors made by Women's Voices Women's Votes are part of a conspiracy to help Senator Clinton, appear to be false and reckless.  Women's Voices Women's Votes has a history of registering voters of color, and the facts as we understand them, simply don't point to such a conspiracy.  As Women's Voices Women's Votes takes deserved heat for whatever damage they've caused, it's not productive for them to be unfairly maligned as working to harm or help one of the presidential primary candidates.

          Source
          And from ACORN

          Women’s Voices, Women Vote, an organization that does first-rate work to register unmarried women and African American voters, has recently been wrongly accused of engaging in voter suppression.

          Source

    •  I agree. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      Additionally, I too have many family and friends who support Mrs Clinton, and am fine with that (I wish some of them where just as fine with my non support).

      I am from MN and if you think our caucuses are undemocratic I have a lake to introduce you to.

      by edgeways on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:28:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hate what she has DONE to our party. (4+ / 0-)

      And that fosters severe frustration and loss of respect for her.

    •  Well I hate her... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JTML

      I hate her pandering to ignorance, I hate her race bating, I hate her dismissal of grassroots in favor of big money lobbyists, I hate her center-right politics and her pandering to rightwing frames.  I think she is an example of what's wrong with the democratic party and what we have to move beyond.

    •  Put me down as VERY disappointed -- and angry. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Clytemnestra

      I would have voted for Clinton if she had been nominated, but I am glad I won't have to.  She entered this campaign with a decidedly mixed record -- unadventurously liberal on domestic issues, Liebermanesque on many matters of war and peace -- and in recent months has run the Republican's campaign against Obama for them.  This is simply not what I expect from a Democrat.  

      I have found much of the anti-Clinton rhetoric at DKos WAY over the top -- the number of men who think that their disapproval of Hillary somehow entitles them to use the B word is astonishing -- but Clinton's own behavior has become increasingly repellent.  This gas tax BS is the latest -- I have no doubt that Clinton knows Obama is right about this, but privately figures that since it's not going to happen, she can reap the political rewards of backing a bad idea without having to worry about it's real world consequences.  It's an act of disgusting dishonesty.

      So no, I don't hate Hillary -- but thank God I won't have to grit my teeth in the voting booth this November.

      McCain: Running for Hoover's 21st term

      by Finck II on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:39:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  in all honesty (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      katieforeman

      i have liked hillary Clinton the loser a lot more than i have Clinton the winner

      i thought that her speech last night was one of her better one's and that she didn't even make my teeth ache during her press conference this afternoon -- at least the parts that i caught (a couple winces admittedly, but no real deep throbbing ache!)

  •  No there are 2 of us.... (6+ / 0-)

    I am here to...but the new rules on the DailyObama say that you are not allowed to be an Obama supporter if you like Hillary...sorry it is just part of the rules we need to live with.../snark

    Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

    by dvogel001 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:44:02 AM PDT

    •  Really? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe

      Not sure when the snark in your comment began.

      My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:45:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  After there are 2 of us... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Zanna, steve davis

        The whole comment was intended to be a snark...lighten up...do you really think there are only 2 people on DKos who support Obama and like Hillary...I will bet there are at least 10...but they are just afraid to post anything here out of fear of being bashed...

        Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

        by dvogel001 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:48:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am lightened up (0+ / 0-)

          just couldn't figure out where you were making a point and where you were being snarky.  If folks are afraid to post -- that's their problem -- or, they just might not be interested.  I'm guessing that there are precious few, like folks at MyDD, who actually hate either candidate.  That would be somewhat pathological, I should think.

          My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

          by gchaucer2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:14:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know about 10 (0+ / 0-)

          maybe 6.53, just to make a guestimate

    •  I love it (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      katieforeman, Zanna, Sychotic1, SottoVoce

      but I came to supporting Obama late, say, right around the Super Tuesday results, +/- a week or two.  I'm not all that thrilled with how she's been campaigning (disgusted, really) but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say she's a republican, or that I dislike her.  I'm just disappointed, I think, that she's not handling this as well as I expected or to a level of decency I (subjectively) feel is appropriate.

      And I certainly have no problem being disgusted with the level of personal vitriol, hate, derrogatory/inflammatory commenting, personal attacks and the like that have not only become the norm around here, but often get more rec's than reasonable intelligent commentary.

      I guess it's just in to call Clinton a hateful republican evil uber-facist bitch and denounce her supporters as duped, uninformed and uneducated. Not productive, but definitely popular.

