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Josh Marshall says:

On the other hand, wholly separate from the cosmetics and electioneering calculus, I think he'd be a good choice. On substance, maybe a really good choice. Most senators grasp of foreign policy is fairly thin -- and it tends to be heavily influenced by whatever lobbyists or power players are in their orbit. But Biden has a pretty deep knowledge of pretty much every big foreign policy question. And his ideas and judgment strike me as fundamentally sane.

Judgment? Biden voted for the Iraq war. But beyond that, even if we stipulate that he has foreign policy chops, how does that make him a good veep choice? It strikes me that any pick designed to cover up a "flaw" in Obama (i.e. "lack of foreign policy credentials") only accentuates those flaws. Make him secretary of state.

Sure, compared to Bayh and Kaine, Biden looks almost passable, but that's a low hurdle to pass. I'd rather not have to choose my poison. I'd rather have candy.

I'm already assuming disappointment on Obama's pick, so I won't belabor one bad choice or another. But I'd love to see him pick a fresh face in politics who reinforces Obama's message of change. Biden doesn't. Clinton doesn't. Bayh certainly doesn't. If holding out for Sebelius is too much to ask for, and if Obama is going to pick a guy that has been around for decades, then pick Kerry. Or even Daschle.

But the senator from MBNA? That choice would be exciting to perhaps two audiences -- the Broderites and the credit card industry.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:21 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  now even kos with the speculation (21+ / 0-)

    this is getting out of hand.  so many diaries on who it will be or a leak of some kind.

    It is going to be a long few days.

    "The only person sure of himself is the man who wishes to leave things as they are, and he dreams of an impossibility" -George M. Wrong.

    by statsone on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:22:27 PM PDT

    •  Press reprots now say (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Baldur, MA Voter

      Weds. at the earliest....

      "Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways."-Unknown

      by skywaker9 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:24:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And then all the talk about 'why that choice' (6+ / 0-)

      Loling is all one can do

    •  fun way to pass the insomnia! n/t (4+ / 0-)

      Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International and Your voice is needed!

      by tnichlsn on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "This is Barack Obama calling for Al Gore" (45+ / 0-)

      "Hello, Al?  As you know, the polls are tightening.  No other really compelling choice for Vice-President has emerged.  I'm afraid that I need you on my ticket.  Your party needs you, your country needs you, the world needs you.  I'm willing to give you authority comparable to that which Dick Cheney has had over energy and environmental issues.  Can I have an answer from you by tomorrow night?"

      John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:28:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Gawd. That scenario would make my friggin LIFE! (9+ / 0-)

        Obama/Hilton '08 - "Change that's hot!" ... wait a minute: HILlary + clinTON = HILTON! IT'S A PROPHECY/CURSE I TELLZ YA! ;)

        by VT ConQuest on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:31:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  About two years ago I started this campaign (4+ / 0-)

        season hoping for Gore/Obama '08. It was my dream ticket, not only because I wanted the Goracle to lead our nation, but because I wanted the "skinny kid with the funny name" to season into the President.
        How little did I know.
        And now the wheel has come full circle, and I'd have to think about selling organs to donate to Obama/Gore.
        Ain't life somethin'.

        Change is inevitable. Change for the better is a full time job. Adlai E. Stevenson

        by DaNang65 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:32:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It would be neat... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bethcf4p, Jfriday, SharaiP, fromer, sandav

          ...but you probably have better chances of getting struck by lightning this afternoon than seeing that ticket happen.

          Gore's been there and done that, twice. I don't think he's interested in the job again.

          •  sad but true (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bethcf4p, R Rhino from CT4, J M F

            even sadder and truer: the people most qualified for the VP slot are folks we've never heard of, cause they ain't politicians.  But America just doesn't work that way.  "politican" is a career description now.  So all the entrepreneurs, all the community leaders, teachers, preachers, all the people who get shit done, they are not possibilities.

            The choices appear to be either old Senators or new Senators.  What a diverse group to pick from!

            Dear Mr. President, There are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three.
            P.S. I am not a crackpot.
            /> -Abe Simpson

            by fromer on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:38:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I was right there with you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dave the Rave

          on Gore/Obama. While Gore will always be my dream prez, I do think I underestimated Obama's skills back then. I thought he needed "seasoning" too. But he has impressed.

          "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

          by pureproductofamerica on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:35:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Love Al. Voted for him twice. (7+ / 0-)

        Met him.  But this is not realistic - and doesn't feel right, on many levels.  Kerry?  Puhlease...!

        For MANY reasons heretofore ascertained, Clark is the logical pick, barring a serious, "unbeknownst-to-us" scandal.

        I'm hoping he's the pick, and I've noticed some encouraging facts.  Consider:

        Clark was the FIRST to engage McCain's simplistic, chest-thumping, service "qualifications" with essentially a "so what?".  McCainCo flipped out - understandably so.  "Supreme Allied Commander" rather outranks "Captain-who-crashed-five-planes" (and apparently had a karmic debt...)

        But everybody else thought "Good, surrogates can say these things that the candidate can't."  (That is exactly when we started hearing the very word "surrogate".)  

        But then he faded so completely out of the spotlight.  This was not exactly "simple" (talking-heads) surrogate behavior.  Indeed, it was so complete it seemed to be... strategic.

        Also, Sen. Obama positively mentioned Bosnia at the "Faith Forum".  You know, Gen. Clark is the author of the best selling book Waging Modern War: Bosnia, Kosovo and the Future of Combat AND Winning Modern War: Iraq, Terrorism and the American Empire.

        (That's one reason McCain is stomping around snorting "I know how to win wars!!!"  And you KNOW "Modern" gets the ol' goat...)

        So Wednesday's Democratic Convention theme is "Securing America's Future"?  Check out Clark's .

        I know there are some speculative "factors" suggesting that Clark is not the pick, but neither iteneraries, nor things family members say, should be considered "set in stone", based on MY life experience...

        We'll see.  I will be very disappointed if Gen. Clark doesn't come out of "left field".  He's just "the ticket", in my opinion.

        But I am attempting, as others here are, to steel myself against "disappointment" should this not come to pass.

        But DAMN, he'd be the best pick... and given the above, I maintain HOPE that he IS!  

        •  Make that "thrice" (voted for Gore). n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  You sound a lot like me (0+ / 0-)

          So far, Obama's greatest and probably most under-appreciated strength has been his strategic intelligence.

          I know that one guy or another helps him a lot in one dicey state or another, but the one person who does the most to add nationwide credibility and nationwide appeal to the ticket is Clark.  He knows how to follow.  He knows how to lead.  He knows how to stay out of the way.

          He is a proven warrior who can convincingly explain why war is the last resort -- but also knows how to win it once we go down that road.

          He's a proven spokesman.  He kicks ass thoroughly but politely.  He's not afraid to go for the rhetorical kill, which almost anybody who has spent 6 years in the Senate IS afraid to do.

          And there is nobody -- NOBODY -- who more effectively neutralizes the grumpy old man.  Everything that McCain boasts in leadership and military and geopolitical perspective, Clark trumps in spades.

          "Proud to be part of DailyKos -- the Best Political Team on . . . well, ANYWHERE"

          by Alden on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 08:36:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  even worse kos now is disappointed in a pick (15+ / 0-)

      that has not even been made.

    •  And how unfortunate that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Seneca Doane, eroded47095, polar bear

      you're forced to read and comment on each and every one ;)


      We are here to take it back. 01-03-08

      by IL dac on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:34:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No matter who Obama picks (15+ / 0-)

      I think over half of DKos will have a problem with that man/woman. Unless it's Gore, then maybe it'll be less than half.

      •  So true (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ibinreno, MinnesotaMom, Dark Ranger

        It is interesting too the fault lines--they cut across our group in unexpected ways. Some people love Biden, others can't stand him. I think an East Coast/West Coast thing, plus the MBNA issue (credit cards are to Delaware what corn and ethanol are to Iowa).

        Others really want Sibelius (she's new! fresh! a gov!), while yet others dread a woman veep choice (how much diversity can white guys vote for?)...

        Schweitzer has big fans. Clark has huge fans ("He's the only one!!!). Richardson too. Very interesting splits based on where we're from, whom we can't stand, the limits of our tolerances and interests.

    •  pardon my french (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      martyc35, Wishful Thinker

      ... but where the fuck is Webb in all this? and Biden?? gtfo. All the wacky shooting from the hip statements and the dental enhancements aside - perhaps as secretary of state I could understand but as VP, no way.

      •  No, not even as Sec. of State. (3+ / 0-)

        I can't figure out how come everyone who mentions Biden as a serious option for VP can't even remember that his biggest foreign policy plan (echo, echo, from the recent debates) was to chop Iraq into at least three separate states, whereupon the U.S. or Britain (heard that before?) would have to maintain this insane bifurcated occupation for god knows how long just to sort out who gets what for the oil. Geez us. I don't recall any support from Obama on that plan, so why in hell would O now choose Biden to help him govern? Other than all these comments in this diary, I agree that kos is jumping the gun, and I sincerely hope he doesn't have any inside information, because Biden would be a disastrous choice--Oh My God, as jefflieber has already said.

        "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

        by martyc35 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:35:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Three separate states would be better (10+ / 0-)

          Iraq was a country created from the British from roughly three different states.  It is a very unnatural state which is part of why it will have serious problems functioning.  Partitioning it would not really be that bad of an idea.  Most likely it will happen eventually anyway.  

          Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

          by Asak on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:10:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  His plan was to do to Iraq... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          what Clinton did to Yugoslavia in the 90s, and that worked out pretty well.

          If you look at the history of Iraq, the country was carved out by the British in 1920 with no say from the people themselves. They identify themselves more as Sunni, Shite, and Kurd more than Iraqi.

          "The only thing I would trust Dick Cheney on is if I had a dead hooker in my hotel room." --Jon Stewart

          by DemBrock on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:55:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good luck with relying (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            R Rhino from CT4

            on history here. One of our best experts on this region says it is inadvisable to partition contemporary Iraq into three states (see link). Where is most of the oil? In Kurdish territory, up north. In the former Yugoslavia, oil pipelines were a factor, but oil reserves were not huge. Oil was important in 1920 Iraq--ask the Brits--, but not as important as it is today. Yet the British and Tony Blair got involved in invading Iraq precisely because British corporations, BP and others, had interests there.

            Nevertheless, even now, in the former Yugoslavia, strife continues over Kosovo's bid to be a separate and free nation. Some neighbors there don't want any other neighbors having an advantage with NATO members. It ain't easy, any way you look at it, but with oil in the mix in Iraq, mostly sitting just southwest of Turkey in Kurdish territory, and some more in the southernmost Iraqi regions, partitioning is just a regional flame-up waiting to happen. Then, unless some very fancy tap-dancing takes place, the Iraqis will have to figure out what to do about having only one seaport, at Basra, and a whole bunch of oil way up there in Kurdistan. If Kurdistan becomes a separate nation, it will have to deal with Turkey, because Basra will then be off limits. That was Saddam Hussein's problem, you may recall. Getting rid of him did not solve that problem. Access is always a problem.

            People here often tout the wisdom of Juan Cole, but they hardly ever listen to him. The issues are complex and require complex solutions. It's just way too easy to say, hey, let's just divide the country up into three separate nations, and everything will be fine and dandy. That is dangerous, and I agree with Cole. The position pushed by you two commenters is the position taken by the Baker Commission, adopted by Biden, and it is wrong-headed, even though it sounds neat and clean. James Baker, though no Dick Cheney, is still a Republican and a friend of Bush senior. The interests of big oil corporations are at the heart of his and the commission's solutions. And Joe Biden has long represented the interests of many corporations, which have very comfortable arrangements in Delaware. I hope Obama has studied this issue.  

            "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

            by martyc35 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:50:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I think Webb took himself out of the running (0+ / 0-)

        or short list or he said he was not interested and wanted to stay in the Senate.

        Or Webb was not on the short list.

        The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

        by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:06:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  i think we need webb to stay in the senate. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
      •  Webb... (0+ / 0-)

        Unequivocally stated that he's not at all interested in the job.  It's not that he doesn't support Obama, but he feels his role and responsibility is to his VA constituents as a US Senator - he's only been on the job 2 years and doesn't want to bolt on them after only 1/3 of a term.

    •  The list of Obama's possible picks is depressing. (5+ / 0-)

      Biden and Bayh are at the top of the list of "establishment players" that cleave to the Washington, bi-partisan, corporatist/militarist/imperialist consensus.

      Just another consideration that leads me to the conclusion that "change" is just an empty marketing slogan.

      Haven't decided yet if I'm going to vote in the fall (and I live in Florida, too.)  But such possible VP running mates makes me want to sit the election out all the more.

      To quote the late, great Charles Bukowski, "the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats is the difference between warm shit and cold shit."

      •  So in 2000 there wasn't any difference (13+ / 0-)

        between Gore and Bush?  Bush and Kerry?  Obama and McCain?  All this because of a VP choice?

        John McCain: Vowing to connect real leaders with real bowels

        by chicago minx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:07:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, there wasn't that much difference (14+ / 1-)

          . . . not in the way they ran their campaigns.

          It wasn't until AFTER the 2000 election fiasco, when Al Gore emerged as an outspoken critic of Democratic capitulations and said that if he chose to run for President again that he would just "let it rip," that I said that I would vote for THAT Al Gore.

          And it isn't just because of a VP choice.  You don't seem to appreciate the context of my statement.  For Obama to choose such a VP choice, especially in the wake of his FISA capitulation (which he HAD TO DO if he wanted the support of congressional Democrats to help him win the presidency), is just another indication to me that we are just choosing between two different factions of a ruling, bi-partisan oligarchy in this country, and that the two different factions shore more in common than they disagree upon.

          Even with Obama as president, no that much is going to change.  Maybe the slide toward imperialistic/authoritarian state will be slowed down a bit (and for many people here, that's enough to satisfy them) for a few years . . . but this country is too far gone past the point of ever being able to reverse the massive growth of the Military-Industrial complex and its "war machine" agendas.

          Corporations more or less control both parties.  Thus, in the end, not that much is going to change no matter who gets elected.

          •  Again, it's choice between McCain and Obama. (13+ / 0-)

            If you think there is virtually no difference, I don't even know what to say to you.  

            John McCain: Vowing to connect real leaders with real bowels

            by chicago minx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:18:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There may be a difference, but not ENOUGH of (8+ / 0-)

              a difference to get me too motivated or excited about the prospect of voting.

              But it ALWAYS works this way in the American political system.  You always get a choice between the lesser of two evils.  The system is set up that way.

              I'm getting tired of participating in such a system.

              At this point, to tell you the truth, America's on its downhill slide and NOT MUCH, and certainly NO ONE POLITICIAN is going to rescue it.   It will increasingly be the land of the haves and have-nots, with the have-nots paying taxes to support a war machine that helps corporate interests rape the planet, while social problems that improve the quality of life for average citizens will continue to be starved.

              This will happen whether it's McCain in the White House, or Obama.  

              •  are you really not voting for voting for Nader or (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Prognosticator, stonepier, polar bear

                Barr? As some of what you are saying I have heard from a few third party candidates. I am not meaning to sound suspicious but I recall hearing things like this in 2000. And we found out and did we ever..there was HUGE difference between Gore and Bush. Some of us knew that but many former Nader voters would never vote for him or a 3rd party again..especially in a crucial state like Florida.

                The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

                by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:14:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think LR (0+ / 0-)

                  said he was voting for a third party candidate.

                  He/she simply pointed out how much the two major candidates have in common.  Which I think should be apparent to everyone.  It doesn't logically follow that he/she sees no difference, will not vote for Obama, etc.  These are knee jerk reactions that get quite tiresome.

                •  At this point, it is almost BEYOND voting (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  J M F, NYlawyer

                  for ANY ONE for me, as I really don't think it makes much difference.

                  If you read my original post on this thread, I basically said that I very well may not vote AT ALL.

                  I'm finding it very hard these days to believe that real change happens through the ballot box.  If anything, I think the illusion of change that the ballot box represents does nothing but co-opt the real desire of change on the part of the population, and divert it into nothingness, while simultaneously preserving the status quo.

                  I believe that America is long past any real notion of a meaningful democracy.  To me, it's all smoke and mirrors or a dog and pony show designed to hide from the people the fact that they really have no real voice or representation in government.

                  Moreover, I believe that the average American citizen (not necessarily the folks participating on the left blogosphere, who are too few proportionate to the population) is too dumbed down and too distracted to even be capable of taking part in real democracy.

                  The mistake, or lie, of the American system is confusing voting with "democracy."  Our "representative democracy" is nothing really but an elected oligarchy, in which the people largely have a choice between the spectrum of options running from A to B.  And our corporate media--the propaganda and brainwashing arm of this system--largely reflects that same narrow spectrum of debate and options.  And that elected oligarchy ends up doing the bidding of the wealthy, which usually means corporate powers.

                  •  In the main, I agree with your premise. Still, (0+ / 0-)

                    our voices and votes might in the long run make a difference. Work locally and build-up is the best we can do for the moment. Even so, the slide in this country over the last 40 years is all too real and I am less than optimistic about its future course.

              •  Too Far in Minimizing the Difference Between (4+ / 0-)

                McCain and Obama but Obama is no liberal by a long shot.

                The occupation of Iraq will continue and Afghanistan will probably continue to deteriorate.

                Energy problems will not be adequately addressed.

                Health care will continue in its abysmal primitive state.

                The poor will get poorer, the rich richer with workers mostly forgotten.

                The felons running things today will get off free along with their ill-gotten gains.

                And still there is hope of better with incremental change.  

                Certainly McCain offers nothing but disaster.

                Yeah there's a choice, a large choice, but not exactly all one could hope for.

                Certainly not any liberal.

                Best,  Terry

              •  It may WELL be that our (6+ / 0-)

                People's choices for relief are "slim" to "none".

                But let us TRY for "slim", eh?

              •  Then if things go wrong... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

       can shut the fuck up because you didn't participate.

                Obama/Clinton 2008. The likeliest ticket to win that won't happen, but it was nice to think about while it lasted.

                by alkatt on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:11:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Here's a difference: (0+ / 0-)

                Mccain would tip POTUS to the dark side, overturning Roe v. Wade and certainly screwing up other cases that come up, Obama would name justices that would keep the court balanced/nudge it leftward.

                This is no time to be metaphysical.

                •  Actually, I don't give a fuck too much about (0+ / 0-)

                  Roe v. Wade.  

                  Not that I don't think it's important, but one of the mistakes of the Democratic Party over the last several decades is making this an issue of PRIMARY importance, while ignoring the larger and more fundamental issues of class warfare, corporate control, and economics, and downright selling out the middle class.

                  In fact, all things being equal, if Roe v. Wade was the only thing that differentiated the Dems from the Republicans, I'd vote Republican . . . just out of spite.  That's called an "NPR-friendly Democratic Party."  I left that bullshit behind years ago.  

                  And don't kid yourself about the kinds of justices Obama would name.  Obama would name justices that would be acceptable to the corporate/ruling class establishment.  At best, they would be business-friendly "centrists" like Ginsberg and Breyer were with Clinton.  They'd slow the nation's decline down, but they'd do nothing really to stop it.  You're kidding yourself if you think they'd move the court to the left.  Ain't gonna happen.  Not in these times in which we live.  And therefore, it is YOU who is the one that is being metaphysical.

          •  I don't agree. (4+ / 0-)

            We've gone far...but too far? We won't know until we get there, but I'm not willing to cash in just yet and move to Canada.

            •  Fair enough. (13+ / 0-)

              And I've come pretty close to moving to another country.  The thing that convinced me not too (at the last minute) was not any great hope in what's happening here.  Rather, I just concluded that the same forces that are at work in the U.S. are also at work in other countries, increasingly attempting to destroy the middle-class, and increasingly trying to rape the planet for the benefit of the few on top.  Although other countries (namely, many of the European democracies and even Canada) are not quite as far along the path as this country has traveled, the election of this jerk in Canada, and of Merkel in Germany and Sarkozy in France should tell you all you need to know about the "new world order" promised by Bush I during his first term.

              It's here.  It's increasingly powerful and influential . . . and apparently irresistable (especially with how dumbed down and incapable of participation in real democracy western "consumers" have become and are becoming.)

              Welcome to the world of trans-national corporate rule, with national governments being the puppets behind which these entities hide and the marrionettes they manipulate to their wills.

              •  That is absolutely right. (6+ / 0-)

                I have lived in France since 1990 (I have a French wife) and although France is still light years ahead of the U.S. insofar as caring for its citizens, that is starting to slowly erode under Sarkozy, with the French people hardly noticing.

                " Let us stop, look and listen. Let us not give this president or any president unchecked power. Remember the Constitution." Sen Rob't. Byrd 10/11/02.

                by LEP on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:08:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  While I agree with you (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                I think go along with the motto that 'no every citizen is sleeping, some are awake thus they must be trying to wake others up'

                I am voting for Obama. I am voting with the hope that I and many like me will actually hold him accountable and the senate majority. That we will not just be reactionary all the damn time but actually be proactive. Be on the streets and in their faces, that's what this vote for me is about. I have learned as you have that this democracy is for corporations. Folks in US and around the world are slowly waking up but just have to make sure it is not too late.

                I can't be pessimistic. I can't be when i think of the american revolution, civil war, slavery etc. I know there is a dumbing down of America but I do my part talking and entitling folks. I understand your frustrations but this nation was built by rebels, now we just need the citizenry to go into their "inner rebel" and not be afraid to speak out or we will keep sliding.

            •  At least I can.. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wishingwell, WriterRoss, Uncle Moji

              move to Canada if I need to.
              I'll say a prayer for the rest of you if this election does'nt work out.

              •  How much longer do you think (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Cyber Kat

                Canada is going to be able to stay the relatively safe, sane, progressive and prosperous nation that it is, given the current direction of the global, neo-liberal consensus that seems to be at work now in all western "democracies?"

              •  Canada takes power away from its citizens, too, (3+ / 0-)

                if they don't like the way things are going.  They've gone back on environmental promises, they participated in the meeting of the U.S., Canada, & Mexico, where they all said they would use their military in the other's countries if the other country needed them, basically to put down citizen uprisings, although i'm sure they use the cloak of terrorism.

                Some things are better, but i don't think it's all that.

                Health care is better, definitely.

                Any Canadians out there who could let us know?  i'd love to be wrong.

          •  I'm sorry but (6+ / 0-)

            I hate the fact that you're in my party.

            I hate pessimists.

            And I think you're full of Republican shit.

            You get a hide rate for fucking over my candidate before the election.

            You're helping the Conservatives, and that's not fucking allowed.

            "Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear: Parents, Teachers, and Associations." [Rob Petrie]

            by eroded47095 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:25:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm NOT in your party. (10+ / 1-)

              I haven't called myself a Democrat since 1993 when I witnessed the first year of Clinton's presidency and saw all his betrayals and sell outs of progressive values.

              Nothing I've watched from the Democratic Party D.C. establishment since then has departed from Clinton's precedent.

              So, don't INSULT me by including me in your "party."

              •  Good on me then (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bethcf4p, bookkillrr, sandav, Tommymac

                Donuts galore!

                Open wide Democrat hater!

                "Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear: Parents, Teachers, and Associations." [Rob Petrie]

                by eroded47095 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:31:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I guess calling people names works for you. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  eagle5, Cyber Kat, ppl can fly

                  That way, you don't have to deal with the points being made.

                  Nice to see you haven't gotten past the third grade.

                  Run along now, little school child.  

                  •  I hate all this shit (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sandav, Tommymac

                    But here is the shit that makes your ass "illegal"

                    This site is primarily a Democratic site, with a heavy emphasis on progressive politics. It is not intended for Republicans, or conservatives. It is not intended for third parties, either, although it happens that the goals of progressive third parties and progressive Democrats tend to align in mutually beneficial ways. The community, however, is currently self-selected to be a moderate-left, progressive, and almost exclusively Democratic site. That's who Kos tends to focus on; that's the kind of people he chooses as guest editorialists for his site; that's who the site caters to.


                    I won't look for you, remember you, or troll rate you in the future unless you demand it.

                    I hate the fact that you've consumed my time like this.

                    Every troll exists to consume the time of others,

                    And that is their shitty crime.

                    Auf wiederwehen, time-wasting troll.

