I might be close to winning over one of my Christian friends to Obama

A few days ago, I wrote about my frustration at having one of my pentecostal/charismatic friends jump on my case about my support of Obama.  Well, I think I may be close to winning over one of them.

This friend lives near Detroit.  She opposes abortion and is skeptical about gay rights, but she's not a Republican by any stretch.  She hates Shrub with a passion--doesn't think he's really a Christian, and thinks Iraq is a massive FUBAR.  When I told her about that NYT story that proves Shrub wanted war as early as January '03 and was even trying to provoke Saddam into a confrontation, she said it didn't surprise her at all--and she's convinced he's getting kickbacks from somewhere.  She decided early on that she wouldn't even give McCain the time of day, and it scares her to death that so many moderate Repubs in her neck of the woods have been suckered by him.  As I see it, that's the only reason why McCain is even making a race of it in Michigan.  After all, you've got Oakland County turning bluer by the minute.

But she wasn't sure about Obama either--if only because she wasn't sure he was telling the truth about being a Christian.  However, she feels Obama's going to win anyway.

We really had a chance to talk about it more last night--and the conversation turned to the public financing deal.  I told her about how McCain is doing an end run around public financing, despite being the supposed champion of campaign finance reform.  For those who don't know, according to the April 21 WSJ, McCain's set up dozens of accounts to collect donations of up to $74,000 (!) and parcel it out to the national and state parties, who in turn can use it to help McCain and other Repubs.  I had to spoon-feed it to her, though.  In contrast, I told her, Obama's raised scads of money by relying on ordinary muckety-mucks like us--and not one cent from lobbyists.  I asked her if her main sticking point was still what Obama believed.  She said yes, and I told her that it says a lot about the guy when he relies on donations from people like us.  She says she has to pray about it, but I think I've almost closed the deal.

I've said before and I'll say it again--at bottom, most born-again Christians agree with us on economic issues and the environment.  Win them over, and we finish the job we started in 1992.

•  Tips for tearing up religious right Astroturf!

  by Christian Dem in NC on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:04:36 AM PDT

•  My mom won't even consider him

  she calls him a muslim baby killer.  It drives me crazy.  She hates McCaingry, though, so I'm hoping she will just stay home. (People who refuse to even look at the issues don't deserve to vote, imo.)

  by Rane Wallin on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:07:41 AM PDT

  •  Your mom sounds like that friend I mentioned

    in an earlier diary ... she thinks a vote for Obama is a vote against God, but doesn't like McSame either.

    by Christian Dem in NC on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:09:50 AM PDT

  •  Quit trying to get her

    to vote for Obama.  She won't, and pushing someone so closed minded on it will only get her to vote for McCain, however unenthusiastically.  Work on trying to convince her that McCain is not worth her vote.  I'd either push Barr or try to keep her at home.

    by IhateBush on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:17:13 AM PDT

    •  Barr, definitely.

      Those who are obviously beyond any attempt to get them to support Senator Obama, I believe, should be pushed to support Barr.

      My wife's grandmother believes McCain (NOT Obama) to be  a Manchurian candidate, if you can believe it.  She won't vote for Obama, either.

      by Schopenhauer Telescope on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:44:53 AM PDT

    •  I disagree

      and I say this from a Christian standpoint, but Obama is clearly the candidate who best understands the christian community, and even though he disagrees with them on some things, he is clearly more sympathetic than McCain or Barr, to whom faith is mostly part of political theater.

      by ArkansasLiberal on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:51:17 AM PDT

  •  Similar situation with my family.

    My parents call him an "empty suit", and my grandmother thinks he's a Muslim.

    Once people get nonsense like that into their heads, it's pretty difficult to cure them of it. I don't even bother -- they'll all vote for McBush, even though they can't stand him.

    by sricki on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:32:41 AM PDT

•  Good luck!

  Something I've always noticed about Obama is that he's pretty much the only politician I've seen that ACTS like a Christian.  His campaign exemplifies so-called Christian principles instead of spouting off about them and then doing the exact opposite.  He respects his neighbor, he turns the other cheek, he champions those who cannot help themselves, etc..  Too bad more "Christians" don't value this sort of thing a little more than they appear to.

  by oscarsmom on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:14:13 AM PDT

•  For all those who don't think

  Obama is a Christian, point them to the book by Stephen Mansfield.

  "For Obama, faith is not simply political garb, something a focus group told him he ought to try. Instead, religion to him is transforming, lifelong, and real," Mansfield writes, going on to compare Obama favorably to Christian Democratic presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, who he says erected a "wall of separation" between their religion and their governance.

