Daily Kos

Peak Metal

Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:00:07 PM PDT

For those not frequent readers of Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, not every item that appears there is actually fiction -- though sometimes we may wish it were. This month's column by Robert Silverberg focuses on the depletion of resources that don't get as much press as oil.

The element gallium is in very short supply and the world may well run out of it in just a few years. Indium is threatened too, says Armin Reller, a materials chemist at Germany’s University of Augsburg. He estimates that our planet’s stock of indium will last no more than another decade. All the hafnium will be gone by 2017 also, and another twenty years will see the extinction of zinc.

If some of these elements seem rather exotic, odds are you're looking at them right this moment. Both gallium and indium are used in the making of flat-screen displays (along with other electronics). If there's one name on that list that should stand out, it's zinc.  Zinc is not particularly rare, but we're consuming it at a rate that's far faster than we're finding new sources. That's also true of our old friend copper, which is why construction sites the world over are often plagued with thieves who ransack locations for copper plumbing and wiring.  

But the sobering truth is that we still have millions of years to go before our own extinction date, or so we hope, and at our present rate of consumption we are likely to deplete most of the natural resources this planet has handed us. We have set up breeding and conservation programs to guard the few remaining whooping cranes, Indian rhinoceroses, and Siberian tigers. But we can’t exactly set up a reservation somewhere where the supply of gallium and hafnium can quietly replenish itself. And once the scientists have started talking about our chances of running out of copper, we know that the future is rapidly moving in on us and big changes lie ahead.

Of course, we're not really consuming these metals, not in the way we do oil or coal.  They're not actually gone, merely spread out in forms that are extremely difficult to recover. Even with our best efforts at recycling electronics, it's likely that we're years, not decades, away from making do without some of these rare earth elements. In the last twenty years alone, we've consumed about one third of available resources.  Want to make a guess as to how long this can continue?

A 2007 study published in the journal New Scientist, looked at of the elements used in producing electronics and came to the same conclusion. Indium is gone within a decade. Zinc and tantalum in about twice that. The increasing scarcity of some metals is reflected in their prices.

He estimates that we have, at best, 10 years before we run out of indium. Its impending scarcity could already be reflected in its price: in January 2003 the metal sold for around $60 per kilogram; by August 2006 the price had shot up to over $1000 per kilogram.

This report also highlights a similarity between oil and rare earth elements used in electronics -- the vast majority are imported, often from politically unstable countries.  

In fact, these elements can contribute directly to that instability.  For some of the elements, like gallium, there's simply no good source of high quality ore.  Oddly enough, that's one aspect of this story that might be a good thing.  Those elements that are both extremely rare and isolated to a few high quality sources are a spark for corruption, murder, and environmental destruction. We may be currently engaged in a war for oil, but corporate proxies are also taking brutal actions in a war for tantalum, better known these days by the name of it's principle ore, coltan.  

There are steps we can take, including rethinking ordnances that require copper pipes and making it easier to recycle electronics (which is similar to broadband in that it's simple in many municipalities, while rural areas often lack access).  Those are good steps, and the sooner we act, the easier it will be to avoid fighting wars over copper, zinc, and their rarer cousins.

There are also those who suggest mining of landfills, and undoubtedly this is going to be tempting in the next few decades.  After all, rare elements may be found at a higher concentration in some landfills than can be located in any source of ore.  They're also a domestic source.  However, metals trapped in consumer goods are often soundly locked in stable, complex compounds.  Mining them, and freeing these elements for reuse could mean all the same disruptions to the water table, toxic chemicals used in extraction, and smelting familiar in traditional metals mining.  Anyone cheering for broad application of landfill mining as a solution to our shortage of rare metals needs first to look at the pits remaining from copper mines in the west -- then think about how many of these you want next to your home town.

  • ::

Tags: Natural Resources, Environment, Recycling, Robert Silverberg (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 343 comments

  •  Clarification request (7+ / 0-)

    Regarding:

    There are steps we can take, including rethinking ordnances that require copper pipes

    Is it possible you meant "ordinances"?

  •  There has been (11+ / 0-)

    A ridiculous number of metal thefts recently in OR.  My favorite is the idiots who stole the wire from one of the highway reader boards, while it was on.  Glad they managed to not get electrocuted but frankly they probably deserved to.

    "Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown

    by skywaker9 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:04:54 PM PDT

    •  Some Folks in WA DID get Zapped (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      playtonjr, trivium, pixxer

      going after wire on the power lines!  Guess WA gets the Darwin awards on this one eh?

