Open Thread

July 4, 1826
On that date, our nation's second president lay dying. Over the difficult course of his presidency and the years that immediately followed, his friendship with Thomas Jefferson had been terribly strained. But a bit at a time, through voluminous correspondence that stretched over decades, the bond between the two men had been restored.

In his last moments, John Adams' thoughts turned to his friend. His final words were "Jefferson survives." He did not know that Jefferson -- his rival, his enemy, and his great friend -- had preceded him in death only a few hours before.

It was the 50th anniversary of the adoption of the Declaration of Independence.

Recommended diaries at  9 pm, Friday, Jul 04, 2008
:

Mission Actually Accomplished        by Jerome a Paris    "Help me, please, I’m dying." Updated        by Jeffersonian Democrat    4th Self-Pity Rant by Soon-to-be Blue Star Mom        by Moesse    Happy birthday, Malia Obama        by Carnacki    John Edwards to Debate Karl Rove        by MLDB    Early warning - The time to prepare is now.        by Granny Doc    Saying Goodbye ... And a New Beginning        by judith2007    The Mirrors of Reason        by One Pissed Off Liberal

•  Happy 4th...

  

  by Lava20 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:42:03 PM PDT

  •  Jibber away!

    

    by Patch Adam on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:43:00 PM PDT

•  For anyone interested

  please go watch the Space Policy Debate that happened at ISDC.  There was a rep from Senator Obama and a rep from Senator McCain

  I realize I sound like a broken record, but I think everyone really should see it, so that they understand my concern about Obama's position with regard to manned spaceflight

  by FerrisValyn on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:45:26 PM PDT

  •  And while you're at it

    why not consider reading Troubadour's diary about Space, or donate to Obama through the Space Policy Advisory Group, by clicking the sig line

    by FerrisValyn on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:47:18 PM PDT

  •  can ya gimme a short sweet intro? like

    what's the hubbub? bub

    by deutschluz on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:47:40 PM PDT

    •  Its about Space Policy :D

      ISDC stand for International Space Development Conference, and, as you can guess from the title, its about Space Development - it is the premier space event of the year - any big name you care to mention usually attends - Buzz Aldrin, Burt Rutan, Richard Branson, Mike Griffin, Nick Lamspon, Miles O'Brein.

      Anyway, if you have the energy to read my diaries (or have read them) you'll see and note that there is substantial concern about Senator Obama, and his position on human spaceflight.  There are many in the space community who fear that he is anti-human spaceflight.

      Anyway, being the big space event of the year, and being an election year, the National Space Society invited reps from the various campaigns to attend and engage in a space policy debate - it had reps from Senator Obama, Senator McCain, and Senator Clinton (it happened before she dropped out, although I JUST found the link).  Anyway, his representative didn't do much to alleviate those fears.  And there is a lot that space development can do for us, in the very near term.

      Enough of an intro?

      by FerrisValyn on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:58:44 PM PDT

  •  I'm listen to the program...

    ...as I type.  The intros just finished and, sweet jebus, who is the dim bulb McBush sent to the conference?  If he was suppose to win over the conference they would have done just as well sending a Luddite.  I'm surprised they weren't throwing vegetables.

    by carver on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:14:11 PM PDT

•  Hooray!! The last 4th under W!

  

  by dharmafarmer on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:47:29 PM PDT

  •  Wow!!!!!!!!!

    Excellent point.  My day just got even better!

    by Lava20 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:49:55 PM PDT

    •  VERY EXCELLENT POINT! n/t

      by America08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:00:58 PM PDT

  •  Provided that

    there's not a "national emergency", like the GOP losing the elections badly a significant terrorist attack.

    by wondering if on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:48:56 PM PDT

  •  maybe

    some chickens come home to roost, others haven't hatched yet ..

    by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:36:51 PM PDT

•  my July 4th diary earlier today

  was entitled ... a new nation, conceived in liberty

  I try to weave a number of ideas together.  You are hereby invited to read, to add to the discussion, etc.

  Peace.

  by teacherken on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:47:54 PM PDT

•  In Memory of Jesse Helms

  who passed away today, a true story:

  During the 1990s, I was talking to a Senate staffer in one of the Senate office buildings (maybe Hart). Suddenly a regally herldic chorus of trumpets sounded from the lobby. I asked what was going on and the staffer replied: "Senator Helms has entered the building."

  by Ohiobama on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:49:50 PM PDT

  •  i was hoping to get away from the canonization of

    helms thats going on in the media by coming here!

    by deutschluz on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:55:04 PM PDT

    •  Sorry the memory is humorous

      not cannonizing. The sarcasm was inherent in the staffer's comment. I guess you had to be there.

      by Ohiobama on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:57:44 PM PDT

    •  are they really deifying that man?

      unbelievable.

      just unbelievable.