      •  I haven't seen her supporters denounced (0+ / 0-)

        as duped, ininformed or uneducated.  I think you're thinking of the OBAMA supporters -- we are the ones who get those labels slapped on us, usually couched in phrases that contain one or more of the following words:  Kool-Aid, cult, worship, messiah, kumbayah, shallow, glitz, brainwashed, deluded, rock-star -- and others that convey the same idea more sarcastically.

        What has been said about Hillary supporters is generally along the lines of, "How can they go on supporting her, after seeing what she has become?"  Most of what is said TO Hillary supporters is not about them, but rather about their candidate, her campaign, and/or the disgraceful actions of her or her campaign.

        Onward to the Mountaintop!

        by NWTerriD on Wed May 07, 2008 at 04:27:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I reserve the hate for bushco. n/t (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, JTML, sja, mango, SottoVoce

    St. Ronnie was an asshole.

    by manwithnoname on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:44:13 AM PDT

  •  Nah I'm with you (4+ / 0-)

    I think I feel about Hillary like my parents did when I did something wrong.

    I'm a woman and a lawyer and I respect her so very much for so many things.  I disagree with her on some issues, but that's okay, reasonable, rationale and intelligent people disagree from time to time.

    But I am so profoundly disappointed in her in the way that she's run her campaign.

    But if she got the nomination, I would vote for her in a heartbeat.

    Disclosure: Proud to be the Volunteer coordinator for Indiana for WesPAC

    by ElaineinIN on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:44:13 AM PDT

  •  Hate is an incredible waste (6+ / 0-)

    of energy and saps the psyche.  I detest just about everything her campaign stands for, don't like her as a person, don't want her as my President -- but I don't hate her.

    My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:44:28 AM PDT

  •  I don't hate Hillary Clinton (12+ / 0-)

    I really dislike the way she has been running this race.

    I really don't hate John McCain, I just don't like the Republicans or their views.

    John W. McCain, Bush's third term.

    by aaraujo on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:44:32 AM PDT

  •  No far from it... (3+ / 0-)

    here's the diarywith a poll that puts some numbers on this question.

  •  Rec'd for bravery and honesty... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Zanna, revgerry, cyncynical

    Obama/Whoever He Chooses '08 Winning Change for America and the Democratic Party

    by dvogel001 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:44:36 AM PDT

  •  wait a couple of months and (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sja, remingtonsteele

    we'll probably all be back to being ambivalent about Hillary.

  •  Some of us have had issues (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mother Mags, cyncynical

    spereting the person from the campaign.  Granted, she is the face of her campaign, but I think the issue is the way the campaign behaved and the tactics used that upset many here - not necessarily Clinton herself.

    But I could be wrong....

    •  The campaign did it for me too. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Philoguy, Brubs

      Six months ago I would have happily voted for any Democratic nominee, although Hillary was way down on the list. But seeing the way her campaign has been run since then, and comparing her pandering and scorched earth policies to Obama's message of hope, if I were to vote for her in November now, I'd be holding my nose.

      "One cannot be pessimistic about the West. This is the native land of hope." Wallace Stegner

      by Mother Mags on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:49:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What a bullshit (0+ / 0-)

      distinction.  A person is the sum of their actions.  There isn't some additional mysterious metaphysical entity over and above what we do in the world and how we act called a "person".  By your reasoning one could argue that people who hate Hitler are just failing to distinguish between Hitler the person and his reign as Fuhror.  After all, that Hitler was a real nice guy when not engaging in his political duties.  Such nonsense.

  •  I have found.... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mango, SottoVoce, remingtonsteele

    That the maturity and intelligence level on this site is rapidly declining, and the testosterone keeps climbing. It resembles the WWE or UFC much more than a debating society.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:45:28 AM PDT

  •  My hubby is a Hillary supporter... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    berkeleybarb, itsolivia

    I haven't divorced him yet.LOL!
    I haven't said anything disparaging to my friends about Hillary, but they have said some awful things about Obama.

    The Religious Right is Neither.

    by cyncynical on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:45:33 AM PDT

  •  I don't hate many people... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    cyncynical

    I surely do get upset with some of the stuff that goes on, and I see an incredible number of flaws in her.

    But I bet if I met her in person, I'd think she was fine.  I'd even laugh with her at her sniper fire stories.  But as time has passed, I've seen less indication that she's what I would or could consider presidential.

    "2009" The end of an error

    by sheddhead on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:46:21 AM PDT

  •  Oddly, this is somewhat reversed for me (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rich in PA, CalexanderJ

    I actually like her more than I respect her, if that makes any sense.