      •  we had a fool stealing metal off of a roof above (0+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        subtropolis

        a marine repair shop that did electroplating. his dumbass fell head first into a 1,000 gallon vat of acid. i think the justice in his case was served in the fact he actually lived. now he gets a reminder of his ignorance every time he looks in the mirror while doing his stint in prison. poor guy...

        impeachment-it does the body good impeachment-it isn't just for blow jobs anymore impeachment-i can say no more i expect no less

        by playtonjr on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 06:16:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  good (nt) (0+ / 0-)

        "They're telling us something we don't understand"
        General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

        by subtropolis on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 09:06:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  copper theft is rampant in this area too but one (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      elfling, subtropolis, zelbinion, lemming22

      most folks aren't aware of is the theft of catalytic coverters from cars and trucks. a converter contains platinum, making it a hot commodity at recyling businesses. some cars have four of them, no car has less than two nowadays. they are super expensive to replace and when rudely cut from your exhaust system usually requires that most, if not all, of it be replaced as well.
       my neighbor was a victim of catalytic converter theft last month while parked in a busy area of cocoa beach in daylight hours. these punks doing it are using battery powered sawzalls which are pretty quiet. and even if you saw someone up under a car, would you really think they were stealing something? probably not, i'd just assume someone was checking out a problem of some sort.
       copper theft is nuts around here. i know someone personally that was two days away from closing on a custom 1.3 million dollar home on the outskirts of orlando who got a call from the builder informing him that it'd be 6-8 weeks to repair the damages done. the house had been broken into, all of the appliances stolen, the refridge and icemaker were cut out without turning the water off, which flooded the place, ruining all carpet, wood flooring and cabinets. the wiring was ripped out ny busting through the drywall to access it. they even busted out all of the insulated windows just to get the decorative aluminum mullions from between the panes of glass.
        i bought 4 rolls of wire yesterday, $107 a roll. i looked through last years reciepts to see what i payed for the same material last year-i found one dated back to Feb., $55. the $428 i spent would net a copper thief about $100 as scrap. the problem is most don't steal rolls of wire. they rip it from operating systems. i talked to an a/c repair man last week who told me that the week prior he had a service call to replace three feet of copper stolen fronm a businesses a/c lineset. only three feet but they had snatched it off past flush to the concrete exterior of the building and kinked the line inside the concrete, complicating the job of repairing it dramatically. that three feet of soft copper probably netted the thief less than a dollar- to repair the damage they did getting it? $1,100.
       

      impeachment-it does the body good impeachment-it isn't just for blow jobs anymore impeachment-i can say no more i expect no less

      by playtonjr on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 06:11:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Won for the wrong reasons. (6+ / 0-)

      "Last time you said I should call the doctor, I ended up getting better anyway. This irrefutably proves that I am immortal."

      Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

      by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:16:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He would have won at almost any point in history. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        pixxer

        People have been making "peak X" claims for literally millenia.  Read the above link.

        •  And I've gotten better every single time (5+ / 0-)

          again, proving my immortality.

          Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

          by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:23:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wanna bet? (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            FishOutofWater

            I'm serious.

            (Note: the "gonna run out completely" is pretty implausible, but the "peak" is just a fact of nature. Every resource will have its peak production at some point in human history, and some of those peaks will come before there is a superior replacement. Pointless to deny that fact. So all we're arguing about is when.)

            Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

            by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:26:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are arguing with a true believer (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              G2geek, Cassiodorus, Akonitum

              who is ignoring the obvious.

              "It's the planet, stupid."

              by FishOutofWater on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:42:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  what's also scary is that true believers (5+ / 0-)

                in limitless growth can be found here on this site.   This is supposed to be the reality-based world.  The ideology of limitless growth can be reduced logically to the proposition that a part can be larger than the whole, or that an infinity can be a subset of an integer.  The true believers may as well be arguing that the earth is flat or that the sun orbits the earth.  

                This is worse than creationism: at least creationism, in and of itself, isn't killing us.  

                •  Might I recommend Robert Heinlein's... (4+ / 0-)

                  Revolt in 2100, which predicted an American Theocracy, something that the "religious right" has been doing its damndest to realize.  Published in 1953, he even managed to capture the corrupt nature of the leaders of such a movement.  Spot on and damned scary.

                  "Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." James Madison, Federalist No. 10.

                  by Mike McL on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 11:27:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Well argued. It's hard to keep up with science (0+ / 0-)

                  and the growth of technology. Even the growth of ideas, which are a nearly infinite intangible resource becomes hard to manage. We become more and more specialized with the growth of knowledge.

                  Infinite growth in things involving material substance violates the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of mass/energy.

                  "It's the planet, stupid."

                  by FishOutofWater on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 06:17:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  they must be listening to that idiot george noory (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  subtropolis

                  and his nutcase oil corporation callers. they claim that oil is renewable, that we'll never run out because it is constantly replenishing itself. yadayadayadayada........ how fucking brainless does one have to be? i have had two idiots in the laast few months tell me that there's no such thing as peak oil because they heard it on coast-to-coast. okay... an cartman has an 80' satellite dish that came out of his ass too, i have proof...

                  Photobucket

                  impeachment-it does the body good impeachment-it isn't just for blow jobs anymore impeachment-i can say no more i expect no less

                  by playtonjr on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 06:26:50 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  No, it's someone who looks at what has happened (0+ / 0-)

                hunderds of times over the centuries, with always the same outcome. As opposed to you, who believes that something is going to happen in the future.

                Vote for McCain to continue the fight against al-Qaeda, vote for Obama to finish it. </war>

                by Calouste on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:47:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry - (3+ / 0-)

              substitutability isn't infinite.

