Daily Kos

Eating our own.

Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 02:56:54 PM PDT

Here we go again.  It is not sufficient that the Enviro-types sabotaged Gore in Florida because on one single issue (something to do with an air-strip) he fudged a bit.  Now the so-called liberal blogosphere must brand and tag Obama with the same right-wing talking points that the corporate media is gleefully using against him, because he weighs things differently on one single piece of legislation.  All because a couple of telecom companies might get away with cooperating with the heavy hand of the Government, at a time when even otherwise intrepid journalists such as Dan Rather confess to feeling overcome by both a misplaced sense of patriotism and fear.

Will we ever learn?  Do the purity hounds on the left actually care about the people we are supposed to be looking out for?  (Helpful hint: people whose wages have not risen in decades and people who do not even have that luxury of non-increasing wages.)

Look, I get that the FISA bill might be near and dear to the hearts of DFHs (me included).  The way to get pols who generally have our type of inclinations (Dems) is to put up a petition site, get the signatures and deliver it to them electronically or in person.  And, may be a couple of diaries analyzing the good and bad of the legislation, with comments showing support or dissent for the legislation. May be a couple more on who is supporting what and their reasons.  

I am by no means saying we roll over and play dead and not criticize Dem candidates.  But a sense of proportion, a sense of keeping communication lines open with our own candidate, a sense of when to fight and when to fold has to constrain the instincts for making every issue an issue that is going to make us sit on the sidelines.  

There is a way to offer up constructive, inclusive criticism to people on our side, to get them to do the right thing.  But this orgy of diaries and comments and TPM-style headlines about Sen. Obama as flip-flopper?  This is just drama for the sake of venting and may be vestiges of resentment from supporting other, losing candidates in the primary?  Whichever it is, this can only mean one thing: we do not want to win.  

And therein lies the perniciousness of this self-indulgent blogswarm on FISA and Obama.  Democrats winning is completely crucial to people who are most certainly NOT a part of this indulgence, because they are out there trying to make a decent living.  By constantly pushing a destructive narrative of our own nominee, we are destroying the only hope that may be 150 million people, not to talk of the 6 billion outside, in these United States are depending on.

I will close with a link to Sen. Obama's own diary here, to make these points so much better.  If you do yourself and your cause one favor this whole year, read this diary and take it to heart.  Then go out this weekend and read his two books.  Think about what is at stake.  No single piece of legislation, except that authorizing war, can be a make or break issue.  Else no(thing in) life is sacred.

Sen. Obama's diary from a few years ago, when he was still interested in us, before we lost it to drama...

P.S.  I am not one of those who needs a Democratic President.  I am well set in life, and too, I can afford to uproot myself and go anywhere in the world if I get too upset with the workings of this country.  HOWEVER, my heart just aches when I think of the luxury you folks seem to think you have in trashing good candidates who would be life-lines to people who desperately depend on good policies. Our injunction ("you have a responsible position: act responsibly") to the corporate media irresponsibles should be medicine we ourselves take....

Tags: Barack Obama, FISA, flip flops, 2008 (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 44 comments

    •  Thanks for (5+ / 0-)

      speaking for guys like my son and his mates in Baghdad that have pinned their hopes on Obama getting elected so we do not end up fighting 40 million shiites from Iran and Iraq when mcCain bombs tehran.

      Of course they could die due to FISA also ,I guess.

      •  My absolute honor to speak for people like your (0+ / 0-)

        son and his friends in Baghdad.  My heart sometimes gets broken up thinking of the seriousness of the military people's plight, and the level of self-importance around here.

        Thank you for everything and hope things turn out well for them.

        I will be doing my absolute best to help them -- I have applied to become an Obama fellow, let us see if they accept.  Even otherwise, I have become more active with our local Dem party and they are all completely aware of the seriousness and are eager for Obama too...

        Don't let them define Obama (NOT a muslim, NO whitey remark): Fight the Smears

        by DraftChickenHawks on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:44:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  This is about as stupidly self-indulgent (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      geejay, luckylizard

      as things can get. We progressives are going to blow it again And then spend another four years complaining about President McCain.

      That's what I really think is going on here. People don't really want the Dems to win and take over. They WANT to be on the losing side of the equation; they're comfortable in their misery. Otherwise they have no existence. This is total self-sabotage over one issue (that can and will be fixed when Obama takes office) when the fate of the whole world is at stake.

      Stupid, stupid, stupid.

      And the Republicans are loving it.

      •  Not So Fast (0+ / 0-)

        I'm fairly progressive and in no way am I happy with supporting a loser. This FISA stuff is just a blip on Obama's electability radar. I think he'll be fine. There is a ton of momentum behind his campaign, whereas McCain's campaign looks like a dingy stranded in the middle of the ocean.