                    "Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear: Parents, Teachers, and Associations." [Rob Petrie]

                    by eroded47095 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:44:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This is hillarious (6+ / 0-)

                      "I hate the fact that you've consumed my time like this."

                      Excuse me, but I didn't put a gun to your head and FORCE you to respond to my comments.  That is something YOU CHOSE to do . . . not me.

                      And for you to blame me for YOUR CHOICES by saying that I've consumed your time, reeks of a complete failure to take responsibility for one's own choices.  

                      I would have had more respect for you if you'd said, "I hate MYSELF for choosing to respond to a troll . . . or asshole . . . or whatever, and I wish I had just ignored you."  Instead, you blamed ME for your choices.

                      How rich.  

                      •  It's like watching a scuffle in the sawdust (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        One little anti-Democrat fighting himself to death.

                        Good-bye anti-Democrat.

                        What a fun day meeting new "Persons!!!"

                        "Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear: Parents, Teachers, and Associations." [Rob Petrie]

                        by eroded47095 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:04:05 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I understand your POV but isn't this a bit (0+ / 0-)

                          rooting for laundry?  Do you really want Chris Carney, John Barrow just because of the D's next to their names?  Look at how putrid the 110th Congress has been.  It was nice to vote for Democrats, but we collectively ended up putting in a number of lousy Democrats -- pretend Republicans really.  The Congressional Democratic leadership has fairly open contempt for progressive politics, and almost no stomach for debate.

                          Certainly Dems > Reps, but in order to take the House and Senate away from the Republicans, a number of Congressional Democrats did so by becoming honorary Republicans.  While this is good for the party procedurally, there is still this thing about governing a country -- and the Dems have failed miserably at that since 2006.  

                          I am a Democrat.  I am just steamed that the Democrats basically ran afoul of its voters in the last two years.  If this is what Democratic Congressional rule is, I don't want it.

                    •  I agree with your observation that (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      But here is the shit that makes your ass "illegal"

                       This site is primarily a Democratic site, with a heavy emphasis on progressive politics. It is not intended for Republicans, or conservatives . . . The community [] is currently self-selected to be a moderate-left, progressive, and almost exclusively Democratic site. That's who Kos tends to focus on . . .
             (emphasis added)

                      In other words "more and better Democrats."

                      Seems pretty clear to me that LivinginReality is focused, in reality, on getting "better Democrats." That may be "illegal" on Meet The Press or the other Sunday talk shows, but it certainly flies here.

                      From the quote used from dkospedia, it sounds like your supporting LivinginReality's position more than disagreeing with it.



                      Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

                      by Caoimhin Laochdha on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:17:42 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Of course... (4+ / 0-)

                        His voice is valid and he is right to be pushing for more progressivism in the party.

                        But his capitulation to the conservatives if we don't attain his perfect ideal right this second is nauseating.

                        Every negative thing you said about Bill Clinton is absolutely spot-on.  I have the same criticisms of him for moving us away from progressivism.

                        That said, you can't look me squarely in the eye and tell me that his presidency was no better than the chimpanzee who has occupied the WH for the last 8 years with a straight face.

                        I ain't buying it.  DOMA, welfare reform, and DADT all sucked.  But their level of suckitude PALES in comparison to the Patriot Act, GITMO, ever-expanding GWOT, and everything else George W. Bush represents.

                        Clinton is no progressive; compared to George W. Bush, however, he's the 2nd Coming of FDR.  And the same analogy holds true with Obama and McCain.

                        •  mixed comments (0+ / 0-)

                          I did not say anything about Bill Clinton. My comments were about electing "better Democrats" and up-thread about gross troll rating abuse.

                          Personally, I have good memories of his administration - more good ones than bad and most of the bad I give far more blame to the GOP Congress and a fearful illiberal electorate.

                          I've said this a thousand times:

                          That said, you can't look me squarely in the eye and tell me that his presidency was no better than the chimpanzee who has occupied the WH for the last 8 years with a straight face.

                          I ain't buying it.  DOMA, welfare reform, and DADT all sucked.  But their level of suckitude PALES in comparison to the Patriot Act, GITMO, ever-expanding GWOT, and everything else George W. Bush represents.



                          Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

                          by Caoimhin Laochdha on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:29:08 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Notice the qualifier-- (0+ / 0-)

                      PRIMARILY.  That doesn't mean EXCLUSIVELY.

                •  Nice call. (0+ / 0-)

                  Good Job.

                  Help, my country has been hijacked by an idiot cowboy.

                  by bookkillrr on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:00:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  So why come to a sight dedicated to electing (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Democrats? And hopefully more progressive Democrats as time goes on.

                The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

                by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:17:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  not to get too nitpicky (0+ / 0-)

              i can understand your frustration but i wanted to express my reaction to your multiple usage of the word hate. hate weakens a person, and not the one you aim for. it also weakens your argument because anyone reading knows it is coming from someone not in balance. having hate in your heart is about as disfunctional as you can be.

              i just thought i would share that w/you. if you do feel hate you may want to keep it to yourself. it hurts the team. i also notice down thread you use the word in the subject line which places it in bold. it screams of weakness.

              btw, billmon recently linked to an excellent bill moyer's interview w/the esteemed Andrew J. Bacevich. one could hardly consider him an enemy of the state. he makes a few points that may assist you in understanding that which you hate.

              keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

              don't throw tantrums and good luck w/your journey.

            •  There was no basis (0+ / 0-)

              for your hide rating.  If you can't tolerate discussion, this blog isn't for you.

          •  You may not see a difference, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rightiswrong, bethcf4p

            but my friends serving in the USMC in Iraq do.  Please do not vote for the man who said he'd keep them there for a hundred years.

            John McCain wants to stay in Iraq for a century.

            by jkfp2004 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:21:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Agree w/military angle (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            eagle5, ppl can fly

            disagree w/some of the political analysis (but share frustration w/Gore's 2000 race).

            MOSTLY, however, I uprated because whoever punched the hide button is being an asshole.

            There is nothing troll/hidable about what LivinginReality said. Get a grip.



            Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

            by Caoimhin Laochdha on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:03:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm thinking this is true (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie, ppl can fly

            Even with Obama as president, no that much is going to change.  Maybe the slide toward imperialistic/authoritarian state will be slowed down a bit (and for many people here, that's enough to satisfy them) for a few years . . . but this country is too far gone past the point of ever being able to reverse the massive growth of the Military-Industrial complex and its "war machine" agendas.

            But I'd much rather the slide toward an imperialistic/authoritarian state be slowed.  At least we MIGHT have a chance of doing something to halt that slide.

            I think it's up to us.  We need to be the driving force.  It's going to be a long hard slog and electing Obama is, at the very least, a step in the right direction.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed that some of the things he's doing are just so he can get elected.  He wasn't my first choice because, I thought he leaned to far toward the corporate side of the scale, but I'm behind him all the way.  At this point I don't think we can do anything other than get him elected and hope for the best.

            "If you don't enforce the law, you create contempt for the law" --Elizabeth Holtzman
            Impeach Cheney first!

            by Cyber Kat on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:24:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's also key to think about the alternative (0+ / 0-)

              I don't think Obama alone can change everything.  I don't think our work will be done on Jan. 20.  He'll need our help.  But he's already said that.  We've got to be ready because the R's are already making plans to undermine him and take back Congress is 2010.

              But let's accept the argument:  the choices are similar.  So, what happens if it's Mccain?

              Will he send the army somewhere, willy-nilly, just 'cause?  Will he executive order his will around Congress?  It's worked before, why wouldn't it work again?  And if he gets us into another war -- Iran, Russia, etc. -- one that we can't draw down from -- would that mean a draft?  Borrowing even more money from China and Japan to pay for it?  Because we can't raise taxes.  Anything but that.

              Mccain is a nightmare scenario.  He is not the lesser of two evils.  He is the big bad.  

      •  Well, I'm glad *someone* is above it all (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bethcf4p, brainiacamor, Baldur, creamer

        and needn't worry about the practical effects of who wins.  I'm not above it all.

        John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

        by Seneca Doane on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:07:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I've been disappointed too with the supposed (7+ / 0-)

        shortlist. I love Biden, but a Biden Bayh Kaine shortlist is weak as hell. They should have been on the extended shortlist of 10-ish candidates, but Bayh and Kaine should never have gotten serious consideration when we have options including Wesley Clark to choose from.

        "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." -Horace Mann

        by Big Danny on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:10:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It just tells me that the DLC mindset and its (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ppl can fly, polar bear

          network of power interests that support it is alive and well in D.C. . . . no matter what Kos told us a few years ago, and no matter how much PUBLICLY, few Democratic politicians want to be associated it with it.

          The DLC and its mindset is part of the Democratic Party establishment's modus operandi.

        •  Catholic (0+ / 0-)

          The real swing vote in this election is the Catholic vote, and Biden and Kaine are Catholic. Biden's wife is Mormon and would have been an okay counter to Romney.

          Bayh is Episcopalian.

          I think someone from the West would be best, but I don't know who -- and I also like Mark Warner of VA.

          "We were using techniques the Koreans had specifically developed in order to prepare prisoners for show trials." -- p. 278, Spook Country, William Gibson

          by agoldnyc on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:03:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Vote for the top of the ticket then..most do (0+ / 0-)

        The President sets the agenda. Not every VP takes over and runs things like Cheney. Obama would never allow his VP or anyone to do his job or take over.

        The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

        by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:08:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  not true, if you look at the facts. (0+ / 0-)

        Dems should be a LOT better, but really, the difference in civil liberties, environment, poverty, and others is often substantial.

      •  You are a doo doo head. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bethcf4p, sandav, Subo

        Go vote for your green party.
        Joe Biden is the kick in the ass this country needs.

        You will regret saying anything negitive about Joe Biden within one week of Obama/Biden landing.

        The guy is not perfect, but pretty fricking close.

        I can't wait to get two "Tell it like it is" people in the white house.    

        Can you believe there are still millions of Republicans out there thinking "Global Warming" is not real.  

        I dig Joe Biden.  We are lucky to have him.

        Help, my country has been hijacked by an idiot cowboy.

        by bookkillrr on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:38:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you talking about the same Joe Biden (0+ / 0-)

          that was caught plagarizing a British politician's speech during his last run for the presidency in '88 or '92?

          Are you talking about the same Joe Biden that was on board with the bankruptcy bill legislation (and had to be if he wanted to continue representing "corporate whorehouse" Delaware)?

          Are you talking about the same Joe Biden that is part of the "moderate," sensible, bi-partisan ruling foreign policy consensus in D.C. . . . you know, the one where the United States is the world's top dog and basically tries to tell every other country what to do?

          Is this the same Joe Biden that you laud?

          Or are you also one of those "low information" voters that didn't know about these things . . . . or  worse, doesn't care?

          •  You are not living in reality (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            You are repeating the talking points about Biden that people reproduce here without knowing what they are writing about.  Others have refuted them in this thread.  Go read, then follow links to truth.

            •  Actually, it is YOU that doesn't know what (0+ / 0-)

              he's talking about.

              I've been watching this guy in action a LONG time.  I'm old enough to remember when he got busted for platiarizing.

              Do you remember that incident?  Were you even born yet?  

              So, prove me wrong on any one of the points I made.  Go ahead.  Try it.

              •  Very lame attempt (0+ / 0-)

                Don't tell me . He took words like "Positive" "Hope" The Future   "We Can"
                "Taxes"  and stole them and used them for his use.

                Joe Biden is brilliant.  out of 25 years of public service you can only come up with one issue?

                Go cheer on McCain.

                Help, my country has been hijacked by an idiot cowboy.

                by bookkillrr on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:22:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Haven't decided yet... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sandav, mdmslle, ahyums

        If you're going to vote in the Fall?  And you live in Florida?


        Obama could put Crusty the Freaking Clown on his ticket and he'd still get my vote.  Why?  Because whatever failings our Democrats have had in recent years - and they have had many - they PALE in comparison to the failings of their GOP counterparts.

        Try to tell me with a straight face that you really believe that Obama-Biden (or any other possible VP you don't like) would be no better than McCain-Whoever.

        It's no freaking contest.  And if I have a choice between a less than ideal Democratic Ticket that I trust will at least move in the right direction versus a Republican ticket which is guaranteed to only take us down further, I'm picking the Democratic ticket.

        This is where I get so PO'd at my fellow Dems so much.  We want the absolute model of our vision of the perfect progressive candidates, and anything short of that we just say fuck it and throw in the towel.  Conservatives can't stand John McCain and don't see him as "one of them" - but you can bet your ass that they'll get out to vote for him regardless, because to them the alternative is so much worse.

        Only two multiterm presidents in our Party since the 1930s?  This shit is why.

        We need to understand that 10 times out of 10, SOMETHING is better than nothing.  Even when that something falls short of our ideal, that something is still a step in the right direction.  If you're running a marathon for the first time in your life, are you gonna quit in your first week of training because you couldn't run 20 miles?

        We gotta quit shooting ourselves in the foot with these all-or-nothing expectations.  Because we ALWAYS lose when let ourselves go there.  And if you're the type who skipped out on voting in 2004 because you found Kerry to be thoroughly unimpressive (I sure as hell did), you bear part of the blame for what we wound up getting.

      •  Speaking of reality (0+ / 0-)

        All of Obama's picks are better than the GOP choices. I'm having trouble deciding which one I like beset because they all have some excellent qualities. Trying seeing what's in the glass, not what's out of it.

      •  He should have picked Clark (0+ / 0-)

        He's teetering on the brink of disaster by not having a veep with creds like Wes Clark.  Why do we Dems self-destruct like this time after time??

        •  Democrats "self-destruct" like this because (0+ / 0-)

          they are beholden to powerful interests and agendas and considerations that exist BEHIND THE SCENES that limit their choices to those options that are palatable to those interests, agendas and options.

          The voting public is too distracted and fooled by the actual show of politics to realize that the backroom and board-room deals and alliances are the things that are determining public policy as much as, if not more, than the wishes of the voters.

          Hence, the FISA "capitulation" on the part of Obama.

          The choices that Obama is considering for VP--all establishment, Democratic "centrists" that will assure those wealthy/powerful people that benefit from the status quo that the status quo won't change too much--is the result of a lot of pressure being brought to bear on him by powerful and influential interests in the Dem party that are acting behind the scenes . . . and which your corporate media will certainly never tell you about.

          And because Dems' hands are tied by such considerations, they never come out and take courageous chances or do what is right . . . to capture the imaginations and passions (much less represent the interests) of the voting public.  And then they end up justifying their positions and capitulations by bullshit about having to "move to the center."  

          Yeah.  Right.  And the sucker party partisans swallow this shit, hook, line, and sinker.

        •  Uh... he hasn't picked yet. (0+ / 0-)
    •  Thanks Kos for saying what I've been saying all (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NealB, Wishful Thinker, ppl can fly
      Day. Biden is an absolutely disastrous choice for Obama. Obama needs to stay the fuck away from Biden.    
    •  The Top 3: Either a good sign or a bad sign (7+ / 0-)

      If true, then they signal that Obama is clinging to the safest, most boring possible course. Not a good sign for things to come (flashbacks of 2000 and 2004).

      If false, then sending up these decoys is a brilliant move. Any big surprise is sure to be huge news.  

      I'm still hoping for Wes Clark or Brian Schweitzer.  

      •  Brian Schweitzer? The guy from Stray Cats? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brainiacamor, tammanycall

        Oh.. ok.. had to Google this Brian Schweitzer fella.. not a lot of name recognition there.. would he help win Montana?  lol

        "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

        by Skeptical Bastard on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:00:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  GOOGLE WES CLARK (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          diana04, brainiacamor, Joe Friday

 there's a guy who would be a perfect fit for Obama's veep!

           Who the fuck is advising Obama anyway??  Sam Nunn?  Joe Biden?  Evan Bayh?   Give me a break!  Is Obama that threatened that he'd pick these losers??  

        •  Funny (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:


        •  Outside of Delaware (0+ / 0-)

          Who knows who Biden is? Most Americans don't watch Meet the Press. The pick will create instant notoriety in and of itself.

          And when the media discusses Biden, what are the three or four big things they're going to say? Plagiarism; Perennial Bridesmaid, never the Bride; Beltway insider strong on Foreign Policy; East Coast Democrat; Senator (part of that branch of the government with lower approval ratings than Bush).

          Schweitzer would be a lot more interesting to the media and to most Americans. Blue gov in a Western state (and a governor - that is, executive experience not Congressional Country Club gladhanding), rancher, businessman, the rural good old boy to balance out the urban/urbaine Obama.

          You got no fear of the underdog. That's why you will not survive. - Spoon

          by brainiacamor on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:54:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Everyone knows Biden (0+ / 0-)

            He was front and center in the Clarence Thomas hearings and prominent in many other hearings over the years.  Add to that his appearances in the Dem primary debates (there's was like 200 of them, right?), and I really doubt many voters don't know Joe Biden.

            "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

            by Skeptical Bastard on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:06:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Trust me (0+ / 0-)

              No one outside of the East Coast at best knows/cares who Biden is unless she/he is a political junkie. More people will know the VP pick - if not Biden - one day after Barack announces it than will know Biden, and within a week that name will be all over the planet. Look at Joe Lieberman. Unless they recalled him as a shameless jerk from the Lewinsky pseudoscandal I don't think anyone could have picked him out of a pack of DPS clerks the day before Gore picked him. But as soon as Gore nominated him, he was instantly known.

              So what's important is.... what will be said about him? In Biden's case, not much that's attractive. But then I'm biased against the Senate and maybe not fair. Unless Congress's single digit approval numbers matter.

              You got no fear of the underdog. That's why you will not survive. - Spoon

              by brainiacamor on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:19:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, I won't argue the point.. (0+ / 0-)

                You very well may be right.

                Personally, I think Biden would be a bad choice simply because he's a senator.

                "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

                by Skeptical Bastard on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:24:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, I'm with you on the Senator part (0+ / 0-)

                  I think the strongest candidates are typically governors. Provided they are not governors of states where the Lt. Gov has all the power or Florida.

                  Governors have to make and weather difficult choices. The Senate seems to be a place where someone else is always to blame and few seem to actually understand what they're talking about because they are coddled and cocooned like heiresses. Just watch Harry Reid trying to explain the way he votes, for example, or John McCain or Ted Stevens trying to explain pretty much anything.

                  You got no fear of the underdog. That's why you will not survive. - Spoon

                  by brainiacamor on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:02:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

  •  I'll take Biden over Bayh anyday. (36+ / 0-)

    Thats what we are done to I spose.

    A United States Marine, still fighting for our Constitution and our country! I Support and Defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

    by DemMarineVet on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:23:10 PM PDT

  •  Obama/Tamifah 2008 ... texting out now!!! (nt) (4+ / 0-)

    I'm kind of stalling for time here...They told me what to say. George W Bush, 03-21-2006 10:00 EST Press Conference

    by Tamifah on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:23:41 PM PDT

  •  Elizabeth Edwards? n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    filby, ozarkspark

    Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International and Your voice is needed!

    by tnichlsn on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:24:06 PM PDT

    •  And, why? (5+ / 0-)

      John McCain: Vowing to connect real leaders with real bowels

      by chicago minx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:27:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've lost all respect for her. She let her (3+ / 0-)

      sleazeball of her husband run for president, taking into account that if he's our nominee and his affair becomes public - that's the end of our chances to regain the WH.

      Nothing defines spineless, opportunistic selfishness in my book more than that. They both disgust me and I'm glad they've been tossed like yesterday's trash.

      Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty ::Thomas Jefferson::

      by Jeremy10036 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:41:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  don't blame her. It's John's fault. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        polar bear

        egotistical bastard. I have lost all respect for him.

        "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." -Horace Mann

        by Big Danny on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:18:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of course it's his fault (4+ / 0-)

          But she could have put her foot down;  he couldn't have run without her consent.  Her credibility took a big hit when she was complicit in the deception.

          John McCain: Vowing to connect real leaders with real bowels

          by chicago minx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:21:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I realize that as well, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            polar bear

            but I get pissed at these guys who crisscross the country proclaiming how much they love their wives whilst cheating on them. I guess I just have a different brain chemistry. If I married someone (I'm 19), then I would have no desire to cheat on them, even if it's with a supermodel. I think  someone who cheats on their spouse is fundamentally screwed up in the head, and I can't trust someone who does that.

            "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity." -Horace Mann

            by Big Danny on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:18:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  yup (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            and it seems to me th e"universe" gave them a perfect plausibly deniable reason NOT to enter the race. I'm glad she's better now but that would have been the exceptable reason to stay out without raising any eyebrows.

            Give Em Hell!! OBAMA 08

            by mdmslle on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:35:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Jesus, that's harsh (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, carllaw

        You must have missed the diary that she wrote, hoping to clear the putrid air of nastiness about her husband.

        Conservatives are close-minded, shallow, superficial people that live in a fantasy world where everything is black and white and there are NO shades of gray.

        by Brad007 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:21:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This statement... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        polar bear

        ... says more about you than about Elizabeth Edwards. Passing this kind of judgement on someone who clearly was and still is in an extremely difficult position - fighting cancer and dealing with the infidelity of the man she had spent her whole life with, who is the father of her children and with whom she went through losing a child in a car accident. Maybe her reaction was wrong, I don't know. But any decent human being would cut her some slack. I mean these people are human, they aren't perfect,they make mistakes. Sorry, but making this post you must be a vey hateful person. 

        I'll see you at the debates, bitches. (Paris Hilton)

        by Anneus on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:11:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm very hateful towards someone who puts him or (0+ / 0-)

          herself before his or her country. And what the heck does her cancer or loss have to do with anything?

          I have sympathy to her and her struggles in life and I wish her a speedy recovery, but knowingly putting the future of our country at risk to advance her and her husband's political agenda is despicable. How would you feel if John Edwards was our nominee and this mess came to surface? What would it do to the future of our country? Would you excuse it by saying "well gosh. The poor woman has cancer and she lost a child so I guess it balances it all out"?

          Sorry, but your user name alludes to the organ you use to think with...  

          Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty ::Thomas Jefferson::

          by Jeremy10036 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:07:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My username actually alludes to... (0+ / 0-)

            ... the second name of the Roman philosopher Seneca, but how should you know. This last childish remark of yours just is more evidence that you seem to be a rather hateful person who obviously lacks a fundamental sense of decency. I don't know how important your family is to you, but in my opinion one's family is definitely more important than one's country. So I would put not necessarily myself but certainly my family before my country.   You say you lost ALL respect for her. So you are clearly judging her solely on this one decision. Seems to me a rather narrow standard. Again, if this decision was right or wrong, I don't know. But even if it was wrong, I certainly haven't lost ALL respect for her. She didn't make this decision as a candidates spouse or as an American citizen. Most of all she made it as a wife and mother.I most certainly would excuse it by saying "well gosh, that's a awful difficult decision to be in even if you weren't battling cancer. And I would excuse it being aware of my own imperfections. I just hope for you that you are more perfect than the rest of us, always putting your country before yourself, never making mistakes and being just your perfect self meeting the very high standards that you measure other people by.  

            I'll see you at the debates, bitches. (Paris Hilton)

            by Anneus on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:22:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bullshit...Jesus, such simplistic sentimental (0+ / 0-)


              How can you even give way to the backward thought that preventing another family's loss in Iraq, preventing another home lost to foreign banks, another job being shipped overseas and the multitude of crap that Bush and his henchman McCain have put us through - is all excusable because Elizabeth put her family before her country? Do you even read the nonsense you spew? Seriously.

              And don't you dare lecture me about my family you heartless asshole. I lost a brother and cousin in Iraq, in a war that holier-than-thou Mrs Edwards would rather see continue without an end in sight than say to her husband: "you know what? You made a terrible mistake that would put the future of our country in jeopardy if you became the nominee and the affair became public."
              And how the heck does her decision advance her cause as a mother and wife? You're implying that her kids would have a better life knowing that their dad lost the election because it became public that he cheated on their mom?

              Honestly, go back to your sandbox.

              Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty ::Thomas Jefferson::

              by Jeremy10036 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:38:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm sorry for... (0+ / 0-)

                ... your loss of your brother and your cousin. Nevertheless, I don't believe that makes your namecalling more justified or less inappropriate.
                Maybe calling one sentimental is an insult for you but for me it is actually not. (although that kind of contradicts your "heartless asshole" remark).