              "The freeway's concrete way won't show/ you where to run or how to go" -- Jorma Kaukonen

              by Cassiodorus on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 09:24:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  If you don't care about statistics, (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            decembersue

            Then that's your problem.  The rest of us will live in the real world where statistics is the way you approach problems.  And again, please read the link, and the two linked pages (peak lithium and peak oil), so that I don't have to repeat all of my arguments from there over here.  

            •  In the real world (0+ / 0-)

              statistics are the way you approach problems in which overall change can be abstracted away in some manner. And for the other problems, the most common approach is surprise. Followed by denial, followed by premature anticipation, followed by correct anticipation.

              If you really can't think of any examples where statistics just didn't / wouldn't have worked, I'm really sorry for you.

              Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

              by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:33:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And you apparently think that ancedotes (0+ / 0-)

                Are equivalent to statistics.  Thanks for reinforcing my point.

                •  Oh, come on. (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  IamtheReason

                  For any given number of sigma, there is some dataset which is later broken by an n-sigma event. Make n high enough, and there are not enough seconds in the history of humanity to produce such an anecdote.

                  For instance: you are now sitting however many miles away, responding to my messages within seconds. Before the telegraph, measure the bandwidth for communication at this speed. Measure once every day for 10 years, from 1509 to 1519, you get a data series that looks like this: 0 bits/day, 1 bit/day (luck), 0 bits/day, 0 bits/day..... standard deviation: 1 or two bits. Now this message is so many sigma off, it is more than anecdotally different.

                  Sure, that's a stupid example, because we all know what changed. And that's my simple point. Things sometimes change. The future is sometimes different from the past. To say that statistics prove otherwise is stupid.

                  Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                  by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:51:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, sometimes things do change (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Calouste

                    But the greater the number of datapoints, the lower the odds of it changing are.  And we have a truly massive number of datapoints here.

                    The impressive thing is how much this mirrors pretty much all of the doomsayers of the past.  Noticed how pretty much everything under the sun is supposed to magically run out in 10-30 years?  That's exactly what the past doomsayers were saying -- repeatedly, over and over, throughout history, documented back as far as Roman times (which lead to the advance of ruina montium mining, their equivalent of mountaintop removal).  And nothing under the sun ran out.  Not one or two things, but nothing.  Prices fluctuate, sometimes dramatically, but overall, as it has always been, the long term trend of prices on resources is downward.  Betting against that is betting against a huge dataset that says just the opposite.

                    And there's a reason for this, too.  The game of "technology versus ease of access" is way biased in favor of technology, because just a tiny bit of technology improvement equals a lot more reserves at a given price point.  Likewise, just a slight increase in price point also equals a lot more reserves.  The natural distribution of resources is such that the best deposits are extremely rare, the next best are far more common, the next best still are far more common still, and so forth.  This leads to exponential scaling of reserves.

                    •  Do you know what an index fossil is? (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Cassiodorus, C Barr

                      And can you explain why there are index fossils?

                      That website is utterly moronic bullshit that ignores human and geologic history. Many human civilizations have hit natural limits and crashed.

                      The geologic record is littered with species that hit natural limits.

                      Your use of the pejorative "doomsayers" shows your ignorance.

                      "It's the planet, stupid."

                      by FishOutofWater on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:14:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What do index fossils have to do with anything? (0+ / 0-)

                        You think pterosaurs died out because they couldn't find a good source to mine baryte?

                        Will you actually address my arguments about technology versus reserves scaling factors?

                        I tell you, there is no glory in being a doomslayer.  I'm not doing this for my health, that's for sure.

                        •  Species are dying at mass extinction rates (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          C Barr

                          We are mining more than metals.

                          Your economic arguments are utter idiocy. The earth's resources are finite. Just because substitution works for most products doesn't mean it works for everything.

                          I know geologic history. I know a little human history. You don't seem to.

                          I have a diary in the works that will show what I'm talking about. Your "doomslayer" shit is moronic. The earth is littered with the fossils of species that grew explosively then went rapidly extinct.

                          "It's the planet, stupid."

                          by FishOutofWater on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 09:23:27 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  "The Earth's Resources are Finite" (0+ / 0-)

                            You're right.  There's only 3.3 to 11.6 quintillion kilograms of lithium in the Earth's crust, for example.  We're going to mine through that all, right?

                            No, of course not.  So, unless that's your argument, that we're going to use up quintillions of kilograms of resource, what you actually mean to be arguing about is that it's going to get too hard to extract.  But then that just goes back to the technology versus ease of extraction race, which technology always wins due to scaling factors.

                            The earth is littered with the fossils of species that grew explosively then went rapidly extinct.

                            "Rapidly" as in "millions of years".  And this has absolutely nothing to do with resource extraction; it has to do with shifting niches.

                            The current extinction waves, mind you, are far faster, and are almost entirely our fault.  Ever since humans have evolved, we've been a disaster for planetary biodiversity.

                            •  Extinction relates to sustainability (1+ / 0-)

                              Recommended by:
                              C Barr

                              Technology isn't magic. It requires energy and other resources. Exponential growth is not sustainable.

                              Index fossils went extinct in less that millions of years. They disappear suddenly. Shifting niches don't explain global extinction of widespread species.

                              As far as resources go, water has been the most critical to humans, not lithium or coltan.