  By contrast, "Obama's faith infuses his public policy, so that his faith is not just limited to the personal realms of his life, it also informs his leadership," Mansfield writes.

  by IhateBush on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:22:52 AM PDT

  •  The book comes out in early August

    Yeah, definitely, tell your friends, who you think would be interested in that, about the book, and even give it to them as a gift.

    by jj32 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:55:06 AM PDT

    •  I can't wait to see

      how that plays out!

      by dirkster42 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:11:10 PM PDT

•  Christians are an overwhelming majority

  in the United States.  But we have allowed the Republicans to claim they and only they are true Christians.  Saying your friend is a Christian does no more than put her in the 80 or 90 percent majority.  Implying that, because someone is a Christian, that person is inclined to vote for McCain, makes no more sense that saying that someone else who plays chess or has a stamp collection or a flower garden is inclined to vote for McCain.

  by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:35:11 AM PDT

•  Keep it up!

  I'm pretty insulated, I guess.  Most of the Republicans I know aren't religious, and most of the religious folk I know are liberal, so I don't have much opportunity to do this kind of one-on-one work.  But it's so awesome that you're making an impact - every bit adds up!!!

  by dirkster42 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:35:48 AM PDT

•  Here is what I tell people like your friend

  Since abortion is the sticking point for many of these people, I tell them that Obama is concerned about attacking the root causes for abortion, naming poverty, lack of living wage jobs, lack of health care, and lack of effective contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Unless you work to eliminate the reasons why women feel incapable to provide for a child and eliminate the suffering of children born under difficult circumstances, then opposing abortion means your compassion for others begins at conception and ends at birth. To oppose abortion without changing the conditions that bring it about is not compassion - it is hypocrisy that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of Jesus.

  by DWG on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:42:29 AM PDT

  •  And I guess Jesus told you that?

    by SpamNunn on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:58:17 AM PDT

    •  Well,

      I'm guessing that's snark, but there are plenty of religious people who come to pro-choice positions after reflecting on the life experiences of women with unwanted pregnancies.  Reflecting based on faith commitments isn't the same as waiting for someone to tell you what to think.

      You can also check out the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice.

      by dirkster42 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:09:52 PM PDT

      •  Pointed snark

        I would not presume to say what Jesus thinks about anything.

        by SpamNunn on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:13:11 PM PDT

        •  Yes,

          sorting out what Jesus said from what Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John added can be a headache.

          by dirkster42 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:21:01 PM PDT

          •  Not really snark

            No, I cannot claim to know what Jesus thinks, but there is a consistency in his teachings that demand love for others, most especially those in need. There are no exceptions to that rule.

            by DWG on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:27:16 PM PDT

            •  I've seen reference

              to Albert Schweitzer a lot, but haven't gotten around to reading him yet.  But from what I've gathered, I think his point was basically that you can spend a lot of time doing historical research to figure out what Jesus thought, but you'll always end up with something that looks a lot like yourself, but if you really want to know what Jesus was about, you just have to go ahead and walk the walk and start caring about the people in need around you.

              From my "to read" list: Schweitzer's The Quest for the Historical Jesus.

              by dirkster42 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:38:55 PM PDT

            •  I'll buy that.

              by SpamNunn on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:04:05 PM PDT

    •  yeah

      He said what you do for those in need, you do for him; and what you did not do for those in need you did not do for him.

      I always like to ask those who are all fired up about abortion what personal sacrifice they have made for women struggling with the decision to terminate a pregnancy because of lack of financial, emotional, or physical resources. I ask if they made any personal sacrifice to help reduce the needs of the already born.  I usually get blank stares and uncomfortable expressions because they have been brainwashing into thinking that opposing abortion is a meaningful act of compassion. Opposing abortion requires little personal sacrifice if all it means is stopping the procedure.  If you oppose suffering of the unborn, then presumably your heart is beyond broken at the suffering of the already born.

      Think about this. Can you be separated from God before you are born?  No, because God would be unjust. Can you be separated from God after you are born, particularly during great suffering? Yes. So, if you love God and wish to see that no one is separated from him, where should you focus your compassion?  

      by DWG on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:23:10 PM PDT

•  I'm with you, all the way

  I am also a Christian who has been making the argument for Democrats amidst the bile spewed by the right-wing smear machine.  One of the reasons I supported Obama in the beginning was that I felt he would make a serious effort to have a dialogue with the evangelical community.