                I can actually understand your anger about Edwards, even though I don't share it. What I can't understand, is the degree to which you totally condemn someone. Again she might have made a mistake, I don't know, but she well might have. I just think "losing ALL respect for her" because of that is rather harsh. I just refuse to be all excited about that, but maybe that's a question of temper and general philosphy of life. Again, I know how imperfect I am as a human being and that's why I would never totally condemn someone else for his or her imperfections, especially if I don't know all the circumstances (How do you know she didn't say to him exactly what you suggested but she couldn't convince him). There are still many things I respect Elizabeth AND John Edwards for. I see that you disagree, and if it helps you in some way to make fun of my username or call me names, then feel free to do so.

                I'll see you at the debates, bitches. (Paris Hilton)

                by Anneus on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:14:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  First of all, thank you for your kind words (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  in the offset of your remarks.

                  This exchange between us, which now I regret as it became ugly between two people who clearly have the best intentions at heart, became personal when you wrote "you must be a very hateful person". I don't think that was necessary, as you don't know me and you can't read my heart. Had you merely written your comments without adding a personal attack, it wouldn't have reached the gutter level it unfortunately reached. Mrs. Edwards is a public figure and I'm judging her on her public admission, so as such she's open to judgment. That's the give and take when you're in politics. That doesn't mean you or anyone has the right to conclude that I'm hateful merely because I declare I lost respect for someone in the public arena.

                  But to the matter at hand. I'm as imperfect as you or the other person. No one is above sin or failure. But with a hand on my heart I can tell you that if my spouse was running for office and she had a bag of fleas in her past that would put our country at risk by her losing the election, you can bet the bank that I would do everything possible to prevent that from happening.

                  Of course, you could be right in suggesting that perhaps she tried to talk him out of it and he wouldn't listen. But her comments don't suggest that.

                  Anyway, hope the above clarifies. I regret the personal back and forth and hope we can avoid it in the future.

                  Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty ::Thomas Jefferson::

                  by Jeremy10036 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:31:20 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  So did Hillary Clinton (0+ / 0-)

        back in 1992 -- remember Gennifer Flowers? It's rumored that Hillary knew exactly the kind of man she'd married -- and for whatever reason, stayed with him and kept her mouth shut.

        "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

        by Cali Scribe on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:59:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Rumored". Exactly (0+ / 0-)

          If Hillary indeed knew about it, that puts her in the same sordid league as Elizabeth.

          But we don't know that, do we?

          Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty ::Thomas Jefferson::

          by Jeremy10036 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:09:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  She knew (0+ / 0-)

            He's that kind of man.  Compulsive.  One of the biggest cons re HRC as veep is that WJC would not survive the vetting.  People focus on his business contacts, but I'll be damned if he hasn't fooled around in the 8 years since he left the WH.

            However, the Lewinsky scandal was the first time a President's extramarital affairs were covered the way they are now, so the Clintons (and first families before them) had some expectation of privacy in this area.  So silence pre-Lewinsky would not "put her in the same sordid league..", but silence post HRC commencing her own run for the presidency is a different story.

            Lastly, Elizabeth Edwards is the opposite of sordid.

    •  Isn't she still struggling (0+ / 0-)

      with health issues?  In which case, her plate is full.

  •  don't know much about Sibelius (7+ / 0-)

    but I wouldn't object.

    Wonder how the PUMAs would react....

  •  Kerry, likely. Someone who surprises everyone, .. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    thinkdouble, IL dac, dkosdan

    ... even more so.

  •  I have Webb as a darkhorse. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, serrano, tammanycall

    I think, more than ever, a man like Webb is needed.

    "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16

    by Setrak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:24:59 PM PDT

  •  Clark. NT (5+ / 0-)

    Obama/Clark '08 / -9.4, -7.0 / Logic

    by Junah on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:25:34 PM PDT

  •  I know I am too much of an optimist but... (17+ / 0-)

    ...I like Clark.

    Obama Clark; an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:25:47 PM PDT

    •  Something still bothers me about Clark (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MJB, slaney black, MySobriquet

      Sometimes I get a creepy sort of feeling when I see photos of him, but I can't quite put my finger on it.



      John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:32:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Clark never won an election (4+ / 0-)

      Clark's stature does not even approach Eisenhower (so no general comparisons)

      There is no proof that he knows how to campaign and win.

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:49:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Clarks stature does not even approach Eisenhower? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:


        Eisenhower was one of two 5 star generals in WWII.

        How the fuck is any general supposed to compare to the legendary Eisenhower?

        Thats like saying well, Obamas stature does not even approach that of FDRs, so no general comparisons.

        Seriously, wtf.

        •  Eisenhowers won his first election as President (0+ / 0-)

          My comment against Clark as VP was that he never won an election - and therefore has never proven a winning ability in a political campaign.

          A person would likely counter my comment with Eisenhower was a general who won his first election as President, therefore Clark having been a general could win something similar.

          The difference between Clark and Eisenhower's stature is a critical difference in being able to make the leap into politics.  BTW, President Grant also won his first election as president (but he got credit for winning the Civil War).

          Clark is just not in the same league as Eisenhower or Grant in having his military career make a powerful foundation for high office.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:58:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  FDR won elections before running for president (0+ / 0-)

          FDR was a first term NY governer - won the election. And state senator for one term - won the election.  Unlike Clark wo has never won an election.

          When FDR was elected president the first time his stature was not that different from Obama's today (except govenors have a better track record winning the presidency than senators - over the past 100 years)

          Obama won statewide office and a state senate seat - just like FDR when runniong for president the first time.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:13:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  So... McCain comes closer? n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  I beleive Sen. McCain has won elections (0+ / 0-)

          Clark has never won an election.

          Also, McCain was never a general.  

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:02:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Mccain only won 1 contested election (0+ / 0-)

            I think...his first, when he carpetbagged over to Arizona with his new beer baroness wife and ran for the House.  He buddied up to Udall and Barry Goldwater and practically made out with them and talked about being a POW which we all know is totally rare and he won.  From then on, it's been cake for him.

            •  Not true, he won 6 not 1 contested elections (0+ / 0-)

              Acording to Wikipedia

              Arizona's 1st congressional district, 1982
              John McCain (R) - 54,729 (50.84%)
              William E. Hegerty (D) - 48,070 (44.65%)
              Richard K. Dodge (L) - 4,850 (4.51%)

              Arizona's 1st congressional district, 1984
              John McCain (R) - 162,418 (78%)
              Harry W. Braun (D) - 45,609 (22%)

              Arizona U.S. Senate, 1986
              John McCain (R) – 521,850 (60%)
              Richard Kimball (D) – 340,965 (40%)

              Republican Arizona U.S. Senate, 1992
              John McCain (R) – 771,395 (56%)
              Claire Sargent (D) – 436,321 (32%)
              Evan Mecham (I) - 145,361 (11%)
              Kiana Delamare (L) - 22,613 (2%)
              Ed Finkelstein (New Alliance) - 6,335 (<1%)</p>

              Republican Arizona U.S. Senate , 1998
              John McCain (R) – 696,577 (69%)
              Ed Ranger (D) – 275,224 (27%)
              John C. Zajac (L) - 23,004 (2%)
              Bob Park (Reform) - 18,288 (2%)

              Arizona U.S. Senate, 2004
              John McCain (R) – 1,505,372 (77%)
              Stuart Starky (D) – 404,507 (21%)
              Ernest Hancock (L) - 51,798 (3%)

              The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

              by nextstep on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:34:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Clark would be a good counter to McSame (5+ / 0-)

      as a decorated general.  Plus it goes without saying that he is incredibly intelligent - Rhodes Scholar at Oxford, valedictorian at West Point.  He would definitely compliment Obama's style and pull over some left-leaning republicans & independents.

  •  I'm still pulling (5+ / 0-)

    for Al Gore

    John McCain - Like W. Only Older.

    Funny McCain Pics archive updated regularly

    by InsultComicDog on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:25:49 PM PDT

    •  I do not think Al wants the job, I really don't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      He was VP for 8 years.

      Are there term limits for VPs or only Presidents?

      I never thought of that until now.  I guess AL is eligible or someone would have mentioned it.

      I really do not think Gore wants the VP slot. He goes on these programs and states firmly he does want a cabinet position..maybe VP is different..don't know. But it would be major shock if he picks Gore.

      The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

      by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:33:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •   I'm in the tank for Sebelius, but at this point (5+ / 0-)

    choosing Biden might be the safest choice. He made a valiant effort to derail the administration before the Iraq War resolution, and I give him full credit for that.

    •  and I must sa he can attack..and gets sound bytes (0+ / 0-)

      Noun, verb, 9-11 is still being talked about.

      And the Sunday shows love him.

      The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

      by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:34:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama/Kerry. (3+ / 0-)

    You really want us to lose.

    Digg this:

    by robertacker13 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:25:53 PM PDT

  •  Lebowski. (8+ / 0-)

    Not a damned one of you has even suggested B. Lebowski.


  •  Thanks kos (4+ / 0-)

    Thanks for pointing out that judgment matters.  Everybody here seems to be giving Biden a big fat pass on his clear lack of judgment on many issues important to progressives.  The only thing he has going for his is "safe choice" i.e. a non-offensive white guy to put on the ticket.  Little else to recommend him.

  •  I'm just putting this out there (5+ / 0-)

    Gore is still the best choice, by far.


    •  Agreed but I wonder if Gore wants it because (0+ / 0-)

      He has been there, done that, and he did not get to be President. It was stolen from him. This should be the end of Gore's term in office as President.

      Gore is so involved with enviromental causes and global climate change; he may be happy there.

      Gore is a great choice but perhaps Al does not want the job.

      The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

      by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:39:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama/Not Bayh '08! n/t (14+ / 0-)

    Denny Crane: But if he supports a law, and then agrees to let it lapse … then that would make him …

    Shirley Schmidt: A Democrat.

    by Jyrinx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26:16 PM PDT

  •  Obama has to soothe voters (6+ / 0-)

    I don't think Sebelius would do that.

    John McCain: Vowing to connect real leaders with real bowels

    by chicago minx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26:22 PM PDT

    •  She won't (5+ / 0-)

      I really don't get why people think having Sebelius as the VP will assuage bitter Hillary voters.  Instead they will be riled up and respond with why pick a woman less qualified (in their minds) when Hillary is available?  It will seem like cruel punishment to them. I have a bunch of Hillary voters in my family and every single woman among them said they would stay home if Sebelius is on the ticket while Hillary is dissed.  I have them at least committed to going to the polls for Obama-Biden, or Obama-Bayh, or Obama-Kaine etc etc.  I haven't been able to crack the automatic horror they emote when any other woman other than Hillary is suggested.

      Put the gender aspect aside and there's no guarantee Sebelius can help in Kansas (which we won't carry)or Ohio (which will be close).  So I don't see the pragmatic benefit of Sebelius either.

      Finally -- it is 2008. The national nightmare is almost over.

      by Delilah on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:48:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Democrats who win Republican states are strong (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:52:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  late night blogging indeed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
  •  All the picks suck (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MadEye, Hillbilly Dem, deepeco, dkosdan

    Seriously, HRC might be the best we can do (barring Gore coming down from heaven to save our worthless souls).

    Why is our bench so terrible again? :(

  •  what about Plagiarism? (0+ / 0-)

    didn't that jettison his pres. bid back in the 80s?

    Republicans are not a national party anymore.

    by jalapeno on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26:32 PM PDT

  •  Not to say that Biden is a typical politician but (13+ / 0-)

    I figure he'd sell the credit card industry down the river once he was our VP. He is a real intelligent and "articulate" guy, and has a lot of credibility with the DC insiders. People who don't follow politics that closely, and want to vote Democratic, will be reassured by him. He wasn't my first choice but he just might work out OK for us.

    "though we rush ahead to save our time- we are only what we feel" Neil Young- 1968

    by blindyone on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26:33 PM PDT

  •  I hope he picks Sebelius (9+ / 0-)

    I really hope he picks her.  I think she would complement him best. She is a blue governor of a red state and has done a good job.  If it is Bayh, I will cry. Really.

    I am hoping all this floating of names is to mask a really exciting pick like Sebelius or Richardson, who I also like.  I just can't see him with Biden. Biden seems like he should be the Prez.  

  •  I can't agree (16+ / 0-)

    Biden would be a good choice, for the simple reason that he'd be a great attack dog.  Now that he's got the chops for.

    All aboard the O train!

    by xyz on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26:45 PM PDT

  •  Come on, Obama/Sebelius! (14+ / 0-)

    Wait! I actually like Biden too... >_>

    Obama/Bidelius 08!

    John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign.

    by Namtrix on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:26:49 PM PDT

  •  I'd be okay with Biden (19+ / 0-)

    for one reason only: he'd destroy McCain's guy in a debate, especially Romney.

  •  He cant pick sebelius (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Delilah, chicago minx, icelady

    Sebelius will cause too much of uproar inside the party , wther you like it or not.

    Also , this race is very close , so the closer the race is , the less likely Obama's VP pick will be risky.

    Again , whether you like it or not , Sebelius is a risky pick..She is.

    The Clinton are still a big part of the party...So big that Obama had no choice but to let them headline 2 different night.

    How in the world can Obama turned around and pick a lesser known woman in which some may argue is less inexperienced the Hillary.

    It is true that many on the netroot thinks Sebelius is much more qualified then Hillary , but outside of the netroot , i would bet my house that everyone would disagree that Sebelius is much more qualified then Hillary.

    This move(Sebelius as VP) would be seen as Obama slapping the clinton in their face , and can Obama really afford to take such a risk. with this race tightening?

    •  i agree to the extent (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      that clinton women will see it as a slap in the face. but obama had considered sebilius long before the primaries went into pennsylvania, and he is really great friends with sebilius. so it's sad that to see another women who is well qualified (and more experienced in terms of executive governance, mind you, than hillary) is being hated on for that reason. but that's how things work, so im against sebelius, simply for the purpose of alleviating angry hillary cult voters.

      Digg this:

      by robertacker13 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:31:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sebelius is not more qualified the hillary (0+ / 0-)

        Im sorry , but i just get irritated when i hear people claiming she's as qualified as Hillary.

        Believe it or not , Hillary was much more then a conventional first lady...She did much more then stay in the background...So she does have strong knowledge of the white house system etc etc.

        Sebelius does not have that.

        What hurts sebelius the most is her timidity...She's just not ready for the job....She's not even trying to get herself into TV....My guess is it's her personal decision.

        While Bayh , Biden and Kaine are getting themselves on TV , Sbeleius seems to be afraid to get criticed.

        •  They're both qualified (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Seneca Doane, dkosdan

          Hillary's more qualified in terms of foreign policy, but senators dont have executive experience. period.

          Sebilius was one of the top governors in the country, and has executive experience.

          That's just a fact.  Both are great leaders, but just because one has more name recognition does not diminish the other's accomplishments.

          Digg this:

          by robertacker13 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:43:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And being a total media hog (0+ / 0-)

          like Mitt Romney, for example, is not a qualification as you suggest, for becoming president. Just because she has a boring personality does not mean she's not qualified. If i remember, we've had plenty of boring vice presidents in office.

          By the way, Biden has not been "getting himself on TV". They are asked by the Obama campaign to be a surrogate on a TV show. It's not something they go out and do without the campaign's permission.

          But obviously, Sebelius is not under consideration, even though Obama is best friends with her, because Kansas is not a state he can take considering its been a republican stronghold for decades...whereas Indiana and Virginia may turn blue this election, which is why Bayh and Kaine are being tested in primetime.

          Digg this:

          by robertacker13 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:47:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, and unlike Hillary (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          askew, Alohilani, robertacker13

          her negatives aren't in the freaking stratosphere!

          John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

          by Seneca Doane on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:11:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  She isnt as qualified as HRC (0+ / 0-)

          I say that as a life-long Democrat, a 12 yr Democratic Kansan and a born-raised upstate NYer.

          Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

          by dcrolg on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:52:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah Blue, I think you are spot on. However (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Obama might surprise us all...

    •  How it will be seen (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      would depend on how Hillary reacted to it.  I can imagine Obama asking Hillary in advance what her reaction would be and what she thought her supporters would do about it.  Would Hillary, the question being put to her bluntly, really stomp out the chances of the first woman becoming VP?  I don't believe it.  And if she then came on board, I believe that she would be on board enough to make things work.

      John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:36:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Can you imagine her reaction (0+ / 0-)

        I strongly believe she would not hide her feeling.

        I believe this is the one thing that would really anger her beyond believe.

        Hillay believe she's gone through so much and fought this primary on behalf of all women , to only be leapfrogged by a woman who is lesser known and stayed on the sideline while she was taking all the hits.

        I strongly believe she would give Obama a piece of her mind and this would be a very chilly phone call.

        I wouldnt put it pass the clinton to tell Obama to fuck off if he picks Sebelius...That's how much of a disrespect they'd see it as.

    •  Sound like no Woman can become President (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Until Hillary wins it first or dies.

      I don't think so.  

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:57:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  All Hillary has to do is say to Obama first (0+ / 0-)

      and then neo-Cnn, Faux News and the rest of the meida, "I have no problem if Katherine Sebelius is the VP."

      That would be big of her if she did so, but I think she won't at all.

      The Low Road Express: So low, an ant would be too big for it.

      by sluggahjells on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:48:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  She will never do that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Because she does have a problem Obama putting another woman on the ticket.

        You are technicaly right...Hillary knows Obama really likes Sebelius and she has to know that Obama may be westling with the fact that if she pick Sebelius , he will have to answer critics who says Hillary is the only woman at this time who deserve the slot.

        If Hillary wanted to bell him out , she'd say exactly what you wrote and put a stamp of approval on sebelius.

        In my opinion , i dont think Hillary would be able to deal with another woman leap frogging her just like that.

        She feels she's gone through all the trouble and fought hard and took a lot of hit , and whether you agree with her or not , she feels no other woman deserve this has much as her.

        I seriously think she'd take a ball and go home...That's how pissed she'd be...The Clintons would regard that as a huge disrespect and Obama just can not afford to find out how they will behave under such act...I think they would let their displeasure go public and this would hurt party unity.

        Sebelius is not a strong enough candidate to take such a huge gamble

        •  you mean personality instead of candidate (0+ / 0-)

          This highlights though that Hillary hasn't gone all the way with helping Obama as best as she can.

          However, what if Hillary said this in public. There is the possibility that even if she says this, people will still believe that this is a subiminal message telling all her supporters to "not support Sebelius" or have them fired up because of it. Whether those supporters out there still are kind of large or 25 like that PUMA raly was or whatever, it is what it is.

          If she told this to Obama in private, and Obama choose her, and this story leaks out later that this happened in private, then I will almost forgive Hillary for her "evil, lying. pandering side" in the primary. And see the good side that made her our junior senator in our state.

          The Low Road Express: So low, an ant would be too big for it.

          by sluggahjells on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:16:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  keep the brand, pick Sebelius (5+ / 0-)

    Bayh and Kaine are DLC. Biden voted for the war.

    •  And Topeka ain't Washington, so enjoy hubris (0+ / 0-)

      and its fruits of inexperience.

      Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -- Mark Twain.

      by dcrolg on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:54:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I like Sebelius, but (0+ / 0-)

      Do we get the attack dog w/ the Kansas governor?  Is she aggressive enough?  Obama isn't comfortable in the role so we need a veep that almost loves quick verbal sparring.

      "Noun, verb, 9-11" -- is effing brilliant.  It's sound-bitey, and a core truth.  Obama is not sound-bitey enough.  It's one of the reasons people say they "don't know him".  His ideas are nuanced and complex b/c the problems we face are difficult, but people need something they can hold onto.  Maybe a veep who is used to talking like that....

      Hell, what I'm really talking about is adding a new speechwriter or two to his circle.  Someone with copywriting experience.

      Continue with your policy discussions.

  •  No - BO picks McCain for VP -pnwed, Sydney!!! (5+ / 0-)

    That's my predict - it would send Johnny into an apoplyptic aneurystical screamfest, thus deciding the popular...

    Absurdism yes; but tactically brilliant.

    Russ Feingold: cooler than Batman.

    by yojimbo on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:27:17 PM PDT

  •  I'm telling ya'll, the answer's in my sig... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fivefouranonymous, filby

    Obama/Hilton '08 - "Change that's hot!" ... wait a minute: HILlary + clinTON = HILTON! IT'S A PROPHECY/CURSE I TELLZ YA! ;)

    by VT ConQuest on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:27:22 PM PDT

  •  I want Sebelius, too (4+ / 0-)

    I think she will help him fight the infanticide smear that is coming his way. Plus, I think she is someone woman will get really excited about once Hillary Clinton is given her moment in the sun at the convention.

  •  Change is not a policy (4+ / 0-)

    The first black president is change enough for this country right now.

    Obama has made it clear that he will select someone who can help him govern. Perhaps that governance will involve changing the system as it currently exists. Let's hope, but the pick will continue to show that Obama is a good manager, just as his entire campaign has demonstrated.

  •  I like biden over many of the others (9+ / 0-)

    simply because he's more liberal and we don't have to annoint him president in 8 years since he will be too old

    •  Yeah, that, too. n/t (0+ / 0-)

      "though we rush ahead to save our time- we are only what we feel" Neil Young- 1968

      by blindyone on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:29:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Although, look how well thats working out for (0+ / 0-)

      the Republicans.

      As for him being liberal, I don't consider him liberal when it comes to space policy

      •  Can you expand on this? (0+ / 0-)

        Or is there a diary I can read re:Biden and space policy?  I am uninformed on this issue.

        •  He hasn't spoken much (0+ / 0-)

          so I may end up being wrong, I will admit, but it has me quite concerned.  His 2 main statements on this are as follows


          The revolution in transportation will also affect foreign policy in the years to come. I don't mean commercial space travel or the supersonic transport. There are limits to how fast or far we need to travel, especially when teleconferencing lets us be 'face to face' without being 'in person

           Click here to see the full speech.

          Mind you, this came in 07, 3 years after SS1 won the X Prize, and 5 people had paid to go to the ISS.  

          1.  This doesn't quite have the public record I'd like, but I suspect its probably accurate

          AE"What is your vision for America's space program?"
          JB - "I like the robotic programs"
          AE - "How about the manned missions, with clear leadership we could"
          JB - "With clear leadership we can do anything, good luck"

          Click here to read more about this one.  That "I like the robotic programs", and the response he gave when specifically asked about manned programs, makes me quite nervous, as someone who doesn't see the value in manned spaceflight.  With Obama, I wasn't totally suprised, since he was quite new, but Biden has a history, and so I am sure he has been exposed to a lot of info about manned spaceflight.  

  •  Biden would remove any percieved risks (9+ / 0-)

    that some see voting for Obama...fundamentally, most people are uncomfortable with "TOO much" change.

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be draped in the flag and carrying the cross."- Sinclair Lewis

    by IamtheReason on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:28:36 PM PDT

  •  Obama wants Biden (12+ / 0-)

    not only because of foreign policy, but because he trusts him and feels comfortable around him.

    Digg this:

    by robertacker13 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:28:41 PM PDT

  •  I'm disappointed in Gore. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    He sees how close it is, yet as far as we can tell hasn't offered himself up.

    With the country on the edge like this, I think it's pretty selfish not to put the good of the entire world over whatever personal agenda you may have for your own life.

    •  It's not up to Gore to put himself up (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      political girl, robertacker13

      but if he is called on by Obama, I think that changes the picture.

      John McCain - Like W. Only Older.

      Funny McCain Pics archive updated regularly

      by InsultComicDog on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:31:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Gore is selfish because he doesn't (6+ / 0-)

      "offer himself up" for a job he already held for 8 years?

      John McCain: Vowing to connect real leaders with real bowels

      by chicago minx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:31:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Somewhat... with how important (0+ / 0-)

        this time in history is.

        Everyone has the right to be selfish. I'm just not happy about his decision.

        •  Then why are you home blogging? (0+ / 0-)

          You know how important this time in history is - why aren't you walking precincts now?  Why aren't you asking of yourself the same thing you are asking of someone you haven't met?

          Accountability has a pretty big reach, ya' know...

          Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? - Mary Oliver, "The Summer Day"

          by Rico on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:58:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If Gore were VP (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, craigf

          then he have to be fighting the Repub smear machine every time he tried to do his climate stuff . . . or anything . . . and talk about celebrity . . . Rove would have a field day with the two celebs . . . Gore being an Oscar winner and that other prize . . .