                              The Anasazi disappeared, probably because of droughts. This story happened over and over in human history.

                              As for your ridiculous arguments about dispersed elements, there are millions of tons of platinum and iridium in the earth's core. Sure, I pulled that number out of thin air, but it makes no difference. That platinum isn't accessible.

                              "It's the planet, stupid."

                              by FishOutofWater on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:01:01 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                              •  "Less than a million years" (0+ / 0-)

                                Homo sapiens has existed for a mere 250,000 years, and human civilization about 10,000.  The timeperiods are nothing comparable.  And unless those index fossil species were participating in resource extraction, you're talking in non-sequiteurs.

                                As for your ridiculous arguments about dispersed elements, there are millions of tons of platinum and iridium in the earth's core. Sure, I pulled that number out of thin air, but it makes no difference. That platinum isn't accessible.

                                I specifically mentioned the crust, which is only 1% of the Earth, and only extends 20-30 miles down -- i.e., within the distant reach of continually advancing technology.  Cut it down to the top 2-3 miles, similar depths to what we currently do for oil extraction (say, in-situ solvent mining), roughly a tenth the volume, and you've "only" got a couple hundred quadrillion kilograms.  I could cover just the oceans, if you'd like; if I recall correctly, that's "only" tens of quadrillions of kilograms  (I can dig up the exact numbers if you need them).  And we can extract lithium from seawater, current, minimally-developed tech, for only about 6 times the price we extract it from brine pools presently.  With current, minimally-developed tech.

                                •  No one but you brought up lithium (0+ / 0-)

                                  It's the concept of limitless growth and unlimited resources that I'm arguing against, not someone's false claims about lithium.

                                  I am far more interested in environmental limits, especially food, water, and biodiversity, on the sustainability of civilization than running out of metals.  However, geologic processes concentrate metals by huge factors in many cases to form ore bodies. The amount of energy required to extract metals from poorer and poorer ores will become a physical limit.

                                  If energy itself isn't the limit, the pollution from the energy production - global warming - becomes the limit.

                                  Your argument is physically and mathematically ridiculous. The planet's resources are finite and they're interconnected.

                                  "It's the planet, stupid."

                                  by FishOutofWater on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 06:30:58 AM PDT

                                  [ Parent ]

                                  •  Before rejecting Re's ideas (0+ / 0-)

                                    Before rejecting Re's ideas out of hand, I suggest you read his piece on the nanowire battery. I think he is the only one on this site who has written about the work of Dr. Yu Chi at Stanford. Altho Chi faces a media blackout, the Saudis are well aware of what his battery design could do to replace oil, as Re describes in his piece.

                                    http://www.dailykos.com/...

                                    While limiting growth is an ideal goal, in the meantime the entire world is rushing to follow America's example. And if China and all the rest build their consumer societies on petroleum, we're all finished. And China, for one, is certainly not going to stop expanding of its own volition. The only way out is to find an alternative to oil - and that is available through wind, solar, geothermal, but only Yu Chi's work cited above by Re offers a possibility of powering cars and trucks with electricity over substantial distances

                                •  Re, I was just reading your March 15 diary (0+ / 0-)

                                  I'm not really responding to your comment here, but I do want to tell you that I was just reading your March diary "The Kingdom and the Ion" and this issue deserves far wider coverage, at least here on Kos.

                                  As far I can tell, you are the only one on this site who has written about Yu Chi's work on the nanowire battery. This is so important that I'd like to see it get much more attention.

                                  And I'd like to see Obama take some very specific positions on the road forward toward 100% renewable energy. At the very least promising federal support for Yu Chi so that the future of this technology does not fall entirely into the hands of the Saudis, whose motives are, at the very least, not identical with those of the US and the rest of the oil-consuming world.

                                  Perhaps we could work with some of the other Kossacks who are aware of the crucial importance of this technology to build some interest? But how?

                            •  Lithium is your best example. (0+ / 0-)

                              And was NOT mentioned in the diary.

                              I know, if you go for the heavier stuff, it is still hundreds of trillions of kilos, or hundreds of millions of tons. Still, let's be fair.

                              Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                              by homunq on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 12:48:55 AM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                      •  But we haven't reach our natural limits (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        buddabelly

                        we've only reach the limits imposed on us by remaining a single planet species.

                        •  Fat chance fixing up Mars (0+ / 0-)

                          Your local fixer upper planet.

                          But, in theory, you're correct.

                          "It's the planet, stupid."

                          by FishOutofWater on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 09:25:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  We don't need to go to mars (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Uthaclena
                            1.  The biggest problem is, ultimately, about energy - Space Based Solar Power, which can provide substantial energy, to clean up the planet, and enable massive recycling, can be obtained by orbital platforms.
                            1.  Mineral resources of particularly rare metals, like platinum, have a high likelyhood of being found on the moon, and are definitely found on asteroids, and there are multiple NEOs that potentially could be tapped, as are other rare metals, like Iridium.  

                            We can fix up this planet, while developing space, and then work on mars.