    We may not always like her, but most of us should be able to say that we respect her

    I do look forward to her fighting hard in the Senate, where she belongs.

    •  Majority leader? (0+ / 0-)

      How do you feel about Hillary for Majority Leaders as a consolation prize?

      Many an insightful opinion and observation can be found on my blog Occam's Razor.

      by Guy Noir on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:54:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What has she accomplished (0+ / 0-)

        in the Senate to merit such a powerful position?  Don't we, as Democrats, believe people should be judged on merit rather than engaging in cronyism and favoritism?  And do we really want a senate leader that bases her votes on the polls (Iraq, the gas tax, the patriot act), rather than determining what people need to hear rather than what they'd like to hear?

    •  I totally understand that sentiment. N/T (0+ / 0-)

      -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

      by Rich in PA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:55:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No, dear, you're not. (5+ / 0-)

    Granted, it's hard to tell that sometimes, but there are a lot of us who don't hate Hillary Clinton.  

    I for one have never understood that reaction to her (I can't call it a response - it's not reasoned enough).  Of course, I'm a woman of about her age who has been called the F word often enough to be able to tell when what the person means is "insubordinate bitch".  

    I didn't vote for her, but it was because I liked John Edwards' ideas, and Obama's came closer than hers did, as far as I could tell.

  •  she had a choice this morning (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JTML

    to either concede defeat (and she has clearly lost) or act out of selfish interests.

    She has gone from being grating to being in denial and her campaign is now nothing more than a destructive ego-trip.

  •  I don't hate her but I don't really respect her (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JTML, berkeleybarb

    and her husband's actions during this campaign.  I'd have no problem with her as VP as long as she cuts out the sh!t.

  •  Diane Reims show today Hilary has to leave with d (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, revgerry

    dignity so she can convince her supporters to support Obama with her.  It was the opinion of all three guests Obama has the nomination but the tricky part for Obama's people is to get her out with her usefulness intact.  We have to think about this.  she may need the wins in WV and KY, small change to show she still has pulling power.  Anyway that's waht I heard.  There were some very committed Hilary types callling in.  We probably need them. It made me think I needed to let go and stop hating her.  I never liked her much so letting that go isn't a problem.  

    WE must hang together or we will all hang separately. B.Franklin

    by ruthhmiller on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:47:49 AM PDT

  •  Is this the (0+ / 0-)

    Magnanimity Thread?

    Don't fall for it!  She is cunning, and she is counting on JUST THIS VERY THING!

  •  there are very few people I hate. She isn't one (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mango, remingtonsteele

    of them.

  •  Thanks for the post Guy, (4+ / 0-)

    everybody take a deep breath and step back. We're almost there, let's not poison ourselves.

  •  You aren't alone (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, Zanna, remingtonsteele

    see previous thread

    You aren't alone.
    Undersytanding they're both incredibly popular candidates, I believe that together they'd be stronger (and the party and its best activists more healed and reunited/all Dem voters supercharged) than running with so-so running mates.
    We need high-mindedness and we need to be prepared to do whastever it takes to WIN this time...regardless of our preconceived notions and biases.

  •  I don't hate Hillary, but she doesn't respect me. (5+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Yoshimi, Philoguy, revgerry, geejay, Govinda

    In a perfect world, respect is mutual.

    I acknowledge her right to run and I acknowledge the number and enthusiasm of her supporters. I have said before that I do believe she has a vision of how to fix the country and that she believes in that vision, and that her motives are basically true.

    But I left her campaign when she started talking about how I didn't matter, and that has made it difficult to maintain respect.

    I do hate some of her campaign staff. There, I said it.

    You're in debt and completely fooled that you can look in the mirror and objectively rank your wounds --DCFC

    by Saska on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:49:30 AM PDT

    •  For all I know, she doesn't respect me either (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      remingtonsteele

      And I have no idea what Obama would think of me :)  But I don't care.  Whoever would run the government for the benefit of society as a whole, and for the special benefit of the less powerful and less well-off, that's who I want to support.  The rest is just my vanity, which I try to keep in check.

      -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

      by Rich in PA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:54:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am I would support (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    remingtonsteele

    either of Democratic nominee.

  •  In general a toning down of hate would be welcome (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, remingtonsteele

    since it is an old-style way of doing politics that I thought we were moving beyond????

    •  Hate is an emotion, not a political style. (0+ / 0-)

      The fact that I hate Hillary, which I do, does not mean that I would ever engage in some of the slimy actions against her that she used against Barack.  