          I think Gore feels like what he's doing is just as important as being VP . . . after all, if the climate doesn't work for our species, there will definitely be no more elections.

          "If religion is the opiate of the masses, then fundamentalism is the amphetamine." Miz Vittitow

          by MillieNeon on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:30:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gore is more effective where he is (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Babsnc, dkosdan, mdmslle

            He has just as much, if not more, power to affect the issues he's really passionate about now than if he were VP.  Now, he can proselytize to other countries without fear of the criticism that the US government is trying to be pushy about climate change (oh, how I wish THAT were our problem!).

            No, Gore would be more of a distraction than a benefit on the ticket.  Appoint him to a senior cabinet position, or Sec. of the Interior, if you want him directly involved in decision-making.

            I still think Biden's a good choice.  I'd also like to see Chuck Schumer considered, but an old Jew from New York isn't what the ticket needs...unfortunately, if Obama is going to attract any of the disaffected NASCAR crowd, he's going to have to have a white guy beside him.  And to counter criticisms of age/experience, an older white guy would help a fair bit.

    •  Gore has a unique role to play (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pd, wishingwell

      he is uniquely equipped to be a citizen activist raising awareness of climate change among ordinary citizens and world leaders, and a green businessman urging the business community to switch to environmentally friendly technologies.

      There are plenty of politicians who would make a decent VP for Obama. But only Gore has the knowledge, leadership skill, credibility, and uniquely high profile to do what he's doing.

      The only position that might possibly have enough influence to compensate for the loss of freedom he would suffer by reentering politics is the presidency. And he decided not to seek it this time.

      Obama can pick a regular politician to fill the VP. Gore has other work to do.

      •  He could also more or less secure the win (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell, Skid, Firecrawler09

        for Obama.

        Put that on the scale with "citizen activist" and I'm not sure the latter measures up.

        Maybe, but I personally don't feel that way right now.

        So I'm disappointed.

        Though I 100% understand what you're saying, and even probably agreed with it when I was feeling more confident.

        I just feel the real America creeping back on my shoulders, and I'm worried we aren't a decent enough society to see McCain for what he is. Maybe that's from seeing the media spin the last few days... but I'm also now remembering how easily that spin can reprogram this nation, and how quickly. That's just what Americans have become... programmable.

        And I'm worried for the first time in a long time... because I realize I don't have faith in my fellow American... none at all.

        •  Its said he's more effective where he is, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Babsnc, limpidglass

          a citizen activist on the global scene rather than limited to WH rules. With a Democratic win, Gore will definitely have the ear of the WH occupants.

          "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

          by Skid on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:31:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, but he's so above it all (0+ / 0-)

        It does bug me he hasn't been out there more in support of Obama. How many public appearances, fund-raisers, or anything has Gore done? One?

    •  Gore's selfish moment was 4 years ago, actually (0+ / 0-)

      Now, eh.

      (-4.73,-5.05) - if [TM] covered Einstiens paper on relatively... the title would have been, "Einstein calls Newton a Bitch! Oh Snap!" -kingfishstew

      by amnesiaproletariat on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:14:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  there've been VPs that were picked to cover (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skid, Seneca Doane, dkosdan

    the presidential candidate's flaws before. Namely, Al Gore in 1992. He was picked, as Clinton himself said, to provide strength on foreign policy and the environment, areas where Bill Clinton lacked expertise. Gore's extensive Washington experience (8 years in the House, 8 in the Senate) was yet another asset. And (as Clinton did not say) Gore's straight-arrow private life served to contrast with Clinton's licentiousness.

    And it worked, despite going against the rule that a VP candidate should be from a different geographic region than the presidential candidate.

  •  I still think it's Warner (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, MJB, dkosdan

    He's going to Virginia tomorrow (Wednesday) and for good reason. The keynote offer was a bait and switch. He needs Va and Kaine can't guarantee the state. Warner can.

    And if McCain takes Portman (which I think he will), Warner will so outshine him.

    •  From your keyboard to... (nm) (0+ / 0-)


      So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.

      by MJB on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:42:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  no way. (0+ / 0-)

      Warner is much more needed in the Senate.  There is absolutely no way he will give up his Senate election this time around.  This will be the first time in "forever" that the Dems will hold both Senate seats by election.  It might be nice, but there is no way it will happen.

      Political will is a renewable resource --Al Gore, 2005

      by icelady on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:45:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A Dem replacement would win (0+ / 0-)

        With Obama/Warner at the top of the ticket, any Dem replacement would win.

        •  th guy before Gilmore could run (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          but I think Warner is going for 2016. He'd be a governor, 2 term swing state senator, moderate, business credentials... whew.

          historically, VP's dont ascend, so...  but I hope Warner takes it. That'd be nice.

          (-4.73,-5.05) - if [TM] covered Einstiens paper on relatively... the title would have been, "Einstein calls Newton a Bitch! Oh Snap!" -kingfishstew

          by amnesiaproletariat on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:16:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you mean Wilder? (0+ / 0-)

            He is done with National politics.  He is 'happily' serving as Mayor of Richmond.  Not going to happen.

            Balisles - He is happily making $$ as a lawyer now.  He passed his chance for running for US Senate years ago.

            Robb -  enough said.

            Political will is a renewable resource --Al Gore, 2005

            by icelady on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:16:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  and what realistic Va Dem 'replacement' (0+ / 0-)

          would you suggest?

          Before Webb, there was not a viable Dem for Senate.  I understand that Va has FINALLY had decent candidates for Senate and everyone is feeling giddy about having Webb and now Mark Warner v. Gilmore, with Warner ready to take the lead, but other than Kaine himself who is really ready to fill the slot?

          Mark Warner is it.  Kaine is Gov thanks to Warner, and still a(even if it is slim) VP possibility.

          Va is not stupid.  The voters will not deal with that much 'turnover' in such a short time.

          Political will is a renewable resource --Al Gore, 2005

          by icelady on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:59:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Under VA election law Warner could run for VP (0+ / 0-)

        and Senate at the same time.  If Obama wins, Warner goes to dc as VP and if not he goes to dc as senator.

        •  but that is really not the point (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, dkosdan

          Warner may be an option but there is no way Warner will play the voters or the 'odds' that way.

          Warner is running for the seat that has been held by John Warner forever and a day.  He knows very well that Va voters will not tolerate that kind of game-play.

          Just because the 'rules' may allow for something to be done doesn't mean he is willing to play that kind of politics.  It is just way against his 'grain.'

          It won't happen.

          Political will is a renewable resource --Al Gore, 2005

          by icelady on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:08:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It would put his Senate victory... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, dkosdan

 serious jeopardy.  Right now he looks like a sure thing, but if VA voters aren't sure what they might actually be getting, they may feel uncomfortable casting a vote for someone who may well not ever serve in the job he's been elected to.

          Vote Warner for VA Senate - if he wins, there's a chance he may actually be your Senator?!?

          Not exactly a strong campaign pitch.

    •  Only thing is Warner is running for Senate and (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      trouncing his opponent. Who would run for that Senate seat if Warner becomes VP Pick?

      The one thing we know about the McCain that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

      by wishingwell on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:51:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh good God - No (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:


    "Proud to proclaim: I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal"

    by sara seattle on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:29:38 PM PDT

  •  I like Biden (13+ / 0-)

    and he was one of the few Senators trying to do the right thing on the Iraq War Resolution, even if he misunderestimated Bush in the end. He's admitted to that mistake. But he's never been a part of the DLC, he's stayed out of Washington (commuting back to Wilmington almost every night to be with his family), and he's exactly the person we want behind the scenes in Europe over the next 8 years trying to make things right.

    As for MBNA, it's not Biden's fault that Harry and Nancy lost the Bankruptcy battle. It's not like he co-sponsored the bill, and it's not like he was doing anything other than voting for his state. Where were the other 98 senators?

  •  HEY Delaware is.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, NotGeorgeWill, filby

    more than just Credit Card Country. We're also home of tax-free shopping and nicknamed the small wonder....that's all.

  •  Yeah, I'm just assuming the worst (0+ / 0-)

    it's worked for me as an Oakland Raiders fan, so: 4 wins, 12 losses, Biden, Bayh, whatever.

    "strong infrastructure and fair play..."

    by hhex65 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:30:36 PM PDT

  •  What exactly does Daschle bring to the table? (8+ / 0-)

    He couldn't even win reelection last time around.

  •  Winning is more important to me. (7+ / 0-)

    Kaine and Sebelius aren't going to cut it.

    Even though Bayh is conservative, he isn't going to instill any confidence either.

    That's just America. It's the reality of our sad country... a country where Obama is still only up by 5%.



    Even Kerry.

    These are solid figures who instill confidence in the people who might vote Democrat.

  •  Funny, I assume the same thing. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Skid

    I'm already assuming disappointment on Obama's pick

    I'm Ron Shepston and I'm not done yet. There's much left to accomplish.

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:31:07 PM PDT

  •  AMEN kos, AMEN.... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    darrelplant, Skid, Prognosticator, Junah


    and none of the establishment, in Washington, D.C. for evah crowd, will do....

    I am set to be disappointed too, spoke to a friend today that said, "Obama's pick will tell a lot about him" and I agree.

    Lastly, my husband says all these folks floating around on TV are head fakes, he believes it will be a shock and said Clark.

    We will see.

  •  Disagree (14+ / 0-)

    As I just commented on another diary:

    Experienced, grey-haired, male, white senator slamming another experienced, grey-haired, male, white senator I think would be more palatable to low-information white voters than having Hillary do it. I mean, isn't that what Barack needs since he is younger, less-experienced, and black?  

    I can easily imagine Biden saying: "That's bullshit.  Look. I know McCain.  We've been in the Senate a long time together.  And that's bullshit."  Seriously, nothing against Clinton, but I can just see Biden being a better attack dog at least in the eyes of mainstream whites.  

    Barack is already the change candidate.  What he needs is someone capable of slamming "holy POW" McCain that won't seem unseemly to white voters. So, while I also have problems with Biden's record, I think he's exactly what Obama needs at this point.

    THAT'S not change we can believe in, he he he ... creepy forced smile.

    by Anak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:31:22 PM PDT

  •  I think I am one of many many that really (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skid, Prognosticator

    don't know who they would prefer as VP this time around.  I have a hard time getting up any enthusiasm for any of the "top" picks that have been mentioned.

    Seems that they all have more negatives than positives, so far.  I am certainly not enamored totally with Clark but at least he offers to fill bigger 'hole' than the rest.

    I keep hoping that Obama will pull a rabbit out of his hat that no one has been talking about and we will all be able to give a collective "Ahhhh."

    None of the collective top 3, Bayh, Biden, of Kaine, do anything for me.  They seem to have way more negatives than positives.  

    We shall see.

    Political will is a renewable resource --Al Gore, 2005

    by icelady on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:32:01 PM PDT

  •  Picking a VP who compliments Obama is not (12+ / 0-)

    inherently an attempt at covering up a "flaw". When I play two on two hoops, I don't pick a teammate who can hit from downtown, I've got that covered. I pick a big man who can scrap on the inside and pull down the glass.

    Does that mean that I stick outside and shoot the three? Yep. Does it mean that my "flaw" of lacking rebounding skills is exposed for all to see? Sure, but it doesn't matter.

    Because it also means that we win the game.

    •  Nice analysis coco... (0+ / 0-)

      I agree that Obama doesn't necessarily need to fill a void/"flaw" but choose someone that will be a good 'compliment' that can help complete the bigger picture.

      I still don't see that with any of those that have been talked about being in the mix.  

      Political will is a renewable resource --Al Gore, 2005

      by icelady on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:41:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think kos was saying picking someone because (0+ / 0-)

      they somehow plug up a hole or weakness (perceived or in reality) is always a bad move because it is a defensive move and does nothing to advance the candidate's narrative forward.  I tend to agree, did Bentsen move Dukasis' narrative forward?  How about Lieberman?  or even Edwards.  

      The same is not true of Clinton choosing Gore in '92.  It represented a break from the perceived NE liberal bent of the party and hence reinforced Clinton's narrative of being a new breed of Dems.

      •  Hence choosing Biden just to clean up the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slaney black

        perceived foregin policy weakness for Obama is dumb.  Obama has a narrative --- post-partisanship, get things done for the people rather than winning elections for their own sake, etc., --- that is something the VP pick must reinforce to drive Obama's narrative forward.

        •  I'm no fan of Biden (0+ / 0-)

          Believe me, he would never have entered my top 10 list for reasons too numerous to list, however, the point remains that Obama will choose his running mate based on who will compliment his ability to govern and to implement (what I hope will be) a progressive agenda which will benefit "the people" at whom his narrative is directed.

        •  its not foreign policy creds hes lacking (0+ / 0-)

          per se.

          Obama's big "hole" with undecideds is they question his experience and ability to carry out what is, admittedly, a very complex job.

          An older, experienced, white male like Biden reassures the fence sitters.

          On the contrary, as much as I love the idea of Clark, i think he, more than Biden, looks like a "foreign policy" cover.

          Give Em Hell!! OBAMA 08

          by mdmslle on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:15:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  So you let your buddy.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      throw the elbows to crack open the opponents face while you get the glory shooting 3's.
      They used me in that capacity when I played rugby in high school in England. Lots of blood on my hands but we won a lot of games too. :)

      •  You do a great service for us over glorified (0+ / 0-)

        types. Let the bloody elbows fly, if it gets our guy in the WH, integrity in tact of course. And from what I've seen he's quite the glorious 3 point shooter as well.

  •  Oldsters (7+ / 0-)

    Compared with Kerry and Gore, Obama equals or over-performs among every demographic except one: the 65+ age group.

    I believe this factor, demographics, not "delivers state X" or "shores up the ticket on issue Y" is guiding the campaign's Veep choice; and of those left standing, Biden is a good, comforting pick for the Oldsters.

    Its going to be Biden, and his appeal to older voters is the reason.

    The goal is not to bring your adversaries to their knees but to their senses. -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by kingubu on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:33:08 PM PDT

    •  What evidence is there of this appeal? (0+ / 0-)

      Is there some evidence of this supposed appeal to boomers?  Biden got a whole 2 delegates in 1988 and 1% of the Iowa caucus in 2008.  They do have old people in Iowa, I assume.  

      •  Oldsters, surely, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        will find it much more appropriate seeing an older, experienced white guy like Biden bashing holy McCain than some youngster like Bayh or a woman like Sibelius, someone I only heard of this year.  You don't think so?

        THAT'S not change we can believe in, he he he ... creepy forced smile.

        by Anak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:44:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Evidence? (0+ / 0-)

          That sounds like speculation.  They guy has already submitted himself for consideration and nobody voted for him.  That's evidence.

          •  I'm not saying (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            he's gonna bring in a state or whatever.  I mean, did Cheney have a great record in getting votes before 2000?  And yet he's been elected twice by America--well, once.

            So, I disagree.  I don't think it is important at this point whether or not Biden has gotten a lot of votes. I'm saying that Barack needs someone who can attack McCain mercilessly while at the same time not offending older or low-info white folk.

            THAT'S not change we can believe in, he he he ... creepy forced smile.

            by Anak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:52:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes and someone who makes people (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dkosdan, Anak

              feel comfortable.

              I'm convinced that people WANT to vote for Obama and throw the rethugs out. They are legitimately worried that his "short" career is not enough to allow him to handle the job of President. We don't have forever to convince people here. Biden could run the country if need be and he represents experience.

              I mean think of it this way: if people are actually considering McCain at all its because they are figuring McCain is more experienced and stable. Even though his policies suck, they consider him. If we add someone with that same perception of experience, we win handily. Voters will NOT listen to scandals about Biden and more than they are listening to McCain's policies. They just want to feel like everything would be OK.

              Give Em Hell!! OBAMA 08

              by mdmslle on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:21:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Not Boomers, 65+ (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Only the leading edge of the Boomer cohort is 65 or older.

        The goal is not to bring your adversaries to their knees but to their senses. -- Mahatma Gandhi

        by kingubu on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:56:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Hmmmm -- then how about Robert Byrd? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slaney black

      I'm ambivalent about Byrd, but I'd love that just for the entertainment value.

      John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:57:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He appeals to me not because he is old (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      although in some circles I could be an oldster.  He appeals to me because I would like Obama to have a seasoned foreign policy expert at his side.  Someone who is unafraid to take on the Republican'ts & literally someone who can take McCone's perceived strengths & turn them into weaknesses.

      McLiar is a hothead, he's losing his memory and the only thing that matters to him is winning his wars.  And if there isn't one in front of him, he'll go out & find one.  Biden can show this up to be the weakness of McCain; not his strength.

    •  Clark's hair is acceptably gray. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bethcf4p, mdmslle

      And "oldsters" of WWII-era KNOW what NATO is all about.

      The more I consider it, the better Clark "gets"...

  •  I too fear a disappointment for VP pick (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I just wish the suspense would come to an end.

    It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama

    by Lefty Coaster on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:33:39 PM PDT

  •  Markos, (14+ / 0-)

    You are part of the machine that is dedicated to having Democrats lose. Sorry to say it, but you are.

    You're not willing to take steps rather than sprint. It's either all or nothing with you.

    Your decision to hold out your money is ridiculous. You'd rather have a Republican than a Democrat over a few ideological differences.

    Politics is about compromise. If you really wanted change, you'd understand that compromise is the only way to pave the path to true progressive change. Once they see how it works (and it does work), they will come.

    But shooting yourself in the foot because you don't get your way every 4 years is the reason why GWB has been in office for 8.

    There's something very wrong here... don't you understand that I'm made of steel?

    by AgentONeal on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:34:05 PM PDT

  •  I get the feeling, Kos is setting himself up (8+ / 0-)

    to be "right" later.

    If he keeps pushing Progressive values over anything else, he's always got a good argument later.

    For him to settle would probably hurt his credibility.

    I even think he's probably not wrong in doing so.

    But this is one time when I don't agree with Kos... I feel like I have a better pulse on what average Americans want to see in the VP candidate than Kos does...

    and it's not a no-name newbie.

    Sadly, people are still on the verge... and it's going to take some name recognition and a sense of strength and stability to win over the people we still need to win over.

    I think someone with some years on them is an important part of that equation as well.




    All good picks.

    •  Reed. (0+ / 0-)

      Simpatico with Obama on the issues.  Against the war.  West Point grad.  Fits like a glove with the "No Drama Obama" mantra.

      Only downside I see is that he is a poor fit for the attack dog role.  That's where someone like Biden has the edge.  Would be nice to have a running mate who will take a bite out of McSame.

      So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.

      by MJB on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:45:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Biden overcomes objections.... (8+ / 0-)

      for some demographic groups, especially the white male vote.  He's an old hand, smart, and able to effectively carry Obama's water in the debate.

      Biden also would happen to be a decent president if the unthinkable ever happened.  He's someone who would reassure some uncertain voters who feel queezy about Obama that it's OK to trust his judgment and temperment.  

      Biden is the best of the final threesome, that's for sure.

  •  Bayh, Kaine, and Biden are the white guys that (0+ / 0-)

    some folks are looking for in Obama's administration. (After all some people fear brown people will take over once he's president)

    People say VP choices don't make a difference but I think they do. I was concerned that Gore was pandering to the right and when he picked Lieberman it just confirmed what I feared. I was soooo angry I almost voted for Nader.

    He needs to pick someone who believes in his policies. If we start with the Iraq War that leaves these guys out.

    •  Not Kaine (nt) (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slaney black

      Obama/Kaine '08 - The Winning Team

      by Tim in CA on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:00:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Forget the war vote (0+ / 0-)

      That was a long time ago under different circumstances and without the benefit of the hindsight you're currently using to judge these people.

      Anybody who dismisses a candidate because of a single vote (or issue, for that matter) is no better than the fundamentalists/whackos they love to criticize on the other side.  Candidates are bundles of ideals and history...consider the whole package before making judgments, please.

      •  I'm not saying pick someone based on one vote (0+ / 0-)

        but he should pick someone who supports his policies. The war vote is ONE place to start. Yeah, we've all kind of forgot there's a war going on-and that's the way the republicans and democrats want it. Not much else can be accomplished unless we resolve this issue.  

        His slogan is change-pick someone who represents change.

  •  Biden actually offered an alternative on Iraq (5+ / 0-)

    Here's a great article about it, and about his foreign policy chops.

    •  Packer (0+ / 0-)

      Biden went ahead and voted for the war, though. Not exactly a smart foreign policy move.

      Typically, rather than make the case that the administration's justifications for the war were complete bullshit, Biden pretended that there was some rationale and tried to put together some sort of restrictions (not that the administration would likely have paid any attention to those). Then, along with Packer -- another war supporter -- they try to paint over their initial support by blaming the people who called it right.

  •  Phooey on Senator Gasbag (4+ / 0-)

    He's a supporter of the Iraq Blank Check Resolution, a leading cheerleader for the "Patriot" Act, a stalwart in the failed War On Drugs(tm), and he'd made a dog's breakfast out of the Alito confirmation hearings.

    If Barack Obama wants to "turn the page," Biden is the equivalent of going back to Page 1, "How to Lose," by the D.C. Democrats.

    No sale.

    John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:35:38 PM PDT

  •  kos doesn't get change (2+ / 0-)

    No democrat can undercut Obama's message of "change"

    because the change that people want is not some change from an amorphous and generic "Washington" but a change from the specific republican policies of the last 8 years.

    Krugman's column yesterday was pitch perfect -- we need to change the direction we've been heading in for the last 8 years, and return to the high-job growth policies of the 90s, when the democrats were in charge.  

  •  My biggest problem with Biden on Iraq (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    darrelplant, Skid, imabluemerkin, Junah, IQof20

    Even as late as 2006, he still thought of Iraq as US property, wanting to divide the country up as be saw fit.

    Now, if the Iraqis had come up with the plan, then that's fine, but it's not up to us, and it can't even be, or have been, or have been perceived as, driven by the US.

    I'll still futily hold out hope for the best. :D

    GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, thanks very much for the question and the comments. I...I have reservations about the partition approach in Iraq. I’ll tell you why.

    In the Balkans first of all, we started with a rapid military offensive...I shouldn’t say "we"...the Serbs and the Bosnians fought a rapid military offensive in the summer of ’92 that overran, with the Bosnian Serb army, much of Bosnia and with some amazing miracles, the front more or less stabilized and so in the 1994 period Ambassador Charles Redman led an effort to put together a peace plan that was based on a 51/49 division of the country and basically that confirmed the status quo.

    And so the idea was just to stop the fighting along the current lines because they figured that neither side was going to give in on what it rightly claimed when we went forward in ’95 with our plan. We basically took up where the Redman plan left off.

    I think that’s different than where we are today in the Balkans and um, it may well be, when all is said and done, there are different political entities in some kind of a federated structure, very loosely controlled, but as an American, I wouldn’t want to be proposing it. It might emerge out of a dialogue that I described to the gentleman from the Voice of America, but it’s got to be the Iraqis’ idea, not ours.

    I don’t think a gimmick solves the problem.

    I think, if you look at the history of partitions, they tend to be accompanied by intense fighting, bitter feelings afterwards, and longstanding problems such as between India and Pakistan that persist to this day, in some respects as a result of the partition idea.

    The idea that you can sort of draw a line...I sat with the Bosnian Serbs, Muslims and the Croats after we had initialed the Dayton Agreement and Richard Holbrook had left and come back, he had other business in New York, and I was there with these three guys and we looked at the map and they said ‘you know, General, it’s very good you’ve drawn this line but this line on the ground is three kilometers wide - your pencil mark on this map is three kilometers wide – this is my cousin’s home and his orchard that’s under your needs to be in...’ and so we went through the whole thousand kilometers of this on a pictal map, farm by farm, village by village, road intersection by road intersection, and only with the three people there that did it.

    Could a process like that eventually emerge, could the United States be a sort of arbiter of this?

    Certainly we could, but is it a gimmick that if the United States goes and proposes it, the people on the ground say ‘ah, oh God, you’ve taken us out from our misery – this is the exact thing we need. Yes. Let’s give the Kurds their piece and you Sunnis, you take Anbar - it’s a beautiful place out there. You can have it, we’ll keep the oil here in central Bosnia, don’t worry, the check’s in the mail, you’ll get it every month, it’ll be deposited in the Iraqi central bank and by the way there will be a federal assembly. Thanks very much. Okay, we’re going to now turn in our arms’ and no.

    It’s’s beyond belief that something like this could work.