                    •  Really, do you wanna bet? (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      lemming22, FishOutofWater

                      The costs of moving to the next-rarer deposit, in a world where population density (and thus pollution costs) is increasing (also exponentially) is not always incremental. For instance, oil-from-coal might have been great for Hitler, but  I would bet anything that such production will never equal current oil production, because the CO2 consequences would be intolerable. I will make a simple bet: name your period N, I will choose a time between N and 2N, and at that time daily oil production will be lower (in absolute terms) than it is today. If you're willing to go to per-capita terms, I am willing to throw in biofuels and all equivalent liquid energy.

                      Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                      by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:30:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ah, that's the rub, you see (0+ / 0-)

                        The fact that we're able to get something cheaper doesn't necessarily mean that we will, because we can always make choices that will make it harder.  And CO2 is a great example of that.  We can ignore global warming.  We can say, "screw the arctic", and let that be that.  Heck, we'd ultimately profit more from all that melt.  Economic prosperity doesn't equate to environmental prosperity.  

                        We could make all our oil from coal.  And coal liquefaction is a heck of a lot cheaper now than it was during WWII; Germany only relied on it because they had no other choice.  But we'd also be condemning the arctic in the process.  Rather, I support peak oil, but in the form of a demand peak.  I want to see us move to electrified transportation as soon as possible for the health of the planet.

                        •  Cheaper? (2+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          FishOutofWater, Akonitum

                          Ah, I see. You mean, "cheaper, as long as you are able to successfully externalize most costs."

                          Well, yes, I guess we actually do agree then. But I still prefer my definition of "cheaper".

                          Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                          by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 09:02:45 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  We'd profit from the melt? (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          FishOutofWater

                          Except of course the tens of millions (minimum) who died.

                          It looks as if you really are not buying the infinite-growth anti-environmental bullshit, as if you really are a reasonable person. Please consider, then, that your "doomslaying" stance is a very useful figleaf for the true bullshitters. "Metals will always be cheaper" is one thing, and may be true, but "we can profit from arctic meltdown" is dangerous talk (unless you clearly state that you mean in a million years or so, when biodiversity recovers).

                          Being righter than the doomsayers is not the only goal. The other goal is helping humanity act morally. Being a useful know-it-all for the Republicans is just as bad as being a useful fool.

                          Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                          by homunq on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 01:00:35 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  I really have gotten sick (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                FishOutofWater

                over 50 times, and every single time I've gotten better. Immortal city, baby.

                Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:43:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Statistically, (0+ / 0-)

                  Everyone gets sick many dozens of times in their life, then dies.

                  Wake me up when you're actually a statistical outlier, having gotten sick and recovered about ten thousand times or so.

                  Just because you don't know how to use statistics doesn't make them inaccurate.

                  •  And statistically (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    FishOutofWater

                    every planet which attains civilization predicts a significant, permanent, relative shortage of resource X many times, then attains it.

                    You cannot tell me that you actually have an SPSS database which includes viking bog iron, ancient japanese potassium prices, and modern oil prices, and can tell me the standard deviation on how long price increases versus price decreases last. Your "statistics" is just hand-waving.

                    I just today got the grades back for my statistics class, and I was the highest grade in the class - OK, that is a stupid anecdote, because it was a basic statistics course that I was just taking as a requirement for my masters (easier than getting equivalencies from out-of-country), while I have had 2 different jobs where statistics was my main job responsibility. But you really do need a better argument than just "statistics prove!!!". The web page you point out is very right about lithium, so what. About oil, it makes a good argument that peak != exhaustion, which I already said is true. But peaks are real.

                    If you do want to use a "Math proves!" argument, then the best guess is that, for any given resource which has not yet peaked, we are somewhere between 2.5% and 97.5% of the way to the peak. This is true for about 95% of the resources and false for the other ~5%.

                    Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                    by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:07:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So Hubbert's Peak may be hyperbolic (3+ / 0-)

                      not a bell shaped curve. So what. Oil production peaks either way.

                      This argument is idiotic because the earth's resources are finite and elements cannot be fabricated. There is no substitute for a number of elements and compounds.

                      "It's the planet, stupid."

                      by FishOutofWater on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:18:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oil production will only peak from demand (0+ / 0-)

                        Unless you believe in peak energy.  And if that's the case, boy, where do we start!

                        Oil can be outright made.  It doesn't have to be an energy source.  In fact, as far as energy sources go, it's really, really expensive, many times more expensive per joule than other competing energy sources.  Turning it into a sink wouldn't be that big of a difference.  Heck, you can even make "green gasoline" if you make your syngas from partial oxidation of biomass.  Or carbon neutral if your CO2 source for Sabatier is from sequestration.

                        As for total quantities of elements, I suggest you look up their ppm or ppb quantities on the planet and compare that to the mass of just the outer couple miles of the Earth's crust.

                      •  But why limit ourselves to terrestrial resources? (0+ / 0-)

                        no text

                      •  Fallacy... (0+ / 0-)

                        There is no substitute for a number of elements and compounds.

                        If the price gets high enough, there will be a substitute. Humans are a creative and inventive species.

                        Vote for McCain to continue the fight against al-Qaeda, vote for Obama to finish it. </war>

                        by Calouste on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:37:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  "elements cannot be fabricated."? (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        jabney

                        Atomic fusion passed you by?