      Onward to the Mountaintop!

      by NWTerriD on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:02:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You may not be the only one... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, Bill W

    ...but I'd say there are more outright Clinton supporters here than there are Obama supporters who don't hate Clinton.  There are two types of (political) hatred of Clinton by Democrats that I understand: the Iraq-centered variety and the down-the-line super-progressive variety.  In shorthand terms, I understand and respect Code Pink-type hatred and Kucinich-type hatred.  Neither of these is especially consistent with support for Obama, except under the most lesser-of-two-evils scenarios.  Obama opposed the war from his position as a state legislator, but he hasn't been part of any aggressive push to de-fund the war as a US senator; and as for overall progressivism, he's more progressive than Clinton on some issues and less progressive on others, the net result being pretty much a wash.  

    So overall, I'm mystified by the phenomenon of Clinton hatred.  I can't blame it solely or even largely on the Obama campaign, because most of the haters hated her when he was just an asterisk.  But he has made it work for him, to put it mildly.

    -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

    by Rich in PA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:52:15 AM PDT

    •  Hatred is a pretty strong term (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Philoguy

      But if it helps, there are other reasons that Hillary is not "my girl" that are neither Iraq nor super-progressive issue oriented.

      Early on, her continuous announcements about what "I will do" what "I will change" vs Obama's "We can do it" approach made a big impact on my thinking. I kept thinking - the Pres. isn't an emperor or dictator (even though the current incumbent disagrees). Then, as time has gone on I have found there are other "Bush-like" aspects to her management style. We don't need another one like that.

      I suspect this varies somewhat from region to region, but I am in one that has a deep visceral reaction to the Clintons in general and Hillary in particular. I've come to wonder if, rather than 'hate', it is more 'terror' that some of these people feel about her candidacy. Whatever it is, she can mobilize Republican GOTV better than any other technique the Republicans could buy or try.

      •  That's a basis for an affirmative preference... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe

        ...for Obama, if you value that kind of thing (what's in a word?), but since Clinton is the default rather than some kind of outlier when it comes to presidential leadership style, it's not a basis for disliking her.  And indeed, you don't seem to dislike her.

        The other point you make, that lots of people have a deep visceral reaction against her, is pretty interesting and one of my diaries (back when I had a spurt of enthusiasm and actually did diaries) was about this.  It's a complicated question whether one should honor the visceral feelings of others in making your own candidate choice--it's yukky to surrender your freedom of choice to the hysteria of others, but on the other hand if you take their hysteria as a reality with certain electoral consequences, it's politically suicidal not to take it into account.  I think those feelings towards HRC are concentrated in Republican states anyway, so "no harm done," but the (unrealistic, fantastical) 50-state strategy says we have to honor the prejudices of Alabamans even while we slight Democratic voters in two states that shall remain nameless!

        -5.38/-3.74 I've suffered for my country. Now it's your turn! --John McCain with apologies to Monty Python's "Protest Song"

        by Rich in PA on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:26:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If I had decided, all things being equal (0+ / 0-)

          That I strongly preferred Clinton I would have accepted the "extra" effort it was going to take to fight the "OMG not a Clinton, and not herrrr!" reactions.

          And I don't know that she has the default in Presidential leadership style. I think Kennedy, Carter, and even Bill were more like Obama than Bush. Over time Hillary began to look very Bush-like to me - "for us or against us", don't need to listen to experts, valuing loyalty and friendship over competence in her campaign staff; and on her signature health care issue when she had a chance under Bill's administration, the thing got derailed in part from being done in too much secrecy (think Cheney & Energy).

    •  I would call it more of a Clinton hysteria. (0+ / 0-)

      This post is not meant to apply to all or even most Obama supporters, but there is a hysteria about all things Clinton among some Obama supporters that reminds me of the Anti-Clinton hysteria of the 1990's on the far right. For the wingers in the 1990s and some of the dailykos Obama supporters now, the Clintons are sort of a Rorschach test. Extreme feeligs toward the Clintons are more a reflection of axiieties about American society, politics and government than about the actual behavior of the Clintons.

      Hillary Clinton has done some things during the course of the campaign that disappointed and even angered me (mostly before she finally fired Mark Penn), but a lot of the antipathay seems irrational and out of proportion to anything she or Bill Clinton actually did or said.

      Craig Crawford joked that anyone associated with Bill or Hillary Clinton should be read their Miranda rights because anything they say can and will be used against them.

  •  I'm in the (0+ / 0-)

    "utterly disgusted" camp.  Hate - eh, I can't see that happening.  But I'm appalled by her now.  