    I think, though, that if you took it over there and you listen to what the Iraqis say and it emerges as their idea, if they commit to it, if their principal leaders see it as their solution, then I think that’s fine, I’d have no problem endorsing it – I’d rather see an integral Iraq because I think it’s better for the security of the region, but if that’s the only thing they can accept for their own internal political dynamics, fine. Um, I understand why people are proposing it, um, and I have reservations. I wouldn’t propose it

  •  Oh my. Feel the excitement. (4+ / 0-)

    then pick Kerry. Or even Daschle.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:37:41 PM PDT

  •  I disagree. (7+ / 0-)

    Biden is well respected among moderates and moderate Republicans.  He appeals to people who want an older white guy with experience.  Plus he has good progressive values.  Yes, he has not always voted the way we want but nobody who's been in the Senate that long hasn't got some bad votes.  Usually it's a tradeoff to get something else passed.

    -7.50, -7.74 Republicans = Borrow and Squander

    by GMFORD on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:38:01 PM PDT

  •  I'm with Poblano on this (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    westcott, Skid, deepeco, mdmslle, Junah

    I would not dismiss the possibility of a surprise choice, precisely because the Obama campaign has the discipline to pull it off. Still, I have to agree with Sean that the more build-up there is, the more pressure there is on the Obama campaign to deliver on a big name. Would a head-fake make sense if the Obama campaign were going to deliver us a Chet Edwards or -- bless his political heart -- a Brian Schweitzer -- someone who had all those iPhone-carrying Obama supporters furiously checking Wikipeida after they received Team O's text message?

    Not much. Either they're playing it straight-up -- meaining Biden, Bayh, Kaine, or Sebelius -- or it's some kind of A-lister, someone for whom the elaborate staging of it all doesn't produce an anti-climax. That list is probably limited to Hillary, Gore, Kerry and Colin Powell, though I have real trouble imagining the latter two. Somebody who had officially disqualified themselves -- Mark Warner or Jim Webb -- would presumably also produce a lot of shock value. But I think we need to start discounting some of these second-tier picks that don't have strong brands, like the Jack Reeds and the Chris Dodds.

    Doesn't sound like Obama to build up such momentum only to quell it with a wet blanket like Biden.

    Personally, I'm holding out for Clark. He's an outsider, a southerner, type A military background and probably the most telegenic Dem out there aside from Obama.

    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty ::Thomas Jefferson::

    by Jeremy10036 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:38:38 PM PDT

  •  you're expecting disappointment, kos? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, abrauer

    come on, tell us who you really want!

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.
    78 days until the '08 elections. Let's paint the country BLUE!

    by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:40:06 PM PDT

  •  Obama had better pick someone good (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    darrelplant, Skid

    He seriously fucked us over on FISA, drilling, and other issues. I want to not need such a strong clothespin on my nose when I vote for this dumbass in November.

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is." - George W Bush

    by jfern on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:40:48 PM PDT

  •  If you do a side by side comparison (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, Pd

    you quickly realize that everyone has plusses and minuses. That's what  a friend and I did last weekend, and when we totaled everything up, Biden was the choice that made the most sense.

    I concluded that, even though I seriously heart Sebelius. I'd love to see her on the ticket, and hold out hope that Biden will step down in four years and she'll be the replacement.

  •  Markos, you're way off on this one. (6+ / 0-)

    I love Obama, but there's no way you're going to sell him to swing voters as experienced enough on foreign policy.  You're just not going to do it, so you're going to have to make up for it with someone like Biden.  This election is going to come down to the Midwest, and it's going to be Catholics and the Reagan Democrats that decide it.  Biden plays well with those people.

    Biden is the best choice out there.  You can find one or two bills to nitpick on that anyone has sponsored.  The fact is, Biden is not connected to special interests.  He is also 99th out of 100 Senators when it comes to personal wealth accumulated.  He is humble, but no-nonsense.  He fits right in to the Obama campaign.  He would be a spectacular pick.

  •  lol pro Iraq-war (3+ / 0-)

    which of the possible candidates  wasn't against the Iraq war?

    •  That's the problem: Dems have a pathetic lineup (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I said a year and a half ago that the Dem presidential candidates were pathetic, and the main reason was that most of this sorry-ass bunch were part of the Senate Democrats' Class of 9/11.

      This party needs a thorough housecleaning, and the first place to send in the fumigators is Capitol Hill.

      John McCain's Straight Talk Express runs on fossil fuels.

      by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:54:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We finally have a candidate... (0+ / 0-)

    ...that was against the war, but we're not hearing many attacks on McCain's lack of judgment.  I'm hoping that it's being saved for after the RNC, where they are sure to try and paint Obama as weak on terrorism.  

    Everyone that voted for the war was wrong - period.  He better call McCain out, and in dramatic fashion right after the RNC.  They can, and will, whine about how outrageous the claim is, but they will have zero evidence to back it up.

    •  Who cares... (0+ / 0-)

      ...who was right or wrong about something 6 years ago?  Point is, the surge is working and we're seeing true success in Iraq.  If Senator Obama had his way, the world would still be threatened by an increasingly belligerent and dangerous Saddam Hussein.

      (OK, enough of that Devil's advocate bs)

      The above paragraph IS McCain's argument about the Iraq War.  Proving that he was wrong to vote for it 6 years ago won't do any good, in my opinion.  Most American voters were wrong about the Iraq War, so shouting that they were wrong doesn't appear to be a good electoral strategy, in my opinion.

      "'Shit' is the tofu of cursing" --David Sedaris

      by LiberalVirginian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:51:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is why Hillary won't be VP. (6+ / 0-)

    The rethugs and their 527's would be running this in an endless loop on teevee. We might want to toss it in the memory hole but if she's picked you can damn well bet it will used:

    You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

    by Libertaria on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:44:14 PM PDT

  •  If Biden so good why did he do so bad in primary? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    darrelplant, jwb, slaney black

    Delaware is not big on the electoral map.

    Biden does not represent change

    Obama should aim higher, or strengthen change message

    The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

    by nextstep on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:44:24 PM PDT

    •  He's as good a choice as there is (0+ / 0-)

      if one is looking for someone with a shitload of experience, especially in foreign policy.

    •  Because he had no money (0+ / 0-)

      In the beginning of 2007, the Clintons were threatening people who wanted to put on fundraisers for Biden.  He had a hard time raising money.  

      There were other reasons.  His sister ran all of his campaigns, and outside of a One-CD campaign in Delaware she is a flaming incompetent.  Ask any of the Iowans who tried to help him what they think of Valerie Biden and her snotty daughter who was his "National Political Director,"  and who did more to alienate regular folks and volunteers in this state than any other single person.

      In the beginning he had a good state director and staff with long caucus experience.  The Delaware contingent got rid of anyone who knew anything about Iowa, but sooner or later you have to face caucus night with the campaign you have, not the campaign you keep saying you have.

      Biden was a fabulous campaigner, not a good campaign strategist.  Obama has the campaigning part under control.

  •  Obama's choice will (0+ / 0-)

    tell us more about him than be useful in any other way.  So many mediocre names have been bandied about.  Only a few exceptional choices.  Doesn't look good for the exceptional.

  •  Wow. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slaney black

    It strikes me that any pick designed to cover up a "flaw" in Obama (i.e. "lack of foreign policy credentials") only accentuates those flaws.

    It's been a while since I've agreed with kos, but that's something I've been saying for a while.  I'd rather have someone without a ton of experience, but reinforces Obama's message and positives.

    •  thats YOU (0+ / 0-)

      what about the undecideds?

      Trust me when I say THEY are looking for experience AND change.

      McCain is experience but no change (yet they still consider him??!!)

      Obama is change but people don't think he's experienced.

      If Obama chooses someone with real or perceived experience we win handily.

      Give Em Hell!! OBAMA 08

      by mdmslle on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:37:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'd be fine with him (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pd, DavidCD, KeepingItBlueKrstna

    He sure as hell would stand up to any "swiftboating"!

  •  Better Biden or Bayh than Dascle (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Drdemocrat, NotGeorgeWill

    Lincoln was overrated...

    by ThePrometheusMan on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:47:43 PM PDT

  •  Wow ... (12+ / 0-)

    Isn't Kos the whiny one today!

    Obama's got enough change in himself for the whole ticket. What he needs is a smart, loudmouthed pitbull to rip into McCain on a daily basis.

    I know two people offhand who fit that bill, and I'd rather have Biden than Clinton.

  •  WORD (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skid, slaney black

    That Bankruptcy vote still chaps my hide.

    But of the 3 I like Biden at least when unleashed he could tear into anyone the GOP puts up.

    I think Kerry is a good choice but I am still quite found of Kerry and Theresa - I miss Theresa actually..

    **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

    by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:48:17 PM PDT

    •  There are pros and cons to every choice (3+ / 0-)

      and I agree about the bankruptcy bill--but taking everything together, including public opinion and the need to convince people Obama's got the FP advice he needs and Biden's appeal to older voters, I think Biden is the best choice to ensure victory in November.

      I say that as a serious Sebelius fan. I'd love to see her on the ticket, but the media would go nuts over it.

      •  I think (0+ / 0-)

        We may be sharing a brain - could explain this headache. I love love love Kathleen and was holding out for her. Not that strong of an attack dog that we have seen but she is just doing a fantastic job in KS.

        I agree completely with Biden that is pretty much where I am at with him.

        No wife of any of the VP can match Theresa she was entertaining. Seriously doesn't anyone else miss her? I still wonder how Edwards got by her bullshit o meter that lady strikes me as an ass kicker..

        **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

        by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:01:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The whole election is about war & economic crisis (0+ / 0-)

        Choosing a guy instrumental in precipitating both would be foolish.

        Iraq + bankruptcy = dealbreaker.

        Biden is just a ringer for the High Broderites. He should not be the pick, nor will he be.

        I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

        by slaney black on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:01:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Gawd (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dansac, bethcf4p

    I just wish he'd announce his choice so we can move forward.

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by Barbara Morrill on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:48:52 PM PDT

  •  Well, since we're playing this game-- (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jeremylreed, imabluemerkin, Junah

    here's my worthless two cents: he'll pick someone unexpected, someone who hasn't been widely discussed. It would be in keeping with his change theme and would garner interest and further discussion in the media.

    As far as picking someone because he/she represents a particular state--that hasn't worked in the past so I don't see him doing that. Edwards didn't bring in N.Carolina. I'm too lazy to do the research, but when was the last time a Dem candidate won a swing state because his VP was from there?

    You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

    by Libertaria on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:50:11 PM PDT

  •  Let me see (0+ / 0-)

    Biden voted for Iraqi War Authorization, judgement bad.
    Kerry and Daschle voted for Iraqi War Authorization, judgement good!
    Gee Kos, next.
    I like Clark, but he won't be picked.

    With God On Our Side-Dylan

  •  My Cabinet Wisdom (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skid, dkosdan, Steaming Pile

    VP- Wesley Clark
    SecDef- Chuck Hagel
    SecState- Bill Richardson
    UN Amb- Samantha Powers

    I've always admired the ability to bite off more than one can chew, and then chew it. -William DeMille

    by Kordo on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:52:00 PM PDT

    •  Many of us Progressives consider (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      choosing a Republican for Defense as an admission that Dems aren't strong enough.  Hagel would be great for Dept of Veterans Affairs, as he'd fight for proper funding, unlike all those rebuplicans who are chickenhawks, but don't take care of the troops when they come home.

      McBush, McSame. McMaverick, McVain. They're all so... Principled!

      by filby on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:07:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I hear it was leaked by an Obama intern (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, Pd, fedaykin

    by accident. The pick is Bayh.  It's a great pick for Obama.  Contrary to what Kos thinks, you need to get the votes of people who agree with you around 50% of the time to vote for you if you want to be President.  Bayh appeals to Clinton Democrats in the midwest (i.e., working class whites).  He can deliver Indiana.  He has extensive experience.  He has been very effective on tv for Obama. He sliced and diced Pawlenty the other day (and Pawlenty's pretty good for a Republican).  Bayh has also come around to Obama's position on the war and presented the argument confidently.  

    He also has a young family like Obama, and the image of a professional white family and a professional black family with young children standing on the same stage is a great one for the party and the country.  This country is about the future, not the past.  

    Other than Clinton, Bayh is the only candidate who adds something to the electoral map.  He can help in Indiana, Ohio and Missouri and make this election a comfortable win.

    Alternative rock with something to say:

    by khyber900 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:52:02 PM PDT

    •  No That has been Debunked (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askew, slaney black, abrauer

      And quite throughly. It was a very bad photo shop job the fonts on the page didn't match a lot of misspelled words too.

      Plus if they were 2 days away would they really give it to an intern of any age?  

      **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

      by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:53:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, Bayh is still the best pick of those he is (0+ / 0-)

        reported to be considering.

        Alternative rock with something to say:

        by khyber900 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:59:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Eh (0+ / 0-)

          I don't think so but I wouldn't be throwing myself in front of a bus either. I just wish he had a little more under the hood when it came to chewing some arse - we need someone that is not going to put up with people like Lindsey Graham

          **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

          by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:03:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No WAY it can be Bayh - Obama needs someone known (0+ / 0-)


            Listen, I havent donated to Obama since FISA.

            And I dont plan to campaign or donate another penny to him, nothing aside from the two votes I cast (because my wife just signs what I push at her).

            And maybe Im not important.

            But there are few things that would get me exicted enough, right now, to actually get up and donate again.

            And its certainly not Bayh, whoever he is.  2 guys nobody knows? wtf?

            Id donate to Biden though, cause I know he'll stick a hot poker up McCains ass.

            And Id donate to Clark too, because I know he'll do the same - just more effective.

            I cant see why it would be Bayh.  They already have their work cut out defending Obaman from being recast.

            They need someone who is already well known.

      •  Was the alleged "intern" also named Monica? n/t (0+ / 0-)

        "George Bush Doesn't Care About People"

        by WriterRoss on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:33:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My big issue with Biden (0+ / 0-)

    There is real concern about him, when it comes to the issue of space policy.  His comments have been somewhat hostile to commerical spaceflight, and he didn't really seem to think much about manned spaceflight in general, when asked about it

  •  Several blogs claimed (0+ / 0-)

    that Wes Clark was disinvited to the convention. Is that true or just rumors?

    You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

    by Libertaria on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:53:12 PM PDT

    •  he was told (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      filby, Libertaria, slaney black

      He was not going to be given a speaking slot. His office then released a statement he would happily shift his schedule to for anything but it is not going to happen.

      Not invited is a strong word the campaign was just a bit indifferent on the subject.

      **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

      by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:55:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not invited 'then', but what about just before? (0+ / 0-)

        So he wasn't YET invited.

        They can just tell him they are GOING To invite him, and then dont actually invite him till moments before.

        Pretty convenient way to keep the press talking, you know.

        Read into the Hillary-speak, we all learned to understand.

        Not going to be given a speaking slot are your words... if you read theirs, you can see there is plenty of room for him still to be invited.

      •  Or it's a BRILLIANT way to (0+ / 0-)

        throw us off track!  Boy, that Obama campaign is clever.

        McBush, McSame. McMaverick, McVain. They're all so... Principled!

        by filby on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:08:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I would like to read a good advocacy for Sebelius (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Seneca Doane

    Everyone keeps saying it but if there has been a diary explaining why I missed it.
    I like her, esp. her style of governing and her years of confronting the insurance industry but...

    Could she step in as president, now? Would the public buy her?
    The same thing applies to Kaine. Great guy but being accepted as ready to fill Obama's shoes?

    "When the powerful say that the price was worth the blood and treasure, you can bet your ass it wasn't their blood, nor their treasure."

    by sceptical observer on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:53:27 PM PDT

  •  not happy to say this, but (0+ / 0-)

    HRC seems to be a good idea.  maybe my brain is still stuck in the primary war, when it seemed for a while that the 2 would have to run together to keep the party together, but i think it may be the best option.

    if ppl (undecideds, etc) are looking for reassurance, then HRC is very good for that.  obama will create a historic gap among minorities and youth.  HRC would create one with women.

    obviously, she's a good campaigner, and a tough attack dog.

    i don't think R's attacks on her would be successful (unless they can prove something...), b/c the country had to live with about 10 years of attacks on the clintons and eventually didn't care anyone.

    would need al gore's lockbox to put bill in, though.

  •  Best hope is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, SecondComing, DavidCD

    that Obama picks someone who enables him to win in November.  Biden is a great attack dog.  Reed and Bayh aren't.  In 2012 Obama could pick a good progressive running mate to take over after he leaves.  My favorites are Brian Schweitzer, Kathleen Sebelius, Russ Feingold, Chet Culver, or Martin O'Malley.  But that's only if he wins in 2008.

    Lincoln was overrated...

    by ThePrometheusMan on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:54:50 PM PDT

  •  I'd be excited (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, DavidCD

    One for the doctor who cures disease; and one for the lorax who fights for the trees. Fitz's Blog

    by fitz2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:56:07 PM PDT

  •  Now I'm sure it will be Biden! (6+ / 0-)

    Barack will do it just to smack down Kos.

    If Markos would just pay him the jack we wouldn't have to suffer like this.

    It's the fascism, stupid!

    by lastman on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 10:58:55 PM PDT

  •  Start a War make Billions (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Iraqis buy billions in U.S. arms
    By Charles Levinson, USA TODAY

    Who could thought of such a thing when Iraq has Billions surplus.

    "The Conservatives definition of torture: Anything that provides death or false information from its captive." Me 2007

    by army193 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:00:10 PM PDT

  •  Kaine or Reed. Iraq is key so it should be Reed. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Kaine the electoral choice...nails down VA which is good. He's not good on abortion and Iraq though and that takes Obama off message on both. He'll end up having to defend choice of Kaine just to get VA. Giving up on principles and all that.

    Reed the national security choice.  Right on Iraq. West Point grad, dukes it with McCain on the experience and judgment issue...and wins. Reed is a solid liberal voter so he matches Obama's record, principles choice.

    Reed keeps to Obama's message on Iraq which is key to beating McCain. Obama had better judgment on Iraq. Only those who got Iraq right are qualified to be president.

    •  Democrats win on the economy (0+ / 0-)

      Jobs, healthcare, infrastructure... just because the High Broderists all want to talk about how The Surge is Working doesn't mean people aren't hurting here at home.

      Why can't we have a vp with domestic executive experience? I find the media's fixation that the vp must be a national security type extremely offensive.

      I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

      by slaney black on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:49:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  McCain campaign vs. Obama is national security (0+ / 0-)

        Obama wins on the economy. That is not where McCain is attacking Obama. McCain is attacking over national security, Iraq, foreign affairs stuff. His attacks are successful and McCain now leads on the no toss up electoral map. All from McCain ads attacking Obama's "experience" over Iraq.

        Obama can come back IF he stays on message that Iraq was/is a $1T, 50,000 casualty disaster which demontrates McCain is as incompetent as Bush on national security.

        Obama can only stay on message if his running mate opposed Iraq war. Otherwise McCain can say that Iraq judgment is not big deal because Obama's VP also voted for the war. It like Clinton's attack on Obama over Iraq which blew up when she said, "But he'd make a great VP", immediately undercutting her whole point that Obama was not ready.

        If Obama goes with a pro-Iraq VP, he undercuts his main claim to being a better choice than McCain.

        Kaine, if he can deliver VA, might be worth making that move so Kaine is a possibility but Reed is the best choice for Obama in terms of Iraq attack from McCain.

  •  Biden had my full support when he was a candidate (7+ / 0-)

    When it comes to foreign policy, he flat out gets it. In my opinion, he would have made the best President in this current volatile world; however, he doesn't have the rhetoric or the speaking ability that Obama has.

    As far as "conforming to his change message", I wish people would see the entire "change" mantra for what it really is: It is a change in administrations and a change back to sane Democratic governance. It is rhetoric, plain and simple. Obama can harp on change and hope all he wants; he is a smart politician that is playing the right cards at the right time. He obviously knows what it takes to win an election. Washington is a town that will always be "broken" to ordinary Americans.

    Anyone that truly believes that one man can change the current political culture in Washington is setting themselves up for a letdown. Politics is politics and the campaign is neverending for both sides.

    •  Decreeing that Iraq be split up into three (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      separate semi-countries whether they like it or not?  Bold -- but not what I want the debate to be about for the next 80 days.

      John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

      by Seneca Doane on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:04:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Though it (2+ / 0-)

        Was the right call. Winston Churchill knew it - too bad he let his arrogant aids talk him out of it. His grandson has said over and over this was one of his Grandfathers biggest failures.

        **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

        by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:09:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No. Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

        Read his plan for Iraq.  He was not decreeing anything.  He did not propose partition.  It was a federalism structure already provided for in the Iraqi Constitution.  

        Do your homework.

        •  Grade my "homework" and do yours: (0+ / 0-)

          He and Leslie Gelb were promoting what was known as a "soft partition" with some sort of unclear level of central authority but mostly autonomy.  This was not perceived, at least, as being merely what was in the Iraqi Constitution, or as being where events would take us anyway, or it would not have been newsworthy.  Here's a report on the proposal; it's probably worth reading, since we'll end up defending it if he's chosen.

          Admittedly, Biden said that it was not a "partition."  That to me is not determinative of whether it was a partition.  The devil was in the details, and the details of how a "softly partitioned" Iraq would survive expected problems were entirely unclear.

          Now for your homework: did Iraqis perceive this proposal as imposing something they didn't want upon them?  Is there any reason they would feel that way, if "federalism" was already present in "their" Constitution?  (The scare quotes are a hint.)

          John McCain's Court will overturn Roe; don't kid yourself.

          by Seneca Doane on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:42:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Two Senators on the Ticket? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DavidCD, NotGeorgeWill, Junah

    Gen. Wesley Clark has the right stuff.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Wesley Kanne Clark, KBE (born December 23, 1944) is a retired General of the United States Army. Clark was valedictorian of his class at West Point, was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship to the University of Oxford where he obtained a degree in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics (Philosophy, Politics & Economics), and later graduated from the Command and General Staff College with a master's degree in military science. He spent 34 years in the Army and the Department of Defense, receiving many military decorations, several honorary knighthoods, and a Presidential Medal of Freedom.

    Clark commanded Operation Allied Force in the Kosovo War during his term as the Supreme Allied Commander Europe of NATO from 1997 to 2000.

    Clark joined the 2004 race for the Democratic Party presidential nomination as a candidate on September 17, 2003, but withdrew from the primary race on February 11, 2004, after winning the Oklahoma state primary, endorsing and campaigning for the eventual Democratic nominee, John Kerry. Clark currently leads a political action committee — "WesPAC: Securing America" — which was formed after the primaries,[1] and used it to support numerous Democratic Party candidates in the 2006 midterm elections.[2] Clark was considered a potential candidate for the Democratic nomination in 2008, but, on September 15, 2007, endorsed Senator Hillary Clinton.[3] After Clinton dropped out of the Presidential race, Clark endorsed the presumptive Democratic nominee, Barack Obama.[4]

    "The Conservatives definition of torture: Anything that provides death or false information from its captive." Me 2007

    by army193 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:03:45 PM PDT

    •  yet (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pd, Seneca Doane, slaney black

      has never translated any of that to elctoral success. He would not bring Obama Arkansas and has a really bad habit of running his mouth and bad things happening.

      I was switched from Kerry to Clark briefly in 04 and then back to Clark - I wish and still do that he had gone back to AR and ran for Governor or Senate and made a splash like that.The forever advocate and surrogate role while helpful does not make me think he can govern or win support for issues.

      **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

      by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:07:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That line (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        is suppose to be Kerry to Clark and Back to Kerry - I think it is time to play some madden and hit the hay eyes getting blurry...

        **Disclosure: Recovering Edwards Supporter. Switched to Obama after his drop but recent events still hurt***

        by Jeremylreed on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:19:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'll keep it simple. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slaney black

    It will be Kaine.  I've been calling it since late May.

    Check the sig line - it hasn't changed in 3 months.

    Kos, Kaine is a fresh-face that spells "change."  Why the preemptive disapointment?

    You'll all be fawning over him next Wednesday when he gives his stellar speech in Denver.

    Obama/Kaine '08 - The Winning Team

    by Tim in CA on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:04:05 PM PDT

    •  Why do you think Kaine is a good choice (0+ / 0-)

      other than some ad-men type reason?