                        Vote for McCain to continue the fight against al-Qaeda, vote for Obama to finish it. </war>

                        by Calouste on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:44:12 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  every planet which attains civilization predicts (0+ / 0-)

                      Wow.  I've seen a lot of people around here go from a sample size of one, but you're now making predictions from a sample size of zero.  That's a new low.

                      You cannot tell me that you actually have an SPSS database which includes viking bog iron, ancient japanese potassium prices, and modern oil prices

                      Actually, we can look at what it took to extract resources in ancient societies.  The yields per hour of labor with most primitive mining techniques were abyssmal.  The techniques were generally quite inefficient, too.  Not rare were the societies that devoted considerable effort to deforesting their landscape for wood to fuel a horribly inefficient process of lime production.  Stuff that we now annually produce over a hundred million tons of with hardly a blip on our economic radar.

                      ?we are somewhere between 2.5% and 97.5% of the way to the peak. This is true for about 95% of the resources and false for the other ~5%

                      The earth's crust, for a given element, generally contains many cubic miles of the stuff.  The total resource base of virtually any mineral is virtually inexhaustible, so the only argument you can make is ease of extraction.  And that comes down to the battle between technology and ease of extraction, which, as discussed, is way biased in favor of technology.  I love how you just made up numbers on the spot, though -- that's cute.

                      •  No, those numbers are not made up (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        FishOutofWater

                        they are a priori.

                        (the part about civilizations was facetious. I was trying to make you see that YOUR sample size of futures-from-present-conditions is actually zero, not actually claiming I had any samples).

                        I am saying that peaks exist, a priori. Some peaks will correspond with finding a better replacement; some peaks will correspond with the overall human population peak (which, for earthbound population - that is, essentially all population for the foreseeable future - will almost certainly occur within the next 150 years); and some peaks will be extraction-bound (or pollution-bound, which in my mind is equivalent, because I am an optimist about our ability to eventually price in externalities). We are only arguing about the relative proportions. You are making a (very non-statistical, but still valid) argument that no peaks will be extraction-bound; I am saying that your a priori arguments are not as universal as you claim, due both to increasing human population (cannot be abstracted to a relative increase and thus compared to past - absolute numbers are key here) and possibly to idiosyncratic issues with particular resources.

                        We really have passed peak whale oil. And there was a real price increase in lighting technology that lasted for a non-negligible time. This is in spite of the fact that there are many other biological and nonbiological sources for lighting oil. Yes, those sources did mean that prices did not (and will not) rise infinitely. But neither did they come back down for a significant time. "Overall trend is down" may be true, but if the trend for my baby daughter's lifetime is up, I do not care.

                        Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                        by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 09:23:54 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  But it's not zero (0+ / 0-)

                          We have countless examples of how ancients extracted resources.  And they all were way, way lower production rates than what we have nowadays.  

                          We really have passed peak whale oil.

                          Life is not mineral.  It behaves by completely different rules.  There are not quintillions of kilograms of whales buried throughout the Earth's crust that can be mined up, with varying degrees of difficulty.  There is no Moby-Dick Process for turning CO2 and H2 into whales.  It's an entirely different situation.

                          •  there are billions (1+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            FishOutofWater

                            of kilograms of biological oils throughout the biosphere, which can (could have) be harvested, and in fact were harvested. Lighting costs still went up.

                            Zero datapoints from now going forward. Statistical generalization from the past is not necessarily valid.

                            Personally, I consider myself unique, and I am able to reconstruct a large dataset of my heartbeat delays. This unbiased data set says that the sigma is significantly less than 1 second. The chances of my ever going over 20 seconds without a heartbeat are negligibly low, I calculate it will be at least the age of the universe before this happens. I am immortal! (Yes, you can easily demolish that argument, because your data set of mortal humans is greater than zero. Your data set of planetary civilization outcomes, mortal or immortal, is zero however, so statistics does not help us in this argument. Your reducing resources are my repeating heartbeats - yet when I die, it will not be just a one-in-a-billion-heartbeats perturbation, it will be an infinite sigma variation - statistically speaking, totally impossible.)

                            Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                            by homunq on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:07:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                            •  Statistics, oils (0+ / 0-)

                              of kilograms of biological oils throughout the biosphere

                              Well, if you're talking about switching sources, why yes, that does indeed happen!  That's a demand-based peak, not a supply-based peak.  But if you want to specifically focus on whales, well, that's not even remotely close to an analogue to mineral extraction.

                              Lighting costs still went up.

                              And your reference for that is...?  The link you linked to does not say that.  Now, here's my reference, a peer-reviewed study on lighting costs in UK for the past seven centuries, that shows that in inflation-adjusted dollars, they've not only gone down, but significantly.  And that even whale oil lighting costs went down (figure 4).  

                              Statistical generalization from the past is not necessarily valid.

                              Statistical generalizations from the past is the only kind of statistics there is.

                              Your reducing resources are my repeating heartbeats

                              No, they're not.  There are billions of ready counterexamples to your immortality claims.  In fact, we have an incredibly statistically significant population that says that you're not immortal.   Even on the subject of heartbeat rates, there's already plenty of study voiding your immortality claims. Now, what do you have for the long-term downward resource price trend in terms of a statistically significant number of counterexamples?