  •  I used to like Hillary before she decided to put (0+ / 0-)

    her selfish desires above the best interests of the nation by doing everything she could to sabatage our eventual nominee.  

    •  Yeah, that's about it. (0+ / 0-)

      Before this awful, destructive campaigning of late, I would have worked for her with great enthusiasm.  Mostly I just feel sad about her.

      Mike: "I miss my sense of outrage." Kim: "I know... What was it like?" [Garry Trudeau, Doonesbury (from memory)]

      by berkeleybarb on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:53:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  To answer your question: YES, ... (0+ / 0-)

    you are the only Obama-maniac who doesn't despire Hillary. I'm all for working hard to defeat her in her next Senate election so we can once and for all be done with this cancer within our party.

    Always be a Good Sport, be a Good Sport Always

    by Cougfan on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:56:59 AM PDT

  •  I am in the hate her camp, but it has NOTHING (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, Boisepoet

    to do with any "if you're for Obama you must be against Hillary" crap, which I think is a brainless, spineless and valueless way to go about deciding how you feel about a person.

    My feelings about Hillary developed many years before I ever heard Barack Obama's name.

    She, and she alone, has made the choices, said the words, and taken the actions that have caused my intensely negative feelings about her.

    Still, before March of this year, in my more reflectve moments, I might have grudgingly admitted that "hate" was slightly too vitriolic a word for my feelings; that really, "contempt" and "disgust" might be more accurate.

    Since March 1st, she has gone and made it worse.  I now feel no ambiguity about using the word "hate."  

    Do I wish her harm?  No, I just wish her not in the White House and not in Obama's way getting there.  I wish her in a place where I never have to see her face or hear her voice again.  I wish her in a place where somehow her skills can be used for the benefit of our country, without any situation ever arising in which the good of our country depends on her making an ethical or moral choice.

    Onward to the Mountaintop!

    by NWTerriD on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:58:52 AM PDT

  •  You're not alone. (3+ / 0-)

    I don't dislike Hillary. I do dislike her tactics.

    "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." MLKing

    by TheWesternSun on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:59:28 AM PDT

  •  I detest inside-the-Beltway... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    espresso, Catte Nappe, geejay

    ...triangulation, DLC thinking, person above party, and so forth.  Hillary and Bill exemplify that.

    That said, I'm in the "hate the sin, love the sinner" camp.

    The way to win is not to move to the right wing; the way to win is to move to the right policy. -- Nameless Soldier

    by N in Seattle on Wed May 07, 2008 at 11:59:37 AM PDT

  •  I support Obama... (0+ / 0-)

    ...and don't hate Hillary. Frankly, I'm more disappointed with some of Hillary's supporters than with Hillary.

  •  No. Most of the Clinton bashing has been on the (0+ / 0-)

    order of theories wrapped in tin-foil jackets and baked a bit too long in a hot oven. I dislike the fact that she can't figure out it's over, but I don't think every time she says something I disagree with that she's "lying" or that the personnel surrounding her are all evil minions bent on a late-afternoon crucifixion of the front-runner. Still, it's really time for her to go, now. Exit stage left.

  •  yes (0+ / 0-)

    Obama/Dean 08 Strong unions for a strong America

    by realwischeese on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:20 PM PDT

  •  It's over. I don't like people who ignore reality (0+ / 0-)

    and that's what Hillary and her supporters have represented for the past two months.  It's been over for a long time now, yet they refused to acknowledge that, instead pursuing an agenda designed to tear down our Democratic nominee.  What the hell am I supposed to like about that?

    I hate delusional thinking, and I hate dishonest smearing that hurts the Progressive agenda and the American people.  Please explain to me why that's unreasonable.

    Civic spirit drowns in a hurricane of mere survivalism - McKenzie Wark

    by cfaller96 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:04:44 PM PDT

    •  A long time? (0+ / 0-)

      What, like 3 months?  And it was delusional for neither Clinton or her supporters to continue... she honestly had a shot.  The method that would've gotten her the nomination is more to her discredit (and her supporters) than continued support.  But it certainly isn't delusional, otherwise there wouldn't have been a slew of diaries every day for the last month or so about how Clinton was going to steal the nomination through supers.  The call to action and general concern shows that it was definitely a possibility.

      •  No, it was delusional, and there *were* lots (0+ / 0-)

        of diaries talking about how Clinton was going to steal the nomination through Supers.  Where have you been?

        She had no path to the presidency after TX and OH.  It was delusional to think otherwise.