      •  Kaine is a great choice (0+ / 0-)

        For several reasons - 1 he's from Virginia. This is the biggest electoral state Obama has a good chance of turning back to blue. Second, he's a governor. Executive experience, and leadership are better than senatorial experience. And third, he comes across as a likable, honest guy.

        Drawing from the left-side of my biased imagination.

        by pixelmarx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:11:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If I know O the way I think O (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          he has polled this and he will choose whoever helps him get the most votes where it matters.  I suspect an older, moderate white male (Bayh) or female (Clinton?!).

          •  A Veep only helps to win votes (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            slaney black

            if it doesn't contradict the entire premise of your candidacy.

            Obama is making this electiion about the past vs the future, the people vs the Washington insiders etc.

            Bayh, Clinton, and Biden all fail that test.

            Also, you're forgetting that Kaine is sitting governor of a state that caries 13 EVs and is literally a toss-up.  It's the closest state in the nation based on current polling.

            If Kaine can even swing 1 or 2 percent of the votes there, then he brings 13 EVs in his pocket.

            Oh yeah, and he reinforces Obama's message beautifully (see my comment below).

            Obama/Kaine '08 - The Winning Team

            by Tim in CA on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:29:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't think so (0+ / 0-)

              I think O's thinking now (probably always) is that he's out to win.  Change is rhetoric.  Always has been.  He's actually run a very, very centrist campaign.

              Would it were he wasn't and ran as a true contrast candidate.  That simply is not Obama.

        •  I liked him better after reading the NYT (0+ / 0-)

          piece on him; however: four years ago Obama was in the state legislature, Kaine was mayor of Richmond.

          That ticket won't hunt.

      •  Here's why: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        1. humility (not a drama queen, will support Obama's message and work for it, as was evidenced by his early endorsement)
        1. religious faith (i.e. democrats can be religious too)
        1. believes in the value of public service
        1. excellent speaker
        1. connects with voters on a heart level - (doesn't come across as contrived)
        1. plays good bluegrass harmoica (nobody will discount his American roots)
        1. worked as a civil rights lawyer (i.e. supports Obama's message that ultimately we are "one people")
        1. supports Obama's post-partisan brand of democratic politics that states "we can disagree without being disagreable" - (for instance, he is against capital punishment for moral/religious reasons but nevertheless vows to uphold the law as it stands)

        He is also:

        1. Catholic
        1. Raised in a Kansas City suburb and went to University of Missouri (swing state)
        1. fluent in spanish
        1. governor of the swingiest and perhaps most-important electoral state in this election

        Obama/Kaine '08 - The Winning Team

        by Tim in CA on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:21:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heres why its bad... (0+ / 0-)

          Who the fuck is Kaine???

          I don't have the faintest idea, and I read here from time to time.  I mostly read Huffpo.  So you could call me an enlightened reader.

          I still dont know who Kaine is.

          Excitement factor?  ZERO.

          Chance for Repugs to paint him bad and define him in the Americans eyes?  GOOD.

          Why would OBama pick someone else they have to define before the Repugs do?

          The VP will be somebody with national recognition, because they can't afford for it to be someone that no one in the West has ever heard of.

          •  So: Obama says "my staff sucks... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tim in CA

            there is no way they can successfully introduce a new guy. They are just too powerless and the Republicans will run all over a new face. I will have to pick an old hand so I can just let media perception handle it."

            If that's the case we may as well concede the election right now.

            I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

            by slaney black on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:11:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Kaine? No. Here is why: (0+ / 0-)

      Pronunciation of such is phonetically identical to "Cain", the Biblical "First Murderer".  NEXT!

  •  Why not Tim Kaine? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tim in CA, slaney black, abrauer

    Maybe I'm not paying enough attention to this site, but why is Kaine a bad choice, according to Kos?  I'm at a loss.

    "'Shit' is the tofu of cursing" --David Sedaris

    by LiberalVirginian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:06:31 PM PDT

    •  Kaine is the best choice. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I agree...I'm not sure what KOS would have a problem with Tim Kaine for, expect he doesn't have tons of experience. In my book, that's a good thing.

      Drawing from the left-side of my biased imagination.

      by pixelmarx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:08:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Experience can't be it... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tim in CA, slaney black, abrauer

        It strikes me that any pick designed to cover up a "flaw" in Obama (i.e. "lack of foreign policy credentials") only accentuates those flaws.

        Picking Kaine wouldn't do that.

        But I'd love to see him pick a fresh face in politics who reinforces Obama's message of change.

        Kaine does exactly that.

        I'm seriously confused by Kos here--honestly, the only negative thing I've ever heard from Kos about Kaine before the last week was hen Kos called Kaine a "coward" on the front page a week before the 05 VA Gub race, because Kaine distanced himself from a blogger.  That grudge isn't still holding, is it?

        "'Shit' is the tofu of cursing" --David Sedaris

        by LiberalVirginian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:12:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Kaine fails to be Wesley Clark (0+ / 0-)

          and Kos is still nursing his man-crush on Wesley.  I fear his time in the military left him with a weakness for the generalissimos.

          Obama/Feingold - that's the ticket!

          by abrauer on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:21:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What has Kaine done in Virginia? (0+ / 0-)

          I haven't seen any cite any actual accomplishments from Kaine as governor.  He's a first-term governor and his approval ratings are only in the mid 50's, so he doesn't necessarily bring a state.

          Kaine apparently isn't very progressive either (but as a moderate libertarian, so that might be why he's no longer a popular choice.  He's weak on the environment (coal), the estate tax, and initially supported the war (and backed Lieberman in 04).

          John McCain does not speak for the John McCain campaign.

          by Namtrix on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:24:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Kept things running steady (0+ / 0-)

            No, there isn't a major legislative achievement to point to.

            But VA has retained a lead in indicators like best business environment, best governance, best education system. To my mind that's not too bad at all.

            His stance on the war is disappointing, but then again at least he didn't actually vote for it - where the other two guys on the short list did.

            I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

            by slaney black on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:16:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Kaine is a horrible choice, because (0+ / 0-)

        Who the fuck is Kaine???

        I don't have the faintest idea, and I read here from time to time.  I mostly read Huffpo.  So you could call me 'enlightened', or 'informed' compared to most voters.

        I still dont know who Kaine is.

        Excitement factor?  ZERO.

        Chance for Repugs to paint him bad and define him in the Americans eyes?  GOOD.

        Why would OBama pick someone else they have to define before the Repugs do?

        The VP will be somebody with national recognition, because they can't afford for it to be someone that no one out West has ever heard of.

    •  Republican Lt. Governor . . . (0+ / 0-)

      for starters.  Pick Kaine as VP and the GOP has the inside track going into 2009.

      Odds are Kaine will get a cabinet appointment -- maybe he can even help to resolve the transportation issue in the state as well from a federal position.  As far as Virginia is concerned, he can probably do more for the state from a cabinet position.

      Kaine also doesn't have a national profile -- meaning that his impact is largely going to be in Virginia.  Over the course of 80 some odd days, it's good to have a familiar face -- especially for a candidate who is still relatively new to the national political scene.  I think Biden will bring a level of reassurance to some voters who are skittish about the experience question -- more so than Kaine will.

      •  Bill Bolling (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The guy doesn't even want the job... just wants to stay Lt. Gov. and work on his insurance business on the side.

        And the state Republican party is scared assless of him getting it, because he's a weak, way too conservative candidate for top of the ticket.

        I agree it's not ideal, but on the other hand it probably gives the Dems a better shot in '09 than if Kaine served out his term and the Repubs were able to run the state attorney general as their candidate.

        I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

        by slaney black on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:19:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The VA state GOP . . . (0+ / 0-)

          is afraid that Bolling's "too conservative"?

          This is the same state party that essentially closed the door on a Tom Davis Senate run this year.  These are the same folks who almost chose Bob Marshall over Jim Gilmore.  I can see the GOP resisting a candidate who is not sufficiently socially conservative -- but "too conservative"?  I find that hard to believe.  

          McDonnell, a Robertson protege, strikes me as every bit as socially conservative as Bolling.  The main difference is that McDonnell has some Northern Virginia roots and that he's a lot more telegenic than Bolling -- on the issues though he seems to be pretty much a down the line social conservative.  

          Should be an interesting election in 2009.  I don't think either Moran or Deeds are shoe-ins -- especially if the GOP runs a guy who excites the party base.  Moran probably brings more dollars to the table; Deeds can neutralize social issues and should be able to limit McDonnell's appeal along the 81 corridor.  Neither is as clear cut a choice as Kaine was in 2005.

          •  Is Moran a real shot? (0+ / 0-)

            If so he'll be the first candidate I max out to!

            I know who Obama's veep will be. You can too!

            by slaney black on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:09:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  From what I understand . . . (0+ / 0-)

              the race for the party nomination is between Moran and Deeds at this point.  

              As far as Moran's electoral chances go, I think he's at a disadvantage relative to Deeds coming from Northern Virginia -- the Northern Virginia liberal label seems like a near kiss of death for statewide office general election.  But Moran probably has the inside track on the party nomination.  I haven't followed his campaign to closely, but based on the cursory information that I know it sounds like he's done a good job of cultivating support in the Hampton Roads area -- and he has the built-in base support in Northern Virginia.  My own personal inclination too is more towards Moran than Deeds -- but I could live with either of them over whatever the GOP is likely to serve up.

              Looks like Moran currently has a website set up for his run at: Brian Moran

    •  I think Kaine would be great. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
  •  I like Biden (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, SecondComing, DavidCD

    Obama needs an attack dog and he's perfect for the job. He can go after McCain like he went after Rudy. Maybe something like;  McCain=noun/verb/POW or McCain=noun/verb/the surge. BTW, I think General Clark would be really good too.

  •  It Will Be Obama/Kaine (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tim in CA, slaney black

    Based solely one a bumper sticker test, of the three contending names being thrown around, Biden, Bayh, Kaine, Kaine is the only one that passes. Obama Biden his time. Obama Bayh Bye. I like Obama Raising Some Cain.

    Drawing from the left-side of my biased imagination.

    by pixelmarx on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:06:45 PM PDT

  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

    and if Obama is going to pick a guy that has been around for decades,

    I still like DODD.

    McCain economic policy shaped by lobbyist

    by signals on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:07:05 PM PDT

  •  Kos is mad at Biden for supporting war (3+ / 0-)

    but Kerry did too. I dont get his reasoning

    Digg this:

    by robertacker13 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:08:02 PM PDT

  •  how about sending all of us the text message (0+ / 0-)

    the very moment mr. mccain announces his selection? let there be two vp picks on the same day and same hour. rob the msm of the opportunity to bring in the liars and propagandists for two weeks only to be followed by msm cheerleading the announcement of whatever souless republican hack is bribed to play the game.

    •  Some problems (0+ / 0-)

      First, this would suggest that Obama is playing to the schedule set by McCain's camp.  It could play out in the media that Obama had to rush a decision due to circumstances in his opponent's control.  A few seasons ago, Glen Sather was deciding whether to name the New York Rangers newest head coach and the final candidates were Tom Renney (past assistant coach) and Joel Quenneville (recently fired coach of the St. Louis Blues).  Typically when the Rangers hire a new coach, there's just about everything short of a ticker tape parade around Madison Square Garden.  This time, it was announced via a conference call scheduled about an hour in advance.  Tom Renney was named head coach.  Why the rush?  Well, the next morning a different team (I think the Colorado Avalanche) named Quenneville as their head coach.  Joel most likely called Sather to withdraw his application and Slats had to rush a press conference to make it appear Tom Renney wasn't chosen simply because he's the one whom was left.

      Moral of the story?  I'd rather see Obama announce his choice at the time that's right for Obama and treat McSame's timing and decision of a VP as inconsequential come November 3rd.

      •  and also (0+ / 0-)

        There's a tactical advantage to having your VP chosen well before McSame.  Let's say Obama chooses Biden.  They can establish a division of labor where Obama works on electing Obama while Biden spends time discussing McCain in the media.  If McCain has to waste a few weeks campaigning against our VP nominee, Obama will have a leg up.

        While we're at it, I think Biden could be the person most capable of prodding McCain just right as to have that meltdown on camera we're all uncomfortably waiting for.

  •  kos speaks: (0+ / 0-)

    Biden doesn't. Clinton doesn't. Bayh certainly doesn't. If holding out for Sebelius is too much to ask for, and if Obama is going to pick a guy that has been around for decades, then pick Kerry. Or even Daschle.

    I so admire that.

    Also, I feel like I'm typing directly into the stratosphere, if that makes sense.

    What fun!

    I'll reject Kerry and stand with Daschle.

    So easy.

    Kerry's high profile is over.

    "Only the PTA? You know what the PTA stands for? Three things I respect and fear: Parents, Teachers, and Associations." [Rob Petrie]

    by eroded47095 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:08:48 PM PDT

  •  KOS take TalkLeft off your Bloglist!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (0+ / 0-)

    Digg this:

    by robertacker13 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:10:42 PM PDT

  •  Kerry voted for the war too... n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, DavidCD
  •  How many days into the Obama presidency... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    askew, bethcf4p, DavidCD, margeauxtex

    ...until Kos declares it a massive failure?

    •  relative to what? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      This reminds me of early 1993 when Dave Berry constantly referred to "the failed Clinton presidency" as a joke. Unfortunately it didn't take long for that to be no longer just a joke. Then came 1994.

      I don't think Obama can be treated the same way by anyone sane, if he wins. He will have gotten past both the odds-on favorite to win the Democratic nomination and a Republican war hero plus whatever else historic one sees in his victory. Republicans will ridicule him. So will racists. So will anyone who loves an agenda that Obama doesn't fill more than anything broader than oneself. I suspect that still leaves plenty of people who can appreciate the amazing victory in Obama just getting elected, even if this is a Democratic year. I could be wrong.

  •  I could give a flying f*k about who (6+ / 0-)

    O problems with Biden go way further than the Iraq war ---hello, Clarence Thomas, thank you Sen. Biden.  So with my completely agnostic view based upon ideology of a vp choice, I think Biden would be excellent.  

    My concern is the top of the ticket and how the subordinate helps the top win.  So with that in mind, I think Biden is actually one of the best choices because he has no compunction about getting dirty and throwing punches, and it's about f*g time we had a vp nominee who would do his gosh darn job.

  •  dream ticket (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, filby

    "But I'd love to see him pick a fresh face in politics who reinforces Obama's message of change."

    Wouldn't Wexler be great? We can always dream ...

  •  I'm for Biden because of Who He Is. (9+ / 0-)

    As a person.  

    Love this segment from Matt Stearns a year ago describing him...

    Finally, there’s his story, who Joe Biden is. Stuttering son of a middle-class car salesman. Struggle financially at the University of Delaware. Beat his stutter by reciting poetry to the mirror. As a young lawyer, upset an incumbent senator in the Republican year of 1972. Then, before he took office, tragedy: Wife and daughter killed in a car wreck. His two boys seriously injured. Biden nearly quit public life before he really began it, but agreed to give it six months, which led to 34 years and counting. He married again, had a daughter. He commutes by train 250 miles each day, every day, between Wilmington and Washington to be with his family.

    Biden struggles to turn long career into election gold

    And he can be amazing at times.  His Iowa Jefferson Jackson dinner speech was amazing, and made me wish he were up there among the celebrity candidates.

    In case you need a reminder....

    Cancer research, prevention and treatment. Make it an issue. ACS Cancer Action Network

    by KeepingItBlueKrstna on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:18:07 PM PDT

  •  too bad there's not a Kennedy to choose from (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    would that satsify us Dems?

    Enough! Send her back to OZ!

    by johnviking on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:18:51 PM PDT

  •  Kos, this speculation is killing me! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I fully expect to be full of joy like a kid on Christmas morning, when Barack Obama announces his VP pick.

    And dammit Santa, I better get what I want this time. I have someone in mind for VP but I will not contribute to this cesspool of endless VP speculation.

    Conservatives are close-minded, shallow, superficial people that live in a fantasy world where everything is black and white and there are NO shades of gray.

    by Brad007 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:20:04 PM PDT

  •  nothing wrong (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, begone, Dave the Rave, filby


    with this picture, IMHO.

    what an incredible team they would make!

    Americans Abroad: Yes You Can Vote for Barack Obama! click my name for more...

    by Terri on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:20:16 PM PDT

  •  GAHHH (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I thought Obama had announced Joe Biden as his running mate, after 1 AM Eastern, when I say this story.


  •  Biden is an excellent attack dog (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, WriterRoss, 2laneIA, DavidCD, MKSinSA

    Obama doesn't have anyone out there who's a great attack dog right now.  The best one out there in my opinion is Biden.  He'll just have to be careful to stay on message and not run his mouth independently.  I disagree with Kos in that the electorate will not care much about whether Biden supported the war or not, or about his shitty credit card companies vote.  He's not the one at the top of the ticket, which is who the people are really voting for.  

    Biden will be immediately seen as capable of taking over the office of the Presidency if need be.  That is of course, the most important requirement. At the same time, Biden has enough foriegn policy chops to drink McCain's milkshake, as they say--leaving Obama free to crush McSame on the economy/domestic front.

    •  Obama's not looking for an "attack dog" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slaney black

      He's looking for someone who reinforces his fundamental message about changing washington, kicking out the special interests, and building a new American majority that works to address greater problems that confront us all.

      He's looking for Tim Kaine.

      Obama/Kaine '08 - The Winning Team

      by Tim in CA on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:31:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No hes not looking for Kaine, (0+ / 0-)

        Cause nobody knows who the hell Kaine is, and they dont have time to define him in voters eyes before the Repugs do.

        Who the fuck is Kaine???

        I don't have the faintest idea, and I read here from time to time.  I mostly read Huffpo.  So you could call me an enlightened reader.

        I still dont know who Kaine is.

        Excitement factor?  ZERO.

        Chance for Repugs to paint him bad and define him in the Americans eyes?  GOOD.

        Why would OBama pick someone else they have to define before the Repugs do?

        The VP will be somebody with national recognition, because they can't afford for it to be someone that no one in the West has ever heard of.

      •  Then he'd be interesting in losing... (0+ / 0-)

        What kind of simple-minded voter would vote for two politicians that they have just been introduced to in the last 3 years, and have a combined total years of experience as 1 Senate term?

        Kaine brings nothing to the ticket. Edwards proved you can't rely on them to carry a state.

        Simply because Joe Biden is old doesn't mean he can't bring "change". Experience doesn't nullify change. Change isn't something that is set in stone.

  •  Biden is a good pick . . . (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, 2laneIA, flumptytail, DavidCD

    I wouldn't exactly consider myself a "Broderite" or a fan of the credit card industry -- however, I am someone who wants to see Obama elected president.

    Just within my own social circle the two VP choices that draw the most enthusiasm are Biden and Richardson.  Even if Obama can handle foreign policy on his own, there is a perception issue, which Biden can help bolster.  Biden can also play "heavy" in this area and will have the chops to give McCain some hard knocks.

    Barring a Wesley Clark pick -- which isn't going to happen -- I personally would be happy to see Biden selected.  In terms of perceptions he would bolster the "experience" question and provide some insurance for those who are still skittish over the question as it relates to Obama's candidacy.  I am not personally skittish over Obama's experience -- I think he's ready.  In terms of some of the leaners though -- people who will vote for Obama but have concerns about experience -- a Biden selection will go a long way towards removing those concerns.  

  •  'The Senator from MBNA'? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Someone has been reading his Alexander Cockburn (Washington Babylon).

    Naughty, naughty.

    Lately, when reading the Nation, I sense that even Cockburn sees a 'dime's worth of difference' between Obama and McCain.


  •  Why Does Bayh, Biden, Kaine not read... (0+ / 0-)
    - Jack Reed

    - Kathleen Sebelius

    - Wes Clark


    "It would send a horrible message to cut and run from Iraq." -Tim Kaine, 2006

    by nocore on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:37:10 PM PDT

  •  "I'd rather have candy." ?!? kos you do realize (5+ / 0-)

    why dems keep losing pres. elections. They keep nominating wimps, soft on crime, national defense/security, in a nutshell god awful pres. candidates ie McGovern, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry.

    Carter had a 30 pt. lead in '76 and almost lost and this was after the nixon and co. violated the constitution every which way but loose!

    Clinton, won w/the help of Perot and an economic downturn and didn't get 50%.

    Have to laugh at some of the smugness of so called intelligent kos posters when they talk of a frickin' dem landslide knowing the history of presidential politics the past 50 years.

    Yes, I am a liberal independent voting for Obama, but many of the elite kos posters/diary folk need to get a grip on why reps win elections and dems lose national elections. You are voting for Commander-in-Chief not city councilman.

    In '76, the economy was the pits and nixon had resigned and Carter barely won.

    This year, dubya has a 28% approval rating, wrong track of 80% and the economy is the pits and Obama can't pass the 50% threshold. In fairness, Reagan never had a lead in the polls until (2) wks before the 1980 election.

    Thankfully for the dems, the reps nominated a very, very weak candidate out of a group of very, very weak candidates as their nominee, so Obama has a chance.

    Did I mention a vote for pres. is a vote for C-in-C. I wish that many of the smug kos hierarchy/mainstays would wake up to the why's and wherefore's of American presidential politics.

    Bottom line, I will be happy w/a 270-268 dem win in Nov. and whatever Obama has to do to achieve this is absolutely acceptable to me. But picking a v-p w/an extensive military background never hurts when picking a C-in-C, just ask Washington, Jackson, Grant and Eisenhower ...

    take care

    p.s. enjoy your candy ;)

    When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to pause & reflect! ~ Mark Twain

    by shiloh on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:37:11 PM PDT

    •  Grant? (0+ / 0-)

      Yes, he won, but do we really want to point to him as a presidential model?

      •  Although not always an indicator of how (0+ / 0-)

        good or bad a pres. will be, an extensive military background ie war hero is never a bad thing when running for pres.

        The only reason McLame got elected senator in AZ, ok Cindy's family fortune was the other reason.

        Why Jim Webb eked out a win in VA. Nebraska is a good model, Kerrey, a dem and Hagel a rep, both Vietnam war heroes got elected to the senate even though NE is a very conservative state and you can apply this to presidential politics ie voting for C-in-C.

        btw, being from OH and my dad being a Civil War buff/expert always had a fondness for Ulysses ;) but my fav was Harding who had an illigitimate child while in office and have to thank our former governor for totally destroying the Taft legacy in OH! :) I digress ...

        take care

        When you find yourself in the majority, it's time to pause & reflect! ~ Mark Twain

        by shiloh on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:58:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  THANK YOU!! (0+ / 0-)

      Why so serious? Let's put a smile on that face.

      by AntonBursch on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:49:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  All the other picks seem so disappointing... (0+ / 0-)

    Compared to Gore.  I think that it is interesting he hasn't been announced as a convention speaker yet.

    Really this VP speculation is getting to me.  I just started an Obama/Gore 08 group on Facebook.  

  •  What the fuck?!? (4+ / 0-)

    Why the hell does Markos have to insult everyone who disagrees with him?

    You know... just because a lot of people listen to you, doesn't make you right, Markos.

    Learn something from John Edwards before it's you in the newspaper having the press rip you apart for some stupid thing you've done.  

    You aren't special.  Other people aren't perfect, but that doesn't mean they are shit.  

    You are going to fuck up some day and you are going to get it as bad as you've dished it out.

    You know... dems could learn something from the religious right... pride comes before a fall.

    This fall... pride will result in millions more losing their homes, millions more losing their lives because they can't afford the costs of healthcare, millions more entering into poverty, millions of youth being drafted to wars in Iran or who the hell knows maybe fucking Russia.

    But go ahead and reach for you candy.  The rest of us... we are happy to have some hope.

    Fuck all of you who think this election is about your movement instead of about the real lives of people who are suffering from being fucked over in life.

    Why so serious? Let's put a smile on that face.

    by AntonBursch on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:59:36 PM PDT

  •  One thing you can say about Biden is he's not (5+ / 0-)

    slick. He seems almost constitutionally incapable of lying. It would show Obama was planning to have a pretty open administration in my humble opinion. I like Biden. He's passionate. He's got a good heart and it shows.

    "I count on the American people to refuse to be shamed any more". Helen Thomas, May 2, 2008 on the subject of torture

    by flumptytail on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 11:59:51 PM PDT

    •  And I was actually quite disappointed when (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bethcf4p, flumptytail

      he dropped out of the Presidential race
      I alwsys liked Obama but in my dreams I never imagined he would be the nominee
      I presumed it was heading Clinton's way--- and I felt Biden was the only one who could battle her

      Is it obvious I never liked Clinton?