        What we often forget is that the normal voter doesn't even pay one-tenth the attention to this crap as we do. Thankfully, DKOS citizens make up a miniscule fraction of the voting population, or else I'd be worried about morale.

        Beltway wisdom is an oxymoron.

        by kefauver on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:23:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Then let's punt the vote to January (0+ / 0-)

        Surely that solves this matter to the satisfaction of all... and has the advantage of seeing which president we are giving these enhanced powers to, rather than just assuming it is Obama if we vote yes now, which strikes as rather imprudent.

    •  God thank you oh soooooo (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DraftChickenHawks

      much Chickenhawk.. I have been saying this myself . I too can pick up and leave, but it is heart breaking that people  
      that call themselves so called progressives are so self destructive and narrow minded. They can not see the forest through the trees.
      They doom and destroy themselves with overextending their view points,threats, and naive behavior and don't realize that in the end they just fucked themselves again.  

      •  My honor to speak up for (0+ / 0-)

        the men and women in the battlefields and the other struggling souls here too.

        I just wish people who have the time to spend venting here, would learn some perspective in life too.

        They did it to Gore and they are back again, that is what worries me...

        Don't let them define Obama (NOT a muslim, NO whitey remark): Fight the Smears

        by DraftChickenHawks on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:48:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I agree. (13+ / 0-)

    THIS is how we lose elections time after time -- by cannibalizing ourselves, NOT by having our candidates compromise on policy in ways we may not agree with. That's called debate. What DKos is doing is called self-sabotage.

    I'm taking a break from DK for awhole after today, I can't deal with the anti-Obama sentiment that seems to be hijacking this site, largely at the direction of its founder.

  •  not this time not this time (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kefauver, vmm918, amnesiaproletariat

    they will not be allowed to eat OUR own while they stubbornly eat THEIR own
    not this time

    Afterlife? Why would I want that?

    by irrationalbutsane on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:08:52 PM PDT

  •  flip flop hokey pokey nontroversy dance (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JoanMar

    Dear MSM
    In regard to the abundant coverage of the flop flops of Senator Obama......we have advised all your listeners to do the following.  
    (sounds of the hokey pokey play....

    Please follow the instructions carefully

    1.  look up
    1.   see the strings attached to your head,  shoulders, knees and feet?
    1.   cut the strings

    You have been doing the MSM slow news day NONTROVERSY Dance.  

    It was only a test to see if we were paying attention.  Nothing has changed.  

    You are free now.  

    Waiting to be surprised - Zelda Fitzgerald

    by stillonline on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:11:30 PM PDT

  •  We sure do love trashing our own guys (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kefauver, geejay, soms, JoanMar

    when it's general election time.

    On the other hand, it is frustrating as hell that our candidates so often try to distance themselves from us.

    I hate to ride the cliché, but I do agree that at the moment we need to line up behind Barack Obama. The alternative is almost incalculably worse.

    I'm saving up, though. After this election is over, I may be a much noisier and more quarrelsome blogger.

    •  He never pretended: (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      soms

      On the other hand, it is frustrating as hell that our candidates so often try to distance themselves from us.

      He wrote that diary years ago, explaining his views...

      Don't let them define Obama (NOT a muslim, NO whitey remark): Fight the Smears

      by DraftChickenHawks on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:20:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This whole phenomenon (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        soms

        becomes even more interesting when you consider that it hasn't been - indeed is rarely ever - mirrored on the Republican side. McCain used to advertise himself as a kind of centrist; he's spent the run-up to this election prostrating himself before the right-wing ideological temple.

        Why is it that our guys flaunt their "centrism" during elections, but theirs don't?

        Is America really that kind of country? Or is this the product of a tacit agreement in Washington?

        •  I think... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          soms, collidaescope

          ...it is a bit more complicated.  McCain sends out plenty of mixed signals to attract moderates and independents..."swing voters," if you will.  

          In fact, Bush did the same thing.  It is the most obvious in "symbolic" politics, issues that presidential candidates have very little to do with.  For example, same-sex marriage.  What precisely can a president do? A legislator can do quite a bit, a president is limited to a bully pulpit (and vetos, of course).  But Bush would opine that he "had no problem" with legislatures approving civil unions, while stating that if he was still a governor he would not approve of that legislation.

          Well, who cares really? Except later on people read that as "support of civil unions," moderating Bush and giving him a softer image, while preserving base support.

          It is a fascinating strategy. And it often works.  My boyfriend's father was telling me that his problem with McCain is that he isn't "conservative enough," which was why he supported Romney in the primaries.  How can one believe that? Because of this careful kind of strategy.

          McCain goes off the rails when his handlers aren't in control, though.  