        If you really, truly believe she had a shot to win the presidency after TX and OH, then please point to the contests that upset her applecart.  If she had a shot after TX and OH, then where exactly was she surprised by Obama's better-than-expected finish?  Where did things go awry?

        Answer:  nowhere.  He finished about where he was expected to in WY, MS, PA, and NC and IN yesterday.  And she finished about where she was expected to in WY, MS, PA, and NC and IN yesterday.  There were no "OMG! Obama shocked the world!" results in any of those contests.

        Things went pretty close to what was expected, and lo and behold, she now has no shot at the nomination or the presidency.  So how was it NOT delusional to believe something that happened exactly as we expected it to for a long time (2 months) was going to somehow net an extremely different result?

        Either it was delusional to expect things to go severely differently than they did, or it was delusional to expect the anticipated results to contribute to a severely different situation.  Take your pick, but this thing was over after TX and OH, and many, many people in this community have been saying that.  For a long, long time.

        Civic spirit drowns in a hurricane of mere survivalism - McKenzie Wark

        by cfaller96 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:34:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  seriously, did you read my comment? (0+ / 0-)

          yes, there *were* lots of diaries... as I said... and if it was delusional, as you claim, then it would not have taken up so much real estate, both here and in the media, about its feasibility/likelihood.  you, or me, or the next guy, might not *like* how it would've happened, but there *was* a real shot of her taking the nomination.

          delusional implies that somehow this was an impossibility. under this logic, you would've called McSame's supporters delusional about mid-October of '07 when he was finished and broke.  Clinton supporter's have had at least as much to go on as his did.

          •  Presidency =/= nomination (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            remingtonsteele

            Yes, I read your comment, but you seem to be missing an important distinction that I've been making.  She had a theoretically plausible path to the nomination, but she had NO path to the presidency after TX and OH.  THAT is why so many diaries were devoted to her stealing of the nomination- because it would have doomed Dems' chances in November.  Somebody needs to read somebody's comments a little more closely, but I don't think it's me.

            The nomination means little unless it accompanies a real and serious chance at the presidency.  And the idea that it would be appropriate to sacrifice any chance at the presidency for the sake of the nomination is absurd and (wait for it) delusional, IMO.

            Again- after TX and OH, it was delusional to think she had a shot at the presidency.  It was over 2 months ago.

            Civic spirit drowns in a hurricane of mere survivalism - McKenzie Wark

            by cfaller96 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:05:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  d'oh (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              cfaller96

              point conceded. but, I still say - hope is a virtue, even when misplaced ;).

              •  True, hope is a virtue, and FTR (0+ / 0-)

                I was willing to let Hillary go on after TX and OH, though I had reservations about her negativity.  Hell, she can keep going today.  As it stands now, I don't believe she must get out.  She can stay in, she can continue to go negative and trash Obama, and there will still be time to unify the party, IMO (after Puerto Rico, though, she has to leave).

                Having said that, however, I won't tolerate her and her supporters having any delusions about what they're doing- they're trashing the Dem nominee that they failed to defeat, for inexplicable or, worse, self-centered and despicable reasons.  Sure, you can continue, but there are no free lunches here- by choosing to continue to deny reality, you contribute to and perhaps directly lead to a catastrophic situation (a McCain presidency) and gain little for it.  Accept responsibility for your choices, and you'll be ok in my book, even if I disagree with the choices you make.

                Many, many, many doomed campaigns have continued because (most often) the candidate wanted to keep certain issues in the spotlight, and/or force the frontrunner(s) to address those issues and that agenda.  That clearly wasn't the case with Hillary.  It was all about her, and for the supporters it was all about them.  It was all an effort to put off admitting defeat and failure, for both the candidate and her supporters.

                That's my opinion, because the math hasn't changed for two months, and they all knew it even if they refused to admit it.  Again- the math has remained essentially unchanged for two months now, and it was expected to remain unchanged.  To anticipate some radical change in that math was delusional, in one way or another.

                I see no reason to sympathize with delusions borne out of procrastination/denial, and I see much to dislike or "hate" in that.  Just my $.02.

                Civic spirit drowns in a hurricane of mere survivalism - McKenzie Wark

                by cfaller96 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 02:22:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I like the logic that (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  cfaller96

                  has Clinton suspend after losing Oregon - seemed to maeke a lot of sense.

                  but, to the points outlined above - now you're going back to the nominating contest, and not discussing general electability given a superdelegate victory.  shakey ground, that.  clinton really has had no reason to believe she couldn't arm-twist supers into voting for her; that they haven't is great news.

                  so really, that's not about "math" or "delusion."  the only point I'll grant you have is that had she won the nomination via superdelegates, she almost certainly would've still lost in the fall, cementing the "she can't win the presidency" argument.

                  but, even almost certainly isn't certainly, so I still have some reservations about calling such support delusional.

                  the republicans thinking they'll gain seats this fall, that's delusional.

                  •  Well, I'm speculating mostly... (0+ / 0-)

                    about the motivations behind Hillary staying in the race and her supporters staying behind her.  I don't know for sure that it was an effort to procrastinate admitting defeat and failure (aka denial), but it sure feels like that.

                    Regarding the nomination versus the presidency, I never really claimed that she couldn't get the nomination.  But there was no way that she could get the nomination that wouldn't doom her general election (and it seems like we agree on that).  Thus, it is the height of folly to support a "win the nomination at the cost of the presidency" strategy, so I'm still insisting that there is delusional thinking about her chances at the presidency with her behavior during the primary.

                    You cannot separate the nomination and the presidency now, and you haven't been able to do that since TX and OH.  Since then, the math dictated that the only way Clinton would get the nomination would be to override the will of the voters and necessarily doom her general election chances.

                    So since then, it's been delusion to try anything and everything to get the nomination (aka "kitchen sink"), because the only chance at a successful nomination would guarantee failure in the general.  TX and OH were her last chances to get a valid nomination victory, and it's been delusion since then.  That's what I meant.

                    Civic spirit drowns in a hurricane of mere survivalism - McKenzie Wark

                    by cfaller96 on Wed May 07, 2008 at 05:48:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  some of the problem is kos (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, Pluto, mango, SottoVoce

    He uses too much sarcasm and condescension when talking about the Clinton's.  
    It's a failure that this blog couldn't maintain a civil discourse among supporters of opposing democratic candidates.

    •  I agree (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      katieforeman, wvhillrunner, mango

      Kos set the tone.  At first, it was relatively straightforward, seeing he's a fan of polls and numbers.  He laid out the positives and negatives of each candidate.  Once he changed his mind about Obama, whom he used to accuse of running from the center, and decided he was the man, he started to get sarcastic and snotty in describing Clinton.  Now, he barely says anything civil, and others can see that this is the preferred tone around here.  

  •  the funny thing is... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman

    in any other year, against any other candidate, Hillary would've been an incredibly strong Democratic nominee. Even the "tactics" she used to win would've probably still been accepted as par for the course, and there wouldn't have been a huge issue with supporting her.

    It's only in comparison to Obama that her campaign starts to look laughably out of touch, and sometimes offensive.

  •  I Don't Hate Senator Clinton (0+ / 0-)

    I don't like her as either a candidate or a person, but dislike is not the same as hate.  "Hate" is a word I do not use lightly, though it has certainly been used repeatedly as an offhanded way of portraying opposition to Senator Clinton's candidacy as malign.

    My dislike notwithstanding, I care about issues, and I clearly understand that Senator Clinton would be far, far preferable to Senator McCain in the White House.

    She's got both my vote and my support if she somehow manages to win the nomination, however much I may cringe at that thought.

  •  Nope. Not the only one. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, mango

    I've been astounded by the level of incivility around here (and on the campaign trail as well).

    Let's hope we are moving toward a happy resolution.

    Evolution is so obsolete, gotta stamp your hands and clap your feet! Gotta dance like a monkey, dance like a monkey, child.

    by espresso on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:12:31 PM PDT

  •  No (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman, mango

    I Like her - you should have seen her at Wake Forest with Maya - she was superb (HRC, I mean) - it's only when she gets into campaign mode that she's jarring

  •  I dislike the campaign but not the candidate (0+ / 0-)

    I said the same thing about Kerry in 04'. The campaign machine was awful and wrong so much so that later Kerry admitted that it didn't really represent him.  I want to give HRC the same chance to return to her life as a senator and do some good for the country.

    HRC does need to take responsibility for her actions in the campaign. I'm not going to help her repay her campaign debt or hold the party hostage so that she can win a power struggle with the DNC, choice in VP, etc.  

    HRC needs to remember that this campaign isn't about her or Bill...it's about the people and the future of our party. I hope she'll support and become part of that change by helping our party unify and heal.