      And yes, I am a female. Just for the record.

      "George Bush Doesn't Care About People"

      by WriterRoss on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:44:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Addressing an issue is an acknowledgment (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, Knockout Ed

    that an issue exists??

    It strikes me that any pick designed to cover up a "flaw" in Obama (i.e. "lack of foreign policy credentials") only accentuates those flaws.

    now there's a couple ways of looking at this and everyone here can decide which of these ways is the more --- ahem  -- republican way of dealing with the issue.

    first of all you have to decide if one is addressing a perception issue or a real issue.  if it's just a perception issue, then it's true.  picking someone who is good at something is only going to draw attention to obama's lack of record in that area.  so one should either pick someone who is known for nothing, not good at anything, or better yet, pick no one at all.  

    Now if this is a legitimate issue for Obama.  If having Biden makes him a better president on Foriegn Policy, then there's no harm in saying that.

    Which would exist in stark contrast to an executive strategy that proceeds from the standpoint that addressing an issue is an admission that an issue exists.

    And we all know how well that's worked out for the Republicans in the long run.

    "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

    by Edgar08 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:03:01 AM PDT

  •  Then who would YOU pick Kos? n/t (0+ / 0-)

    We are all atheists about most of the gods that society has ever believed in - some of us just go one god further
    -- Richard Dawkin

    by deafmetal on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:05:25 AM PDT

  •  At this point, after watchin the talking heads (0+ / 0-)

    I'd just like to see the veep pick be someone that hasn't been repeatedly mentioned by the trad-med, so that we could see some egg on some mufuggin' faces

    "They stick it in your face and let you smell what they consider wrong." E: -5.62 S: -5.13

    by demotarian on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:08:19 AM PDT

  •  Kos, your wrong (6+ / 0-)

    I think Biden would be a strong choice. I, like you would LOVE to see a "fresh face", but lets be honest here. Any VP candidate without some sort of credentials of experience will play into the GOP "inexperience" lede. Outside of Wes Clark (a longshot) all the "fresh faces" that matter are out. Unless we reach for the Powell long shot. I think thats a BAD BAD idea. Of the remaining candidates, in my opinion one of the best choices all along, Biden is a strong VP candidate, and would certainly be a strong serving VP, were the ticket to be elected. He has far more foreign policy chops than anyone else in the field. He has balls (as in chutspa!!! Sorry ladies!!!) He would not be afraid to take the GOP BS machine on, head first. He is the ideal bad cop to Obama's good cop. All the candidates have weaknesses, INCLUDING Obama. As a VP, Biden at this point offers the most strength. A readers caveat: I am willing to admit that I gave money to Biden WAY back in Iowa, as at the time, after researching all the candidates, he was the ONLY one who had a clue and a reasonable plan on Iraq. As a "change" candidate, of course he is not. However, most need to remember that he was the youngest ever elected to the Senate (in fact at the time of winning was TOO YOUNG). He has a compelling personal story of a family level. He has a soul. He has strong Progressive credentials. I would be the first to slap the Obama-Biden sticker on my car.

    War is not the answer, for only love can congregrate: Marvin Gaye

    by kclala on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:08:28 AM PDT

  •  Why not Feingold? (0+ / 0-)

    Why isn't there a campaign on this site to pressure Obama to pick Feingold?

    "two psychics pass each other on the street, one says to the other 'you're doing alright, how am i?'"

    by Edgar08 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:09:23 AM PDT

  •  Since Kos obviously hates all the VP choices.... (3+ / 0-)

    who DOES he want for VP?  ??????

    •  Exactly. If no one is good enough, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      why bitch about it in an open blog and drive up the Obama negatives ? As the founder of this blog, I expect him to lead by being positive at this critical election moment.

      "Republicans pee on your head and tell you it's raining. Democrats, at least, hand you an umbrella!"

      by amk for obama on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:55:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I believe Kos left us a clue (0+ / 0-)

      Here it is:

      If holding out for Sebelius is too much to ask for...

      I favor her, too. Kathleen Sebelius brings quite a bit to the table - she has executive experience, a record of fiscal responsibility, and is a pro-life Catholic who has vetoed abortion legislation. She is viewed as one of the best governors in the country, and is respected by both Democrats and Republicans in her state.

      Consign corporatism to the dankest crypt, and assign justice to the highest crag. For A More Perfect Union.

      by Alohilani on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:54:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Geez, nothing against Sebelius but she is wrong (0+ / 0-)

        ... for the Obama ticket. For one thing, she accentuates the relative lack of experience our candidate is already struggling to address. For another, she doubles down on the change theme when a lot of voters want some reassurance that change will be balanced with a steady hand on the wheel of government. Sibelius has a great political future ahead of her and may well make a good candidate for high office one day. Right now, though, I seriously doubt most Americans could picture her as a potential POTUS should something happen to Obama ("Bob" forbid).

  •  Biden (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slaney black

    Biden = tired old pol, business-as-usual, insider, etc.  He has about as much character as Harry Reid. I am a Democrat but I just cannot get excited about the guy.  I still remember too clearly his smarmy performance at the Clarence Thomas hearings when Anita Hill was testifying.

  •  No embarrassment of VP riches (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Here's the problem.  There's isn't just one (or maybe two) names that jump out at you as being the ideal veep.

    There's no one out there which would rally near-universal excitement in this community, or for that matter, almost any other community.  So whomever, he chooses, well, I guess it's fine.

    Whatever. The veep doesn't do anything anyway.

    Unless it's Darth Cheney.

    "When Siddhartha has a goal, he does nothing. He thinks, he waits, he fasts. He goes through life like a stone through water." - H. Hesse, Siddhartha

    by thenekkidtruth on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:26:59 AM PDT

  •  Kos (0+ / 0-)

    I am already for the disappointment. Out of the 3 you mentioned, I guess it would be Biden who I would pick, if,  I had to pick between these 3.
    My expectations lower by the week.  I will be voting for Obama, but he is not winning over a large number of people at present.

    On my soapbox .... he should not have gone on national TV with this pastor because it has not helped him.  McCain obviously received the questions prior because he was too much into himself and he brought up the Supreme Court before it was mentioned.   This pastor should have delayed this interview until both sides were onboard to toss a coin. And I also blame Senator Obama for going along with this 'situtation at hand'  a judgement problem for me.   McCain won this TV debate because this sob cheated, and this pastor LIED, and Obama let it happen.

    I will await the disappointment of who Senator Obama picks for his VP.

  •  Biden's flawed to say the least (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I think as attack-dog on the campaign trail there are far worse choices. We need to win the White House before we start splitting hairs debating policy or decisions made in the past. The polls are uncomfortably close.

    I need Obama to win. Being a broke ex-patriot might be too much for me to handle successfully.

    How much is enough, Gordon?

    by SecondComing on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:34:27 AM PDT

  •  Nope (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Obama won't pick Biden. I know that you're talking about his negatives and they're quite glaring, I'm talking about the fact that Biden is from the East Coast.

    Obama is most likely to pick someone from the South or West to balance things. Obama will win the East Coast and West Coastal states quite handily, don't forget. Obama wouldn't gain anything from picking someone from the original 13 colonies, CA, OR, and WA. He needs to pick someone from the West and the South in order to try to siphon those states off the Republicans.

    Two choices from the West that would absolutely work: Richardson (most likely) and Schweitzer. Why do I say Richardson is most likely? The choosing of Richardson basically puts states with Hispanic populations (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Florida) in play. Colorado might even in play as well.

    Schweitzer might work... but not as well known as Richardson.

    One choice from the South that would work: Clark.

    Despite what I have heard about Obama and Clark recently, this combination would definitely work. Not only he might get Arkansas for Obama, states like Georgia, Louisiana, and Mississippi might be in play. Although I'm not quite sure on Louisiana.

    McCain definitely loses some of that "military benefit" if Obama picks Clark.

    Obama knows that states such as the original 13 colonies and CA, OR, and WA are definitely in the column, plus the northern midwest states such as MN, IL, WI, and MI. He'll definitely right IA and get it back.

    Trust me, there is no way that Obama will pick a fellow northerner or a fellow Democrat from a well known Democratic state.

    If it's all about change, you will definitely expect him to make his VP choice beneficial to make those states that used to be Republican 4 years ago turn Democratic and boost his EC count.  

    •  Richardson is def my 1st choice (0+ / 0-)

      However, I haven't heard much about him and would having an AA and a Hispanic seem a little too diverse to the average American voter?

      •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

        That was one of my main worries about Richardson but he's a great choice for Obama.

        My "not diverse" VP choice would be Clark though, if that is an acceptable terminology.

        •  No Richardson (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Too much baggage, the bad kind of baggage.  Not good for women votes, that guy.

          •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

            If you remember out of all the former presidential candidates early on... Richardson was the one with the MOST experience. He also has that executive experience as well.

            I just looked very briefly at Richardson's bio and he has a lot of good points and I just googled Richardson and women and saw one rumour of his advances towards women. I think all of his good baggage outweighs the bad baggage.

            That said, Obama's pick will be great, not perfect.

          •  Richardson was awful on the stump (0+ / 0-)

            People talk about Clark's green-ness in 2004, but he was brilliant compared to Richardson, who seemingly couldn't field a question without the deer-in-headlights thing going on. A shame too because I thought he was going to be a real contender.

            I still think he'd be a helluva lot better than Biden, who I never had much use for.

            You got no fear of the underdog. That's why you will not survive. - Spoon

            by brainiacamor on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:41:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Um, the 'geographical balance' equation (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      went out with Clinton/Gore (AR/TN) in '92, and was further driven into the ground by li'l Bushie choosing Mr. 3 Electoral Votes (WY) in '00. And the whole thing would've gone out the window even earlier, in '80, if Reagan had actually chosen Laxalt (NV) as his running mate.

      Why? Because the US population is more mobile, less fixed to place and regional identity and all of that. And the new generation of voters cares even less...

      Clark wouldn't put shit into play on a regional basis. Nothing. Sorry. Not even Arkansas.

      If anything has been proven by the last 20+ years in Presidential politics, it's that the person at the top of the ticket earns the EV's on their own, and the one in the VP spot plays "bad cop".

      If I'm wrong on the choice -- and I may well be -- it won't be because of geography, but because of temperament/ideology/experience.

      •  Well... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The thing with Obama picking someone from a northern state, a state he'll win anyway, will paint him as a "northern elitist" like they did with Kerry. I know you may not agree but choosing a VP with geographical advantage definitely helps Obama at this time.

        Another thing I'm definitely adamant on is Obama NOT picking another Senator. Right now the senate is hanging by a thread in terms of the majority, and when Obama wins, that takes him out of the Senate. If Obama and a VP who's a Senator wins, that takes two senators out.

        Obama will definitely pick a governor, a congressman, or a well-known political entity who's not a senator.

        I don't know why people are adamant that Obama will pick ANOTHER senator as his running mate. I see a whole slew of negatives with that.

        •  My ideal pick (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          would be Napolitano, because she's a tough, savvy Governor. But she reportedly doesn't want the job. I'd love Richardson for the same reasons, but he's got a little baggage as well.

          I can very definitely see the "not another Senator" argument as well -- if I'm adamant, I guess it's just because that's the color smoke I see coming out the chimney.

          And thanks for the substantive disagreement - something I've missed about dKos lately :)

          •  I might agree with you on Napolitano (0+ / 0-)

            Sure she has the same level of getting states as Richardson. However, I really do think Obama might get hurt by choosing a female other than Hillary for VP.

            I may be wrong.

            This might be a silly argument here but from what I heard: "Obama was believed to have narrowed his list to Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine, Delaware Sen. Joe Biden, Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh and Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius."

            This reminds me of a series episodes of Hollyoaks, a favourite British soap opera (that you might see on BBC America). The major storyline was a devious character named "Claire" who was pushed off a balcony. The publicity surrounding this episode identified 5 possible suspects: Warren, Calvin, Louise, Max, and OB. (Even including photographs of all 5 behind bars)

            It was such a GIANT smokescreen. Everyone speculated that it was Calvin (dropped his phone at the scene) or Warren (since it was his club). It turned out that none of the five were involved in pushing Claire... it was actually Justin, who wasn't even mentioned as a suspect, that pushed Claire and people were like, "I didn't see THAT coming!"

            In the soap opera that we call Politics, I think Obama will well and truly surprise us. I think the "short list" of Kaine, Biden, Bayh, and Sebelius is just a giant smokescreen.

            •  BBCA doesn't show soaps anymore. (0+ / 0-)

              They canceled the only show they had with any brains behind it (EastEnders) several years ago.  It interfered with their master plan to show endless reruns of cooking (Gordon bleedin' Ramsay) and home improvement shows (fuschia paint with palm tree stencils, anyone?) until everyone's eyes glaze over.

              Half-baked ideas for sale - cheap!

              by Steaming Pile on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:08:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  He has to be from the South (0+ / 0-)

      How long since the man who won the Presidency wasn't from the South????

      A LONG time.  And OBama is from the North.

      His VP HAS HAS HAS to be from the South.

      No way its Biden.

      •  Read History (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        How long since the man who won the Presidency wasn't from the South????

        Within my living memory, and that doesn't go back all that far, really. Or are you talking about a Democrat? OK, then, different situation, but 2008 is a very different year.

        If we treat 2008 as being like every other election year, we're screwed. Please don't fall into that trap.

      •  Bush is from Connecticut (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Bush is as much from Texas as me going to the beach means I come from the Atlantic Ocean.

      •  The problem with a VP choice from the south (0+ / 0-)

        versus picking a vp choice from the west is the fact that Obama may not pick up a lot of Southern states. If Kaine is picked, I can only think of two: Virginia and Georgia.

        With Richardson or another VP choice from the West, it puts a possible six in Obama's column. Nevada, New Mexico, and Colorado might be a "for sure" and Texas and Florida may be in play.

        Here's where Obama's political savvy will be shown: Actually choosing someone that may take McCain's home state away from him. Arizona goes into play if Obama chooses Richardson.

        So there you go. Richardson does have the experience but he also has wider influence to add more states to the D column than the four names touted: Kaine (a possible 2 states), Bayh (0 states as Indiana is quite conservative and I don't think Obama will win it), Biden (0 states as Obama will still have Delaware in his column), Sebelius (0 states, I don't really think Kansas will be in the D column but it might surprise me!)

  •  General Clark (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brainiacamor, jfarelli, IQof20

    Is my choice.  End of story.

  •  I don't think Biden gets BO much (0+ / 0-)

    if he could deliver some additional EVs or even an extra 1-2% nationally then I could see it. Otherwise go with someone who can (like Kaine or Bayh) or go with someone who reinforces the change theme. Of course I'm still dreaming of a 2nd Gore vice-presidency.

    Love that "power of the purse!" It looks so nice up there on the mantle (and not the table) next to the "subpoena power."

    by Sacramento Dem on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 12:41:00 AM PDT

  •  Obama's Veep Song (Sorry Tom T. Hall) (0+ / 0-)

    Clark is too rough,
    Evan's too dull
    And Biden has his mouth in gear.
    Oh, this little refrain,
    It will help to explain,
    As a matter of fact,
    I like Gore.

  •  A Sebelius tip? (0+ / 0-)

    Or is this nonsense?

    Someone posted it on my blog, but I don't know nearly enough about domain registrations to know if this is a real clue or not.

    •  Here's my take on the Reg Info (0+ / 0-)

       The domain registration for OBAMASEBELIUS.COM is cloaked through GoDaddy's DomainsByProxy service. That offers no clues. Here is one though:

      Registered through:, Inc. (
      Domain Name: OBAMASEBELIUS.COM
      Created on: 15-Jan-07
      Expires on: 15-Jan-09
      Last Updated on: 16-Jan-08

      OBAMASEBELIUS.COM was registered on Jan. 15, 2007

       I think this makes it unlikely as a domain registration for the Obama team. Obama didn't announce his candidacy until Feb. 10, 2007. None of the other 39 domains registered by Obama for America were registered before last summer.

      This doesn't prove or disprove anything, but I think some enterprising Dem in Kansas was hoping Sebelius could be an eventual VP pick.

  •  Biden is indeed a very bland choice... (0+ / 0-)

    ...but it's feeling like the odds are strongly favoring him being the candidate.  I'm pretty much resigned to it.  And OK with it.  It's not what I wanted, but hardly worth getting depressed over.

    There's almost no candidate Obama could choose that would cost him my vote.  Because even in the worst case scenario of legitimately possible VP picks (Hagel - though I only give that about a 1% chance of happening)... I still have to look at the alternative and say to myself... "God no!!!"

    In the end, Obama's election will trump whatever craptastic feelings I might have about his VP choice.  Because in the end, a VP doesn't have to be that significant to any particular president's legacy or policy-making decisions.  We're so used to Darth Cheney these past 8 years that I think we sometimes forget that Cheney's level of influence is EXTREMELY abnormal based on the 220+ years of VP protocol that preceded him.

    Bottom line - if Obama wins, HE'S the President of the United States.  Not Biden, Bayh, Kaine, Sebelius, Clinton or any other potential VP.  And the likelihood is that the course that his administration will take will be dictated far more by him than any #2 he picks.

    Sebelius would be great, Biden not so much, but whatever.  I'm not gonna spend the next week hand-wringing if it isn't my first choice.  We've got an election to win, and I'm not gonna participate in my party's ability to shoot itself in the foot by getting caught up in every detail that I don't fully agree with.  It's simple pragmatism.

  •  this is what keith olbermann called (6+ / 0-)

    pretending to know what you are talking about.

    markos is talking about how Obama should sell himself to the general public.  

    here's some wisdom about selling something.

    selling yourself in the primary is easy. because it's easy to sell to people like yourself.  you know what these people want.   you want it too.  just sell yourself as what you both want.

    selling yourself in a general election is not easy, because you are selling to people who are not like you.  they do not want what you want.  they want something different.  you have to figure out what it is that they want and then you have to sale them on the idea that what you are selling is close enough to what they want that they should buy it.  you cannot expect them to change what they want to what you want.  you have to convince them to settle for what you are selling.

    Obama doesn't need to sell himself and his VP as some perfect package to everyone.  he needs to convince everyone that he's the closest thing to what they want.  and that McCain is the farthest thing from what they want.  and vice versa for McCain.

    Obama doesn't need another perfect change candidate for VP.  he needs someone who is going to help everyone else feel good about chosing him instead of McCain.  cause they aren't going to pick Obama or McCain because they are getting what they want.   cause they won't be.   cause... they don't know what they want... they just know it isn't Obama or McCain.

    this is my opinion about selling things to people.

    Why so serious? Let's put a smile on that face.

    by AntonBursch on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 01:08:24 AM PDT

  •  Pro-Women's Medical Privacy. (0+ / 0-)

    If the VP selection believes that family medical dcisions are better made by government rather than individuals, women, I will become quite unenthused and likey not give another contribution to Sen. Obama.

    Pain is a part of life. Misery is a choice.

    by smartcookienyc on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:12:50 AM PDT

  •  I like Biden (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, El in New York

    If he is picked, he would SHRED McCain and that's a very good thing.

    Obama: "Because We Won... We Have to Win." 6/6/08

    by Drdemocrat on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:33:17 AM PDT

  •  Chill Out (0+ / 0-)

    I don't know who is going to be picked.   Bayh is the most uninspiring fellow I have ever seen or heard. I don't know why people are so infatuated  with him. Sebelius is  right out there with him.

    I don't know much about Tim Kaine,and I assume most of the voters don't.

    Wes Clark, now that is a possibility. I don't know why he is not seriously considered but surely there has to be a reason.

    Whatever his faults, one thing is sure  about Biden: he  will not put you to sleep with his  speeches. And yes, he can bite. He certainly was the most entertaining fellow during the Democratic debates.

    I don't know who will be picked.   I think that for now we should chill out and enjoy   how Obama's campaign is stewing the Media. It's a thing of beauty.

    Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer. Mark Twain

    by Felix Klein on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 02:33:30 AM PDT

  •  I like Biden (5+ / 0-)

    Always have, even when his name was pretty much mud around here.  Sure, he's voted some questionable ways (so has Obama, IMO, however).  And sure I don't agree with him about everything.  And sure he's got a mouth that just will not quit.  

    But he brings two things to the table that I think Obama desperately needs:  

    1. He's clean.  He's crazy, and he's tainted with bad votes, but other than the plagiarism thing (which rivals the Dean Scream in terms of the degree to which it was blown out-of-proportion, a fact I think nearly universally acknowledged by the Traditional Media these days), he doesn't have any personal ethical baggage he's carrying around with him.  Obama is running clean... Biden helps promote that image.
    1. Biden is a straight-talker.  Waaaay too much of a straight-talker.  But Obama is running a campaign on the idea that people really are smart enough to handle the truth, and there's no one in Congress today who tells the truth like Joe Biden tells it.

    Yeah, he's a bonehead sometimes.  But Biden is good people.  I approve.

  •  Your second to last paragraph is on point... (0+ / 0-)

    I see the pluses to many of these floated names, but the serious downsides as well.  I can overlook Bidens Iraq war vote easier than the sellout of citizens to the banking industry.
     But I've come round to the belief that if the choice helps Obama win, then that is a good choice.

    McCain on bipartisanship: "I'll embarrass a Democrat any chance I get". --Phoenix Times

    by moondancing on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:03:28 AM PDT

  •  I dig Joe biden (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, CarrieNYC

    I have been hoping the V.P. would go to Joe Biden for a long time now.  Joe Biden is the truth times 100.  You can't ask for the better person for the job.  You might not like what you hear, or how you hear it, but its the medicine this country needs.
    You just need to listen to any of his 300 interviews on one of the Sunday morning show's to really appreciate Joe Biden.  I always worried that people would be too freaked out over what he has said for him to be a President, or V.P.  The guy is almost always correct.  He would make a great partner for Obama.  Obama could turn to Biden and either get his take on an issue, or ask him to look into it.  I chose Biden as Obama's V.P. months ago.
    I believe he will land the spot, and I will be cheering the two of them on.  You anti-Joe people should take a look at this guy, and appreciate this hero.

    Help, my country has been hijacked by an idiot cowboy.

    by bookkillrr on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:12:56 AM PDT

  •  Agree 100% (0+ / 0-)

    Senator from MBNA, indeed.

    I said last year that that was the deal-killer for me (re: Biden).  

    Hillary declared war on her own integrity with her AUMF vote.

    Biden declared war on the American consumer with his willingly lashing himself to Big Banking/Credit Card.

    Obama will UNDERMINE himself and much of the force and verve of his campaign by choosing Biden.  

    Those jokes about McCain's "$5million" gaff?  No more can these be told on McCain, not if Biden's on the ticket -- who in recent years has never known a multimillionaire he wouldn't suck-up to.

    I would simply be sickened, just sickened, if Biden were put on the ticket.

    NONE of the choices are "perfect".  I get that.  I get that loud and clear.  But Biden would be horrific.


    "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

    by BenGoshi on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:18:31 AM PDT

  •  Gosh, I wished I could slam (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, africa, imabluemerkin

    all kossacks with a hose of beer, cola and rum altogether and make you all drown dead drunk in a sea of alcohol.

    STFU all of you with VP stuff. The world will go on, even if Frankenstein is haunting Obama through the WH as VP.

    Get a grip.

  •  Good points (0+ / 0-)

    But I'd prefer Biden to Bayh or Kaine.

    Shill, Shill, Shill.

    by Paleo on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:27:34 AM PDT

  •  Late post not fair to easterners (7+ / 0-)

    I woke up to your diary.  Not pleasant.

    I know Joe Biden, I worked on his campaign, I was with him when he was agonizing on his vote on the war.  It was a very difficult decision, and I disagreed with him.  I told him that if our invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq wasn't done exactly right, 5 years from then we would be screwed.

    We are.  I also disagreed with him on the bankruptcy bill.  MBNA is no longer, by the way and all the smaller cc companies have been eaten by the big guys.

    That said, he has two big advantages over others you have mentioned for VP.

    1. he can eviscerate McCain and his VP candidate and all the Repubs who have so screwed up everything they've touched.
    1. he knows (personally) all the foreign leaders, and up and coming foreign leaders, and is very familiar and usually insightful about what is happening in other countries, and not just he AP version.
  •  I cannot vote for a ticket... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ..with a pro-lifer, anti-gay, neocon on it.  That's a non-starter for me as much as I adore Obama.