      _______________

      it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

      -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

      by dadanation on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:55:16 PM PDT

•  Ridiculous fireworks 2 houses down from me

  Just had to run into the yard to see the end of the show. w0000000t!

  by Ivey476 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:52:08 PM PDT

•  I am wondering today if Harvey Gantt

  had defeated Jesse Helms, would the last eight years have happened.

  by gougef on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:54:09 PM PDT

•  Maryland 3rd District

  Dear Friends,

         Since coming to Congress, I have made constituent outreach a top priority.  I believe that the best way to represent you in Washington is through an open discussion about the most pressing issues facing America today.

  *        On Monday, July 7th at 7:10 P.M., I will be holding a Virtual Town Hall, via telephone, so that I can answer your questions and share my thoughts on how wecan work together to fix the problems facing Maryland's Third Congressional District.

         To participate in Mondays Virtual Town Hall, please call 1-866-447-5149 and, when prompted, enter # 12965 as your PIN.

         If you are unable to participate in my Virtual Town Hall but still wish to share your questions, comments or concerns, please call my district office at 410-832-8890 or contact me through my website www.sarbanes.house.gov.

  John P. Sarbanes

  by dharmafarmer on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:54:59 PM PDT

•  Independence Day may have been later than the 4th

  of July if it hadn't been for this Founding Father.

  by FoundingFatherDAR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:55:21 PM PDT

  •  I always liked Ben Franklin

    But occasionally, I am the epitome of dumb-ass.

    Liked John Adams too, especially after I read David McCoullough's treatise on his life.

    The people that brought the United States of America into being were not a breed apart.

    Just a bunch of men that got pissed-off and  did something to assuage their "pissedoffedness."

    I love those dead guys to no end.

    by SecondComing on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:42:04 PM PDT

•  Would that we could all have enemies...

  ...as good as those.

  by DawnG on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:56:57 PM PDT

•  Happy 4th to America.

  Everyone a great and safe weekend.

  

  by America08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:59:38 PM PDT

  •  How exquisitely beautiful!

    Thank you.

    by dharmafarmer on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:03:48 PM PDT

  •  Rosa

    "Madame A. Meilland", the Peace Rose.

    In June of 1939, an international conference of rose hybridizers was held in Lyon. When it visited the Meilland firm, this was the rose that everyone noticed. Several months later when the Nazi invasion of France seemed imminent, Francis Meilland sent budwood of the plant to rose growers that he knew in Turkey, Germany, Italy, and the U.S.

    When Robert Pyle of Conard-Pyle received the eyes, he propagated plants, and sent them to the American Rose Society for testing. In 1944 after France was liberated, Pyle wrote to Meilland, explaining that he planned to release the plants once the war ended.

    He chose the name ‘Peace’ for the name-giving ceremony at the Pacific Rose Society Annual Exhibition on April 29, 1945, the very day that Berlin fell. That same year, Dr. Ray Allen, secretary of the American Rose Society, sent each of the 49 delegations at the inaugural meeting of the United Nations in San Francisco a single, long-stemmed ‘Peace’ rose with the following note, "We hope the ‘Peace’ rose will influence men’s thoughts for everlasting world peace."

    http://www.suite101.com/...

    by crose on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:17:45 PM PDT

•  Nat. mall trashed. Needs $250M. Drug rescue $250M

  So US spent $250M getting its black opps drug "contractors" out of Colombia.

  Article today that the National Mall is a disaster of trash and crumbling infrastructure in need of....ta da....$250M.

  Now if we hadn't spent $250M putting the drug war "contractors" into Colombia we wouldn't have needed to spend $250M getting them out of Colombia. US would have saved $500M, fixed up national mall with money left over to fix up some public schools or public health clinics.

  by Tuscany on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:59:44 PM PDT

  •  If Americans didn't waste $ on illegal drugs

    they could contribute that $ for the benefit of schools and parks upkeep.  But then all the drug dealers would have to find another way to make a living.

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:15:03 PM PDT

    •  And the Police-Military Economy nt

      by Gooserock on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:35:37 PM PDT

    •  Or legal drugs or dog food or bottled water...eh?