  •  Nope....I don't hate Hillary, I'm just... (0+ / 0-)

    I'm just very dissappointed. I was actually very for Hillary at the start of this campaign.  Then the Gloria Steinem article hit the New York Times, basically telling blacks to get to the back of the bus because it wasn't their turn. Then there was South Carolina, then Bill, Bill and more Bill. Then the "Shame on You Obama"...then NAFTA, then the Gas Tax. The campaign staff that she has had and BILL have not helped her at all. That's why I'm so disappointed (along with Don't Ask Don't Tell, and DOMA, which I had forgiven both of them previously, but which came back up after the "kitchen sink" strategy).  What's disturbed me the mostwas this anti-black perception throughout her campaign--and the dismissive attitude toward the largest group of voters that have ensured voting rights and civil rights for all Americans, from judges down to local politicians--and that would be blacks. As a Latino, I found that perception revolting. So, no, I don't hate Hillary--her campaign and the style of her campaign I find very lacking.

  •  Having a spouse.... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman

    on the other side gives you a more balanced insight. You know what too many others often forget. Most of Hillary's supporters are good Democrats and good people.

    As an Obama supporter I tend to think the Hillary bashing has been counterproductive for some time now. It has been obvious since February who the nominee was going to be. The key to the endgame here is winning over her supporters as quickly as possible once the primary contest is officially over.

    Attacking their preferred candidate makes this goal more difficult to achieve. Gloating makes this goal more difficult to achieve. Calling for an end to the race makes this goal more difficult to achieve.

    Just have a look at the comments over on talkleft to see the gulf that needs to be bridged. But given the bitter feelings the visitors of that site now have for this site there is no way the most widely read blog in politics will be able to play a useful roll in stitching this thing back together.

    It couldn't matter any less who is wrong and who is right.

    And scolding them ("Get over it") for considering supporting McCain or staying home won't work either. Just drives them further away. That formula is only useful if your objective is to lose the general election and blame Hillary and her supporters for the loss.

  •  I think if she had run a different campaign (0+ / 0-)

    I would have a lot more respect for her. But, she surrounded herself with some pretty unsavory individuals and has taken their advice to heart. If she ditches those people and, perhaps, lets herself shine through I think she would be much more likable and could do good things in the Senate, perhaps even making Majority leader eventually.

    I am from MN and if you think our caucuses are undemocratic I have a lake to introduce you to.

    by edgeways on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:32:05 PM PDT

  •  Personally, she's likable, but... (0+ / 0-)

    ... I disrespect her professionally & politically.

  •  I am disppointed in Clinton's behavior (0+ / 0-)

    There is no hate, just disappointment and frustration.

  •  you are not a kossak (0+ / 0-)

    u are a TROLL!!!
    HILLARY IS THE ENEMY OF KOSSAKS

  •  Clinton Hatred is (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    katieforeman

    a phenomenon of long-standing, which began long before she became desperate and turned her campaign toward the dark side.  She Stanley Fish's article on the subject.  http://fish.blogs.nytimes.com/...

  •  I was undecided until the Idaho caucus... (0+ / 0-)

    One thing that has consistently bothered me about HRC since then has been her dismissal of the 'red' states, and the impression that the 50 State Strategy is subordinate to her nomination.

    Well, that and the vote for war...ultimately I couldn't get past that, which is what set me to looking more closely at Obama in the first place.

    But no, I don't hate her and wish her well as she stops her campaign and supports Obama for president.

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government. Always hopeful yet discontent, he knows changes aren't permanent. But change is." -Neil Peart

    by Boisepoet on Wed May 07, 2008 at 12:56:14 PM PDT

  •  I dislike the tactics (0+ / 0-)

    ...but I don't hate her...I hate her slimy campaign advisors who live in an alternative universe called SORELOSERSVILLE

  •  Don't hate her . (0+ / 0-)

    Just don't like her . Really can't stand her . Times she make me nauseated . Oh Hell . I hate'er .

  •  We can't lose sight of this: (0+ / 0-)

    We can't let a Republican win!!

    Every so often I read or hear about Democrats declaring that if their candidate loses the nomination they'll vote for McCain.  

    GROW UP!!!

    Look at the devestation done to this nation by three decades of conservative domination.  I don't know about you.  Maybe you think you're well-off enough, secure enough, you have a vast, high enough mountain of wealth that you can afford more of the same.  I'm nearly penniless because of the machinery occupying this country, and I'm not a slacker.  I've got an honors degree from a university with a very demanding curriculum, and I earned it by overcoming obstacles thrown in my path by the machinery.  So I have to tell you, I froth at the mouth at the idea of people with more business playing in sand boxes than they do walking into voting booths, throwing hissy fits because the right nuance of Democrat isn't running for President.

    "Your silence will not protect you." --Audre Lorde

    by altruista on Wed May 07, 2008 at 01:08:27 PM PDT

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