    I will not be forced to vote for an individual who does not represent my values.  That is not change.

    We liberals have no party of our own.  Neo-conservatives want to control all the political parties.  If I wanted to vote for a neo-con Repub, I'd vote for McCain.  

    I prefer Wes Clark.  I would vote for an Obama/Biden ticket or an Obama/Richardson ticket.  But Bayh and Kaine are deal-breakers for me.

    It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. Alfred Adler

    by Quicksilver2723 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:44:04 AM PDT

    •  I agree except need to clarify (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Kaine is pro-life personally but supports Roe v Wade.

    •  The recurrent MNBA crap (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      is based on ignorance.  I have written about this before on this site, but there are too many people invested in mindlessly repeating it to ever get rid of it.

      Here are a few extra facts that the folks who pronounce him a corrupt politician beholden to credit card companies do not ever mention.  

      The bankruptcy bill was going to pass a GOP congress and be signed by a GOP president.  That was a given.  So the choices are, vote no in a grand noble gesture (see:  Kucinich, Dennis on the SCHIP bill), or vote yes and try to get something for it.  What Biden got is important to women, for whom he has fought his entire Senate career (see:  Violence Against Women Act, which he authored and sponsored).  

      Biden got higher preference status for alimony and child support.  Until that point, deadbeat spouses often used bankruptcy to shed their obligations, leaving their former families destitute.  That changed because of Joe Biden. He also got some provisions to help small businesses.  

      He was not a sponsor of the bill..  He did not write it.  The Repub lobbyists wrote it.  All Biden did was trade his vote for making it slightly less awful.  You could find thousands of other examples of that in his career.  It's called legislating.

      Beyond that, he is the second-to-last in personal wealth of any Senator.  He lives an unflashy life, rides the train home to his wife in Delaware every night, and does not have any skeletons to come rattling out of the closet.  He has a compelling personal story, is brilliant on the stump, and quick on his feet in debates.  Kathleen Sebelius is a fine person, but she cannot hold a candle to him.

  •  You're wrong, Kos (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dansac, bethcf4p, Iberian, 2laneIA, philimus

    I don't think it's right, but the biggest perceived weakness in Obama is of course his foreign policy experience. Every time there's another crisis in the world, and you can be sure there will be several more by November, the commentators blab about how this helps McCain.

    Biden would shore up Obama's bid just as surely as Cheney did for Bush - it  clearly benefitted him significantly (damn I wish I didn't have to compare Biden with Cheney).  Then Obama needs to go on the attack. He needs to remind us of every foreign policy misstep that McCain made on the runup and during the Iraq War. Every dead wrong and brain dead Bush loving comment.  He needs to remind us that WWII only took 5 years, but the fight against Bin Laden seems like it might take forever. He needs to remind us that McCain could likely get us into a war with Iran, together with a draft, and wants to resume the Cold War. He needs to say that he opposed the surge 1) to put pressure on Iraq's government, and 2) that he didn't trust Bush to organize a childrens' birthday party given his track record.

    With Biden by his side as the attack dog, relentlessly pounding this message day after day in the Republican style, just as the Republicans are pounding the ridiculous "elite, presumptuous" theme, it will get through.

    "The only thing we have to fear - is fear itself." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by orrg1 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:48:15 AM PDT

  •  geez kos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I'm already assuming disappointment on Obama's pick, so I won't belabor one bad choice or another.

    Just one more way Obama's let you down.
    Maybe what will make Obama's VP pick seem
    a little sweeter is McSame's VP pick ?

    Then again maybe not, but I'll gaurantee
    McSame's VP will be less like candy.

    Which should make Obama's VP at least
    sweeter in comparison ?

    I know, I know, the lesser of two candies
    and all that.

    the US MSM, enemy of informed democracy

    by XajaX on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:48:53 AM PDT

  •  Sebelius as the gold standard? Surely there's (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dansac, CarrieNYC

    some state's secretary of state that's even more obscure than her.

    Then we'll get that awesome moment where everybody goes "Who?"

    "See the losers in the best bars, meet the winners in the dives" -Neil Young, "Sail Away"

    by danoland on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 03:52:15 AM PDT

  •  seems like Kos hates everyone... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I guess Obama can't pick a good Veep -- everyone of his candidates has already been raked over the coals.

    Someone please explain to me how Bayh isn't a fresh face?

    •  Bayh won't step up (0+ / 0-)

      (living in Indiana and having attended Camp Bayh)

      Bayh can actually light up a room and really dazzle people with a speech, but he's so busy playing it safe and walking the "middle" of all things that he cannot really commit to anything.  He takes no risks, never does what isn't the least likely choice to blow up in his face, and rarely leads.

      Of course, maybe that's what a VP should be.

  •  Oh well, it's Kos' site, but who cares really (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, KFlake

    not just what Kos thinks, but about the VP?  I mean, Bush picked Quayle and won.

  •  New? Change? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Then how about ex-Microsoft employee Bill Gates?  That'd put this sucker to bed right now.

    Did I just get a cold chill?

  •  "wholly separate from .. electioneering" (0+ / 0-)

    Why would anyone engage in THAT sort of calculus?  There's an election to win, first and foremost.

    "For a man who will turn 72 this month, he's a surprisingly immature politician--erratic, impulsive and subject to peer pressure"-Newsweek.

    by Inland on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:10:20 AM PDT

  •  what ever (0+ / 0-)
    Kos I like you man. But whatever, this is utter BS, your full of yourself.

    F you!!!!!!!!. You try running for president.

    You sit and complain, go register some voters.

    You have nothing of value to at to the debate.

    Go back to bed and stay there until the election is over.

    You could have opend a dicussion on how we can help Obama, but this is some cheap BS

    F youuuuuuuuuuu

  •  Biden (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, 2laneIA, oxfdblue

    Markos, I seldom disagree with you, but, Biden knows Foreign Policy like the back of his hand but more importantly HE IS AN ATTACK DOG! Put him on the trail and he will rip Bush and McSame until the cows come home. I'm seeing a lot of negative karma on progressive websites, lets lighten up, kick some ass, and roll in November.

  •  Markos that's some of the most childish (9+ / 0-)

    analysis I've heard out of you yet.

    You've become a CHANGE PURIST.

    I'm not crazy about Biden either.  But dismissing him BECAUSE he's well read on foreign affairs on the count that it draws attention to Obama's flaws is just perfect garbage.

    You're basically saying, "I had a dream ... and it's being ruined by all this Washington talk."

    I don't know what some of you change mongers are expecting.  The Brat Pack?

    I think we would have heard if Washington DC had been completely redecorated by NOW!

  •  Kerry???? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, Iberian

    Come on Kos. Kerry? That would be the death nail in the democratic coffin. Daschle??? Milk toast Daschle? Snore.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Biden isn't my first choice. But he does bring one thing to the table. He's a pit bull. He'll be good for smacking down (finally) some of the idiotic, insane and asinine republican comments. Yes, he made a mistake about Iraq. But he's in good company there.

    I wanted Wes Clark. That, apparently is not going to happen.

    The world is weary of statesmen whom democracy has degraded into politicians.

    by JenD on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 04:38:40 AM PDT

  •  I don't like (0+ / 0-)

    how it seemed like he was "bragging" that he was from a slave state.

    Somehow, that statement always irked me, since he was campaigning in South Carolina (if I can recall correctly).

    Perhaps he's not the one to be the running mate for the first African American nominee in history.

  •  message of change? (0+ / 0-)

    Oh so that's what the FISA vote was all about then. or the moves to the right.

    "change". "hope".

  •  "Change" (0+ / 0-)

    At a foundational level, kos is right: the Obama campaign is about change, so we don't need someone on the ticket who represents status quo thinking. That is why Clinton would be a bad idea (she represents the 20th-century wing of the party, and Mark Penn's tactics don't work anymore), and also why those of you who keep talking about the "VP as attack dog" also miss the boat. Obama is running an entirely different KIND of campaign, and he needs an entirely different KIND of VP. I don't know who that is, but I do know that the usual way of analyzing the choice needs to change. And that includes kos.

  •  Hope it's none of the above. (0+ / 0-)

    I hope the VP is none of the people being mentioned. Hope it's a Jim Webb despite the fact that he took his name out. What does that mean? Nothing. A head fake. A Mark Warner. Someone I've not heard before. Biden? Secretary of State!

  •  You're being ridiculously hard on Obama. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, philimus

    I've thought Biden would be a good choice for months. Obama already has "change" going for him. I think the main thing people are concerned about with the VP is whether they are ready to step in if the President goes down.

    Do you really think people are going to feel comfortable with President Sebelius? Kerry brings up too many memories of 2004 and he's got baggage. Daschle just seems like a big weenie.

    Biden has been around but I don't think many people know much about him. He's a "strong" type of guy that can go on the attach for Obama and carry himself like a future President. No choice is going to be perfect, but I think you're underestimating how someone "fresh" and "unknown" could hurt his chances.

  •  Kerry?!? Are you kidding me?!? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bethcf4p, Iberian, 2laneIA, brainiacamor

    Jesus wept. Bama'd have to be nuts. And I'll tell you why Biden's the man, Kos and Kossacks: 2008 ain't about delivering states, believe it or not. First and foremost it's about countering the media and the pundits, who control the dialogue. Biden comes off great on the teev, knowledgable, friendly where applicable and capable of spouting off great heaping planetoids of molten magma at whoever plays unfair. Cap it off with the fact that he can school anybody, anywhere on what's going on in the trouble spots on the planet and Biden is, in fact, the man.

    Kerry. Yeesh. Do you really want that?

    "If that's what Fallujah is, then what's that band with all the Mexican kids in it?"

    by iSenseChange on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 06:06:36 AM PDT

    •  Right (0+ / 0-)

      Kerry or Daschle over Biden, I just don't get the rationalization of that. Kerry should be in a vault until and Daschle lost his own seat.

      Biden has his negatives but he is as good as McCain in the TV dog and pony circuit, he has some gravitas and he is funny.

      The Change thing has been put to a side by the Obama campaign to begin with. They should play back to that some more, but the VP nominee is not going to be a great modification of the theme.

    •  great point (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not buying, but you make a great point about the media. And they don't totally hate Biden.

      But they will paint him from now until Nov as The Little Plagiarist Who Couldn't. Just sayin'. They like him now. Will they like him when he might assist Obama into the Presidency? Not so sure.

      You got no fear of the underdog. That's why you will not survive. - Spoon

      by brainiacamor on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 10:28:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why does Kos care whom Obama picks for VP? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    After all, he doesn't support Obama for president. Why is he even bothering to comment on this? Who, in Kos's view, should Obama pick? Cynthia McKinney?

  •  Sebelius?!? (0+ / 0-)

    She's a dishrag of a campaigner. Ferraro II.

  •  Dodd (0+ / 0-)

    is the only veep choice both I and my father like.

    He thinks Biden's a hack who will say anything (but so was Carter, according to Hunter Thompson).

    It would be interesting if both VPs were from CT.

    "We were using techniques the Koreans had specifically developed in order to prepare prisoners for show trials." -- p. 278, Spook Country, William Gibson

    by agoldnyc on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:05:17 AM PDT

  •  And if Obama picks someone inexperienced... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ...then "inexperienced" will be the word of the day.

    I mean, who the hell is Sebelius?

    On top of that, it's really lame to make several comments about how the veep pick doesn't matter and then suddenly claim that it's INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT and MIGHT HIGHLIGHT OBAMA'S NEGATIVES.

    Just make the announcement so I can watch the howls of betrayal all over the blogosphere and move on.

    Obama/Clinton 2008. The likeliest ticket to win that won't happen, but it was nice to think about while it lasted.

    by alkatt on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 07:20:56 AM PDT

  •  Bayh will cost... (0+ / 0-)

    ...guaranfreakintee... cost the Dems a Senate seat. Y'all fans of this guy think those things grow on trees?

  •  Howard Dean? (0+ / 0-)

    I'm still hoping!

  •  Seriously... (0+ / 0-)

    The credit card industry is a huge constiuency....

  •  I have a problem with Senator "Capital One" B.n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  Once the pick is announced, STFU! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    imabluemerkin, philimus

    This hand-wringing is beyond annoying. We have an incredibly intelligent, articulate, politically savvy nominee. I trust that he will make the right choice.

    Second-guessing and bitching about it does not serve the progressive cause. My focus is on getting Obama/??? elected -- as well as an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress. I hope that once the announcement is made, this community quits its bellyaching and unites behind the most promising candidate we've had in years.

  •  Claire (0+ / 0-)

    McCaskill! Would love to see her be the pick. She won't, but it would be cool.
    We do really need someone different. Having a more traditional choice -- and here I am defining traditional broadly to denote WHITE MALE -- would be disappointing and detract from the fresh energy that Obama represents. I think the safest bet then would be to choose a female VP. Sebelius would be nice to see, but there's just something really appealing about McCaskill. Having lived in the midwest and the south for many years, and now the northeast (back home), I can suggest that voters in the heartland and southern red states could be comfortable with McCaskill.

    Biden is fun to watch but his big mouth would drown out Obama's message pretty quickly. Plus by simple virture of his home state he would alienate lots and lots of red staters.

  •  I'm still holding my breath... (0+ / 0-)

    ..for Wesley Clark

    Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane. -Philip K. Dick- Economic Left/Right: -4.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.97

    by Ubik on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:07:55 AM PDT

  •  Kos you are forgetting the past 6 months (0+ / 0-)

    One member of congress has authored most of the big bills that have gotten passed in the past 6 months and Biden has been praised by both sides to get the stuff done...

    so your issue with credit card companies doesn't acknowledge a lot about Biden...and his effectiveness during a time where the body itself isn't very effective ...

    and when you have a new guy trying to change stuff...sorry that's gold.

    Or not to mention his articles in April and Last week clearly showing he understands the Russia Georgia conflict better than anyone.  As seen by the fact that all the surrogates on both sides were quoting ideas from his articles.

  •  Here is the spin from Ace of Spades' Jack M. (0+ / 0-)

    Basically, he says that the more people see Obama, the less they like him, and therefore Obama is thinking of picking Biden because Biden is a publicity seeking press whore who will try to hog the limelight, thereby allowing the scruitiny to get off of Obama.

    "Capitalism is the only system that can make freedom, individuality, and the pursuit of values possible in practice." - Ayn Rand

    by headhunt23 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:15:10 AM PDT

  •  No Drama VP (0+ / 0-)

    It seems obvious the guys who run a "no drama" campaign will want a drama proof VP.

    That leaves Clinton and Edwards out.

    Probably Kerry out too, and Clark (my choice). Weber probably out too.

    A drama proof VP, who doesn't overshadow Obama ? Tough call!

    the (PNAC) crazies have done everyone a favor. Instead of ushering in a new world built in their image, they have destroyed the old world built in their image

    by lostmypassword on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 08:31:17 AM PDT

  •  Experience Doesn't Mean Change (0+ / 0-)

    Okay, yes Biden voted for the bankruptcy bill. Yes, it was a low blow and a disgusting vote. I think I can live with him voting wrong on one bill.

    Yes, he voted for the Iraq War. It wasn't as much of a "yes" vote as others though - he was proposing ways to go around it, and warning that we needed more troops, that the proposed cost wasn't realistic, we needed more allies, it would be much longer than they were saying - all of which turned out to be true. So, I don't really hold it against him.

    Also, kos, you should know better. Just because someone has been in Washington for decades doesn't mean that they're not going to bring "change". You don't have to be a Senator of 4 years with no experience to bring "change" to this country. Joe Biden would make a great president - I'd say better than Obama - and he would be a wonderful choice for vice president. He's well respected throughout the world, he knows how to play the game, he doesn't take shit from the right, he'll fight back (but without lies and relying on only negative campaigning like McCain), he knows how Washington works, and he's a great senator at that. He's had one bad vote in the past that I don't agree with, and I've read some articles that justify his vote for it. I think we can all live with that one vote.

    Joe Biden is a great senator, a great person, and would be a great candidate. We're not going to get "Mr. Perfect" - Sebelius is so extremely boring that I wouldn't make it through her debate. I couldn't make it through her SOTU rebuttal. John Edwards disproved that V.P. = state won.

    Biden is Catholic, a blue collar man - born in PA, and would be popular with many of the demographics we need to win. He's well respected with the country, and can bring in a lot of people who are worried that the Republicans are the only strong ones on FP - which we know to be false, but Biden is a trusted voice on the issue and would provide reassaurance for those idiots.

  •  As Mick Jagger said, "You Can't Alway Get ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drew8970, imabluemerkin

    ... What You Want." Too bad. Deal with it, kos. I'd prefer Clark or someone other than Biden, too, but "the senator from MBNA" (as you like to call him) isn't that horrible either. Let's face it. Most of the people here are going to be disappointed with whoever Obama picks because he's running a centrist campaign because he wants to get elected.

    As much as I disagree with a lot of what Obama is doing, I must say he seems to understand the dynamics of what is necessary to get votes more than many of us (myself included).

  •  I think this election is important... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    imabluemerkin, philimus

    REALLY important. Take a look at the balance on the Supreme Court if you don't believe me. So I am going to ENTHUSIATICALLY support Obama and his running mate no matter what. If I don't like whoever it is I might work like heck to defeat him in the primaries eight years from now, but all bets are on the presidency now, we MUST elect Obama. Everything else is just trivial. If the Obama team thinks Biden, or Bayh, or whomever is the most likely to help Obama get elected I am 100% behind it.

  •  Biden would be an excellent choice... (0+ / 0-)

    He'll make a great 'pit bull' during the campaign.  His crack on Giuliani during the primaries ('noun, verb and 9/11') made Rudy a laughingstock.  On foreign policy, he can make McSame look amateurish.  Go get 'em, Joe!

    "A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs, who, however, has never learned to walk forward." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    by bayman on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 09:07:24 AM PDT

  •  What happened to Jack Reed? (0+ / 0-)

    He's my favorite.  He's smart and a good speaker, he voted against the war and against FISA.  He went to West Point and is a veteran with a distinguised military career.  He's also an attorney.  He would be a fantastic choice.

  •  Daschle? Kerry? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    El in New York

    Markos, you're way off on this...Kerry is already a "loser" in the mind of Americans and Daschle is a skinny wimp who had his ass kicked by the Republicans. I really hope Obama stays away from those guys, he needs someone with some cajones.

  •  Biden is Pathetic! He's a Whore! (0+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Hidden by:
    Delaware Dem

    I have seen Joe Biden speaking out of both sides of his mouth for years. I cant understand how Obama can really call this selection an example of change. One has to wonder is Obama is indeed paranoid about his lack of foreign policy experience. Does this wipe away all of the major blunders Biden has made in his career? Perhaps its a distraction from Obamas immaturity that Biden will provide. If this is his choice he is hurting himself more than he understands particularly now with the economic problems most Americans are having. With A knight of the Banks round table by his side Obama looks extremely calloused.
    "In my 40 years of dealing with Congress on bankruptcy legislation, this is the worst I've ever seen. It's the kind of bill that makes you want to point your fingers at individual congressmen and say, 'Shame on you.'"

    - the late Prof. Lawrence P. King, NYU Law School, concerning the
    new bankruptcy law bill then being considered by the United States Senate; quoted in The New
    York Times, March 14, 2001

    "major beneficiaries of financial and credit companies' generosity included Senators Joe Biden and Tom Carper from Delaware, both Democrats, and both representing the notoriously bank-friendly state. MBNA's political action committee (PAC), its subsidiaries, and associated individuals donated a total of $147,700 to Biden during the cycle spanning 1999-2004, dwarfing his other contributors."

    "I've never seen a bill that was so one-sided. The cries, claims and concerns of vulnerable Americans who have suffered a financial emergency have been drowned out by the political might of the credit card industry."

    former Dem. Senator Howard M. Metzenbaum now head of Consumer Federation of America

    "Back in 1988 Mr. Biden was running against Michael Dukakis for the Democratic presidential nomination. But then it came to light that Mr. Biden was lifting lines from the speeches of Robert Kennedy, Hubert Humphrey, and others.

    Where I come from, folks call that plagiarism. That, along with other previous peccadilloes, drove Biden from the nomination race."

    Senator Biden's Biggest Lie
    June 29, 2005
    by Carey Roberts

  •  The Best Choice for VP (0+ / 0-)

    I don't have a quarrel with having Biden on the ticket because he has good experience and some sense. He doesn't excite me, but I wouldn't be offended.

    However, the only really good choice for VP is Wesley Clark, as I pointed out here. I know that the common wisdom is that Clark is off the list, and blah, blah, blah. That doesn't mean that the logic or the facts change.

    Clark is the one person who could result in movement to the Democratic side all across the country with his appeal to military families. Just a small shift in the percentages could put borderline states in the D category. So, nominating Clark is really a fifty-state strategy.

    But, beyond that, when Obama takes office he will need to deal with the lopsided influence of the Pentagon and its suppliers in Washington. With the current forces in place, we are destined to continue to overspend on the military for years to come, swamping the economy in debt, weakening the dollar, and wiping out our consumer manufacturing capacity. We cannot afford to continue to spend as much for our military as the rest of the world combined.

    In order to address this issue, Obama will need someone very close to him in the administration who understands what the military is doing and what it should be doing.

    Anyone who's read Clark's books knows that he has a very sensible take on how the U.S. should work with other countries for security. We need to move to a multilateral security stance and reduce our country's internal spending on the military.

    The ideal situation would be to have Clark become VP and for Obama to give him a charter to restructure the relationship of the country to our military-industrial complex to reduce spending overall, pull in our close partners into joint initiatives, extract our military from unilateral engagements, work with other countries on real problems (such as Darfur), and generally clean up the situation. We need to put a cap on military spending. I've suggested the 5X cap, which would limit spending to the combined spending of the next five largest military budgets in the world. The exact number doesn't matter so much as the policy of reforming our relationship with the military to make it practical for the 21st century.

    Obama will need to handle this problem in the early days of his administration. He can suggest any nominee he wants for VP, but the problem won't go away. Clark is ideally informed and has the best experience of any viable candidate to step in and help Obama deal successfully with this problem. Others, not so much.

    Therefore, nominating Clark would be a win for all of us. It would signal that Obama has the right strategy for dealing with the problem, giving it the weight it deserves and moving to put people in place who can deal with it. Anyone else would signal that he missed the boat, and that would be very disappointing. It would indicate that Obama might struggle with getting his policies in place during his first term. It would indicate that he isn't planning to deal with this critical problem, that he doesn't plan to make the structural changes we need for real change. It would indicate a kind of shortsightedness about the VP pick, looking more at the immediate political gains than at the long-term policy questions.

    That's how I'm evaluating the VP pick.

  •   Insider: Virginia Gov. held line of succession m (0+ / 0-)

    Insider: Virginia Gov. held line of succession meeting

  •  I'm with you, Kos. (0+ / 0-)

    I think I'd rather have Hillary Clinton than the Senator from Bank of America.  I'm not sure what the advantage of a "new face" in the VP slot would be, though.  I would think picking someone with connections would be a good thing.  After all, that person doesn't get to be the President, nor will that person get to be the kind of Vice President Dick Cheney is now.  So would I accept someone like Hillary Clinton?  Sure.  Why not?  At least then we wouldn't have to listen to any more garbage about PUMAs or whether somebody's grandma who voted for Clinton will support the ticket.  But then she'd better do her damn job and slice the McCain/Whoever ticket to lunchmeat.

    Half-baked ideas for sale - cheap!

    by Steaming Pile on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 11:53:05 AM PDT

  •  Michelle for VP (0+ / 0-)

    Obama should just make Michelle his VP candidate. That gets a woman in the White House... and as a bonus, she'll be by his side at all times... doesn't need much background checks either... Obama knows her insider/out! :)

  •  On the other hand, Biden is (0+ / 0-)

    a "clean articulate" white guy. Sorry, couldn't resist it.

  •  biden status quo (0+ / 0-)

    picking biden confirms obama has become status-quo and part of the problem and not the solution

  •  Kos is wrong, and I'm right... (0+ / 0-) will be Biden, as I've been saying for weeks.

    Obama/Biden 08! (Well I can wish can't I?)

    by BraveheartDC on Tue Aug 19, 2008 at 05:20:16 PM PDT

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