    •  if he followed his oath, he would (0+ / 0-)

      not be trashed. Instead, he is breaking his oath of office to support Big Brother legislation. And you support that in the name on unity.

      no wonder our country is in so much trouble.

      What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

      by agnostic on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:29:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If it were my choice (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Kitty, DraftChickenHawks, soms

        I'm sure the Republicans have their ideal choices too. I know a lot of them have no love for McCain. They unify for long enough to win elections, though, because they hate and mistrust our candidates that much.

        I know you want to make our voice heard. I think the time is long overdue for Democrats angry at Democratic candidates to start punishing them. With all the understanding and respect that anger commands, though,  the presidential general election matters has to be a different kind of game. The winner of this election gets veto power, and we only have two more years of Congressional majority. We need to make them count for something (even if we spend the next two years primarying stooges like Steny Hoyer). Plus, it should be obvious to anyone who is watching McCain that he is dangerously incompetent and can't be allowed access to the controls of the country. There is stuff at stake here on a scale with FISA.

      •  What's this got to do with unity? (0+ / 0-)

        Trashing the nominee of the party has nothing whatever to do with unity.  It has everything to do with keeping perspective.  Plus again, I am not objecting to a little criticism here.  It is hyperbolic "I am going to withhold funds from him, I am not going to work for his election, I am not voting for him" self-destructive (actually, it is more destructive to others, really) self-indulgence is what I questioning.

        Really, what does all this serve anyhow?  We have now made it impossible for him to even think about changing his stance, by going so vocal and so public and so virulent against him in a most personal fashion.  Every network has been going for several news cycles about the dubious numbers on his own web site.  

        Don't let them define Obama (NOT a muslim, NO whitey remark): Fight the Smears

        by DraftChickenHawks on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 06:56:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "self-monitoring"... (0+ / 0-)

      ...is a better way of looking at it, IMO.  Every time I read another "we have to suck it up and vote Obama" diary, I wonder what it would be like if we simply became yes men/women for all Democrats, publicly agreeing with all their talking points in order to maximize our chances to win elections.

      Oh wait, I know what it would be like - we'd be Republicans.

      (-4.88, -3.74) Treat everyone as they deserve - and who doesn't deserve a whipping?! -Hamlet 2:2

      by pakaal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 04:44:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did you even read the diary fully? (0+ / 0-)

        You can't really be serious about the yes people charge after you have read the diary.

        Think beyond your own tastes -- there are people out there who are really hurting, it is not just a matter of what pleases your sensibilities, not this time.

        Don't let them define Obama (NOT a muslim, NO whitey remark): Fight the Smears

        by DraftChickenHawks on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:02:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Is it the only defense... (0+ / 0-)

          ...of folks faced with someone who has a different viewpoint, that "you didn't read my diary"?

          Seriously, do you know how dense you sound when writing that?  If you can't come up with a reasoned response to a differing viewpoint, and rely instead on saying that person didn't understand what you wrote, why bother answering at all?

          My "tastes" have nothing to do with this discussion, we're talking about criticism of candidates, not wine-tasting, and frankly, as a person (unlike yourself) who is jobless and wondering how to manage rent and bills, I'd say I have more stake in what we're talking about here than you, who:

          "...can afford to uproot myself and go anywhere in the world if I get too upset with the workings of this country"

          Some of us live here from pride, not convenience, keep that in mind.  Perhaps if you had more invested in seeing this country heal, you might understand where the criticism comes from.

          (-4.88, -3.74) Treat everyone as they deserve - and who doesn't deserve a whipping?! -Hamlet 2:2

          by pakaal on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 01:50:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Single issue (7+ / 0-)

    political fanaticism always scares me.  I have my 'hot topics' too, but I do try to keep the big picture in perspective.  And the big picture is:
    Obama or McCain?
    No-brainer!

    Some people are like the blind man who stole and ate his own chicken!
    Tadeusz Rittner (1873-1921)

    -6.62/-6.82 He can talk all he wants about Britney and Paris, but I don't have time for that mess.-B. Obama

    by politik on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:18:16 PM PDT

  •  PURITY HOUNDS? Big Brother vs. our (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pakaal, dykester

    CONSTITUTION?

    nice framing. But, wrong.

    He, and 99 others, took an oath to preserve and protect that document. He is failing to do so, as are a great number of others. Should we make a stink?: You bet. If we do, we can convince him of the error of his ways. We put the GOP on notice that no more attacks on the constitution are acceptable. And we show the great unwashed, the vast majority who are bored by early politics, that BIG BROTHER will NOT be visiting their homes or cell phones.

    Purity hounds? my ass.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:28:27 PM PDT

    •  Do you want to win or not? (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Fury, DraftChickenHawks, soms

      I didn't vote for Obama, but he won fair and square, so he's the nominee.  Trashing him now is too late to do any good.  We will hurt him down the road if we keep this up...