  I just don't understand how there is this resistance to Obama in the faith community, when he has been more open to having a real dialogue about these matters than does John McCain.  He may not always say what they want to hear, but he has shown a willingness to both listen, and show up and ask for their votes.  CNN had a forum on faith during the primaries.  Hillary and Obama were there.  McCain skipped.  McCain's "outreach" has been to get the endorsement of a couple of televangelists who he promptly had to disown due to embarrassing comments they had made.

  McCain has shown a real lack of understanding of the Christian community and faith in general, and I find it sad that he would be seen as the "default" candidate for alot of religious voters.

  by ArkansasLiberal on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 11:48:27 AM PDT

  •  Simple, it's a knee-jerk reaction

    among many of our born-again brothers and sisters ... they won't even listen to someone who's pro-choice and even remotely supportive of GLBT rights.  That's why you've got some of the poorest districts in the nation electing Republicans by obscene margins.  Never mind the Repubs have given it to us in the neck on the issues that really count.

    Luckily our generation is waking up, though ...

    by Christian Dem in NC on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:03:03 PM PDT

    •  I think you're right

      I think with our generation alot of the rigidity of old attitudes towards politics are crumbling.  People are realizing that combatting poverty and treating other people with respect are Christian values as well.  It's pretty sad that that in itself is news, but I am thankful for progress.

      by ArkansasLiberal on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:06:42 PM PDT

•  Can McCain prove he's a Christian?

  What I mean is, this "burden of proof" attack is still working, but you have to fight back on it. Anyone (e.g. Larry Sinclair) can say anything about anyone, then sit back and say "well, prove I'm wrong".

  I'd find out what it was that had your friend on the fence about believing Senator Obama might not be Christian, and go from there.  If it's coming from Fox Noise (s)he wouldn't be the first to fall for their smears.

  by pakaal on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 12:21:21 PM PDT

•  McCain's flip-flopping even extends

  to his religion since he isn't apparently sure of  his own denomination. I suspect he's a Christian in the Reagan mold - i.e. for political purposes only. In stark contrast, Obama really seems to be a faithful believer.

  by Ian S on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:17:28 PM PDT

•  I have a hard time understanding

  Christians who knee-jerk vote on abortion, evolution, gay rights, etc.

  If any of them are actually READING the Bible they claim governs their lives, they will see that Jesus wasn't concerned about much more that our own individual spiritual improvement, which can be enhanced by helping those less fortunate than themselves.

  Instead, they are enslaved to a Pastor Class that does all their interpretations for them for political or economic reasons, and who are repeatedly caught ripping off their flock or practicing some hypocritical sexual preference.

  If I were them, I'd be like "whoa - God's trying to tell me something here!"  Instead, they just move onto another  pastor so they can remain mindless and unthinking - secure in their knowledge that they are going to heaven because they didn't question religious "authority".

  by Gustogirl on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:45:48 PM PDT

•  A suggestion for your evangelical friends

  Point them to this speech by Obama at the 2006 Sojourners/Call to Renewal Pentecost conference in Washington, DC.  He spoke to a large group at National City Christian Church that day.  While I don't know the precise breakdown between Catholics, Orthodox, mainline Protestants, and evangelicals, I'd estimate that probably half the people there (or at least very close to it) were evangelicals, and virtually all were believing Christians.  I was there, and I don't think there was a person there who had the slightest doubt about the genuine nature of Obama's faith.

  The most impressive thing to me is near the very end, where he talks about the doctor who emailed him not long after his primary victory.  I think it's a pretty good description of the basis for the estrangement between many liberal Democrats on the one hand, and Catholics and evangelical Protestants on the other, and of how that estrangement can be healed.

  by leevank on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM PDT

•  Christians who care most about . . .

  . . . feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing the naked, bringing good news to the poor, making peace, etc. should have been voting Democratic for a long time. My mnemmonic device for why to vote Obama over McCain: HINTS.

  Healthcare. Obama will make it more widely available; McCain's plan will make more people uninsurable -- it would be the death of employer-sponsored healthcare in America.

  Iraq. Neither candidate will withdraw totally, immediately. Obama will get out as quickly as possible without causing a disaster. McCain will stay in as long as possible.

  National debt. Obama has no plan to pay it down significantly, but McCain plans to make it much worse.

  Torture. Both claim to be against it, but when it comes to voting for bills that would actually stop it, McCain won't cast the vote.

  Supreme Court. Boumediene was 5-4. Alito and Roberts, whom McCain has cited as models of justices he'd appoint, were in the 4. Obama opposed Roberts precisely because he tends to support power over the weak.

  by HeyMikey on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 01:49:21 PM PDT