      If drugs were treated as a health issue, US saves $100B in money spent on drugs, $40B on cost of enforcement, $100B on health costs of drugs.

      The $250M spent tracking down two drug war contractors in Colombia after spending $250M to have them go to Colombia to teach paramilitary drug "police" who knows what (torture, spying?) is how those billion$ add up.

      by Tuscany on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:40:07 PM PDT

      •  Drugs needs to be made available

        in legal and maximally safe forms.

        This means marijuana without being mixed with tobacco.

        For cocaine and opiates, this means a beverage like the original formula cola or an opiate soda available in various strengths based on a hospital blood level test.

        For past opiate beverage purchasers that desire to taper off, a month supply of two-litter bottles with tapered and labeled amounts should be made available on monthly request.

        No jail (except for robbery, DUI, etc.)

        No treatment, except upon user request

        Only drugs as safe as they can be made available to people with government ID showing them to be at least 18 years of age or holding a doctor's prescription for tapered solutions

        by SingleVoter on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 11:21:26 AM PDT

•  As if we were there:

  

  by GOTV on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:00:55 PM PDT

  •  Somehow can't imagine any of our Founding

    Fathers waffling on a bill like FISA.

    by Phil S 33 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:03:47 PM PDT

    •  The funny thing about our founding fathers...

      When you go to make arguments saying "our founding fathers wouldn't agree to that" or "our founding fathers would suppor that" is that our founding fathers weren't really in agreement about much of anything.

      Some founding fathers favored slavery, some didn't.
      Some founding fathers favored a monarchistic president, some didn't.
      Some founding fathers favored liberal views of civil rights, some didn't.
      Some founding fathers favored capitalism, some didn't.

      Our constitution is the end result of a great deal of compromise and middle ground between very different and very diverse viewpoints.

      For just about everything you can probably find a founding father that supported or denounced it.

      by DawnG on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:08:58 PM PDT

      •  Say it Sister!!!

        n/t

        by BigOkie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:12:09 PM PDT

      •  they were human

        and markedly upper class, protecting their own interests

        What is awesome about this country is that the 'lower classes' fought (and are still fighting) to make the American dream applicable to everyone

        by Krush on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:16:44 PM PDT

      •  So very true, DawnG. However, that said;

        once the Constitution principles were established--would they then have turned on it with something like the FISA bill----I think not.  There would be much discussion; but in the end they would uphold the basic tenets of the paper they agreed to.

        by Phil S 33 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:20:48 PM PDT

        •  probably not.

          But I have a hard time when people frame arguments based on what the founding fathers would have wanted as if it were a singular, objective fact.

          Besides, this isn't THEIR country anymore, it's ours.  We are the ones that have to live in it.  What matters most is what we want for our country.

          by DawnG on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:23:16 PM PDT

          •  Good point!!

            by Phil S 33 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:24:16 PM PDT

        •  Oh, really?

          Funny, then, that some of those same founding fathers drafted, signed into law, and faithfully executed the Alien and Sedition Acts.

          To wit:

          SEC. 2. And be it farther enacted, That if any person shall write, print, utter or publish, or shall cause or procure to be written, printed, uttered or published, or shall knowingly and willingly assist or aid in writing, printing, uttering or publishing any false, scandalous and malicious writing or writings against the government of the United States, or either house of the Congress of the United States, or the President of the United States, with intent to defame the said government, or either house of the said Congress, or the said President, or to bring them, or either of them, into contempt or disrepute; or to excite against them, or either or any of them, the hatred of the good people of the United States, or to stir up sedition within the United States, or to excite any unlawful combinations therein, for opposing or resisting any law of the United States, or any act of the President of the United States, done in pursuance of any such law, or of the powers in him vested by the constitution of the United States, or to resist, oppose, or defeat any such law or act, or to aid, encourage or abet any hostile designs of any foreign nation against United States, their people or government, then such person, being thereof convicted before any court of the United States having jurisdiction thereof, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars, and by imprisonment not exceeding two years.

          Can you show me the part of FISA that even approaches the damage to the "basic tenents of the paper they agreed to" contained in that snippet alone?

          by kingubu on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:42:30 PM PDT

      •  And worse

        Our founding "fathers" — nary a mention of the unburnt women and (other) slaves that allowed them to make history — are long dead, which means they didn't benefit from the centuries of evolution in social and political thought that have brought us to the glimmer of hope we are experiencing now.  Let's let these poor men off the hook and make a new world that isn't mired in their mythology.

        by dhaemeon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:21:12 PM PDT

    •  Times were different then

      Then, they had the "luxury" of proclaiming their cause just and pure, or so it seems. Recall that it was only two decades after the drafting and issuing of the Declaration of Independence that Adams signed the Alien and Sedition Acts, arguably the most vile laws ever promulgated.  

      by GOTV on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:09:44 PM PDT

      •  They Were 3 Light-Months From Developed Countries

        They had no mass media, nothing resembling modern corporations, boundless resources, and probably the most democratically-owned economy we would ever have.

        I think Hartmann said few if any of the founders were the equivalent of modern millionaires.

        by Gooserock on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:38:11 PM PDT

    •  Let's not forget the Alien and Sedition Acts

      Put in place by John Adams and his ilk (I realize our country owes him a lot, but the Federalists have always seemed very Republican to me).  See Wikipedia article.  The Sedition Act was a particularly extraordinary piece of work, a much more blatant breach of the 1st amendment than FISA is of the 4th.

      So, waffling, maybe not (I bet some of them did, though).  Supporting, yes.  Attacks on the Constitution are as old as the Constitution itself.  

      by shenderson on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:27:14 PM PDT

•  Happy 4th, everybody.

  I'd rather be here with the people who truly love America than watching some fireworks I've seen before. Well, ok, I watched just a few.

  Peace to you all.

  by Peace JD on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:04:23 PM PDT

•  Just like Adams...

  ...he couldn't take his leave without being just a little off about one last thing.  A neat bookend to his predictions about how the Second of July would be celebrated by future generations.

  (The above is written with full admiration for Adam's considerable virtues.  Seems like in every book I've ever read on the Revolution, when the author need a pithy and insightful quote, it came from John Adams.)

  by Roddy McCorley on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:04:47 PM PDT

•  Can't stop watching Ingrid Betancourt

  Given all the crappy news on lately, I just love watching her greet her kids over and over.  And now I can watch the video of her being rescued.  Viva Colombia!  If only our missions were that successful...

  by kimtcga on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:04:48 PM PDT

  •  Talk about your independence . . .

    by GOTV on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:15:27 PM PDT

•  Krauthammer Claims Obamas Now A War Monger

  Some willful, neigh, exuberant stupidity going on there. Be sure to show him some love.

  by bernardpliers on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:07:23 PM PDT

  •  Not worth the click to give him satisfaction...

    by Phil S 33 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:08:54 PM PDT

  •  So pray tell how does one Mong War? nt

    by JML9999 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:33:53 PM PDT

  •  They had best be careful, lest their

    their little bobbling heads snap clean off off from the wild gyrations.

    by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:34:44 PM PDT

•  Granted, there was no precision lawn mower team

  this year, but the Takoma Park, Maryland 4th of July parade is awesome: it started with a guy in a Hillary t-shirt waving a huge banner for Obama, followed by all the local pols (Chris Van Hollen, for one, and one of our State Representatives holding hands with her girlfriend as she walked), and then the rest of the TP crowd: Bolivian dancers, bilingual Montessori school kids, West African drummers, the stop-the-slots group, the coast guard, the group protesting the new development by the metro station, the steel band, the crowd from Ethiopia, the bagpipers, etc. etc. all the while the people next to me on the curb were discussing vegan cooking and how to run your house on wind power.  Takoma Park, the granola capitol of the world.

  by peregrina on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:10:25 PM PDT

•  Who are the Founders of today?

  Much as I admire the Founders of our country, I have to assume that they were very much men and women like ourselves. The talents and tenacity and restraint and foresight they demonstrated were remarkable. But nature is still churning out amazing human beings, and we are made of the same stuff.

  So who are the Founders among us today? Or is there no cause so great as Independence to bring those talents to the fore with such intensity and drama?

  by Hudson on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:12:10 PM PDT

  •  Absolutely None of the Same Conditions Exist

    The colonies were 3 message-months from the nearest advanced nation. Our entire economy is integrated with offshore owners in realtime, at the speed of light.

    The colonies' people were their economy, most of which was family farming and harvesting with a smattering of microbusinesses. Our people are largely employees of a globally owned economy, they're increasingly a cost to be minimized.

    The colonies were ruled by a remote bureaucracy and needed "only" to win independence from a somewhat distracted, very remote government. We're under an economy and increasingly authoritarian omnipresent state apparatus that knows how we feel and think before we do.

    The colonials were faced with the prospect of creating a new forward-looking form of government while we're struggling to restore as much as we can of one that was finalized a century before flush toilets and two centuries before the globalized free trade economy.

    It's kind of a case of comparing apples to space shuttles.

    by Gooserock on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:46:23 PM PDT

    •  Many Americans were heavily

      indebted to the London business class.

      Other Americans were bound by chains of iron.

      Most manufactured goods were imported.

      We ran a trade deficit with China.

      by SingleVoter on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 11:31:59 AM PDT

•  July 4, 1826 our 2nd AND 3rd presidents lay dying

  Adams and Jefferson were both dying on July 4th.

  The founding of US was such twist of fate itself. Adams and Jefferson, two of its leading creators, dying at the same time seemed like fate putting a capstone on the creation.

  by Tuscany on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:13:46 PM PDT

  •  And, on the 50th anniversary of the declaration

    If you made it up in a movie critics would say it was too contrived.  Truly amazing.

    by St Louis Woman on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:21:14 PM PDT

  •  The strange ironies of the

    making of this nation can cause chicken skin when I think of them. That they did what they did with what they had, is still a strange kind of miracle. As I write this, a brand new bald eagle is sitting in a neighboring cottonwood, kiyying for mom or dad to feed her a trout. I have watched her parents feed and care for her since early May--they have flown over my house daily from nest to river and back, tirelessly feeding that daughter. They selected certain sticks over others so the nest would be strong. It was high up so predators couldn't reach it, and it was lined with down from both parent's breasts. Eagles are not fierce or violent parents like robins, who spend a lot of time and energy harassing other birds even as their own babies wait in the nest. Eagles work hard all day, hunting, feeding, cleaning and encouraging their young ones, and they sometimes fledge only one. They play, too, as smarter birds do: using the thermals to soar for the sake of soaring, dancing together by flipping up and grasping each others' feet and then falling together--I have seen fledglings do this with a parent so I know it is play.

    Franklin wanted the turkey as our national symbol. Bold birds they can be, but mostly out of stupidity. They will walk along and lay eggs as they pass, leaving them for predators, fleeing themselves if a  fox or coyote threatens their chicks. Eagles were a perfect choice. Not without humor, they are hard-working parents, unconcerned with wars with their neighbors but they will protect their own fiercly and without anger. My aquilian friends have fed their daughter the last fish of the day, still tearing it up and handing chunks of it to her with a gentleness that brings tears to my eyes.

    Jefferson survives. Adams survives, Washington survives. That old wordsmith Franklin survives. We are the new founding fathers and mothers, and we will survive.  

    by crose on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:44:16 PM PDT

  •  It Was My Understanding That

    Adams's utterance of "Jefferson lives" was part of a (friendly) rivalry in which he hoped to outlive Jefferson.  

    "Jefferson lives" was his his expression of the belief that he had not met that goal, when in fact he had.

    by karateexplosions on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:33:31 PM PDT

•  WHOOHOO!!

  

  

  
  My Heroine

  by Terre on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:18:22 PM PDT

•  Happy Fourth. ...I just posted an open msg

  to Speaker Pelosi.

  Check it out here.

  ...was it too harsh?  Off-the-beaten-path?

  Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
    Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
  Tempest even in reason's seat.

  by GreyHawk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:22:02 PM PDT

•  HELP!!

  Trying to embed a YouTube video, that doesn't seem to be showing up on my preview! Worked for me earlier today.  Anyone else having issues?

  by Terre on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:22:21 PM PDT

  •  Testing 1234

    Sample HTML

    ><replaced with )(</p>

    (object width="425" height="344")(param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GeC_phVOdnw&hl=en&fs=1")(/param)(param name="allowFullScreen" value="true")(/param)(embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GeC_phVOdnw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344")(/embed)(/object)

    by JML9999 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:30:40 PM PDT

    •  OK - Lemme try it again

      Bush tours America (If you can see it ENJOY!)  Otherwise, see it here.

      Well damn, I don't see where the difference is.  This is what I've copied and pasted [with the ()]:

      (object width="425" height="344")(param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/aEURwsrUSQ&hl=en&fs=1")(/param)(param name="allowFullScreen" value="true")(/param)(embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/aEURwsrUSQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344")(/embed)(/object)

      Here's the error message I get:

      Your HTML has the following errors:
      Attribute value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ for tag param is not allowed"
      Attribute src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ for tag embed is not allowed"

      Had to add a > at the end of em in the error message above for it to show up completely.  How odd.

      by Terre on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:14:32 PM PDT

      •  Retest with your HTML

        It can't find this video from your original HTML
        http://www.youtube.com/...

        So I kept your HTML and substituted only the video URL
        http://www.youtube.com/...

        by JML9999 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:46:45 PM PDT

        •  Well, let's see

          The first link you have is missing an "(underscore)" and should be http://www.youtube.com/...

          Trying another one:

          Out of curiosity, I tried another Onion video and as you can see, it works just fine.  I eyeballed both codes (the one showing above and the one that doesn't work) and they are identical except for the file name.

          Why the heck the other one won't work is beyond me.

          by Terre on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:43:40 PM PDT

•  Those two rivals

  were the nucleus of our Nation.  From their disagreements came clarity of purpose.  Never underestimate either of them, regardless of what side of the political spectrum that you inhabit.  Warmest regards, Doc.

  by Translator on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:22:49 PM PDT

•  Dying on July 4th lost its meaning...

  ... since Jesse Helms took a big dump on it.

  The Freepers are comparing him to Jefferson and Adams already. Someone gag me.

  by OReillysNightmare on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:27:30 PM PDT

  •  one of the most evil men i have ever witnessed

    in my entire life.

    who was whistling "dixie" in the senate elevator to carol mosley-braun because he wanted to make her "cry."  helms.

    who declared on the senate flor that nominee for asst sec of HUD roberta achtenberg was a "damned lesbian." helms.

    who is legend for his anti-gay men tirades on the senate floor?  helms.

    who authored the language creating the ban on hiv+ travelers, the now codified HIV+ travel and immigration policy?  helms.

    who authored the language prohibiting the use of federal funds for HIV prevention programs that "promote" homosexuality or IV drug use?  helms.

    who, following the death of ryan white, did NOT vote for the ryan white care act - named in ryan's honor -- (the bill to provide emergency, primary medical- and ancillary services to people with aids in the US who were low income and uninsured)? helms.

    when he ostensibly apologized for his ill-informed aids-specific senatorial actions -- when he was hugged and embraced by bono -- he never once apologized for all the harm he caused gay men and injection drug users IN THIS COUNTRY.

    not once.

    he apologized for how his lack of awareness hurt folks abroad.

    while i wish his family peace in this moment of sadness and loss and i saw first-hand him in action and find any comparisons of him to any of the elder statesmen of this nation or its founders to be beyond the pale.

    _______________

    it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

    -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

    by dadanation on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:54:06 PM PDT

    •  from America blog

       
      http://www.americablog.com/...

       As an aide to the 1950 Senate campaign of North Carolina Republican candidate Willis Smith, Helms reportedly helped create attack ads against Smith's opponent, including one which read: "White people, wake up before it is too late. Do you want Negroes working beside you, your wife and your daughters, in your mills and factories? Frank Graham favors mingling of the races." Another ad featured photographs Helms himself had doctored to illustrate the allegation that Graham's wife had danced with a black man. (The News and Observer, 8/26/01; The New Republic, 6/19/95; The Observer, 5/5/96; Hard Right: The Rise of Jesse Helms, by Ernest B. Furgurson, Norton, 1986)

         The University of North Carolina was "the University of Negroes and Communists." (Capital Times, 11/22/94) Black civil rights activists were "Communists and sex perverts." (Copley News Service, 8/23/01)

         Of civil rights protests Helms wrote, "The Negro cannot count forever on the kind of restraint that's thus far left him free to clog the streets, disrupt traffic, and interfere with other men's rights." (WRAL-TV commentary, 1963) He also wrote, "Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are a fact of life which must be faced." (New York Times, 2/8/81)

      Helms on "degenerate, weak, sick homosexuals":

         Over the years Helms has declared homosexuality "degenerate," and homosexuals "weak, morally sick wretches." (Newsweek, 12/5/94) In a tirade highlighting his routine opposition to AIDS research funding, Helms lashed out at the Kennedy-Hatch AIDS bill in 1988: "There is not one single case of AIDS in this country that cannot be traced in origin to sodomy." (States News Service, 5/17/88)

      Helms being a racist:

         And the man ABC News now describes as a "conservative icon" (8/22/01) in 1993 sang "Dixie" in an elevator to Carol Moseley-Braun, the first African-American woman elected to the Senate, bragging, "I'm going to make her cry. I'm going to sing Dixie until she cries." (Chicago Sun-Times, 8/5/93)

      Helms filibusters making Martin Luther King day a national holiday:

         A year before the election, when public polls showed Helms trailing by 20 points, he launched a Senate filibuster against the bill making the birthday of Martin Luther King Jr. a national holiday. (David Broder, Washington Post, Aug, 29, 2001)

      Someone here posted that when Martin was shot, this remarkable person said [paraphrasing, because I cannot find the exact quote] 'that's one less turd breathing in my air' ..

      I must say, I usually try to contain myself when there is a death, but this man deserves every quote he ever uttered to be replayed for the world to recoil in horror.
      
      They say, as the old expression goes, if you cannot speak good of the dead, then hold your tongue.

      To that I have to say.

      Jesse Helms is dead.
      Good.

      by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:26:02 PM PDT

      •  i was quite measured in my post

        and i sat here torn, between saying nothing or posting something.

        i sincerely do hope that those who loved him find the requisite comfort and peace -- i just also wish that he had shown to the thousands of people he intentionally hurt even an iota of decency.

        they deserved better than he is getting.

        _______________

        it's their screen name because they couldn't figure out how to spell "moran."

        -9.75 (e), -7.18 (s)

        by dadanation on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:54:07 PM PDT

•  America

  by lockewasright on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:37:36 PM PDT

•  Does Bush celebrate Nero's Birthday Dec.15th?

  He should to honor his role model

  by Lefty Coaster on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:09:56 PM PDT

•  outright lies on CNN

  http://www.cnn.com/...

  Some Clinton supporters still not embracing Obama, poll says
  Posted: 04:40 PM ET

  From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney

  I posted a comment, but they refused to print it.

  If you go and look at the pdf of the poll, the questions in sequence are basically the 'when did you stop beating your wife' push poll type.

  CNN and Gallup are serial liars, unfit to be called journalists. All they are interested in doing is getting people to click on the headline.

  This guy Mooney is a serial liar. Anything that helps reinforce the media heathers and beltway bubbleheads as they spew their media lies is good enough for this 'reporter', I guess. Filthy hack shill piece of shit.

  by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:14:12 PM PDT

  •  So where was the lie and how did you refute it?

    I get it, you were irritated by the wording in the poll.

    How is this "outright" if it is even a lie though.

    Post CNN's claim then refute it with evidence.  I learned to swear a long time ago...later I learned to communicate.

    by Paid Troll on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:24:49 PM PDT

    •  wonderful username

      as I indicated, "If you go and look at the pdf of the poll, the questions in sequence are basically the 'when did you stop beating your wife' push poll type."

      They must not have paid you enough to learn how to read read yet, troll.

      You should ask for a raise.

      by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:38:23 PM PDT

      •  My pay

        is off the books as I am an illegal, and I have little bargaining power against my oppressive boss.  

        I went to the link and it is an article about a poll and there are hundreds of statements. Which one are you saying is a lie?  Post a link to the poll itself or cut and paste the wife beating question.  BTW Obama did beat Bill's wife.  

        by Paid Troll on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:46:45 PM PDT

    •  Here, Troll

      decide for yourself

      http://i2.cdn.turner.com/...

      by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:41:10 PM PDT

      •  Ok I read the pdf

        and I don't see your point.  The resulting info off each question show little difference.  Obama was favored.  AND (I am a conservative) I cannot imagine any liberal voting for Johnboy out of spite over Hill not being the nominee. Maybe on a key issue like national security or a surprise this fall but nobody is really mad enough to screw their party over this.

        by Paid Troll on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:52:08 PM PDT

•  I have to say, the situation about discussing two

  things recently have me re-thinking what is 'acceptable discourse'.

  One is John McCain's military service and his complete record of same. Where is the complete record of John McCain's military service, starting with his graduation from the US Naval Academy ranked 894th out of a class of 899?

  The other is the death of Jesse Helms and how the convention of not speaking ill of the dead is held to some sort of 'standard'. How many days should we let elapse before we can speak about the horrible pain and suffering he forced upon so many people in this country? Do we sit shiva for this remarkable human being before we can let loose? 48 hours? A month? This man's death was not sudden, like Tim Russert's.

  When is it appropriate finally to describe and relate all of things Jess Helms tried to do, as he foisted a burning cross metaphorically into the consciousness of the United States Senate?

  by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:32:41 PM PDT

  •  Most of the comments, including...

    ...my own, haven't been giving a significant pause out of respect.  Helms was a mean, unrepentant, racist asshole who would never get respect from me - dead or alive.

    by carver on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:40:45 PM PDT

    •  respect is earned. In Helm's case,

      it's a negative number that is on his tally sheet.

      by shpilk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:42:22 PM PDT

•  One other President died on July 4

  James Monroe, in 1831

  by teacherken on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:33:26 PM PDT

•  My current abode's

  neighbors celebrate Independance Day with Mariachi music with a distinct "Oom-pah-pah" accordian background.

  California is fucking weird, but I love my version of America.

  If I had the funds and wasn't fearful of the cops, I'd trip to ChinaTown and digg the celebration from yet another viewpoint.

  GoBama.

  by SecondComing on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:34:38 PM PDT

•  The fourth of July...

  ...is an odd holiday to me. We celebrate our independence with mock displays of aerial bombardment of our towns and cities, something we have never suffered. I live in a fairly small southern California town, and we have fireworks on the fourth. I don't go down to the local high school, or any of the primo vantage points throughout the valley to watch. I can see them from my house. Funny, but the only good place I have is sitting in the hot tub, out on the deck. I have a perfect view of the aerial display over the tops of the valley oaks, and cannot, thank God, see the ground display. Tell you why. Tonight, one of my favorite radio d.j.'s, Carlos Niño, played a complete program of late sixties and early seventies...what, pop/rock classics, I guess. Took me right back to the day. See, I was in Viet Nam in '70, '71 and '72. I'm not comfortable in a crowd when starburst shells are going off. Still. Reminds me of white phosphorus. Willy Peter. We used it a lot. I got to go on mop-up afterward a few times. You know, it didn't just burn down the villages, it burned up the people. The ones who didn't burn generally died of suffocation, although you might more properly call it dessication. The w.p. burns so intensely it sucks the oxygen out of the air. Mummified them. The men of the villages were off fighting on one side or the other, or both, so the villages were occupied by old people, women and children. Ducks, chickens, pigs. We cooked them. Thirty-five, thirty-six years later, guys tell me they have it down to a science now. I didn't want to see the ground display then, either. So I watch alone, while my dog hides from the noise, under my bed. Sitting in the hot water, I tend to lose the sense of my physical boundaries, and it helps. Makes me feel like I don't have to contain everything I'm feeling, like it can leach out of me. I still cry some of it out, too. Why the hell are we still doing this?

  by socalmonk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:38:02 PM PDT

  •  Talk to someone

    A priest or counselor.......

    What unit were you in? Which areas did you operate?

    BTW NYC was bombarded by air on 911. California by Japanese balloon in WWII and obviously Pearl Harbor.

    I call BS on your post and question your sincerity.

    by Paid Troll on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:50:32 PM PDT

    •  The fireworks commemorate the bombardment

      of Fort McHenry by the British, observed by Francis Scott Key, an American Diplomat then in British custody on a ship in the harbor, who later penned "The Star Spangled Banner" to tell of his emotional reactions to the experience. Today's fireworks are his 'the rocket's red glare'.  His visceral reactions to it are no less valid than those of socalmonk.

      by Press to Digitate on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:57:29 PM PDT

      •  Yeah, we have ...

        the only national anthem on the planet that exalts bombardment. Nothing about the beauty of the land or the goodness of the people. Goldwater...how appropriate.

        by socalmonk on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:22:05 AM PDT

        •  But, If the U.S. didnt stand up for bombardment,

          Who would???  /snark ;-)

          by Press to Digitate on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 06:35:17 PM PDT

•  I just did...

  Weren't you listening, either?

  by socalmonk on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:56:49 PM PDT

  •  Reading vs listening

    If you are being sincere you need human contact and someone to read you.  There is catharsis in a written confession but I think you need feedback also.  Again what unit.  

    by Paid Troll on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:00:08 PM PDT

•  Helms Dead

  Lets face it, he was a no-good essential element to the process(es) of the our Beloved Nation. He didn't champion the right things, he didn't represent moral qualities, he dis-enfranchised christianity, and was all around a S.O.B..
  So lets not start sucking each others pop cickles just yet, this man was a piece of racist shit.
  No need to blog, write, loath, or for better or worse (consider his place in history) other than that of the before mentioned.

  by jsloo on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 01:01:31 AM PDT

•  Read our founding document first thing

  on the morning of the 4th.  The stirring first part, of course, which includes those immortal lines beginning "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." are then followed by a succint and powerful, highly specific litany of complaints against the British King. Re-read it if you haven't done so recentlyRe-read it and reflect on our current Administration and its actions.

  by catchlightning on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:02:55 PM PDT