      No politician ever lost an election by underestimating the intelligence of the American public. PT Barnum, paraphrased...

      by jarhead5536 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:43:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Calling Obama a coward . . (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kefauver, DraftChickenHawks

      is being a purity hound.

      That's what Kos did today.

      Telling him he's wrong is not being a purity hound, and in that I include maybe giving him a little less and certain Congressional candidates a little more this fall.  Telling he's wrong, including in these substantive ways, is constructive criticism.

      But calling him a coward?  Cutting him off?  Puh-leeze.  In moral terms, those actions provide aid and comfort to McCain's election campaign.

  •  Pushback on FISA purity has already started. (5+ / 0-)

    The blogosphere flubbed on FISA by going a bit overboard the last couple weeks, but let's get Obama's back now on a NEW problem that is emerging today.  The media is trying to make it look like Obama is changing on Iraq.  The Obama administration, as he reiterated, will STILL bring our troops home from Iraq.  The media is trying to create a shitstorm here.  <b>In the blogosphere, let's get Obama's back on the Iraq issue.</b>  Let's show that we, you know, actually still care about electing our Democratic nominee for President.
  •  The blogosphere will lose more than Obama (4+ / 0-)

    in the end. We had a chance here and we are destroying it. People will be losing credibility when all is said and done.

    Bob Marley: Don't let them fool ya. Or even try to school ya...

    by JoanMar on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:43:39 PM PDT

  •  BTW, where is everybody? Obama under attack (3+ / 0-)

    and nobody comes out to help him? Under attack unfairly  at that. Where is Pelosi? Edwards? Reid? I am  so sorry that Teddy is sick because I know that the old warrior would be on the forefront.

    Bob Marley: Don't let them fool ya. Or even try to school ya...

    by JoanMar on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 03:46:05 PM PDT

  •  quoting Lyndon Johnson (6+ / 0-)

    "You know what the biggest difference between liberals and cannibals is?  Cannibals only eat their enemies."

    (Quote is probably off and possibly entirely made-up.)

  •  A little off topic, but (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DraftChickenHawks

    I got to thinking about AT&T's connection to cable TV. It seems only natural, with all the financial connections between telecoms and the MSM, that there isn't going to be any substantive coverage or media outrage over FISA; and that there will be negative coverage of those who oppose telecom immunity. Really an uphill battle.

  •  If I Order the Purity Puppies... (0+ / 0-)

    ...does that come with a side of Fries?

  •  What can you do. (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Kitty, DraftChickenHawks, rsmpdx

    From what I've seen....purists love the attack.It could just be that they need to feel slighted so that they can attack something/anything.And to be able to attack one of their own--well that is just icing on the cake for them.

    As long as they can attack - they seem to feel a purpose, so they will I imagine always be on the look out for things that can arouse their ardor.  They will often settle for half-truths or outright fabrications if the real deal is not available--As witnessed by many,they have also mastered the ability to contort a persons position into something it was never meant to be.

    Wouldn't it be nice if they attacked McCain a little more often and with as much ferocity.

    I think Obama would do well to distance himself from these,the glass is always half empty, perpetual gloom and doomers--when the time is right.

  •  Laughing my ass off. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    DarkMysteri

    All because a couple of telecom companies might get away with cooperating with the heavy hand of the Government,

    Those poor telecom companies... why must they be so abused? Sure, they killed their husband with a gun, but it was only after years of physical and emotional abuse. We have the hospital records that show they had broken ribs every 3 months, hell, there is even a 911 transcript that shows police were called out because neighbors thought he'd kill the poor telecoms.

    Oh. Wait.

    This is comedy gold. I oughtta write a book. I could title it Infinite Rationalizations: Why they're eager to compromise on principle and incapable softening on non-issues. Wouldn't even have to do much writing, really... I could just pull quotes from here.

    •  I know, this is the tragedy. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      collidaescope

      It is all laughter and indulgence for you.  The point that I was making is that if I were to put the offending telcos on one side and balanced it with 100 million people who need a Democrat in the WH on the other, I would choose the latter any day of the week, without even thinking about it for a nano-second.

      How about you?  That is not merely facetious or rhetorical -- if your answer is the same as mine, then you have a serious decision to make about the tactics you are so pleased to use.  Using unnecessary sarcasm is a poke in the eye to the people we are supposed to be championing.  

      This isn't about Obama any more.  It is the Democratic party nominee, he is the only alternative we have to lunacy for 4 more years.  Which one would you prefer?  If your answer is the former, then shouldn't you be working towards it, rather than making it well nigh impossible for him to win?

      Don't let them define Obama (NOT a muslim, NO whitey remark): Fight the Smears

      by DraftChickenHawks on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 07:15:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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