                              •  OK (0+ / 0-)

                                your reference beats mine on the whale oil; although I am puzzled by the apparent inconsistency (might mine be so silly as not to account for inflation?) yours is clearly more general and shows the negligible place whale oil occupied.

                                Let me be clear about the cheaper resources and the heartbeats, though. I of course acknowledge that I'm not really immortal, it's a reductio ad absurdem of your claims. I am saying that, if I were a human raised by robots (or anything else without a heart) in ignorance of humanity, I would, by your logic, be justified in concluding my own immortality, and ignoring all non-statistical arguments that I might be mortal. I would have a bulletproof set of statistics - millions of heartbeats, with a relatively low variability in their interval. Clearly, no matter how bulletproof my statistics, I would be wrong. The same statistical fallacy is possible with your ever-cheaper resources.

                                So we are reduced to non-statistical argumentation, like your exponential distribution argument (which I accept, in its weakest form: for a large majority of resources, there are acceptable substitute sources that are several or many times more common but only a relatively small increment or factor harder to get), and my increasing-costs-of-pollution-due-to-population-density argument.

                                One thing is beyond argument: if human history is finite, every given resource must have peak production at some specific time in that history. I believe that this will be because economic models which assume permanent growth will someday break in some fundamental way. I further believe that this breakage will not be monolithic and cataclysmic, but will be observable in an accumulation of various small symptoms over at least a few decades, and that some of these symptoms will be "peak"-type processes with a set of resources, of which oil is clearly the most important.

                                There are valid ways of arguing about this possibility, some of which you have engaged in; historical statistics are simply not one of them. Let's not try to settle the deeper questions; but I would like to agree on at least that one point.

                                Opinions are like assholes. I spend way too much time looking at them on the internet.

                                by homunq on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 12:37:31 AM PDT

                                [ Parent ]

    •  Defactor Peak vs Literal Peak (0+ / 0-)

      As is the case with Atlantic and Pacific OffShore(Not counting GOM) it is simply not worth it.

      Saying the Iraq "Surge" worked is like saying Thelma & Louise had a flying car.

      by JML9999 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:17:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Huh. Rei, I see you wrote those Wiki pieces. nt (5+ / 0-)

      "The most significant difference between now and a decade ago is the ... rapid erosion of spare capacities at critical segments of energy chains." Cheney, 2001

      by Akonitum on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:39:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Heh <> (0+ / 0-)

        "He not busy being born is busy dying." R. Zimmerman

        by RUKind on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:52:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  How observant of you (0+ / 0-)

        To notice that I wrote my own website.

        •  "'Nuff said," Rei said, linking to his own site. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          geodemographics

          Evidently not.

          Oil can be outright made.  It doesn't have to be an energy source.  In fact, as far as energy sources go, it's really, really expensive, many times more expensive per joule than other competing energy sources.  Turning it into a sink wouldn't be that big of a difference. -- Rei

          "Turning it into a sink wouldn't be that big of a difference." What a statement, Rei. That's beauty. And "really, really expensive, many more times expensive per joule than other competing resources?" Ah-huh.

          At any rate, a few people may enjoy reading Herman Daly's response to Julian Simon.

          Techno-cornucopians like Simon played an important role -- along with industry -- in squelching Carter's alternative energy initiatives, because, after all, just as people were beginning to realize there could be "Limits to Growth," techno-cornucopians -- with industry help -- stepped in with zeal and the appearance of expertise to say, "no problem." Simon still gets prominent billing at the Cato Institute.

          "The most significant difference between now and a decade ago is the ... rapid erosion of spare capacities at critical segments of energy chains." Cheney, 2001

          by Akonitum on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:53:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That's a very silly example (6+ / 0-)

      There are real limits in the world, ones that can't be cracked by the application of desire, false assertions of statistical proof, or blind faith that the market offers perpetual salvation.

      If Simon and Ehrlich had simply made their wager a few years later, the results would have been quite different.

      Ten years ago, copper was less than $1 a pound, now it's approaching $4.

      Gold was at $294.  Now it's at $933.

      Platinum was at $377.  Now it's $2,030.40

      If Simon and Ehrlich had made their bet in 1998, would you be shouting about how it proved that Ehrlich was right?

      •  Let's look at that. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        RJP9999

        long-term copper prices, inflation-adjusted

        Platinum prices, not, inflation adjusted (the "low" value in the 1968 starting point is over $1000 in modern dollars, well above the current "high") (I was only able to find back to 1968... if you can find earlier, let's look at that, too)

        Gold prices, not, inflation adjusted (The low value in 1968 is just over $200 in modern dollars -- below the current prices, but not that much so.  However, prices back then were low because of the convertability between dollars and gold, which was suspended in 1971.  The link between currency and gold continued to be weakened -- the two-tier gold price was terminated in '72, US citizens were allowed to hold gold bullion in '74, the treasury started selling gold stocks in '75, and so on)

        In short, you easily lose in two of your examples, and the only one you won in, you didn't win by that much, and this only because you happened to pick what the currency used to be keyed to, but no longer is. Care to prove any more of my points for me?

        •  However, the bet you pointed to... (0+ / 0-)

          was over a 10 year term.  You indicated it as if it had significance.

          And now you're talking like the folks who want to privatize Social Security "yes, but if you extend the period to forty years"... You're purposely going back to a point where you can cherry pick your results.

          There's no doubt that people bemoan the impending shortage of materials far ahead of their real limits.  However, pretending that there are no limits, that some new source will always be discovered, is far more unrealistic.

    •  Thank you. <> (0+ / 0-)

      "He not busy being born is busy dying." R. Zimmerman

      by RUKind on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:50:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Economics is the new God of the Gaps. (0+ / 0-)

      The significant line is this:

      They also tend to either vastly underestimate human capacity to extract resources and the small percentage of the world's economy that goes into extracting any one resource (even oil)

      When the nearest well is so far away that you have to drink more water on the trip than you can carry back from it, Economics won't save you.

      This is not a hypothetical situation for a significant part of humanity.

      --
      Either get behind Obama 100% of GTFO of DailyKos.

      by DemCurious on Sun Jul 06, 2008 at 04:51:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  true story.... (7+ / 0-)

    out driving the backroads of WV and saw a small trailer picked clean of aluminum down to the wood slats.  Not sure why they kept that part, but pretty sure I know where the alumninum went.

    Plus, billboards warning that copper wire removed from houses can electrocute you.

    Also, my next door neighbor had to run out the house one morning and pull her copper gutters off a pickup truck speeding away.  They recycled them and replaced with aluminum as less tempting.

    You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. Aldous Huxley

    by murrayewv on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:05:42 PM PDT

  •  Interesting Article (7+ / 0-)

    Thanks. It goes to show that we need intelligent planning for the future, not just more stay-the-course middle-of-the-road bipartisanship that McCain, Obama, and most everyone else in power seems hell bent on pursuing.

    •  I'll bet Bu$hco has got a "faith-based" (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mdgarcia, cactusflinthead

      initiative to fix this thing.  Can't trust those eliist scientists, need to start praying or maybe outsource the whole project to Halliburton.

      What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is. ~ Dan Quayle

      by CParis on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:45:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Entropy will get you in the end (6+ / 0-)

    Take metals tightly bound up into seams and disperse the contents of those seams all over the world in various devices and materials.

    Now try to recover those devices and materials into new tightly bound forms for use in further devices and materials.

    You have to borrow negentropy by converting power sources to do it, thus adding to the heat balance of the world (usually via carbon-releasing mechanisms).

    A difficult problem indeed.

    You can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

    by A Mad Mad World on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:07:46 PM PDT

  •  I wonder mining sea water (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    skywaker9, PBnJ, blueyedace2, ER Doc

    Actually this idea comes from a sci-fi novel long ago, but there is a lot of stuff dissolved in the ocean, gold and silver, to name a couple.  If something became expensive enough, clever scientists might figure out a way to purify metals from the residue of desalinized sea water, and we could get fresh water in the bargain.

    In the long run, there really is no other source, is there?

    The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. --Goya

    by MadScientist on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:08:11 PM PDT

    •  Stranger things have happened (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueyedace2, ER Doc

      There was a history channel show last year on how much technology was inspired by the Star Wars films.  So you never know?

      "Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown

      by skywaker9 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:13:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Danger, Luke Skywalker 9 (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        zzyzx, FishOutofWater, BrandonM

        The dark side of the force is tempting but deadly.

        So tempting to think we can keep innovating our way past the limits to growth.  Just like the people sellling the fraudulent black boxes that claim to run automobiles on water.  

        For every addict there comes a time when they stop.  Or they die.  For humanity, which shall it be?  Live within nature's limits, or keep jonesing for growth until it kills us?  

        We are going to find out within the lifetimes of most of the people on this board.  

    •  Not much silver and gold... (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      skywaker9, mftalbot, ER Doc, MadScientist

      But plenty of other stuff.  You can get lithium carbonate for ~$30 a kilogram, for example, from seawater.  That's quite a bit more expensive than the current ~$5/kg, but still a tiny fraction the cost of the lithium-ion batteries you could make from it.

      You can get an idea of abundances here.

      •  Take out the hydrogen and oxygen by distillation (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ER Doc

        and suddenly those parts per million get a lot higher.  Thanks for the info.

        The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. --Goya

        by MadScientist on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 07:28:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, lots of approaches (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rawr, Calouste

          A really interesting one is materials that do "selective absorption", allowing, say, only heavy metals, or whatnot, into their structure.  You submerge them in optimal oceanic currents.  It's actually been tested to work, and works quite well.

          People who bet against technology's advance are virtually guaranteed to lose.  You can't say any particular tech will ever pay off, but predicting that no technology would pay off, which is what these doomers are doing, is always a very bad bet.

          •  Affinity Chromatography (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Rawr

            Lots of resins and proteins can pull metal ions out of solution quite well. Your thyroid for instance can absorb iodine pretty handily. This is also done routinely on an industrial scale. And there are a variety of electrochemical techniques that would work well in sea water.

          •  the issue right now seems to be (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by: